Handel: Messiah Oratorio

[Coopmv]

Thanks all for your comments and thoughts. After looking more at this thread and considering, I thought I may go for this next. The sound samples I've heard on iTunes sounds fantastic.

I just added this set to my Handel Messiah collection a few months ago.  While I think the performance is quite refreshing, it is still not the number one version I would go to ...

[Leo K.]

It's really hard to decide! The Suzuki sounds wonderful too. Interesting voices in that one.

[Leo K.]

Thanks all for your comments and thoughts. After looking more at this thread and considering, I thought I may go for this next. The sound samples I've heard on iTunes sounds fantastic.

Indeed, this is a wonderul recording! It took me a year to hear it (since I mentioned it before in this thread), but I'm enjoying it immensely now. McCreesh is still my favorite, but this account is refreshing indeed.

[71 dB]

Nobody seems to have mentioned Solti's version on Decca with I like very much.
The Scholars Baroque Ensembles's take on Naxos is fine too.

[zamyrabyrd]

Recently on Mezzo TV was "Haendel, le Messie" Academy of Ancient Music Orch. S. Cleobury, directeur.
The tenor was excellent - he sort of drew you into the oratorio. Some of the tempi were superfast - how the choir managed them is a wonder. I liked though "And the Glory of the Lord" done in an upbeat, almost dancing manner rather than some of the heavier, stodgy versions that one might hear, especially from amateur choirs.

ZB

[knight66]

It surprises me when less able choirs sing The Messiah. Very often some of the more tricky choruses are cut. I think it is one of the most difficult pieces I have sung; as far as technique is concerned. If the choir is just not up to it, as you suggest, that wonderful lightness has to be plodded through and instead we listen to the heaving of sacks of potatoes.

Mike

[zamyrabyrd]

It surprises me when less able choirs sing The Messiah. Very often some of the more tricky choruses are cut. I think it is one of the most difficult pieces I have sung; as far as technique is concerned. If the choir is just not up to it, as you suggest, that wonderful lightness has to be plodded through and instead we listen to the heaving of sacks of potatoes.

Mike

Ha, ha, our local choir wants to attempt that for next Christmas. At least we have a whole year but personally doubt that we (they) can come up to 3/4 of the tempi Cleobury took.

We just got through the Magnificat of Pergolesi/Durante with a bit part for me as part of the Baroque Festival here. I like this version very much and used it while practicing with headphones on my ears and the score in my lap.  Nice picture, too.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6faxg1UlFM

ZB

[Coopmv]

I missed the last interesting live performance that took place a half-dozen years back when Neville Marrriner actually conducted the Messiah Oratorio in NYC.  IIRC, it was at the Riverside Church in Manhattan.  But the orchestra and chorus were no big-name.

[Marc]

It surprises me when less able choirs sing The Messiah. Very often some of the more tricky choruses are cut. I think it is one of the most difficult pieces I have sung; as far as technique is concerned. If the choir is just not up to it, as you suggest, that wonderful lightness has to be plodded through and instead we listen to the heaving of sacks of potatoes.

Thanks to less able amateur choirs I learned, during my teenage years, to love and admire Bach's Passions and Weihnachts-Oratorium, Händel's Messiah and Haydn's Schöpfung.

I recall an interview with Barenboim in some Dutch music magazine in the 90s, in which he stated that amateur music making is something like the heartbeat and lungs of music.
As an interpreter, Barenboim isn't my fave musician, but with this statement he was dead right IMO. Speaking of dead: without all those amateurs loving, making and performing music, the world of music will be dead. Probably sooner than you think.

[Coopmv]

Thanks to less able amateur choirs I learned, during my teenage years, to love and admire Bach's Passions and Weihnachts-Oratorium, Händel's Messiah and Haydn's Schöpfung.

I recall an interview with Barenboim in some Dutch music magazine in the 90s, in which he stated that amateur music making is something like the heartbeat and lungs of music.
As an interpreter, Barenboim isn't my fave musician, but with this statement he was dead right IMO. Speaking of dead: without all those amateurs loving, making and performing music, the world of music will be dead. Probably sooner than you think.

But are there many truly professional choirs out there, i.e. where members do not have any other jobs?  I thought most members of the Netherlands Bach Society have their regular day jobs ...

[knight66]

Mark, I have been a member of quite a number of choirs, some excellent and with very high standards; others with a policy of turning no one away. I agree that there is a lot of pleasure to be had at all levels. There is much wonderful Handel that does not get an airing and it would provide more chances to the kind of choir that does not audition to make a good fist than the near ubiquitous Messiah. None of the great Bach pieces provide the technical difficulties for the choir as does Messiah. I refer here to physically getting round the notes rather than reading the music.

