J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Marc]

My ear tells me, that there is a very small difference in the pitch of these two recordings, probably less than 5 Hz (judged from a1), but this is not more than what may happen because of differences in room temperature.

Dear me, I must admit I cannot hear that!
Never mind, it's a beautiful instrument anyway.

Here's a nice pic .... yummy:

[prémont]

I think you showed a fine aural memory both concerning the organ sound as such and the impact of the interpretation.

I am not sure if it is the same organ box as yours. Mine (12 CDs) is released by het Nationaal Institut voor de Orgelkunst.

[Marc]

I think you showed a fine aural memory both concerning the organ sound as such and the impact of the interpretation.

I am not sure if it is the same organ box as yours. Mine (12 CDs) is released by het Nationaal Institut voor de Orgelkunst.

Found it.
It's a different box: 20 cd's, Orgels in Nederland, compilated by Okke Dijkhuizen. Van Doeselaar's BWV 546 is also part of it, though! (Lucky me.)
Probably there are some 'overlaps' with your set.

[prémont]

Found it.
It's a different box: 20 cd's, Orgels in Nederland, compilated by Okke Dijkhuizen. Van Doeselaar's BWV 546 is also part of it, though! (Lucky me.)
Probably there are some 'overlaps' with your set.

I own that box too. Yes, there are some overlaps, but not that many.

[Mandryka]

Anyone heard this one? What's it like?


[asin]B000EB7T4A[/asin]

[Marc]

Anyone heard this one? What's it like?
[Paul Jacobs plays Bach]

I once saw and listened to a clip with Jacobs playing the Sinfonia of Cantata BWV 29 on a XXL mega organ, which I did not appreciate that much.
But that's all.
I've ordered this particular disc at the library and in about two weeks I might have an opinion about it.

[Mandryka]

I once saw and listened to a clip with Jacobs playing the Sinfonia of Cantata BWV 29 on a XXL mega organ, which I did not appreciate that much.
But that's all.
I've ordered this particular disc at the library and in about two weeks I might have an opinion about it.

Thanks --  if you can post your response I'd appreciate it. Even if it's just a word or two.

[Marc]

One of my favourite chorale arrangement compositions for organ is BWV 686 Aus tiefer Not schrei' ich zu dir, which belongs to the Third Part of Bach's Clavier-Übung. It gives me the shivers.
Ton Koopman's performance, played on the great Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom, is very impressive.

And what about these three?

http://www.mediafire.com/?6r512bpcj273492

http://www.mediafire.com/?2w82izcaw652vkn

http://www.mediafire.com/?2186wu184euuo02

My own opinions on these: one I very very much dislike, one I do like quite a lot, and one I feel have mixed feelings about, but is nevertheless dragging me into it entirely.

[Marc]

I uploaded Van Doeselaar's performance of BWV 546 again, ripped from the original large wave-file into a 320 kbps mp3-file. This one sounds better than the small mp3 that Premont uploaded before, but still doesn't take much time to download.

I hope Premont doesn't mind.

So, lad mig charme ham ved at tænke ham for at uploade det alligevel!

http://www.mediafire.com/?ixxzmehi4g40syf

[prémont]

I uploaded Van Doeselaar's performance of BWV 546 again, ripped from the original large wave-file into a 320 kbps mp3-file. This one sounds better than the small mp3 that Premont uploaded before, but still doesn't take much time to download.

I hope Premont doesn't mind.

Of course I do not mind.

So, lad mig charme ham ved at tænke ham for at uploade det alligevel!

Det var vist en værre gang Google-dansk, i alt fald er det lettere uforståeligt også for mig.

[prémont]

...BWV 686 Aus tiefer Not schrei' ich zu dir, which belongs to the Third Part of Bach's Clavier-Übung...

And what about these three?

http://www.mediafire.com/?6r512bpcj273492

http://www.mediafire.com/?2w82izcaw652vkn

http://www.mediafire.com/?2186wu184euuo02

I am working upon these. My first ideas proved wrong.

[Marc]

I am working upon these. My first ideas proved wrong.

