Haydn's Haus

[Mookalafalas]

Congrats on the purchase, Karl. I envy you! Shipping to Taiwan was 250% of the books price, so I couldn't pull the trigger myself.  I hope you enjoy it.

Mandryka was right about Scherchen's version of Sym 88.  It's magical, literally like the music is taking you somewhere else...
        Listening to the Weil 88 now, which is wonderful, but not magical.

[Mandryka]

Congrats on the purchase, Karl. I envy you! Shipping to Taiwan was 250% of the books price, so I couldn't pull the trigger myself.  I hope you enjoy it.

Mandryka was right about Scherchen's version of Sym 88.  It's magical, literally like the music is taking you somewhere else...
        Listening to the Weil 88 now, which is wonderful, but not magical.

The largo's the problem in Scherchen's 88, I really don't know what to think about it. If you can get to symhonyshare check the 88 from Tognett, which is full of characteri. Arbendroth is exceptional as is Weil and Bruggen.

[Jo498]

The largo is taken extremely slow (more than 10 instead of about 6 minutes), but I find the whole thing fascinating...
His 45 is also quite unique, 92 and 49 are very good, whereas the 44 (and several of the "London" set) are marred by subpar execution (audible flubs) and tempi which are off, but not as compelling for me. Another good one is the stereo #100 (unfortunately I am not so fond of the piece...).

[Ken B]

Congrats on the purchase, Karl. I envy you! Shipping to Taiwan was 250% of the books price, so I couldn't pull the trigger myself.  I hope you enjoy it.

Mandryka was right about Scherchen's version of Sym 88.  It's magical, literally like the music is taking you somewhere else...
        Listening to the Weil 88 now, which is wonderful, but not magical.

That's odd because the cheapest thing in the world to ship is books. They qualify for book rate. A bookseller friend told me if I want to mail a brick it's cheaper if I stamp BOOK on the package ...

[mszczuj]

[what is it in recordings with PIs that is so appealing to people?

meaning and swing

[Gurn Blanston]

meaning and swing

Simple, yet effective.

Beyond that, it is the fact that usually, 19th century performance practice has been stripped away and there is an element of 18th century sound world. The fact that a 1788 Schantz piano can't sound like a modern Steinway or Bösendorfer doesn't put me off; it thrills me. The fact that a wooden flute with 5 holes can't sound like a 1847 Boehm silver flute makes me feel much much better. And if it couldn't play certain notes, you know what? The composer didn't write those notes! I don't mind. And if gut strings can't really be heard well from the back of the hall, it's because the hall is too big, not the violin is too weak. Haydn's symphony #28 premiered in Esterházy's living room! I'm good with that! 

And then, there are meaning and swing.   0:)

[Mookalafalas]

That's odd because the cheapest thing in the world to ship is books. They qualify for book rate. A bookseller friend told me if I want to mail a brick it's cheaper if I stamp BOOK on the package ...

  The US used to have "International book rate", and books were only about a dollar a pound once you got over 10 pounds.  They came by boat, but it was still wonderful for large packages.  Around 7 years ago, however, the USPS switched to air only, and prices shot up dramatically.  Buying from Ebay, the range of quoted "at cost" shipping prices from sellers varies wildly.  Amazon blocks almost all (all but their "prime" partners) from selling second hand books abroad (or to Taiwan, anyway), even if their name is something like "International booksellers" . 

[Gurn Blanston]

We have talked about the impending release of this disk a few times here, I finally got it today:



Portrait of an Extraordinary Musical Dog by Phillip Reinagle (1805)

If you love the sound of the fortepiano, this is a must-have! Mitchell (he is a 'new talent award winner') is a very fine player indeed, and the selection of music is a fine blend too. He takes 2 sonatas from the 'Dedicated to the Prince' set of 1774, the F and the Eb (Hob 23 & 28), the C major Hob 48, then the Adagio & Variations in F 17:9 and the one in f 17:6. In between each of them he plays a very short chromatic interlude beginning in the key of the previous and ending in the key of the new work. So, F to Eb - Eb to C - C to F and then just dropping down to f minor for the finale. The entire thing is a non-stop 76 minutes. The fortepiano is great, but you have to like fortepianos, you can't be concentrating on 'shit, I would love to hear this on a Steinway' or some such thing. It wouldn't work on one anyway, plus the variety of tonal colors of this instrument is fabulous, and he gets them all out. I'm delighted! 

[Mookalafalas]

We have talked about the impending release of this disk a few times here, I finally got it today:

  When I was 10 years old, I inherited a half-grown golden retriever pup named Mitchell from a relative. 
       Although bright for a pup, he could only play show-tunes and some of the easier Wyndham-Hill repertoire.  I had heard that Gordon Setters had both better technique and taste, but it took me until now to see definitive proof. 