By all means, people ought not to deny themselves The Messiah, but much other music stands a better chance of an adequate performance.

Mike

[Marc]

[....] I agree that there is a lot of pleasure to be had at all levels. [....]

Indeed. Generally, that's what I meant to say.

[....] By all means, people ought not to deny themselves The Messiah, but much other music stands a better chance of an adequate performance.

As I myself have sung in several choirs (of various quality) too, I realized there's so much 'easier' stuff to throw yourself at.
But hey, Messiah is a popular work, so .... let's just give them the chance!
The best thing is probably to save your good money and go to a full-pro performance.

[knight66]

Fairly recently I was involved in a four choirs together performance of the Verdi Requiem. This was for choirs that did not audition and some funding was obtained on that basis. We sang it in a local abbey. The soloists were very good, as was the orchestra and the effect on the choral singers was striking. Everyone got a terrific amount of pleasure from it. It was not utterly top notch in the choral dept.....I stood behind some bases who stole the alto and soprano lines at various points; but it was terrifically worthwhile and I guess I am writing against my earlier comments.

I do agree Marc that it is important for people to be able to attempt these killer pieces, it is not so much about managing expectations but inspiring the singers to do better than they thought that they could. But where inspiration is lacking, folk need to look at the less demanding, but still wonderful pieces.

Mike

[Leo K.]

I am really impressed upon hearing Scherchen's 2nd account of Messiah for the first time. Just finished with Part One. I am interested in what Dan Davis said of this recording in his review for Classics Today, "In other words, this isn't ye olde comfortable, plush Messiah of yore. It's a modernist Messiah for our times, with the trappings of historical accuracy replaced by deep emotional expression."

To contrast with Scherchen, I'd like to explore "plush Messiah of Yore" performances of this work to contrast with Scherchen's amazing introspective take.

[Que]

[...] Scherchen's amazing introspective take.

I'm guessing "introspective" here means: very slow  , or is there more to it?

Q

[Coopmv]

I'm guessing "introspective" here means: very slow  , or is there more to it?

Q

Is this in the style of Sir Malcolm Sargent's Handel Messiah, which I did not particularly enjoy?   

[Leo K.]

I'm guessing "introspective" here means: very slow  , or is there more to it?

Q

Inevitably, slow usually equals intropective.  It is said that this recording reflects Handel scholarship circa 1959, but of course Scherchen picks and chooses to build his grand marble monument, which yes is very slow at times. "The trumpet shall sound" crosses the finish line at 9:42. "I know that my Redeemer liveth" redeems itself in 10:28, and "He was despised" clocks in at a remarkable 14:51! But "And He shall purify" goes by like mad, so it goes.  Whatever works!

[Jo498]

There is much wonderful Handel that does not get an airing and it would provide more chances to the kind of choir that does not audition to make a good fist than the near ubiquitous Messiah. None of the great Bach pieces provide the technical difficulties for the choir as does Messiah. I refer here to physically getting round the notes rather than reading the music.

This is interesting; I would have thought that the b minor mass was far more difficult for a choir than Messiah. I once heard a performance of Messiah with a young laypeople choir that was decent but they had "His yoke is easy" and maybe another chorus sung by the (professional) soloists.

[Turner]

Karl Richter´s DG recording in English (there´s also one in German), apparently not mentioned here, has always been my favourite.

BTW, both Scherchens are interesting, but the singing is generally of very varied quality.

[Jo498]

Richter's early 1960s German recording is negligible, except maybe for ardent fans of one of the singers. I gave this to my mother for Xmas several years ago but was really disappointed. It's plodding, "four square" and the soloist are not all that great despite having famous names.

But I must assume that the somewhat later English language recording is much better.

I have heard parts or most of one of Scherchen's (I guess the earlier one) and the sound is bad, the soloists variable and the whole thing extremely excentric. While I love some of Scherchen's excentric but highly expressive recordings (St. Matthew, Art of Fugue, Handel op.6 concerti, Mahler's 2nd, Mozart's Requiem and more) I was not convinced by what I heard of his Messiah.

There are to many recordings around for me to have listened to all of the famous ones. I have about seven or so on the shelf and heard a few more. My favorites are probably McCreesh for HIP and the 1960s Colin Davis because I basically got to know the piece with that one and it still holds up very well.