Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise

[Madiel]

Excellent. Thanks!

The texts are a big plus. I've got Previn's account of symphony no.13, but it didn't come with texts. The first time I listened to it, I liked it but I only had a vague idea of what was going on. The second time, I had the Russian transliteration and an English translation in front of me thanks to the internet, and the Anne Frank passage in the first movement sent shivers up and down my spine.

[snyprrr]

I started reading this thread at page 1...

...parts of it are hilarious. There's some calm, measured posting, but there's also all sorts of vicious sniping and culture wars and sonic arguments and...

...then I got to page 46, where snyprrr says he's read the thread from the beginning and declares it NOT VERY HELPFUL! That cracked me up.

I note that there's another 16 pages since then, in the space of a couple of months. Are they going to be helpful pages? *makes cup of tea*

BIG LOLZ!

I think I've drained every last drop of patience from Karl and Sarge!

My inquiry is always sonic. I assume everyone has the music burning in their lions and the only thing we want  is the clearest channel for all the good stuff and none of the bad stuff to pass from our ears and into our beings.

I think some of those charts I posted might be helpful,... and there are a lot of quirky comments by a LOT of people (in 16 Pages!). And we've covered most of the Symphonies and Concertos of import.

For instance, if you're looking at Jansons, according to 'The Will of the Thread'. his 13 and 8 get Absolute High Marks, 15 and the second 5th also, 2/12, and his 4th... then 10, 6/9, 7, 3/14, 11,... and, in the cellar (no one likes it) is his Berlin 1st.

Haitink, also, has the Highest Recommends for the 13th and 8th. Perhaps his weakest for you is his 14th with the translations.


I recommend going through all the Amazon Reviews as well... Santa Fe Listener you'll get to know, haha... but, i find him, and a lot of the sceptics, quite reliable. I place so much more weight on a single bad review rather than ten gushers. One example would be when everyone says this so-and-so is "the best recording ever" what they mean is that it is one of those new LSO 'live' recordings that has a hatefully wide dynamic range that will force you into volume knob back-and-forth mode. So, I won't get any modern 'live' albums- the old definition of a 'live' recording seemed to yield much more pleasing results to these ears (Lenny59 5th).

Take some chances on total dark horses (one offs)- 16 Pages ago Rostropovich's Cycle had a horrible reputation in my memory, but he's got some maybe First Choices imo. (1/9, 2/3, 4, 5DDG, 14, 15)

i'M SURE THE REGULARS WANT SOMEONE ELSE ASKING QUESTIONS FOR A WHILE!


When you can snatch the melody from the third movement of the fourth symphony, then you have attained true... uh... yea... mm...

[snyprrr]

Solti

recorded two 9s

one with Vienna

one with Canegie... both 'live' I believe?...



Does anyone have the direct compare?

I listened to the samples for both. Why would you want VIENNA playing the 9th? (or, DSCH in general) How can they possibly play such an unbuttoned work without smoothing it out? I listened to the Lenny Vienna 9 samples, and there too they sound just "too" good, or polished, or lush. I mean, sure, I'd like to hear the work nice and clear like that, but... isn't something always missing from a Vienna/DSCH performance? I looked at their Discography, and what small amount of stuff there is doesn't strike me as Definitive. Solti 5 and 9, Jansons 5, Lenny 6 and 9... I forget what else (Celibidache 7?). All of those recordings have been variously criticized for "too much perfection" (which isn't really perfection at all, is it?)- perhaps if they were to play one of the more deathly serious, such as 8, perhaps?

Berlin, too, was criticized in Rattle's 1st, for the same reason.

So, anyhow...

Solti's 9th with the Carnegie pick-up band is a wholly other matter apparently. The samples reveal soooo much more character than the perfect Vienna that it truly is night and day. Perhaps both would be good as foils to each other, but the Carnegie definitely seems to want a listen.


So, I also tried a compare of samples between Solti's Vienna 5 and Jansons's Vienna 5. Again, the sheer perfection of beauty of sound could almost be called a distraction, one wonders? jansons's recording is the more wonderful, though both are 'live'. Both conductors garner a bit of criticism, but, one wonders in the Jansons how much spectacularly sumptuous playing and sound can overcome interpretation. One is quite tempted to try Vienna in DSCH, but one then sometimes feels as though they are a brightly coloured mushroom, and one is again sceptical.

However, I would like to hear Vienna in the Chamber Symphony 110a. That would certainly be the most ritz that piece has ever gotten.

