J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Marc]

March 21st or March 31st?

Anyway:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MR. BACH!

In dir ist Freude!

http://www.mediafire.com/?0pafa9t4ixnt4ji

Wim van Beek plays the Hinsz organ (1734) of the Petruskerk in Leens, NL.

[jlaurson]

March 21st or March 31st?

Anyway:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MR. BACH!

In dir ist Freude!

http://www.mediafire.com/?0pafa9t4ixnt4ji

Wim van Beek plays the Hinsz organ (1734) of the Petruskerk in Leens, NL.

21st, but it's never too late. Here, it's Bach's birthday, every day!

[Opus106]

21st

[non-rhetorical]Why do people keep saying that?[non-rhetorical] 

[jlaurson]

[non-rhetorical]Why do people keep saying that?[non-rhetorical] 

Because we prefer numbers (symmetry, what it comes down to) over technical accuracy (truth), when we have the choice.

Which is to say: we prefer the continuity of keeping the number (21) over the accuracy of the corresponding modern date (31).

[Karl Henning]

March 21st or March 31st?

21^st Old Style (Julian Calendar), 31^st NS; so truly, you can celebrate both days.

and celebrate all the more, because (unlike Beethoven) we do actually know the birthday ; )

[Opus106]

Because we prefer numbers (symmetry, what it comes down to) over technical accuracy (truth), when we have the choice.

Which is to say: we prefer the continuity of keeping the number (21) over the accuracy of the corresponding modern date (31).

it's never too late

Disregard for accuracy, indeed. 21st March O.S. is two days away.

[Karl Henning]

Aye, Nav — it drifts in relation to NS about every century (hence the Gregorian calendar reform). I should have known that the difference is greater than 10 days now! : )

[milk]

I have to proclaim my appreciation for this thread. Somehow I thought I could get through
life without Bach's organ works. For a long time I avoided them. Recently, I purchased the complete set by Bernard Foccroulle.
Still more recently, I went for the complete Walcha set (since here it has been deemed "essential.")
Now I find myself unable to listen to anything else (I've taken a few breaks here and there). These two sets are really an interesting
contrast. I take it that Walcha is not strictly HIP? I find I really enjoy Foccroulle, especially what he does with the earlier output and
with the Orgelbüchlein. I bought his set because I have a mania for period performance. I have to admit that, so far, I feel a special
attraction to Wacha, in particular his Leipzig chorales. I scarcely understand the issues discussed in this thread. However, I'd like to
understand more about the instruments Walcha plays and what informs his playing. Anyway, I think this thread has pushed me along.
I'm a real amateur listener. I don't have enough knowledge to unpack what's going on with the music. But what a joy it is to have it in my life.
         

[milk]

One stark contrast I noticed right away between Foccroulle and Walcha is BWV 651. The way Walcha plays it, everything is tied together - as it were.
I had an "aha moment" with the piece that I didn't have with Foccroulle. But it's not just this piece. Walcha's music flows organically. Excuse my inarticulateness.
Having said that, I find much inspiration in Foccroulle. I'll leave off now since I won't have anything perspicacious to add to this thread. 

[milk]

I have to proclaim my appreciation for this thread. Somehow I thought I could get through
life without Bach's organ works. For a long time I avoided them. Recently, I purchased the complete set by Bernard Foccroulle.
Still more recently, I went for the complete Walcha set (since here it has been deemed "essential.")
Now I find myself unable to listen to anything else (I've taken a few breaks here and there). These two sets are really an interesting
contrast. I take it that Walcha is not strictly HIP? I find I really enjoy Foccroulle, especially what he does with the earlier output and
with the Orgelbüchlein. I bought his set because I have a mania for period performance. I have to admit that, so far, I feel a special
attraction to Wacha, in particular his Leipzig chorales. I scarcely understand the issues discussed in this thread. However, I'd like to
understand more about the instruments Walcha plays and what informs his playing. Anyway, I think this thread has pushed me along.
I'm a real amateur listener. I don't have enough knowledge to unpack what's going on with the music. But what a joy it is to have it in my life.
       

Sorry: I see that Walcha used restored Baroque organs (I downloaded so I don't have a booklet).

[Marc]

I have to proclaim my appreciation for this thread. Somehow I thought I could get through life without Bach's organ works. For a long time I avoided them. Recently, I purchased the complete set by Bernard Foccroulle.
Still more recently, I went for the complete Walcha set (since here it has been deemed "essential.")
Now I find myself unable to listen to anything else (I've taken a few breaks here and there).       
[....]

Oh dear, another addict.
Experiences like these happened to me about 3 years ago.
Now I have 25 box sets with more or less integral organ works by this bloke called Bach.

Prepare yourself: soon you will be hopelessly surrendered to this music.

Count your blessings.

[kishnevi]

Disregard for accuracy, indeed. 21st March O.S. is two days away.

well, that's nice.  FedEx has thoughtfully scheduled delivery for my Teldec Complete box April 3.   Like getting a birthday present from Bach.

