A different cut on beginners' classical music

[Florestan]

I have a solution to music I find boring, I take it off sell it and play something I like.  After all I listen to music for the enjoyment of music.

Oh, I have no complaint about this practice. I just think you misunderstood the nature of this forum and the type of people that populates it.

Look at it this way. Most (if not all) of the posters here use not only their bodies, feelings and emotional responses, but also their brains. They don't dismiss certain composers as "boring" just because the first hearing of a work did not result in an instant auricular or bodily pleasure. They spend a lot of time trying to figure out if there's something wrong with the music or with them. This implies listening, studying, thinking, comparing, analyzing and, of course, interacting with others, be they people here, knowledgeable musicologists or reviewers. They might or might not agree with "the musical establishment" but they don't dismiss its members off-hand as academic bores. For them, music is nost just a half-hour "feel-good" gratification, but a spiritual and intellectual experience as well. It involves an appreciation and curiosity not only for music per se but also for its history and connections with other fields of human spirituality. Most, if not all, posters here have had their struggle with this or that composer, but by perseverence and informed listening, a lot of them have come to like, nay, love!, what they initially disliked. Of course, all this implies a lot of time, effort and humility and is a far cry from the prevalent attitude among rock / pop fans. It may sound like "elitism" to you, but that's your bad.

So, I hope you now realize that your take on classical music could not be more misplaced on this forum. It's like a Romanian proverb: you're selling cucumbers to the gardener.

[Topaz]

What is boring to me may be beautiful and soulful to someone else. And that is why I say music is a very personal thing.  Dull and boring are "personal" feelings and no credentials are needed by anyone, not me and not you!  It would not bother me if you think the music I like is boring.  So where is the problem?

One problem is that you are writing stuff like this in your website:

...  I firmly believe that radio stations are playing the WRONG classical music, reviewers are reviewing the WRONG classical music, so people new to classical music are being exposed to classical music they could never like.

There's nothing wrong with the kind of classical music played by the better radio stations, as it's this which audiences want.  I'm an avid listener of the BBC's Radio 3 music station in the UK, and I have no problems with their choice of music.  Radio stations aren't going to focus on classical music from the fringes of mainstream interests merely on the off-chance that a few listeners who don't like classical music may suddenly see the light.

What is so illogical about your argument is the notion that classical music generally would gain a wider audience if more resources were devoted to promoting those branches which the current majority of listeners do not care for.  All such resources are scarce, and to deflect their current focus away from the established canon to the marginal has little chance of expanding the total.  On the contrary, it could have a deleterious effect on the future of maintaining support and interest in the established canon of classical music.

[Daverz]

Is this the same Teresa who limits her listening to audiophile Lps? 

[Fëanor]

... I just think you misunderstood the nature of this forum and the type of people that populates it.

.... Most, if not all, posters here have had their struggle with this or that composer, but by perseverence and informed listening, a lot of them have come to like, nay, love!, what they initially disliked. Of course, all this implies a lot of time, effort and humility and is a far cry from the prevalent attitude among rock / pop fans. It may sound like "elitism" to you, but that's your bad.

Well-said, Florestan

[Rod Corkin]

I couldn't agree more with the above comment.

Let me ask Teresa how many converts she has had, i.e. how many people she is aware of who profess not to like classical music but who have changed their mind after sampling the kind of material she likes.

As for (LIEUTENANT-COLONEL) Harry's abysmally failing amorous advances, it made me wonder whether Teresa might get a more a sympathetic hearing for her opinions from the well-known, broad-minded classical music proprietor of the MAYHEM site.  That should be good for a few laughs.  I'll keep tuned in specially to watch developments.  Go on, Teresa, I dare you, give it a try.  You'll meet some other interesting folk too.

Thanks for promoting ClassicalMusicMayhem!! Topaz, which happens to be a bloody good site if I do say so myself. Yes Teresa will be welcome at CMM, you should join up yourself as non-members can view only one forum within the site - imagine how much more watching with interest you could do!? (or have you secretly joined up already??)

[(poco) Sforzando]

Teresa, we are only teasing you.

I'm not.

[Harry]

I'm not.

Yes you are.....
Teresa has you where she wanted you, so blinded are you by her rantings, that you reacted exactly as she wanted and expected, and so gave her a platform on which to perform...
And if you were not teasing her, well, there is always the odd one out, and just maybe I am that person...

[(poco) Sforzando]

Yes you are.....
Teresa has you where she wanted you, so blinded are you by her rantings, that you reacted exactly as she wanted and expected, and so gave her a platform on which to perform...
And if you were not teasing her, well, there is always the odd one out, and just maybe I am that person...