Personally, I don't care if one mentions a name or not. Sure, it's a fun game, but I'm more interested what other people's opinions are about the performances.

But in this case, I'll wait with unfolding the mysteries.

[prémont]

Personally, I don't care if one mentions a name or not. Sure, it's a fun game, but I'm more interested what other people's opinions are about the performances.

But in this case, I'll wait with unfolding the mysteries.

My taste is probably not that different from yours.

No. one is IMO an example of an organist  trying to apply strict and dubious rules upon the music.  His articulation is absurdly short, and this makes the phrasing fall apart. The tempo is well chosen, but played in this way the piece appears distressingly breathless.  I do not like this kind of playing, which I feel lacks the stature and dignity, which this piece demands. The organ sounds like a historical North German instrument, of the Martini/Groningen variety. I do not know many organists playing in that way. Weinberger and Koopman share a tendency to rather short articulation but not at all to that degree. Chorzempa had a period about 1980 where he experimented with articulation on recordings and played on historical( often Dutch) organs,  but the recording in question is probably not that old. I think it displays the stylistic immaturity of a young or misguided musician.  He might even well be from the overseas.

No.two, on the other hand, is surely the interpretation of an old and mature musician. I have never heard this piece played so slow before (lasts more than 8 minutes), but played in this deliberate way and with relative legato the piece acquires an almost  titanic stature, and the time is well filled out.  This is very much to my taste. This is a large  organ, and considering  the fact  that the piece is an "organo pleno"- piece the sound of this organ  is a little milder and darker than I would expect from a Schnitger-type instrument, so I have considered other possibilities like the Treutmann organ / Kloster Grauhof or the Trost organ / Waltershausen.  I do not think possible candidates as to this kind of interpretation  like Piet Wiersma and van Doeselaar would play so excessively slow, and Gustav Leonhardt would probably play a little more detached.

No. three is a recording with great integrity and weight about the playing. Surely also a mature musician. But much depends upon the choice of organ, and with this organ the organo pleno sounds overloaded first and foremost because of "fat" reed sound. Add to this rather characterless principals and you have a post-Victorian English organ.  For some reason even some newer neo-baroque English organs suffer from this "fat" sound. So I think this is Peter Hurford (or his deputee).  It is not my preferred kind of interpretation,  but still listenable.

I may have got the order wrong, but there can be no doubt about which recordings I comment.

[Marc]

My taste is probably not that different from yours.

No, but maybe there are other members who would like to have a go?

No. one is IMO an example of an organist  trying to apply strict and dubious rules upon the music.  His articulation is absurdly short, and this makes the phrasing fall apart. The tempo is well chosen, but played in this way the piece appears distressingly breathless.  I do not like this kind of playing, which I feel lacks the stature and dignity, which this piece demands. The organ sounds like a historical North German instrument, of the Martini/Groningen variety. I do not know many organists playing in that way. Weinberger and Koopman share a tendency to rather short articulation but not at all to that degree. Chorzempa had a period about 1980 where he experimented with articulation on recordings and played on historical( often Dutch) organs,  but the recording in question is probably not that old. I think it displays the stylistic immaturity of a young or misguided musician.  He might even well be from the overseas.

No.two, on the other hand, is surely the interpretation of an old and mature musician. I have never heard this piece played so slow before (lasts more than 8 minutes), but played in this deliberate way and with relative legato the piece acquires an almost  titanic stature, and the time is well filled out.  This is very much to my taste. This is a large  organ, and considering  the fact  that the piece is an "organo pleno"- piece the sound of this organ  is a little milder and darker than I would expect from a Schnitger-type instrument, so I have considered other possibilities like the Treutmann organ / Kloster Grauhof or the Trost organ / Waltershausen.  I do not think possible candidates as to this kind of interpretation  like Piet Wiersma and van Doeselaar would play so excessively slow, and Gustav Leonhardt would probably play a little more detached.

No. three is a recording with great integrity and weight about the playing. Surely also a mature musician. But much depends upon the choice of organ, and with this organ the organo pleno sounds overloaded first and foremost because of "fat" reed sound. Add to this rather characterless principals and you have a post-Victorian English organ.  For some reason even some newer neo-baroque English organs suffer from this "fat" sound. So I think this is Peter Hurford (or his deputee).  It is not my preferred kind of interpretation,  but still listenable.