[Mandryka]

Very well. Mind you i haven't finished exploring the Rubsam set, this is how far i got. I'll put the name of the performer i like best for a given piece in parenthesis:

B0531, Prelude and Fugue in C (Rubsam)
B0533, Prelude and Fugue in e (Rubsam)
B0536, Prelude and Fugue in A (Walcha)
B0550, Prelude and Fugue in G (Rubsam)
B0551, Prelude and Fugue in a (Rubsam)
B0578, Fugue in g (Walcha)
B0588, Canzona in d (Walcha)
B0535, Prelude and Fugue in g (Rubsam)
B0537, Prelude and Fugue in c (Rubsam)
B0562, Fantasia in c (Walcha)
B0564, Toccata, Adagio and Fugue in C (Rubsam)
B0565, Toccata and Fugue in d (Walcha)
B0532, Prelude and Fugue in D (Rubsam)
B0534, Prelude and Fugue in f (Walcha)
B0768, Chorale partita in g (Rubsam)
B0541, Prelude and Fugue in G (no preference)
B0545, Prelude and Fugue in C (no preference)
B0538, Toccata and Fugue in d (Walcha)
B0540, Toccata and Fugue in F (Rubsam)
B0582, Passacaglia et Fuga in c (Walcha)
B0543, Prelude and Fugue in a (Walcha)
B0547, Prelude and Fugue in C (Rubsam)

As you can see i still have a lot to go but this should give you an idea of how i see those performers in comparison to each other.

I prefer Rubsam Philips to Walcha stereo in BWV 768. But I love Walcha mono, which is rapt and noble and has some really tasty, fun registrations.

I also very much like Rubsam's Naxos -- I like the slow tempo. I wouldn't give up either Walcha mono or Rubsam Naxos.

Can anyone point the way to an English translation of the chorale, Sei gegruesset, Jesu guetig?

[kishnevi]

Can anyone point the way to an English translation of the chorale, Sei gegruesset, Jesu guetig?

Here's both German and English, although my rather weak German says the translation aimed more for rhyme than literal accuracy.

http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/track232.htm


Chorale Text German:

1. Sei gegrüsset, Jesu gutig,
Uber alles Mass sanftmütig!
Ach! wie bist du so zerrissen,
Und dein ganzer Leib zerschmissen!
Lass mich deine Lieb ererben
Und darinnen selig sterben!

2. O mein Jesu! Gott und mein Heil,
Meines Herzens Trost und Teil,
Beut mir deine Hand und Seiten,
Wenn ich werde sollen streiten.
Lass mich deine Lieb ererben
Und darinnen selig sterben.

3. Schone, Jesu, meiner Sünde,
Well ich mich zu dir ja finde
Mit betrübten Geist und Herzen,
Dein Blut lindert meine Schmerzen.
Lass mich deine Lieb ererben
Und darinnen selig sterben.

4. O! du weiss und rote Quelle,
Kühle meine matte Seele:
Wenn ich werd' im Tode liegen,
Hilf mir ritterlich obsiegen.
Lass mich deine Lieb ererben
Und darinnen selig sterben.

5. O! wie freundlich kannst du laben,
Jesu, alle, die dich haben;
Die sich halten an dein Leiden,
Können seliglich abscheiden.
Lass mich deine Lieb ererben
Und darinnen selig sterben.

6. Wenn der Feind mich tut anklagen,
Lass mich, Jesu, nicht verzagen.
Wenn ich aus dem Elend fahre,
Meine Seele du bewahre,
Singen immer Heilig, Heilig:
Alsdenn bin ich ewig selig.

7. Süsser Jesu, Gnaden Sonne,
Mein Schatz, höchste Freud und Wonne,
Ewig, ewig lass mich loben
Mit den Engeln dich hoch droben,
Singen immer Heilig, Heilig:
Alsdenn bin ich ewig selig.

By Christian Keimann, Gotha Gesangbuch, 1666
(verse 1-5, 1663, verse 6-7, 1666)   
English:

1. Hail to Thee my Jesu, Holy,
None as Thou, the meek and lowly.
Ah! how art Thou torn and hated,
All Thy Body lacerated!.
On Thy love, dear Lord, relying,
So shall I be blest when dying.

2. O my Jesu, my salvation,
Thou my heart's true consolation,
Be my guide, stretch forth Thy Hand
When I fight at Thy command.
On Thy love, dear Lord, relying,
So shall I be blest when dying.

3. Look upon my sin in kindness.
Lo! from out my night of blindness,
Turn I unto Thee, heart broken,
In Thy blood to find Love's token.
On Thy love, dear Lord, relying,
So shall I be blest when dying.

4. Well of living water, lave me,
Blood from pierced side, assuage me.
When in deathly throes I languish
Strengthen me my foes to vanquish.
On Thy love, dear Lord, relying,
So shall I be blest when dying.

5. O what kindly cheer Thou givest,
Lord, to all in whom Thou livest;
Those who tread Thy path of sadness
May depart from hence in gladness.
On Thy love, dear Lord, relying,
So shall I be blest when dying.

6. When the enemy accuses,
To despair my soul refuses--
When from this dark earth I wend
Do Thou, Lord, my soul befriend
Sing ever Holy, Holy,
Let me lose myself in Thee.