But we have Teresa where we want her too, blustering and pouting and posturing, and not willing to budge one inch from her self-created musical prison. And when we decide no longer to participate in this fruitless discussion, she has her diet of musical junk food, and we have the musical nutrition.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I am referring to "good taste" as in what is considered "The Greats" in Classical music by the Classical establishment.  Instead I want what "tastes good" to my ears, my heart and my soul and only my ears, my heart and my soul.  I don't follow reviewers or any authority on what I must have, I buy and play what I like.  It's really that simple.  And that is another reason I go to great pains to emphasize my list is "suggestions" not "must haves" as other lists do.   I believe listeners can choose what they like if they can find it, I am only helping them to find it.

Before I give up on this discussion completely, I don't know of any such lists that are other than suggestions, and would be surprised if you can find one. But what you seem not to realize is that you truly intend your list to be only suggestions, there's no reason not to include the Brahms symphonies, Verdi operas, or Beethoven quartets you so despise and abhor. For after all (not that I think for one moment that your lists will really have much influence), if the goal is to help other listeners find what they like, it would follow logically that such a list ought not to be limited solely to the kinds of things you like.

[Topaz]

Before I give up on this discussion completely, I don't know of any such lists that are other than suggestions, and would be surprised if you can find one. But what you seem not to realize is that you truly intend your list to be only suggestions, there's no reason not to include the Brahms symphonies, Verdi operas, or Beethoven quartets you so despise and abhor. For after all (not that I think for one moment that your lists will really have much influence), if the goal is to help other listeners find what they like, it would follow logically that such a list ought not to be limited solely to the kinds of things you like.

Absolutely right. It seems highly perverse to focus on any one individual's preferred list, especially if that person has a declared disliking for all absolute music, which is the bedrock of the standard repertoire.  Instead, any such list is probably best based on what countless generations of classical music lovers have found valuable and rewarding material.  There are some very good lists of the best/greatest classical music by genre and by composer, based on such criteria, on the DDD website.   

[Ephemerid]

...if the goal is to help other listeners find what they like, it would follow logically that such a list ought not to be limited solely to the kinds of things you like.

Exactly.

What is so illogical about your argument is the notion that classical music generally would gain a wider audience if more resources were devoted to promoting those branches which the current majority of listeners do not care for.  All such resources are scarce, and to deflect their current focus away from the established canon to the marginal has little chance of expanding the total.  On the contrary, it could have a deleterious effect on the future of maintaining support and interest in the established canon of classical music.

Most, if not all, posters here have had their struggle with this or that composer, but by perseverence and informed listening, a lot of them have come to like, nay, love!, what they initially disliked. Of course, all this implies a lot of time, effort and humility and is a far cry from the prevalent attitude among rock / pop fans. It may sound like "elitism" to you, but that's your bad.

Good posts, Sforzando, Topaz and Florestan.

Also, Sforzando and Don both made some good points in a different thread (on Bach) thread which seem applicable here, in their own special way (particularly in bold)

This is yet another example of what, in literary circles, Harold Bloom calls "the School of Resentment": i.e., the attitude that somehow, for reasons of "conspiracy" or "brainwashing" or such, the culture of the West as generally understood is a direct affront to one's personal pride. In literary circles this often takes the form of denigrating Shakespeare and Dante in favor of the latest "relevant" black, or female, or gay writers. But we see it everywhere in classical music too, and from a number of posters on this forum - whether they feel the accepted canon has ipso facto slighted Pettersson, or Elgar, or Joachim Raff, or women composers, or Polish masters, or the composer of Messiah. Take your pick, every Resenter has his favorite candidates. And as for the rest of us: in the Resenters' minds all we like sheep have gone astray; whereas in truth it is the Resenters who have turnéd every one to his own way. 

I guess my problem is that I don't understand why these folks can't love the accepted canon/composers along with those other composers and works that they have a strong liking for.  I have a warm feeling for quite a few Russian composers such as Taneyev, Miaskovsky, Scriabin and Weinberg, but that doesn't diminish my love for the accepted Russian masters like Tchaikvosky, Prokofiev and Rachmaninov.  However, members here such as Corkin feel it necessary to elevate their favorites by diminishing the competition.  That's sad.

Originally from here: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6093.msg147334.html#msg147334

[Ephemerid]

Imagine someone claiming to be a big fan of Emerson Lake and Palmer"

ELP is a really cool band!  I think you'd like them too.  Oh, I know you might be thinking "Aren't those the guys that did those dreadfully long  'art rock' songs that don't fit any pop song format?  Boring!  But ELP didn't just do long bombastic numbers like "Karn Evil 9," and "Tarkus."  They did GOOD songs too!  Songs like "Lucky Man," "In the Beginning," "Still, You Turn Me On" and "C'est La Vie" and maybe a few other shorter ELP songs.  THAT'S where the good ELP stuff is at, not all that other boring rubbish which I abhor!  No, don't even bother listening to any of their other stuff, I'll show you the good stuff...

Or how about this:

I love metal music.  Oh, I know you might be thinking really loud pounding guitars and such-- you might not like that-- well, I don't either.  REAL metal music, the best stuff are songs like "Silent Lucidity" by Queensryche, "Different Strings" by Rush, etc.  Don't bother listening to that loud stuff-- I'll show you what the best metal music sounds like... etc etc.

