Haydn's Haus

[Wakefield]

1783 was a quiet year overall, but no year for Haydn was entirely without an event or two. This year, Joseph Kraus stopped by for a visit, and that's not all. See what I discovered;

Kraus & The Princess

Thanks,

Thanks, Gurn. It's an interesting essay, especially what you say about the restrictive image of Haydn as a sort of servant-composer, as opposed (I guess) to a freelance composer, like it's supposed composers were from Mozart onwards. Your essay also leads to rethink, as you have been claiming, how important was opera in Haydn's everyday work, and how it should maybe be reevaluated the position of his operas in the general context of his output.    

[Gurn Blanston]

Hmm. Wikipedia has a little article which heavily implies that Mozart and Haydn probably first met in December 1783.  Which would mean that Kraus met Haydn before Mozart did, and so would have been "the first genius" Haydn met.

Or, to reverse it, Haydn's comment is circumstantial evidence that he did not meet Mozart before late 1783.

The Wikipedia link is..
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haydn_and_Mozart

Yes, it is pretty much a guess when they met, since it is undocumented. They both went to the same salons, like the Greiner one, and Greiner daughter Caroline Pichler discusses them in her autobiography, although the time frame isn't nailed down. It has also been speculated, with good reason, that Haydn was present with the Duke and Duchess at Joseph II's piano duel between Mozart and Clementi, which was on Christmas Eve 1781. Which in and of itself doesn't mean they met, only that Haydn had seen Mozart play the piano. The problem as I see it is there is little reason for any document to note such a meeting.

However, I am perfectly willing for it to have been whenever it was.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks, Gurn. It's an interesting essay, especially what you say about the restrictive image of Haydn as a sort of servant-composer, as opposed (I guess) to a freelance composer, like it's supposed composers were from Mozart onwards. Your essay also leads to rethink, as you have been claiming, how important was opera in Haydn's everyday work, and how it should maybe be reevaluated the position of his operas in the general context of his output.   

Thanks, Gordo. Yes, that sums it up; not freelance enough, I'm afraid.   It appears to me as an early example of people not applying linearity to history, as we see elsewhere. "He worked for the Prince, thus these works which we would otherwise enjoy are the result of servility, thus we condemn them".

The more I read about the opera business, the more I can understand how dominating and all-consuming of time it must have been. This in itself makes one marvel that Haydn composed as long as he did before totally burning out!

[Wakefield]

Thanks, Gordo. Yes, that sums it up; not freelance enough, I'm afraid.   It appears to me as an early example of people not applying linearity to history, as we see elsewhere. "He worked for the Prince, thus these works which we would otherwise enjoy are the result of servility, thus we condemn them".

The more I read about the opera business, the more I can understand how dominating and all-consuming of time it must have been. This in itself makes one marvel that Haydn composed as long as he did before totally burning out!

I totally agree.

BTW, I also liked what Kraus wrote in his diary, not the customary reference to Haydn's good nature, but about his relation with money. I think there is an interesting theme here: why Haydn seemed always needed of money? After all, he seems quite conservative in money issues, not like, say, Mozart, who was a complete mess in financial matters. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I totally agree.

BTW, I also liked what Kraus wrote in his diary, not the customary reference to Haydn's good nature, but about his relation with money. I think there is an interesting theme here: why Haydn seemed always needed of money? After all, he seems quite conservative in money issues, not like, say, Mozart, who was a complete mess in financial matters.

He was married to a woman who, if she had at least one failing of note, it was her profligacy in money matters. I have been derelict in failing to mention that before... 

[Wakefield]

He was married to a woman who, if she had at least one failing of note, it was her profligacy in money matters. I have been derelict in failing to mention that before... 

Yes it could be a factor. Apparently, he also cared greatly for his nieces and nephews, and in general for his extended family.

[Old Listener]

A reference to Haydn's symphony No. 2 prompted me to listen to the recording by Derek Solomans and L'Estro Armonico.  The sound of the period instruments seemed just right for the music.  I've had that feeling before about this group; in symphonies no. 39, 45, 48 and others, their sound seems to enhance the feeling of the music in a way most other groups' recordings do not.  I don't know whether that sound would seem as appropriate for the Paris or London symphonies.

[Gurn Blanston]

A reference to Haydn's symphony No. 2 prompted me to listen to the recording by Derek Solomans and L'Estro Armonico.  The sound of the period instruments seemed just right for the music.  I've had that feeling before about this group; in symphonies no. 39, 45, 48 and others, their sound seems to enhance the feeling of the music in a way most other groups' recordings do not.  I don't know whether that sound would seem as appropriate for the Paris or London symphonies.

