Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

Hey, Gurn..

I noticed you were listening to Harnoncourt's recording of Die Jahreszeiten, how would you compare it to Gardiner, Jacobs and Kuijken? I really do enjoy all three, as they all bring their own unique sound and interpretation, but I do spin Jacobs the most. Jacobs' really possess the best sound quality which clearly defines all the great lines from the score, and it's a great performance as well although I do prefer some of the broader tempi in many places that Gardiner and Kuijken deliver. 

Do you have the Jacobs' disc, Gurn?

Greg,

Well, you chose the one set I don't have! I have Gardiner and Kuijken as well as Harnoncourt, but so far I only have Jacobs' 'Creation'. I was a late starter on 'The Seasons', although trying to catch up now.

I really like this Harnoncourt one, I think it compares favorably to both Gardiner and Kuijken, which is a hard admission for me to make!  I need to go back and re-listen the Gardiner though, to be fair, it has been 2 or 3 years since I've spun it. The sound is better than the Kuijken though, very sharp and clear.

[TheGSMoeller]

Greg,

Well, you chose the one set I don't have! I have Gardiner and Kuijken as well as Harnoncourt, but so far I only have Jacobs' 'Creation'. I was a late starter on 'The Seasons', although trying to catch up now.

I really like this Harnoncourt one, I think it compares favorably to both Gardiner and Kuijken, which is a hard admission for me to make!  I need to go back and re-listen the Gardiner though, to be fair, it has been 2 or 3 years since I've spun it. The sound is better than the Kuijken though, very sharp and clear.

I think you would enjoy indulging in Jacobs' Seasons, it's quite good. If anything, get it for the overly eager contrabassoon in the final movement of Der Sommer, it rivals any bassoon performance of symphony 93's adagio 

Also, I could easily listen to Der Sommer on repeat, it's up there with some of the loveliest music from Haydn.

[Gurn Blanston]

I think you would enjoy indulging in Jacobs' Seasons, it's quite good. If anything, get it for the overly eager contrabassoon in the final movement of Der Sommer, it rivals any bassoon performance of symphony 93's adagio 

Also, I could easily listen to Der Sommer on repeat, it's up there with some of the loveliest music from Haydn.

Ah, I love a good contra. I agree with you about Summer. We all have our favorite seasons, I guess, but oddly Summer is a favorite both here and in Vivaldi. Hmmm....

[EigenUser]

Ah, I love a good contra. I agree with you about Summer. We all have our favorite seasons, I guess, but oddly Summer is a favorite both here and in Vivaldi. Hmmm....

Summer is my favorite in the Vivaldi, but I think I like Fall the most in Haydn's The Seasons. That fugue!

Someone posted this interesting website on the Haydn symphony poll, I think:
http://www.haydn107.com/index.php?id=2&lng=1

They have each symphony with three recordings each -- one of them HIP. I can't quite figure out what is so great about HIP. There must be something, but it sounds kind of dry to me. Not horrible at all -- just that I prefer the others. Out of curiosity (and to help me gain an appreciation), what is it in recordings with PIs that is so appealing to people?

[kishnevi]

Sometimes opera is interesting, even if you aren't an opera fan! Haydn's L'incontro improvviso is such a case. If you know the history of the times you will know what I mean. If you don't know, I try to help out a little bit here. Check out if interested; love to discuss!

The Unexpected Encounter

Thanks,

Oh my,  an opera the GOP would love to hate.....And the general usefulness of the Haus:  I now know what the title of one section of Sheherazade refers to.

And fortunately for you, Gurn, HM reissued the Jacobs, so you need not spend too much to get it.

[Ken B]

Nate:

Out of curiosity (and to help me gain an appreciation), what is it in recordings with PIs that is so appealing to people?

Well way back when part of it was dedication. The HIPers played like they meant it, like it was all new, as it was. I think there is still a greater level of devotion.

Abstractly, when we get closer to the original sound some aspects of balance etc change and so then do interpretive choices. These can feed back to MI performances of course, and have in many cases.

And of course the sound. A Baroque orchestra sounds quite different from a modern one. More astringent, livelier, a bit more raucous. True also of classical orchestras. You complain Mozart is too polite and pretty. Also that PI instruments are too rough and ugly. Might I suggest some assembly is required. 

And vocal technique is a special case. It is just different for early music, with purer tones and less vibrato. This has a huge effect on contrapuntal music. Vocal coloring too.

Forgot to add: Harpsichord pisses James off.

[Karl Henning]

I'll only add that the value of the exercise is not diminished by the fact that, well, we have no way of knowing, really, just how the music sounded back then.

[Pat B]

I think Karl is referring to one of the favorite claims of the anti-HIP zealots. I find such arguments bizarre, since no one is telling them not to enjoy their Furtwängler and Klemperer recordings.

[Ken B]

I think Karl is referring to one of the favorite claims of the anti-HIP zealots. I find such arguments bizarre, since no one is telling them not to enjoy their Furtwängler and Klemperer recordings.