7. Dearest Jesu! Sun of Brightness,
Store of blessing, joy and sweetness,
Let me praise Thee, morn and even,
With Thy host in highest Heaven,
Singing ever Holy, Holy,
Let me lose myself in Thee.

Tr. Edith Munro Fowler

[Opus106]

Nothing to see here; move on.

Can anyone point the way to an English translation of the chorale, Sei gegruesset, Jesu guetig?

Why just one, when you can have them all? Direct link to the PDF file containing the original text and translation for all some the organ chorales, from Koopman's integral. I like the format in this set, because the appropriate chorales are sung before and after the organ piece. It gives you a better grip on the instrumental work, IMO.

[Marc]

Why just one, when you can have them all? Direct link to the PDF file containing the original text and translation for all the organ chorales, from Koopman's integral. I like the format in this set, because the appropriate chorales are sung before and after the organ piece. It gives you a better grip on the instrumental work, IMO.

AFAIK, the sung hymns in Koopman's set do not contain all chorales. No lyrics f.i. of the 'Orgelmesse' chorales and also no lyrics of the variations and partita's.

Here's at least the complete German text of BWV 768:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale499-Eng3.htm

There's no translation (yet?), but there are many possibilities on the internet to translate it in a more or less acceptable way.

Mind you: many scholars believe that Bach did not use this chorale text for BWV 768. Because of the musical structure they believe the title should be "O Jesu, du ed'le Gabe".
Here's the first verse (in German) of that one:

          O Jesu, du edle Gabe,
          mich mit deinem Blute labe,
          daran hab ich meine Freude,
          und stets meiner Seelen Weide,
          dein Blut mich von Sünden wäschet,
          und der Höllen Gluth auslöschet.

In 1989, Albert Clement published a study about the relation of text and music in Bach's chorale partitas and variations .... in German :

http://www.worldcat.org/title/o-jesu-du-edle-gabe-studien-zum-verhaltnis-von-text-und-musik-in-den-choralpartiten-und-den-kanonischen-veranderungen-von-johann-sebastian-bach-een-onderzoek-naar-de-relatie-tussen-tekst-en-muziek-in-de-koraalpartitas-en-kanonische-variaties-van-johann-sebastian-bach/oclc/26521693

[Opus106]

AFAIK, the sung hymns in Koopman's set do not contain all chorales. No lyrics f.i. of the 'Orgelmesse' chorales and also no lyrics of the variations and partita's.

Thanks. I appreciate that.

[Mandryka]

So, first off, thanks for all the information.

Let's assume for the moment that the chorale is "Sei gegrüsset, Jesu gutig." If that translation is right, then this is about death. That makes me feel even more positively about Rubsam's Naxos, which seems to me to capture feelings about loneliness and consolation in death very well. Affectively, the way he plays there is spot on I think.

I seem to have an empathy for Rusbam's Naxos. Although sometimes I've felt let down, very often I find his interpretations really touching. I've by no means listened to all the recordings and maybe the ones where I felt  disappointed let me down because of me, rather than the performances -- you know, my mood, or maybe I haven't listened actively enough. Anyway I'll have to listen some more to the Naxos records for sure.

Have a good Easter, everyone.

[jlaurson]

So, first off, thanks for all the information.

Let's assume for the moment that the chorale is "Sei gegrüsset, Jesu gutig." If that translation is right, then this is about death. That makes me feel even more positively about Rubsam's Naxos, which seems to me to capture feelings about loneliness and consolation in death very well. Affectively, the way he plays there is spot on I think.

I seem to have an empathy for Rusbam's Naxos. Although sometimes I've felt let down, very often I find his interpretations really touching. I've by no means listened to all the recordings and maybe the ones where I felt  disappointed let me down because of me, rather than the performances -- you know, my mood, or maybe I haven't listened actively enough. Anyway I'll have to listen some more to the Naxos records for sure.

Have a good Easter, everyone.

Most of them are about death in some way. Well, many, at least. But death then was not at all what death is now... and many of the chorales of the time encourage a delighted embrace of the eternal life. Bach composed some surprisingly cheery music to death scenes here and there.

[Marc]

Most of them are about death in some way. Well, many, at least. But death then was not at all what death is now... and many of the chorales of the time encourage a delighted embrace of the eternal life. Bach composed some surprisingly cheery music to death scenes here and there.

AFAIK, many Christian hymns and texts still do, even today.
I began to listen to Bach's vocal church music in my early teens, and, still being a kid, the lyrics and music did not really surprise me (despite the sometimes old-fashioned way of expressing things), since I was brought up in a Christian environment.

Back to the BWV 768 issue, here's the German text of the chorale O Jesu, du ed'le Gabe.
Ten verses, which makes BWV 768 a 12-part Partite diverse with a 'preludio' introducing the melody, ten variations based on the chorale text, and a 'postludio in organo pleno'. This makes more sense than the better known option with Sei gegrüßet, Jesu gütig, because that chorale only got seven verses.

But we won't be 100% sure about the title until the handwritten original by Bach suddenly appears in some hidden archive in Tasmania.