I know just what you mean, it is a difficult feeling to describe, but the sense of 'rightness' is clearly there. I think L'Estro Armonico would have had to retool for symphonies after 1775 or so, even if only to accommodate the larger groups Haydn was writing for. I think that Il Giardino is going to run into that same issue when they get past a few more disks. They jump around with their choices, much like Solomons did (1, 39 & 49 on volume 1), but it will be hard to picture them doing #12 and #82 with the same setup. I'm looking forward to seeing what their solution might be. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I like Haydn's cello concerto in D, it is a quintessential Classic Era work, hard on the cellist without sounding like it. Not everyone always has liked it though, and I looked a bit at the reception and history of it in this week's essay. Welcome to read and discuss.

Master of my Kraft...

Thanks!

[Karl Henning]

I sent this to Gurn off-line, as I was having trouble reaching GMG this morning ...

At the Goya exhibit at the MFA, we gazed upon this portrait.  The Duke of Alba (a title acquired from his wife) and Marquess of Villafranca was an avid hunstman and amateur musician, hence his depiction here both wearing riding boots, and nonchalantly leaning on an early fortepiano and holding an imprint of "Papa."

[Gurn Blanston]

I sent this to Gurn off-line, as I was having trouble reaching GMG this morning ...

At the Goya exhibit at the MFA, we gazed upon this portrait.  The Duke of Alba (a title acquired from his wife) and Marquess of Villafranca was an avid hunstman and amateur musician, hence his depiction here both wearing riding boots, and nonchalantly leaning on an early fortepiano and holding an imprint of "Papa."

That's such a fine painting, I saw an old B&W picture of it once, much nicer in color. It does give an indication of how widespread his popularity was in his own time. Thanks, Karl! 

[Karl Henning]

It was a wonderful exhibit, and this portrait was one of the high points.

[Florestan]

The Duke of Alba (a title acquired from his wife) and Marquess of Villafranca was an avid hunstman and amateur musician,

Unlike Haydn, who was a professional musician and an avid fisherman. 

[Gurn Blanston]

It was a wonderful exhibit, and this portrait was one of the high points.

Note that the music is called "Four Songs with accompaniment of Fortepiano", it is an unauthorized pirated ripoff copy... 

Alba was quite a famous collector of music and books. His library, unfortunately burned to the ground a few years after his death. It is well known, however. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Unlike Haydn, who was a professional musician and an avid fisherman. 

Actually, he loved to hunt, but not from horseback. He was a shootist. So was Mozart (shooting, not hunting). Isn't that an odd bit of trivia? 

[ritter]

...
At the Goya exhibit at the MFA, we gazed upon this portrait.  The Duke of Alba (a title acquired from his wife) and Marquess of Villafranca was an avid hunstman and amateur musician, hence his depiction here both wearing riding boots, and nonchalantly leaning on an early fortepiano and holding an imprint of "Papa."

That is one stunning portrait  . Thanks for sharing!

According to the information provided by the Prado Museum in Madrid, the score the Duke is holding might be "VI Lieder beim Clavier zu Singen. Die Musik ist von Herrn Joseph Haydn", published by Artaria in Vienna (Hob. XXVIa: 13-24), from 1784, and reissued in 1794, or perhaps the "VI canzonettas" in English (Hob.XXVIa: 25-30), from 1794, on poems by Anne Hunter. The Prado says that the reference to "Herrn Haydn" only appeared in scores published by Artaria.

The Duke also was the recipient of two string quartets, as part of an agreement between Haydn and the Countess of Benavente. Apparently, it's not quite clear which quartets these actually were.

[EigenUser]

Is that a glissando I hear in the finale of Baryton Trio No. 46?! Happens a few times...

[Gurn Blanston]

Is that a glissando I hear in the finale of Baryton Trio No. 46?! Happens a few times...

Well, I don't know the defined parameters of a glissando, but it is certainly a slide of one sort or another. Sounds pretty cool, eh! 

[EigenUser]

Well, I don't know the defined parameters of a glissando, but it is certainly a slide of one sort or another. Sounds pretty cool, eh! 

Yeah! I couldn't quite tell if it was just a fast chromatic run or a legit glissando. Unfortunately, the score is not on IMSLP (or anywhere else) so I can't see how it is notated.

[Gurn Blanston]

Yeah! I couldn't quite tell if it was just a fast chromatic run or a legit glissando. Unfortunately, the score is not on IMSLP (or anywhere else) so I can't see how it is notated.

No, I don't think anyone could be expected to play that fast! It has to be a slide. Technically, especially back then, it could have been one of a dozen; you're right, no score here either. Pity, really...