In both cases, the hypothetical "ELP fan" and "metal fan" aren't really fans at all because they've limited the scope to things that aren't even highly representational of what that music is about.  I'm sure there are people who would object to those people calling themselves an "ELP fan" or "metal" fan when their scope is so limited to things that aren't even typical of this or that music.  But those people wouldn't be "elitists" for pointing that out-- they're simply saying its misleading (and you could easily mislead others) by claiming the greatest song by ELP is "In the Beginning" (a song much less typical of their music). 

One could say "I like three or four ELP songs" but one would be hard pressed to call themselves an actual fan of their music.  One could say "I like a few ballads by metal bands" but one could hardly call themselves "metal fans."  That would be quite laughable.

~ josh (a self-confessed former ELP fan)

[Josquin des Prez]

What is so illogical about your argument is the notion that classical music generally would gain a wider audience if more resources were devoted to promoting those branches which the current majority of listeners do not care for. 

Or rather, if more resources were devoted to promoting those branches which Teresa favors the most...

[Fëanor]

Imagine someone claiming to be a big fan of Emerson Lake and Palmer"
....

~ josh (a self-confessed former ELP fan)

Yeah, I have 10-12 rock albums, DSOTHM, ELP, The Band, Blood, Sweat & Tears Beatles, (that old stuff), but this does not make me a rock fan.  Nor would I justfiy rock nor recommend it to a beginnner based on the minisculely few things I like.

[Fëanor]

Yes you are{,sforzando}.....
Teresa has you where she wanted you, so blinded are you by her rantings, that you reacted exactly as she wanted and expected, and so gave her a platform on which to perform...
And if you were not teasing her, well, there is always the odd one out, and just maybe I am that person...

I certainly began this thread to tease Teresa with the hope that she would get wind of it and response as she has -- Tehehehe 

But also of course to confirm that people here generally feel as I do about classical music and the way it ought to be explored and enjoyed.  This has also happened.

[ChamberNut]

But also of course to confirm that people here generally feel as I do about classical music and the way it ought to be explored and enjoyed.  This has also happened.

Yes, us elite listeners. 

[Fëanor]

Yes, us elite listeners. 

Dang!! I'm an elitist   

[Josquin des Prez]

I'm beginning to believe you are an elitist of the worst sort that does not want regular people listening to your prized Classical music.

That couldn't be farther from the truth. Indeed, it is my greatest desire to share the years of pleasure and joy i derived from the music which you seem to hate so much with others, and it is precisely because of this that i find your attitude to be so insufferable in that i am firmly convinced that the reason why regular people are so "seemingly" inimical to classical music (and believe me, they are not) is because of people like you who would presume to know what's best for others and make sure anything that is even remotely challenging or self edifying is kept out of public view. I know this from personal experience in that i had to wait until my early 20s before i had enough self determination to seek out classical music on my own, and it's not because i previously found the so called "establishment" to be difficoult or hard to connect with, even as a teenager, i simply had no proper exposure to it, or any exposure for that matter.

Well we are here and you cannot scare us away, but we only want the stuff we like not the stuff we are supposed to like. 

You seem to be under the erroneous impression the stuff you like is also what everybody else is supposed to like, or does like.

Would you rather have listeners not explore these and never become a Classical music listener?

I'm not sure i get your point here. You denigrate everything classical music stands for, but you still think it's important to convert people to this music. It makes absolutely no sense.

If people aren't going to learn how to appreciate the masters, then yes, i would rather not have them become classical music listeners. What's the point?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Dang!! I'm an elitist   

From Wikipedia:

Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals ... with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern...

The term elitism is also sometimes misused to denote situations in which a group of people claiming to possess high abilities or simply an in-group or cadre grant themselves extra privileges at the expense of others.

(Emphasis mine)

[(poco) Sforzando]

Teresa (seething):
I'm beginning to believe you are an elitist of the worst sort that does not want regular people listening to your prized Classical music.

Josquin:
That couldn't be farther from the truth.

Exactly so. A century ago few of us would have had the opportunity or resources to experience great classical music except on infrequent occasions. We would have to play an instrument ourselves, or have access to major urban centers for live performances, and of course would have needed the means to attend such performances.

By comparison: twenty years ago, a PBS Met Opera broadcast of Boheme with Pavarotti had 3 million TV viewers; and starting just last year, the Met's innovative HDTV broadcasts are filling movie houses nation- and worldwide. Thanks to technology, the opportunity to experience "our prized Classical music" is available to more "regular people" than ever. And most of us who do experience it are "regular people" as well. If I had lived in 1804 as a peasant in Vienna, I would have had not the slightest chance to hear the Eroica, which was first performed in an aristocrat's palace to an audience of maybe 50. Today I and anyone else who wants to can easily hear any number of fine recordings, and it's not hard to find live performances as well.

Classical music - the real stuff, that is - may not be for everybody, but everybody who wants to find it is more than welcome to join.