I may have got the order wrong, but there can be no doubt about which recordings I comment.

Have to do this from memory. Internet problems at da house.

Short reaction from the office:

The first mentioned is by Japanese Kei Koito. I absolutely do not like this kind of uneven hip-hop playing, especially not in a piece like this. If I remember well, she plays the Hinsz organ of the Bovenkerk in Kampen, NL.
The second mentioned is Cor van Wageningen, playing the Martini organ in Groningen. Even though I think it's played too much legato to my taste, I'm really dragged into this one. Slow tempo is OK in this piece. I only wish that the pedal chorale melody was more prominent sounding.
The last one is Werner Jacob, playing the Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom (Is that correct?). I think my opinion about this performance is more positive than yours, although one could indeed argue that it's kind of a middle-of-the-road interpretation.
I understand the reasons though why you picked Hurford, for his sometimes 'fat' sounding recordings.

[prémont]

No, but maybe there are other members who would like to have a go?

My thoughts too.

The first mentioned is by Japanese Kei Koito. I absolutely do not like this kind of uneven hip-hop playing, especially not in a piece like this. If I remember well, she plays the Hinsz organ of the Bovenkerk in Kampen, NL.
The second mentioned is Cor van Wageningen, playing the Martini organ in Groningen. Even though I think it's played too much legato to my taste, I'm really dragged into this one. Slow tempo is OK in this piece. I only wish that the pedal chorale melody was more prominent sounding.
The last one is Werner Jacob, playing the Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom (Is that correct?). I think my opinion about this performance is more positive than yours, although one could indeed argue that it's kind of a middle-of-the-road interpretation.
I understand the reasons though why you picked Hurford, for his sometimes 'fat' sounding recordings.

Half a year ago I acquired Kei Koito´s Bach vol.1 (Claves) BTW recorded on the Martini / Groningen organ. I found her playing musically undistinguished (but not irritating like her BWV 686), and did not find any reason to collect her upcoming integral, since I am not a blind completist, only half-blind. As you may figure out, the best about the recording is the organ.

Cor van Wageningen is totally unknown to me (certainly my loss). Too much legato maybe, but never-the-less a marvellous consistent and expressive interpretation. Individual without being idiosyncratic.

Concerning the third item: The G. Silbermann organ in Freiberger Dom has never been among my favorites. I do not like this pompous and fat sound which muddles the musical texture. The Silbermann in question made so many really beautiful sounding smaller organs, much more suited for displaying the polyphonic texture of Bach´s music (e.g. Fraureuth, Crostau and Reinhardtsgrimma) as the Berlin Classic´s set "Bach on Silbermann organs" documents in such a beautiful way. Tradition says, that Bach admired the Freiberg organ, and his participation in the construction of the great and pompous Hildebrand organ in Naumburg points to the posibillity, that he favoured or at least liked a sound like that, so the recording of the Clavierübung III on the Freiberg organ (something many others than Jacob have done) must probably be considerd authentic. BTW I was rather sure about Herford and did not do any "control-listening". Some of the similarity between Jacob and Hurford seems to me to be that their interpretations are conservative (rather strict pace, relative legato playing and "colourful" registrations) not surprising considering their age.

[Marc]

Half a year ago I acquired Kei Koito´s Bach vol.1 (Claves) BTW recorded on the Martini / Groningen organ. I found her playing musically undistinguished (but not irritating like her BWV 686), and did not find any reason to collect her upcoming integral, since I am not a blind completist, only half-blind. As you may figure out, the best about the recording is the organ.

Bought that Volume One last summer, but, as you said, there will be no purchase of volumes two et al.

Cor van Wageningen is totally unknown to me (certainly my loss).

There are almost too many Dutch organists.

(And historic organs, too!)

Too much legato maybe, but never-the-less a marvellous consistent and expressive interpretation. Individual without being idiosyncratic.

Yep.

