Favorite French Composers Poll

[71 dB]

If you have anything "special" by Taneyev you'd like to point out, I'm all ears.

Taneyev is not one of the "accepted" masters because his music is too complicated for masses. That's why his teacher (Tchaikovsky) and pupil (Rachmaninov) are so popular - easiear music. Try Taneyev's chamber music and you'll be blown away. Try his Oresteya Overture or Symphonies. Let's see if you still care about Debussy after that. 

As for me, well - look, I'm close to 60 years old. I may have 20-30 years left, I may have 5 or 10. I want to spend that time with composers who matter. Unless I find good reason to think "Dittersdorf, Bruhns, Weckmann, Fasch, Graupner, Hasse, Taneyev" et al. are pursuing, I'll stick with Beethoven, Debussy, Bach, and Brahms.

With all respect the older generation sticks with Beethoven and few other composers. We younger people (well, I just turned 37) are spoiled with new exciting composers and works! There are new labels like CPO bringing this music in to the light! We also have the "old masters". I can buy Debussy anyday but I can explore so many other composers! It's cornucopia! I'm lucky!

[some guy]

Neglected figures are generally neglected for good reason.

Yeah, because the neglecters are stupid or scared or snobbish or right. "Right," notice, is only ONE of the possible reasons.

And if the conversation is about more recent work, by living composers, then the whole sifting activity (which is not as benign as Sforzando thinks it is) cannot have hardly even gotten going. Why, for instance has the enormously talented Tarnopolski had only three CDs so far, two of which are impossible to find, one of which is enormously difficult to find? Rihm, on the other hand, is an also talented composer who isn't neglected at all. Performed and recorded all the time.

Age, by the way, has really nothing do with anything. Sforzando is 60 and 71 db is 37. That's nice, but hardly germane. Many "new" music composers are so old they've already died (Cage, Tudor, Stockhausen, Ferrari), many are older than Sforzando (Huber, Dhomont, Bokanowski, Ferreyra), some are around my age (Rihm, Czernowin, Hosokawa, Hobbs--Hobbs is as old as Sforzando).

I spend a good deal of time listening to music. Most of it, in fact. I'm almost 56. I have about the same time left as Sforzando. I don't have time to waste with listening only to music I already know or to music that "knowledgeable listeners" have already vetted for me! Yikes!

I think I'll go listen to some GOL. (They're laptop quartet in Paris, which is in France, so that my post is still "on topic" so to speak!!)

And let's not have any more respect, 71 db!!!

[Don]

Change Taneyev to any 2nd or 3rd rater of your choice. (And if you have anything "special" by Taneyev you'd like to point out, I'm all ears.)

No problem.  Check out Taneyev's Piano Trio Op. 22 and Piano Quartet Op. 20 - both are stunning works and wonderfully realized by the Barbican Trio on Dutton Labs.  Personally, I don't see how anyone could be intimate with Taneyev's output and consider him less than 1st rate.

[Josquin des Prez]

No problem.  Check out Taneyev's Piano Trio Op. 22 and Piano Quartet Op. 20 - both are stunning works and wonderfully realized by the Barbican Trio on Dutton Labs.  Personally, I don't see how anyone could be intimate with Taneyev's output and consider him less than 1st rate.

Because first rate composers are not only stunning and wonderfully realized, they are also unique. Taneyev wasn't. Besides, there's much more to music then counterpoint (and this is coming from somebody who cannot live without polyphony). Harmonically, Debussy is on another universe compared to Taneyev, which is probably why he is remembered more.

[Don]

Often yes but not always.

Debussy's La Mer might be superlative for you but maybe I have different taste? I find Debussy lacking rhythm while I adore Taneyev's skill in counterpoint.

From my perspective, there's no point listening to Debussy if you insist on some kind of consistent rhythmic energy or pulse; that's simply not what Debussy's music is about.  I do agree about the value of Taneyev's counterpoint; he was an "ace" when it comes to writing counterpoint.

[Don]

Taneyev is not one of the "accepted" masters because his music is too complicated for masses. That's why his teacher (Tchaikovsky) and pupil (Rachmaninov) are so popular - easiear music. Try Taneyev's chamber music and you'll be blown away. Try his Oresteya Overture or Symphonies. Let's see if you still care about Debussy after that. 