[Madiel]

BIG LOLZ!

I think I've drained every last drop of patience from Karl and Sarge!

My inquiry is always sonic. I assume everyone has the music burning in their lions and the only thing we want  is the clearest channel for all the good stuff and none of the bad stuff to pass from our ears and into our beings.

I think some of those charts I posted might be helpful,... and there are a lot of quirky comments by a LOT of people (in 16 Pages!). And we've covered most of the Symphonies and Concertos of import.

For instance, if you're looking at Jansons, according to 'The Will of the Thread'. his 13 and 8 get Absolute High Marks, 15 and the second 5th also, 2/12, and his 4th... then 10, 6/9, 7, 3/14, 11,... and, in the cellar (no one likes it) is his Berlin 1st.

Haitink, also, has the Highest Recommends for the 13th and 8th. Perhaps his weakest for you is his 14th with the translations.


I recommend going through all the Amazon Reviews as well... Santa Fe Listener you'll get to know, haha... but, i find him, and a lot of the sceptics, quite reliable. I place so much more weight on a single bad review rather than ten gushers. One example would be when everyone says this so-and-so is "the best recording ever" what they mean is that it is one of those new LSO 'live' recordings that has a hatefully wide dynamic range that will force you into volume knob back-and-forth mode. So, I won't get any modern 'live' albums- the old definition of a 'live' recording seemed to yield much more pleasing results to these ears (Lenny59 5th).

Take some chances on total dark horses (one offs)- 16 Pages ago Rostropovich's Cycle had a horrible reputation in my memory, but he's got some maybe First Choices imo. (1/9, 2/3, 4, 5DDG, 14, 15)

i'M SURE THE REGULARS WANT SOMEONE ELSE ASKING QUESTIONS FOR A WHILE!


When you can snatch the melody from the third movement of the fourth symphony, then you have attained true... uh... yea... mm...

Oh, don't worry, I'm well aware of both your obsession with sonics and the incredibly fine detail of some of your reasons for marking down particular recordings.

The sonics, I do pay attention to (but not anything like to the same extent as you). The detailed readings... well, unlike you I'm usually looking for 1 version of things, and most of those things are pieces I don't already know. I'll be a little pickier about piano works I learned to play myself over the years, but beyond that if someone doesn't nail the little clarinet passage halfway through the 2nd movement, I'm not going to notice because I don't have previous knowledge of the little clarinet passage halfway through the 2nd movement that would give me an idea of what it means to 'nail it'.

I may well learn to love particular individual moments, but that's only going to happen AFTER I've got to know a work through a recording (to pick a recent example, anyone who fails to make enough of the last blare of brass in Sibelius' 4th is now going to be a disappointment, because I love what Ashkenazy does with it in the one recording I already have).  With Shostakovich symphonies I've only got Previn's 10th and 13th, and I haven't listened to them often enough to feel really familiar and to have much in the way of 'favourite moments that other recordings must live up to'. I did have a Naxos CD with the 15th and... either the 2nd or 3rd, I forget which... but it's location is lost in the mists of time and it's been so many years since I've heard it I have virtually no recollection.

I am, in short, largely a clean slate for this music. Which I'm well aware makes me a complete oddity in the world of this forum. I'm used to being a complete oddity in the world of this forum.

(Another reason for enjoying Holmboe - hardly ever different recordings to choose from...)

[Karl Henning]

BIG LOLZ!

I think I've drained every last drop of patience from Karl and Sarge!

My inquiry is always sonic. I assume everyone has the music burning in their lions and the only thing we want  is the clearest channel for all the good stuff and none of the bad stuff to pass from our ears and into our beings.

I think some of those charts I posted might be helpful,... and there are a lot of quirky comments by a LOT of people (in 16 Pages!). And we've covered most of the Symphonies and Concertos of import.

For instance, if you're looking at Jansons, according to 'The Will of the Thread'. his 13 and 8 get Absolute High Marks, 15 and the second 5th also, 2/12, and his 4th... then 10, 6/9, 7, 3/14, 11,... and, in the cellar (no one likes it) is his Berlin 1st.

Haitink, also, has the Highest Recommends for the 13th and 8th. Perhaps his weakest for you is his 14th with the translations.


I recommend going through all the Amazon Reviews as well... Santa Fe Listener you'll get to know, haha... but, i find him, and a lot of the sceptics, quite reliable. I place so much more weight on a single bad review rather than ten gushers. One example would be when everyone says this so-and-so is "the best recording ever" what they mean is that it is one of those new LSO 'live' recordings that has a hatefully wide dynamic range that will force you into volume knob back-and-forth mode. So, I won't get any modern 'live' albums- the old definition of a 'live' recording seemed to yield much more pleasing results to these ears (Lenny59 5th).

Take some chances on total dark horses (one offs)- 16 Pages ago Rostropovich's Cycle had a horrible reputation in my memory, but he's got some maybe First Choices imo. (1/9, 2/3, 4, 5DDG, 14, 15)

i'M SURE THE REGULARS WANT SOMEONE ELSE ASKING QUESTIONS FOR A WHILE!


When you can snatch the melody from the third movement of the fourth symphony, then you have attained true... uh... yea... mm...

Are you coming around at all yet on the Second and/or Third?  Are you considering at all the set conducting by the composer's son?

[Karl Henning]

3. Symphony No.14 is in Russian, right? I don't know that many conductors go for the alternative German or multilingual versions, but I want Russian.

I don't know of a German version;  at least, the score I have seen sets the source languages, and has some alternative rhythms for Russian translation of the non-Russian texts (i.e., all but the Küchelbecker).

[Madiel]

I don't know of a German version;  at least, the score I have seen sets the source languages, and has some alternative rhythms for Russian translation of the non-Russian texts (i.e., all but the Küchelbecker).

Well, from the information I've seen the score is showing you the alternative version, with the all-Russian one being what Shostakovich originally set. He did approve the multilingual one, though.

[Karl Henning]

Well, from the information I've seen the score is showing you the alternative version, with the all-Russian one being what Shostakovich originally set. He did approve the multilingual one, though.

Of course!

[snyprrr]

Are you coming around at all yet on the Second and/or Third?  Are you considering at all the set conducting by the composer's son?

I1) t's only been a week! Haitink, Jarvi, or Rostropovich?

2) I'VE considered it; my wallet said, I caaan't.

[snyprrr]

Chamber Symphony for Strings Op.100a arr. Barshai


Not even a piece I even care for, but, due to DSCHMania I'm having to give it a go. I had it on Lazarev's 14th, and, already my perceptions were skewed. As it turns out, Lazarev's is by far the slowest on record that I sampled, and has an amazing lack of tension and frisson. I actually thought it should have been slower, but then I saw that everyone else is quite quick in comparison.

The are MANY recordings of this piece now, so many in fact that if one were looking for the 'Classic' rendition, where would one go? Barshai on DDG? Boughton on Nimbus? Janson's Vienna? Perhaps couplings will be the key, but what if the performance in sub-par? Kissin/Spivakov?

Who cares?

I was also listening to Ashkenazy, who was a vast improvement on Lazarev, at least by playing the regular tempos. But I yearned for the 'Unison' that soandso was talking about, and I could only imagine that coming from Vienna or Berlin, and I don't know of a Berlin. Still, is Vienna too prettty for the piece?


Fact is, it is such a Masterpiece, so ubiquitous, that it has grown tiresome, but it is still on of the All-Time Great Autobiographical Scores. I agree that someone should just add or subtract strings at will to get a perfect mix (this piece can sound uniquely thick and turgid and engorged with its own knottiness- not a pleasant mix, a potential for awful). No one has yet recorded a version meant for the home listener. (how about Kantorow on Denon?- sonics should be out of this world?)

Anyhow, I grow tired of writing on it... zzZzzzz...

[Karl Henning]

Jeffrey (I believe) and I have said it before:  I think that, on balance, the piece loses something in the translation to full string choir.  Sure, the Largo movements sing a bit throatier (which can be made a musical asset, though I am content to hear the whole piece as a quartet), but the Allegro molto (in particular) loses too much of its intrinsic agility.

[North Star]

Jeffrey (I believe) and I have said it before:  I think that, on balance, the piece loses something in the translation to full string choir.  Sure, the Largo movements sing a bit throatier (which can be made a musical asset, though I am content to hear the whole piece as a quartet), but the Allegro molto (in particular) loses too much of its intrinsic agility.

G'day, Karl!

Agreed, but then again, I tend to always prefer the smaller groups, in Verklärte Nacht, Metamorphosen, in Baroque & Classical era orchestral music, and one voice per part Bach & Renaissance polyphony. But here in particular the fast movement suffers too much in arrangements to larger forces.

[Karl Henning]

Oh, they don't perform Metamorphosen with more than one to a part, do they?  Considering how sumptuous R. Strauss's scores typically are, that's a sharp irony.

And I am with you, of course, in preferring Verklärte Nacht as a sextet.  Still, the Craft and Boulez recordings of the string orchestra version are a guilty-ish pleasure 

[North Star]

Oh, they don't perform Metamorphosen with more than one to a part, do they?  Considering how sumptuous R. Strauss's scores typically are, that's a sharp irony.

And I am with you, of course, in preferring Verklärte Nacht as a sextet.  Still, the Craft and Boulez recordings of the string orchestra version are a guilty-ish pleasure 

I meant the septet short score, discovered in 1990. (see the liner notes to Nash Ensemble's recording).

And I certainly share that guilty pleasure (though mine is the first Holliger recording)

[Karl Henning]

I meant the septet short score, discovered in 1990. (see the liner notes to Nash Ensemble's recording).

Oh!  Very nice (I just listened to the sample).

[snyprrr]

Jeffrey (I believe) and I have said it before:  I think that, on balance, the piece loses something in the translation to full string choir.  Sure, the Largo movements sing a bit throatier (which can be made a musical asset, though I am content to hear the whole piece as a quartet), but the Allegro molto (in particular) loses too much of its intrinsic agility.

G'day, Karl!

Agreed, but then again, I tend to always prefer the smaller groups, in Verklärte Nacht, Metamorphosen, in Baroque & Classical era orchestral music, and one voice per part Bach & Renaissance polyphony. But here in particular the fast movement suffers too much in arrangements to larger forces.

Yea, I was looking at the speakers during the

G'day, Karl!

Agreed, but then again, I tend to always prefer the smaller groups, in Verklärte Nacht, Metamorphosen, in Baroque & Classical era orchestral music, and one voice per part Bach & Renaissance polyphony. But here in particular the fast movement suffers too much in arrangements to larger forces.

'

Yea, I was looking at the speakers during the 'Allegro molto' like, WTF? is thaaat? It just doesn't work unless the ensemble is a razor's knife edge- which is why I'd at least like to hear the Vienna SO-... mm?... eh? I mean,if the piece has gotten a better treatment somewhere, I'd at least like to hear it (I can't remember what the Barshai/DDG sounded like; I know the library has the Rachlevsky... which, btw, has the quickest timings of anyone (and comes with Rachlevsky's 'trreatment' of the SQ 15)).

Anyhow,... agreed. I have absolutely no desire to entertain the other four arrangements.

[snyprrr]

Symphony No.1 Op.10

I got both Lennys for this one (I'd also like to get Ormandy) because "they" said he brought out the creepiness, made it sound more gothic, and, having totally forgotten the piece, convinced me that the earlier Lenny was the way to go. At first I didn't understand DSCH's fragmented opening, but, I sensed Shosty's "building blocks", and by the end of the first movement I felt the same way as after the 4th- Shosty's a straight up 'Modernist' (in the Honegger meaning).

I'm gonna lay this on you- you know exactly WHO I heard here? EARLY PETTERSSON! Can't you hear the Honegger influence here in the 1st? (which transfers to Pettersson) The fact is, this is music of the roaring '20s, and automobiles, and modern stuff baby! Very urbane, cosmopolitan, witty, jazzy- FRENCH!

I would have liked to have this with the PC1, but the Jansons is the only one I know of at the moment and he gets the worst marks for his 1st with Berlin. Either way, both pieces would work wonders together, imo. Why there'd by ANY criticism in the 1st's general direction is beyond me, unless they think DSCH is just too cosmopolitan? I say it's one of my favourite Shostys bar none-... meaning, schmeaning... LOVE IT!

[aukhawk]

I hear Prokofiev.  However despite that (because I don't much like Prokofiev's orchestral stuff) the 1st is my favourite symphony, along with the 15th.   Caetani is terrific in the 1st, and Ormandy indispensible.  Others I've tried (Bernstein, Celidibache, Haitink, Gergiev, Sanderling) don't really add anything.

[Karl Henning]

I hear Prokofiev.

I had not, but now that you say it, that opening muted trumpet gesture does feel like an overlap with Sergei Sergeyevich.  Well, better still, a common ground with (additionally) Stravinsky (especially Petrushka, which was an early and enduring influence for Dmitri Dmitriyevich).  I find the First a wonderful "cocktail":  It's young, bold, assured, wears its several influences well, and yet also belongs to the young composer himself.

[Karl Henning]

(because I don't much like Prokofiev's orchestral stuff)

You don't like L'enfant prodigue?  I despair of you!