Right. There is nothing illegitimate about non-HIP. I think it pretty clear that Klemp differs more from what Mozart heard and expected than Gardiner does. That does not mean Klemp's musical insights are invalid or the like. And it certainly does not mean insights gained from PI cannot be employed with MI to good effect. 
And in any case we should recognize that there are fashions in music. People don't choose to be affected but are. In 40 years who knows what they will say about current tastes in performance?

[Mandryka]

When you listen to Furtwangler playing Haydn 88, or Klemperer playing 102, their ideas about things which are hard to read from the score, things like balances and some questions about articulation, are really very influenced by their own tastes. In the case of Furtwangler, the tastes of a man who felt most at home with 19th century ideas. Both guy were great musicians, so what they did with the music can be very fun to hear, of course.

By contrast, the HIP performers are trying to read the score in a way which is informed by the latest ideas from historians. I really do think that if Klemperer were alive and performing today he would play much more HIP, though maybe not with PI. Less sure about Furtwangler, who's a strange character IMO.

As far as dryness of HIP goes, my experience is different, and I've heard tons of HIP performances of baroque music which are expressive, and same for keyboard and chamber music by Haydn and Mozart. Symphonic music - well I feel less experienced about that to comment, though I would be surprised if anyone found Hogwood in the andante cantabile of 68 to be dry. Others are more able to comment about HIP Haydn and Mozart symphonies than me.

[Mandryka]

I want to mention something else about HIP. One theory I've got is that HIP with PI can bring out more dissonances, examples would be in Symphony 29/i, I'm really thinking of Kuijken's performance. Also in Bruggen's Mozart 40/ii. But quite honestly I don't know if my ears are deceiving me.

Neither do I really understand the role of dissonance in classical style music, though I am impressed by Beghin's sonata 52 on that well tempered English piano.

I can well imagine that part of what was involved in the paparising of Haydn was a secret conspiracy to purge the music of dissonances. Similarly for the image of Mozart which was pushed by the stakeholders in his music after he died.

[DavidW]

I really do think that if Klemperer were alive and performing today he would play much more HIP, though maybe not with PI. Less sure about Furtwangler, who's a strange character IMO.

I agree with both.  Haitink, Vanska, P. Jarvi etc all approach classical era works from a period style on modern instruments attitude.  I could see Klemperer fitting in with that type of style.  But Furtwangler is unique in his vision.  His spiritual successor, Barenboim, also conducts as he sees fit.

[DavidW]

Mandryka, I wonder if the emphasis on dissonance is for our modern ears.  Music is so dissonant these days, that dissonant music in the baroque or classical era sounds consonant to our ears, and thus does not have the same effect as it did to the audience of the time.  IMHO

[Mookalafalas]

Sorry to interrupt a nice flow going here, but I would like a recommendation for a good Haydn bio.  I prefer long biographies, assuming they are well written--three volumes would be better than two, for example.  If it tells a lot of tangential historical-contextual stuff, so much the better.  Any recommendations?  I have Rosen's "classical style", by the way, but haven't started it.   Thanks.

[EigenUser]

Sorry to interrupt a nice flow going here, but I would like a recommendation for a good Haydn bio.  I prefer long biographies, assuming they are well written--three volumes would be better than two, for example.  If it tells a lot of tangential historical-contextual stuff, so much the better.  Any recommendations?  I have Rosen's "classical style", by the way, but haven't started it.   Thanks.

I haven't read a full bio yet, but I highly recommend the documentary "In Search of Haydn". It is on YouTube as a rental for $3 or something like that. Very well done and interesting/entertaining.

[Florestan]

Sorry to interrupt a nice flow going here, but I would like a recommendation for a good Haydn bio.  I prefer long biographies, assuming they are well written--three volumes would be better than two, for example.  If it tells a lot of tangential historical-contextual stuff, so much the better.  Any recommendations?  I have Rosen's "classical style", by the way, but haven't started it.   Thanks.

If you want something HIP, try Stendhal's Vie de Haydn.

Available in original French here.

Because --- if musical HIP is all right, then why not literary HIP as well? 

[Mookalafalas]

Movie: Check
Stendhal's "Life of Haydn"--I'll keep an eye out, but not really what I had in mind

[Florestan]

Stendhal's "Life of Haydn"--I'll keep an eye out, but not really what I had in mind

Oh I'm sure. Just wanted to make the difference between "musical HIP" and "literary HIP". Stendhal or Dante or Homer are the same forever and ever amen. Haydn, OTOH... 

[EigenUser]

Movie: Check
Stendhal's "Life of Haydn"--I'll keep an eye out, but not really what I had in mind

Let me know what you think when you get the chance to see it!

[Mookalafalas]

Let me know what you think when you get the chance to see it!

  Will do. I should hide from it until after the 10th (I have a massive amount of work), but will probably sneak it in before then .

   Right now looking at "Haydn: A Creative Life in Music" for the bio.  Quick spin through Amazon and that is the best that came up...


edit: They won't let me stream the movie here in Taiwan...:mad: