J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Marc]

Premont, thanks for this review!
I didn't expect anyone to guess it right, although one or two Dutchies around here might know or remember his name.

I've 'mentioned' this disc twice before on this board:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg369395.html#msg369395

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg470431.html#msg470431



The organist is Dutch indeed: Klaas Jan Mulder (1930-2008), son of a vicar. His first love was the piano, and he wanted to become a concert pianist, but then he also had to perform on Sundays, which was kinda problematic.
So eventually he became an organist.

He was very popular among protestant people, especially loved for his improvisations on psalms and chorales. He was broadcasted many times by the Dutch Evangelical broadcoasting corporation (EO).
He wasn't part of the HIP-school, in fact, in some interviews he stated that HIP was nonsense. He did not play Bach nor baroque often in concert, either.

He did play BWV 565 and other organ classics with Ton Scherpenzeel, member of the symfonic rock band Kayak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayak_(band)
Mulder and Scherpenzeel arranged popular classical tunes for synthesizer, organ and percussion. The name of this band was KAJEM.

So, yes: he's Dutch, he was born before 1950, not really HIP, but maybe more HIP-influenced than he realized himself .
I don't think it's a live performance, because the entire disc is totally 'cough-free'. In Bach, this was probably the best Mulder had to offer.

Your description of the intrument is very accurate IMHO, but I have to say: it is the Zwolle Schnitger organ, sorry 'bout that. Even though the recording might not be first rate, I think there have been more problematic recordings of this instrument, f.i. with Michel Chapuis and Charles de Wolff.

I myself do not consider this Bach playing extremely good. I think it's too stiff and mechanical in its phrasing and articulating. Nevertheless, thanks to its intensity, it's quite a rousing performance.

[Lethevich]

Premont, I am in awe of your analytical skill in this field, and your post was a joy to read.

[Marc]

Premont, I am in awe of your analytical skill in this field, and your post was a joy to read.

Ditto!

[Marc]

[....]
To begin with the organ.It sounds like a great North German baroque organ with its rather sharp mixtures and strong pedal reeds. The sound quality of the recording is not first rate so it is difficult to "get" the individuality of the  organ. It might well be the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of St. Martini / Groningen, which is tuned about  the pitch of the mystery recording (a1 = ca 466). Another possibility is the Müller organ in Jacobijnerkerk. Leeuwarden (pitch a1 = 460) but this is tuned in equal temperament, something I do not think the mystery organ is. And there are several other possibilities (not the Harlem, Zwolle or Alkmaar though - nor does the sound remind me of the St.Jacobi/Hamburg organ)
[....]

Just listened to Michael Murray's performance of BWV 735 Valet will ich dir geben, also on the Schnitger organ in Zwolle. Indeed a more characterized recording of this instrument. The Mulder recording sounds much darker, which makes it even more difficult to guess.

Here's some info about this famous organ, which is very highly tuned (a' = 502 Hz):

http://ftp.wu-wien.ac.at/pub/earlym-l/organs/schnitger.st-michaelskerk.zwolle.-.nl.1721

[prémont]

Thanks for your kind words, Marc, Lethe and Sonic Man (in another thread)

My reason for excluding the Zwolle organ was not the sound of the mystery organ as such, but the fact that the pitch of this organ is one tone higher than a1 = 440. It was restored to that state in1955.  Actually I thought of the possibility of the Zwolle organ, but a comparison with the Charles de Wolff recording told me that the pitch of his recording was almost a halftone higher than that of the mystery organ.

Marc, do you know the year of the Mulder recording?

[Marc]

Thanks for your kind words, Marc, Lethe and Sonic Man (in another thread)

My reason for excluding the Zwolle organ was not the sound of the mystery organ as such, but the fact that the pitch of this organ is one tone higher than a1 = 440. It was restored to that state in1955.  Actually I thought of the possibility of the Zwolle organ, but a comparison with the Charles de Wolff recording told me that the pitch of his recording was almost a halftone higher than that of the mystery organ.

Marc, do you know the year of the Mulder recording?

Strange.
It was recorded in 2001, and launched in 2002.
Flentrop restored the high pitch in 1955. There were some smaller revisions of the instrument in 1999 and in 2008, both by Flentrop again, but AFAIK the high pitch remained unaltered.

[Marc]

Just checked the first bars of BWV 548 with Michael Murray on the Zwolle organ: same pitch as Mulder.
So: could the problem be De Wolff's recording?
Or: maybe not the recording, but the remastering?

EDIT:
just checked the first bars of Charles de Wolff, too.
Premont, to my ears it's the same pitch again .... who of us should check the ear specialist?

[prémont]

Just checked the first bars of BWV 548 with Michael Murray on the Zwolle organ: same pitch as Mulder.
So: could the problem be De Wolff's recording?
Or: maybe not the recording, but the remastering?

EDIT:
just checked the first bars of Charles de Wolff, too.
Premont, to my ears it's the same pitch again .... who of us should check the ear specialist?

Well I have not got perfect pitch, but I use my garklein to establish the pitch. In my ears the Mulder sounds in f-minor and the Wolff (the 548) in f sharp minor. I shall repeat the operation to morrow, can not do it  now for the neighbours.

[prémont]

Strange.
It was recorded in 2001, and launched in 2002.
Flentrop restored the high pitch in 1955. There were some smaller revisions of the instrument in 1999 and in 2008, both by Flentrop again, but AFAIK the high pitch remained unaltered.

So since 1955 the e-minor should sound in f sharp minor.

[Marc]

Well I have not got perfect pitch, but I use my garklein to establish the pitch. In my ears the Mulder sounds in f-minor and the Wolff (the 548) in f sharp minor. I shall repeat the operation to morrow, can not do it  now for the neighbours.

Understood.
It's time for bed anyhow.

This is the 'amateur' way I checked it: listened to the first bars of De Wolff (using headphones), kept on humming them (that's how I remembered my notes when I sang in choirs, too ), and then listened to Mulder: even though the sound was deeper, my humming perfectly 'fitted'.
To be certain, I checked it several times this way, including the Murray beginning.

[Marc]

BTW: how dull Murray's performance is. Dull, dull, dull .... and slow and sloppy.
His Zwolle disc delivers good chorales, an acceptable BWV 534 in F-minor (or is it? ), but the great works BWV 532, 540 and 548: dull, dull, dull.

[prémont]

BTW: how dull Murray's performance is. Dull, dull, dull .... and slow and sloppy.
His Zwolle disc delivers good chorales, an acceptable BWV 534 in F-minor (or is it? ), but the great works BWV 532, 540 and 548: dull, dull, dull.

Can not contradict this. I never listen to him anymore.

[Bulldog]

BTW: how dull Murray's performance is. Dull, dull, dull .... and slow and sloppy.
His Zwolle disc delivers good chorales, an acceptable BWV 534 in F-minor (or is it? ), but the great works BWV 532, 540 and 548: dull, dull, dull.

I agree completely.  Leaving aside the chorales, Murray's slow, solemn and heavy interpretations are unappealing.

[prémont]

This is the 'amateur' way I checked it: listened to the first bars of De Wolff (using headphones), kept on humming them (that's how I remembered my notes when I sang in choirs, too ), and then listened to Mulder: even though the sound was deeper, my humming perfectly 'fitted'.
To be certain, I checked it several times this way, including the Murray beginning.

Now I have listened to three different recordings on the Zwolle organ of Prel.&Fugue e-minor BWV 548 (Mulder, De Wolff and Chapuis), and you are right, they all sound in f sharp minor. I do not know how I got the Mulder in f-minor, making me exclude the Zwolle organ by mistake.

But now a little puzzle for you. Præl.&Fugue c-minor BWV 546. Who plays - and where?
First link mp3, second link wav (considerably better sound).

http://www.mediafire.com/?5hynn83z7m4d0m2

http://www.mediafire.com/?2m6g1e1gp8jyt3w

[Marc]

Now I have listened to three different recordings on the Zwolle organ of Prel.&Fugue e-minor BWV 548 (Mulder, De Wolff and Chapuis), and you are right, they all sound in f sharp minor. I do not know how I got the Mulder in f-minor, making me exclude the Zwolle organ by mistake.

But now a little puzzle for you. Præl.&Fugue c-minor BWV 546. Who plays - and where?
First link mp3, second link wav (considerably better sound).

http://www.mediafire.com/?5hynn83z7m4d0m2

http://www.mediafire.com/?2m6g1e1gp8jyt3w

As I begin writing this, I'm listening to the mp3 and the prelude is still going on, just at the sort of 'da capo' point. I must say: acoustics a bit too spatial maybe, but this is a very impressive and almost titanic performance of this great piece and in such a case the cathedral recording sound is adding something extra to the atmosphere.
It reminds me of the Van Doeselaar-disc of that cheap Brilliant boxset Famous Dutch organs, playing the Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkmaar.

Now the fugue has started and the organist remains playing organo pleno, which I like very much in pieces like this. So the organist is probably not someone of the 'older' generation. Whomever he/she is, I'm most surely enjoying it! .... It could be M-C Alain, too. She's also famous for her indefatigable approach in Bach's non-liturgic works. I dunno about her 3rd integral, maybe this one is part of it?

Now the mid-section of the fugue has started, probably the 'weakest' part of the composition, and again there is no hesitation or drawback at all: yummie!

Ah, the final bars are coming, but no real ritenuto, no romantic efforts to make them even more impressive .... again I have to say, I like this interpretation very much! I most definitely want to listen to this one again. So now I'm starting the wave-version: downloading has just finished.

Indeed this a better sound, less hollow, and the sound of the organ is more full-flavoured. I'm enjoying it tremendously, again.

As I mentioned, at first it reminded me of Van Doeselaar playing a titanic Bach in the Laurenskerk of Alkmaar .... but in most cases Van Doeselaar uses more vivid phrasing, and BWV 546 isn't part of that Brilliant disc, if I remember well. OTOH, even though Van Doeselaar is definitely HIP-influenced, he also plays a lot of 19th and 20th century music, so he never plays baroque like a nervous far too frisky jump-along.
If it's really Leo van D., I'm even more sorry I missed his concert last year in the Martini; well, life is hard and then you die.

I think the piece is played a bit too slow for other renowned organists like Beekman, Kooiman, Van Oortmerssen, Corti or Ritchie. And the recording is a bit too spatial to make someone like Knud Vad possible. His integral isn't that spatial (if I remember correctly) and he plays even more legato and less vivid.

Piet Kee could also be a possibility. Or one of his pupils, like Cor Ardesch. I know you have one disc by Ardesch, but that's one with a.o. BWV 545, and with a darker sounding organ.
All in all, I think you did us a great pleasure  by uploading a performance by a well-informed Dutch organist (maybe German or Scandinavian, maybe even of the MC Alain-school or the Italian 'Andrea Marcon' way of playing), who likes his/her Bach to be played with tremendous power, telling us a story aus einem Guß with tempi not too fast.

Even though it could well be a very good neo-baroque organ, my guess is that it's a historic organ, very well restored, in a rather large church or cathedral. It's very difficult to guess if it's a Schnitger (school) or a Silbermann (school), although the principal stops sound prominent (especially audible in the wave-version) which would make a Schnitger more possible.

I'm really hesitating about this all .... but one should stay at one's first thought, so I guess it's either Van Doeselaar or Piet Kee, because I remember some very titanic performances of Bach's free works by them. The organ would then be Haarlem or Alkmaar, both North-German organs in large churches .... but you're probably fooling us with some ukendte Danske musiker.

[Marc]

Listening to this performance again, even though I should be in bed right now .... but it doesn't bore me at all. It's a BWV 546 like I want it to be played.
Also I'm aware of more vivid articularing now in the fugue, whilst the prelude has got some more legato moments. No haste at all during this fugue, it's wonderfully played!

Also just checked fast and furiously my collection .... even though that's impossible because of the mess.
I found one recording by Piet Kee, which is just a tad faster (Chandos, now Brilliant: Kee playing Bach & Buxtehude in Alkmaar). But I only found three discs of Van Doeselaar: the above-mentioned disc in Alkmaar, a disc recorded in Leens (a beautiful rendering, played on the Hinsz organ) and a more recent one in Kampen with Fantasias (both liturgic and free), but no BWV 546.
I'm beginning to doubt .... should have waited a day. Big Mouth stroke again, I guess.

EDIT: pitch of Kee is the same as the organ of Premont's 'mystery recording', which means it could well be the Van Hagerbeer/Schnitger organ of the Laurenskerk, Alkmaar, NL. Sound of the organ is almost the same, though the Chandos recording (Kee) is more prominent.

[Marc]

Hope I will be fit tomorrow, have to catch the early train.
The similarity between Premont's file and the Kee recording is striking, during the first bars I would almost say they're the same. But the unknown organist is playing the piece in a less 'angular' way than Kee does. BTW: I do like Kee's recording very much, too, and I'm uploading it right now .... with this result:

http://www.mediafire.com/?b7rdm38q2230s84

Just to have fun and compare, and to check if these organs really are the same. I say: they are.

[prémont]

It reminds me of the Van Doeselaar-disc of that cheap Brilliant boxset Famous Dutch organs, playing the Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkmaar.

As I mentioned, at first it reminded me of Van Doeselaar playing a titanic Bach in the Laurenskerk of Alkmaar ....

I think the piece is played a bit too slow for other renowned organists like Beekman, Kooiman, Van Oortmerssen, Corti or Ritchie.

I am very impressed, that your first association is the right one. Bravo, it is indeed van Doeselaar in Alkmaar.

Piet Kee could also be a possibility

Yes certainly, in one of his better moments.

Even though it could well be a very good neo-baroque organ, my guess is that it's a historic organ, very well restored, in a rather large church or cathedral. It's very difficult to guess if it's a Schnitger (school) or a Silbermann (school), although the principal stops sound prominent (especially audible in the wave-version) which would make a Schnitger more possible.

One of the Alkmaar organ´s specific traits is the prominent principals as you describe it - and the low sounding Sesquialteras (which Walcha uses ather much).

I chose this recording because I am deeply impressed by it as am  by all van Doeselaar´s Bach. On the same CD are some Chorale preludes by Bach (BWV 600, 655, 709 and 721) from a collection Het Historische Orgel in Nederland vol.5.

[Marc]

After I 'discovered' the Kee disc in my collection and listened to it, I was pretty sure it was the organ of Alkmaar.
And whilst listening to your upload the first time, the word titanic came to mind rather quickly. And then I remembered your description, once upon a long ago, of Van Doeselaar's playing of that first disc of the Brilliant Classics set, which you called titanic. Dunno if it was in this thread, though, or in a PM, or at some other forum. But that's basically how Van Doeselaar's name 'bursted' into my head.
So, Premont, in a way, I own this little success to you.

But in the end it's really a wild guessing game with those names. And this time I was lucky.
What I truly enjoyed doing was listening behind my PC, with headphones, and writing my first associations and then listen again and again, and eventually trying to draw some conclusion. I'm not very good in hearing and describing all those registers and different manuals, but after two years of repeated organ listening some of the 'organ secrets' are less 'secret' to me. I'm happy that I rediscovered one of my beloved instruments of my youth. I realize it sounds a bit sentimental, but there it is. And I'm also happy that a certain mister J.S. Bach once lived and composed .... no real surprise there I suppose.

Add this: is this disc part of that huge multiple boxset including a book about Dutch organ history? Because I have that one, too. Bought it two years ago for about € 50,-- or something (last issue in that particular shop, slightly damaged book). I should search for that one again, because I only listened to one or two discs, mainly with organs from the province of Groningen. Maybe I should quit buying all those organ discs and start to really listen to them!
But not today, because it's really time for bed!

This is Member Marcus sayin' good night to yez all, and God bless yez. 0:)

[prémont]

The similarity between Premont's file and the Kee recording is striking, during the first bars I would almost say they're the same..

.. to check if these organs really are the same. I say: they are.

My ear tells me, that there is a very small difference in the pitch of these two recordings, probably less than 5 Hz (judged from a1), but this is not more than what may happen because of differences in room temperature.