[Florestan]

The fact that a 1788 Schantz piano can't sound like a modern Steinway or Bösendorfer doesn't put me off; it thrills me. The fact that a wooden flute with 5 holes can't sound like a 1847 Boehm silver flute makes me feel much much better. And if it couldn't play certain notes, you know what? The composer didn't write those notes! I don't mind. And if gut strings can't really be heard well from the back of the hall, it's because the hall is too big, not the violin is too weak. Haydn's symphony #28 premiered in Esterházy's living room! I'm good with that! 

One can be good with that if, and only if, one subscribes to the view that "the medium [ie. the Schantz piano or the wooden flute] is the message". 

But obviously there is more to the message than the mere medium.  For instance, the most up-to-date HIP performance (oh, the irony!) cannot give you, Gurn, what was back then the basic prerequisite for a full appreciation, and enjoyment, of a Haydn mass: a staunch faith in the truth of the teachings, and the validity of the rituals, of The Roman Catholic Church. 

Schantz or Steinway, wooden flute or Boehm flute, one thing is certain: the worldview that informed Haydn's whole being and thought is lost forever and no HIP performance can recreate it anymore. 

And if you're going to argue that Haydn's music has an universal message and appeal which does not depend on living and thinking exactly like Haydn (which is true), then I'm going to argue that the same message and appeal does not depend on the music being played on exactly the same instruments like Haydn (which is also true). Because, and I'm sorry to say it, if Haydn's Symphony #28 cannot be truly and fully enjoyed except when heard in the living room of an Austrian aristocrat, played by an orchestra assorted with cooks and footmen as caretaker oboists or cellists, then I have no use for it since these prerequisites are outside my reach. 

[Gurn Blanston]

One can be good with that if, and only if, one subscribes to the view that "the medium [ie. the Schantz piano or the wooden flute] is the message". 

But obviously there is more to the message than the mere medium.  For instance, the most up-to-date HIP performance (oh, the irony!) cannot give you, Gurn, what was back then the basic prerequisite for a full appreciation, and enjoyment, of a Haydn mass: a staunch faith in the truth of the teachings, and the validity of the rituals, of The Roman Catholic Church. 

Schantz or Steinway, wooden flute or Boehm flute, one thing is certain: the worldview that informed Haydn's whole being and thought is lost forever and no HIP performance can recreate it anymore. 

And if you're going to argue that Haydn's music has an universal message and appeal which does not depend on living and thinking exactly like Haydn (which is true), then I'm going to argue that the same message and appeal does not depend on the music being played on exactly the same instruments like Haydn (which is also true). Because, and I'm sorry to say it, if Haydn's Symphony #28 cannot be truly and fully enjoyed except when heard in the living room of an Austrian aristocrat, played by an orchestra assorted with cooks and footmen as caretaker oboists or cellists, then I have no use for it since these prerequisites are outside my reach. 

The problem with this is I am not making any of those claims, you (apparently) are. All I am saying is that I greatly prefer the sound of authentic instruments, there is nothing written that they can't play, and they (usually) have shed off the ton of shit that the 19th and earlier 20th century put on them in terms of performance style. They even use actual scores, which didn't exist before the 1960's, so how can those old-timers have used them?

Esterházy didn't have anything but professional musicians in his orchestra, some of the best in Europe. As good as or better than some musicians today, I might add with complete confidence in my claim.

I don't give a damn about philosophy, actually, I only care about what I can hear. And I like what I hear.

[Florestan]

they (usually) have shed off the ton of shit that the 19th and earlier 20th century put on them in terms of performance style. They even use actual scores, which didn't exist before the 1960's, so how can those old-timers have used them?

Now wait a minute! If scores didn't exist before 1960, how could anyone prior to that date know what and how to play? One can infer from what you just wrote that prior to 1960's nobody played Haydn the right way, nay, that there wasn't even a way to play Haydn. What am I missing?

Esterházy didn't have anything but professional musicians in his orchestra, some of the best in Europe. As good as or better than some musicians today, I might add with complete confidence in my claim.

And yet it is you who said, several times, that it was not unusual for a cook or a footman or whatever servant in Eszterhazy's service to replace a professional musician who happened to be ill, or on leave. 

I don't give a damn about philosophy modern instruments, actually, I only care about what I can hear. And I like what I hear.

There, fixed. 

Boy, don't you just love a good fight now and then? 

[Gurn Blanston]

Now wait a minute! If scores didn't exist before 1960, how could anyone prior to that date know what and how to play? One can infer from what you just wrote that prior to 1960's nobody played Haydn the right way, nay, that there wasn't even a way to play Haydn. What am I missing?

Over the course of the 19th century, dozens of editors 'improved' Haydn's scores, removing the odd little dissonances he always incorporated and completely eliminating anything they didn't understand. I'm not talking some obscure companies here, but places like Breitkopf and Härtel, who supplied performance scores to most of the bands in the world. The mid/late 19th century Big Name conductors were the worst, trying to make Haydn sound like he came after Beethoven instead of before. Also eliminated all repeats, a common problem which destroys the balance of Classical composers, especially Haydn and Mozart. Robbins-Landon began releasing scores based on Haydn's manuscripts in the early 1960's, and they weren't used by big-name conductors for a decade or more afterwards.

And yet it is you who said, several times, that it was not unusual for a cook or a footman or whatever servant in Eszterhazy's service to replace a professional musician who happened to be ill, or on leave. 

It was commonplace at that time for this to happen. This was because most employers couldn't afford to employ people who did nothing but play music. Esterházy was an exception, he could not only afford musicians, but also singers, a drama company and a marionette performance company who did nothing else, and they ran a full season one summer when he wasn't even there!  Haydn's previous employer, Morzin, used other servants as musicians though. He eventually went broke anyway, even though Haydn was possibly his only full-time musician.

There, fixed. 

Boy, don't you just love a good fight now and then? 

Actually both are correct. I don't care about philosophy; life is too short, rather live it than ponder it. Modern instruments are great for modern (post 1828) music.   0:)

Are we fighting? I thought I was just wising you up. 

[Wakefield]

At first sight to purchase this doesn't look as a terrible mistake: 

La lira di Napoli (Haydn, Pleyel, Orgitano, Mozart)
Ensemble Baroque de Limoges
Christophe Coin



http://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/album/la-lira-di-napoli-haydn-pleyel-orgitano-mozart-ensemble-baroque-de-limoges-christophe-coin/0810473010020

I think several of us have this one:

[Gurn Blanston]

At first sight to purchase this doesn't look as a terrible mistake: 

La lira di Napoli (Haydn, Pleyel, Orgitano, Mozart)
Ensemble Baroque de Limoges
Christophe Coin



http://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/album/la-lira-di-napoli-haydn-pleyel-orgitano-mozart-ensemble-baroque-de-limoges-christophe-coin/0810473010020

I think several of us have this one:

I certainly had no regrets. It is even interesting to hear what other composers were doing for Lira. Of course, the Mozart was actually not Mozart, it was an attributed piece by Sterkel. Still, interesting. As for Delirium, it is one of the more interesting projects done (be)for(e) the Haydn year. Not quite the caliber of Beghin's sonata set, but down the same path, considering they built the instruments just for these recordings. Everyone should buy them just to help them recoup such a bold investment! 

[Wakefield]

... [of Beghin's sonata set] Everyone should buy them just to help them recoup such a bold investment! 

I did it! Twice! Firstly, I bought the blu-ray set and then the CD set. I'm completely happy with both of them.

[Gurn Blanston]

I did it! Twice! Firstly, I bought the blu-ray set and then the CD set. I'm completely happy with both of them.

Excellent. I am going to get the Blu-Ray and just put it on the shelf until I upgrade my hardware. My DVD is still going strong, so I haven't considered to dump it yet. Still, just having it on the shelf makes the point. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I also received this disk yesterday, a question about which began this latest keyboard spasm:



As I suspected, the 1794 Broadwood has a very colorful sound. It is rich for a fortepiano, but not as much as it would have been 10-15 years later. Rémy is a very good player, although this performance doesn't exceed such as Cooper or Brautigam, both of whom kill in this piece. If you are a collector of PI Keyboard disks, certainly you will want this. If you are looking for the definitive version of Haydn's last sonata, this isn't it, I probably already have IT and just haven't realized it yet. 

[Gurn Blanston]

  When I was 10 years old, I inherited a half-grown golden retriever pup named Mitchell from a relative. 
       Although bright for a pup, he could only play show-tunes and some of the easier Wyndham-Hill repertoire.  I had heard that Gordon Setters had both better technique and taste, but it took me until now to see definitive proof.

Thanks for the ID; I was thinking some sort of spaniel perhaps, although they are notorious for dropping notes, and at the worst times. I just figured they may have been better in 1805...

[Mookalafalas]

I just figured they may have been better in 1805...

  Perhaps a lost strain, or maybe keyboard technique faded when they began breeding for card-playing...

  By the way, I'm on page 115 of this thread. How did it get to be such a monster?  The other major composers threads are just 1/4 or so of this length...  Nice blog, by the way!  I am very antsy to read a bio, but all I could download was an 1898 and a 1902.  I'm trying to resist. 

Also, I'm having a weird response to the Bruno Weil.  I find listening to them to be like nibbling candy or watching old cartoons:  it's delightful while I'm doing so, but leaves almost no memory behind.  Listening to Beaux Arts Trio now.   Excellent, but so are the other trios I've played...