Concerning the third item: The G. Silbermann organ in Freiberger Dom has never been among my favorites. I do not like this pompous and fat sound which muddles the musical texture. The Silbermann in question made so many really beautiful sounding smaller organs, much more suited for displaying the polyphonic texture of Bach´s music (e.g. Fraureuth, Crostau and Reinhardtsgrimma) as the Berlin Classic´s set "Bach on Silbermann organs" documents in such a beautiful way. Tradition says, that Bach admired the Freiberg organ, and his participation in the construction of the great and pompous Hildebrand organ in Naumburg points to the posibillity, that he favoured or at least liked a sound like that, so the recording of the Clavierübung III on the Freiberg organ (something many others than Jacob have done) must probably be considerd authentic. BTW I was rather sure about Herford and did not do any "control-listening". Some of the similarity between Jacob and Hurford seems to me to be that their interpretations are conservative (rather strict pace, relative legato playing and "colourful" registrations) not surprising considering their age.

Maybe the Silbermann in Freiberg's Sankt Petri is more to your likings?

Talking about the various organs is uncertain territory for me, but in Bach I think I prefer the brighter sound of the Schnitger school to the more 'granular' sound of the Silbermanns. But there are so many differences between all those instruments, it's really difficult to give an opinion about this.
I would like to add though that I also like the Joachim Wagner instruments that I've heard so far, particularly the organ in the Trondheim Cathedral and the one in the Brandenburger Dom.

On the latter, Edgar Krapp plays a fine BWV 686:



http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Clavier-Ubung-Praludium-Grosse-Choralbearbeitungen/dp/B000006LIZ/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1297277079&sr=1-6

[prémont]

There are almost too many Dutch organists.
(And historic organs, too!)

Oh no, the more the better.

Maybe the Silbermann in Freiberg's Sankt Petri is more to your likings?

Yes, much more.

Talking about the various organs is uncertain territory for me, but in Bach I think I prefer the brighter sound of the Schnitger school to the more 'granular' sound of the Silbermanns. But there are so many differences between all those instruments, it's really difficult to give an opinion about this.

The typical Arp Schnitger school organs are more suited to stylus phantasticus music (e.g. Buxtehude and Early Bach) when sonic brilliance is neded. For the more contemplative late Bach organ works (first and foremost the Choral settings) I think the darker sound of the organs of the G Silberman school works best.

I would like to add though that I also like the Joachim Wagner instruments that I've heard so far, particularly the organ in the Trondheim Cathedral and the one in the Brandenburger Dom.

Yes, and I would say that these belong the darker type, best suited for the late works (Bryndorf Leipzigchorales, Preston Clavierübung III et.c.)

On the latter, Edgar Krapp plays a fine BWV 686:

One of my recommendations in the first post of this very thread.

[Marc]

You're probably right about the similarities between the Silbermanns and the Wagners. And, come to think of it again, maybe I should have written that I preferred the Schnitgers in the free works, but appreciated the Silbermanns in the chorales very much.

In BWV 686, the rather 'hoarse' sound of the principals makes the piece even more moving: schrei zu dir.

Btw, I ordered the 'Little Organ Mass' by Krapp this week, played on another Wagner organ: the Marienkirche in Treuenbrietzen. Should be a good one, too.

[prémont]

You're probably right about the similarities between the Silbermanns and the Wagners.

Only a relative similarity compared to Schnitger´s.

In BWV 686, the rather 'hoarse' sound of the principals makes the piece even more moving: schrei zu dir.

I have to listen to this again very soon.

Btw, I ordered the 'Little Organ Mass' by Krapp this week, played on another Wagner organ: the Marienkirche in Treuenbrietzen. Should be a good one, too.

IMO equally good as the Brandenburg organ CD. A pity that Krapp has not recorded more Bach. Maybe his name is a liability.

[Marc]

[....] A pity that Krapp has not recorded more Bach. Maybe his name is a liability.

Tight Edgar?
Narrow Edgar?



Oh, now I see: limited Edgar!

But he did do some small Bach stuff on Eurodisc, too.
With a trumpet ensemble from Munich, and also one or two discs in the Dom zu Passau, with compositions of Bach, Franck, Reger et al.