Although I love Taneyev's music dearly, I'm not buying the argument that he is not an accepted master because his music is complicated.  Let's remember that counterpoint is not universally loved, and many consider it a highly academic venture devoid of emotional investment.  Obviously, I consider this erroneous, but composers like Taneyev and Reger are often knocked for their contrapuntal tendencies.

[Don]

Age, by the way, has really nothing do with anything. Sforzando is 60 and 71 db is 37. That's nice, but hardly germane.

Agreed.  I'm also 60 and think that I become more interested in the "obscure" as I get older.  The established master composers are all wonderful, but there's plenty of outstanding music that comes from other composers.

[Handel]

Rameau

But I like also

Lully
Delalande
Charpentier
Boulogne

[Don]

Because first rate composers are not only stunning and wonderfully realized, they are also unique. Taneyev wasn't. Besides, there's much more to music then counterpoint (and this is coming from somebody who cannot live without polyphony). Harmonically, Debussy is on another universe compared to Taneyev, which is probably why he is remembered more.

I don't believe that a composer must be unique to be 1st rate.  Further, why do you feel that Taneyev's only attribute is counterpoint?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Debussy's La Mer might be superlative for you but maybe I have different taste? I find Debussy lacking rhythm while I adore Taneyev's skill in counterpoint. I don't completely trust individuals before me. I trust myself. I don't deny experiences from myself if I don't even know they exist. Sorry, but I find you patronising and arrogant trying to deny my enjoyment of music.

I would say the arrogance is more on your side by so cavalierly dismissing a composer on the level of Debussy, whose work you clearly don't know. As for your statement, "I find Debussy lacking rhythm," it is musically speaking nonsense. Rhythm is the aspect of music concerned with the durations of notes. All music by definition has rhythm.

[Don]

Just one more thing about Taneyev.  He doesn't sound special at all in the new Naxos disc from the Carpe Diem Quartet that has two of his string quartets.  Anyone thinking of getting this disc would be wise to switch to the Taneyev Quartet cycle of the string quartets on the Northern Flowers label.

[The new erato]

Just one more thing about Taneyev.  He doesn't sound special at all in the new Naxos disc from the Carpe Diem Quartet that has two of his string quartets.  Anyone thinking of getting this disc would be wise to switch to the Taneyev Quartet cycle of the string quartets on the Northern Flowers label.

If only some of my regular suppliers could supply me with this label (I usually shop from the UK).

[(poco) Sforzando]

Agreed.  I'm also 60 and think that I become more interested in the "obscure" as I get older.  The established master composers are all wonderful, but there's plenty of outstanding music that comes from other composers.

I don't disagree with this at all. If I did, I wouldn't have asked you for information about Taneyev. My problem with Mr. 71 dB is that he seems deliberately to be guided by an attitude of resentment towards the established canon:

Taneyev is not one of the "accepted" masters because his music is too complicated for masses. That's why his teacher (Tchaikovsky) and pupil (Rachmaninov) are so popular - easiear music. Try Taneyev's chamber music and you'll be blown away. Try his Oresteya Overture or Symphonies. Let's see if you still care about Debussy after that.

The attitude here seems to me not one of Don's very rational, "The established master composers are all wonderful, but there's plenty of outstanding music that comes from other composers," but rather one of "The established canon is a bunch of crap, all recognized master composers are overrated, all unrecognized composers are undeservedly neglected, and unlike all you brainwashed sheep I'm the only one who gets it straight."

[The new erato]

The attitude here seems to me not one of Don's very rational, "The established master composers are all wonderful, but there's plenty of outstanding music that comes from other composers," but rather one of "The established canon is a bunch of crap, all recognized master composers are overrated, all unrecognized composers are undeservedly neglected, and unlike all you brainwashed sheep I'm the only one who gets it straight."

Count me in among the unwashed masses! I share Dons attitude BTW though not always his tastes (Schubert eg).

[Don]

The attitude here seems to me not one of Don's very rational, "The established master composers are all wonderful, but there's plenty of outstanding music that comes from other composers," but rather one of "The established canon is a bunch of crap, all recognized master composers are overrated, all unrecognized composers are undeservedly neglected, and unlike all you brainwashed sheep I'm the only one who gets it straight."

Seems to me that 71 dB, along with a very limited number of other board members, get a big kick out of bucking the "established" composers, labels, artists, etc.  This process might make them feel distinctive, but I think the price one pays is far too great.

[Don]

Count me in among the unwashed masses! I share Dons attitude BTW though not always his tastes (Schubert eg).

I assume that erato considers me to be rather anti-Schubert.  However, that's not quite accurate.  I own about 150 Schubert recordings and love his solo piano works, string quartets, piano trios and even his operas.  But there is a little voice in my head that tells me Schubert is rather long-winded and deserves the minus points I've been giving him in the silly "composer competition" threads.  And let's keep in mind that the composers on those competition lists are generally the top of the mountain; somebody has to get a minus count.

[Don]

If only some of my regular suppliers could supply me with this label (I usually shop from the UK).

Is the Russian DVD website available to you?  I think those Northern Flowers discs are all there.  I acquired my set through ArkivMusic.

[pjme]

PLeeeeeassssss!  !!!! Stop it ...try not to start an argument again!

71dB has stated over and over again that he is a "free thinker" - whatever that means ...( it means a lot to him )...Let it be.
Ignore posters that you find irritating.

Peter

[The new erato]

I assume that erato considers me to be rather anti-Schubert.  However, that's not quite accurate.  I own about 150 Schubert recordings and love his solo piano works, string quartets, piano trios and even his operas.  But there is a little voice in my head that tells me Schubert is rather long-winded and deserves the minus points I've been giving him in the silly "composer competition" threads.  And let's keep in mind that the composers on those competition lists are generally the top of the mountain; somebody has to get a minus count.

Point taken - and one man's longwindedness is another man's heavenly length!   

[71 dB]

From my perspective, there's no point listening to Debussy if you insist on some kind of consistent rhythmic energy or pulse; that's simply not what Debussy's music is about.  I do agree about the value of Taneyev's counterpoint; he was an "ace" when it comes to writing counterpoint.

Similarly there is no point listening to Taneyev or Dittersdorf without understanding what the music is about. If Debussy had rhythmic energy or pulse in his music too it could be really good.

Let's remember that counterpoint is not universally loved, and many consider it a highly academic venture devoid of emotional investment.  Obviously, I consider this erroneous, but composers like Taneyev and Reger are often knocked for their contrapuntal tendencies.

And why is that? Because counterpoint takes higher understanding of art and it's relative structures. If masses like easy melodic music that's fine but Composers like Taneyev and Reger should not be punished for trying hard to produce intelligent art.

I would say the arrogance is more on your side by so cavalierly dismissing a composer on the level of Debussy, whose work you clearly don't know. As for your statement, "I find Debussy lacking rhythm," it is musically speaking nonsense. Rhythm is the aspect of music concerned with the durations of notes. All music by definition has rhythm.

Rhythm in Debussy's music is totally secondary to other things. "All music by definition has rhythm.", Yeah, and All music by definition has everything. 

Just one more thing about Taneyev.  He doesn't sound special at all in the new Naxos disc from the Carpe Diem Quartet that has two of his string quartets.  Anyone thinking of getting this disc would be wise to switch to the Taneyev Quartet cycle of the string quartets on the Northern Flowers label.

Pitty. I was considering this disc. Hopefully the forthcoming Naxos CD of Taneyev's symphonies is better. Thanks for the warning.

My problem with Mr. 71 dB is that he seems deliberately to be guided by an attitude of resentment towards the established canon:

Your problem is misinterpreting my words. I don't have a "resentment towards the established canon". I like lots of it. Just not all while I see treasures outside the canon. If I like 25 % of the established canon and also 25 % of obscure composers/works it does not matter which I explore, does it?

Some people show amazing ignorance of things outside "the established canon".

Seems to me that 71 dB, along with a very limited number of other board members, get a big kick out of bucking the "established" composers, labels, artists, etc.  This process might make them feel distinctive, but I think the price one pays is far too great.

I might get a kick out of it but my intention is to shaken the "ossified" opinion. It's healthy for you all.