J.S. Bach on the Organ

[prémont]

80 pages seems to be a long read; Marc, Premont, and others, too, what recordings would you recommend, in the HIP vein?


Thanks in advance, Karlo

Complete sets or individual CDs?

As to complete sets I favour some OOP recordings (Kooiman 2 and Beekman), but also the integrals of Foccroulle and Vernet.
As to individual CDs: see my first post in this thread.
However, I do not think you will regret the reading of the complete thread.

[North Star]

Thanks, I will certainly read the thread when I have time.
Jens: preferably both, HIP playing and instruments.

Complete set would probably be a good way to go since I don't know this repertoire apart from a couple of the most famous ones.
Premont: Foccroulle & Vernet seem to be available for decent prices, I'll probably buy one of those, but will be reading the thread more first. Thanks very much.

[Marc]

Now having recieved Heinz Balli´ BachCD and having listened to it a couple of times, I conclude, that this is the sonically best recording of the Schott organ in Muri, I have heard, and it reveals that this organ is very well suitable for Bach´s organ works, when the right man sits at the keyboards. I would characterise the style of the interpretation as compact and a bit strict - it comes as no surprise to me, that Balli (born 1941) is a pupil of Marie-Claire Alain and Anton Heiller - I have heard Heiller in a recital in Copenhagen (ca 1970) playing the BWV 542 and 582 in as well as the same manner, which implies the use of plenum sound throughout with a minimum of stop changes and rather metrical tempo except for the conventional end-rubato. In the choralfree works I appreciate the high degee of monumentality of the gotic cathedral variety Balli achieves, and which is at least comparable to his teachers. In BWV 767 he displays of course the more soft stops of the organ, but I do not find his playing more flexible for that reason. Thanks for leading me to this recording, which I consider a valuable addition to my Bach organ collection.

At your service and thanks for the informative review. I absolutely agree with the Heiller connection.
And yes, although I do prefer a more flexible Bach (Kooiman, Foccroulle f.i.), I certainly have got a weak spot for the bold approach, too!

[Marc]

Thanks, I will certainly read the thread when I have time.
Jens: preferably both, HIP playing and instruments.

Complete set would probably be a good way to go since I don't know this repertoire apart from a couple of the most famous ones.
Premont: Foccroulle & Vernet seem to be available for decent prices, I'll probably buy one of those, but will be reading the thread more first. Thanks very much.

Considering your preference for HIP, I would go for Foccroulle. Trustworthy playing on beautiful historic instruments. Vernet's a nice add-on after that, with a good taste in picking the modern instruments (combined with some nice true oldies). And his playing, though a bit uneven from time to time, provides interesting listening.

[North Star]

Considering your preference for HIP, I would go for Foccroulle. Trustworthy playing on beautiful historic instruments. Vernet's a nice add-on after that, with a good taste in picking the modern instruments (combined with some nice true oldies). And his playing, though a bit uneven from time to time, provides interesting listening.

Thanks, Marc.
I've been sampling these two from Spotify - all of the Vernet is there, and AoF & Toccatas & Fantasias from Foccroulle.
I do like both of them, but perhaps Foccroulle more. I'll have to do some more listening and reading, but I'll probably go with Focroulle.

[jlaurson]

Thanks, Marc.
I've been sampling these two from Spotify - all of the Vernet is there, and AoF & Toccatas & Fantasias from Foccroulle.
I do like both of them, but perhaps Foccroulle more. I'll have to do some more listening and reading, but I'll probably go with Focroulle.

The Silbermann Organ cycle on Berlin Classics is "HIP" in its very own way -- one of continuous tradition (rather than re-invention of HIPness) and due to the natural limits the instruments impose (although all the Silbermann organs have changed over time, renovated but usually also pitch-adjusted....


J.S.Bach,
Organ Works,
performed on Silbermann Organs
Berlin Classics
UK Link

Some of them have since been restored, including the laborious process of tuning them down to original pitch & temperament -- which you can see on this picture I took of the only surviving (?) Silbermann organ in Dresden at the Court Chapel. The light tips of the pipes were all soldered on at its last refitting a few years back.



The playing on the cycle (in any case not as readily available as it used to be, and therefore not any longer as dirt cheap as it once was) is more varied than on many other sets, but I find it curiously delightful and stimulating.

If you can sample it (Spotify should have everything), listen to Koopman. Hardly less HIP than Vernet, more consistent, and I know I'd fish for that one from my collection in that 'house on fire' before I'd go for Vernet. I also have a huge soft-spot for Lionel Rogg (III) but I'm not sure if I can justify that in purely musical terms. Not yet, at any rate.

[North Star]

The Silbermann Organ cycle on Berlin Classics is "HIP" in its very own way -- one of continuous tradition (rather than re-invention of HIPness) and due to the natural limits the instruments impose (although all the Silbermann organs have changed over time, renovated but usually also pitch-adjusted....

Some of them have since been restored, including the laborious process of tuning them down to original pitch & temperament -- which you can see on this picture I took of the only surviving (?) Silbermann organ in Dresden at the Court Chapel. The light tips of the pipes were all soldered on at its last refitting a few years back.

The playing on the cycle (in any case not as readily available as it used to be, and therefore not any longer as dirt cheap as it once was) is more varied than on many other sets, but I find it curiously delightful and stimulating.

If you can sample it (Spotify should have everything), listen to Koopman. Hardly less HIP than Vernet, more consistent, and I know I'd fish for that one from my collection in that 'house on fire' before I'd go for Vernet. I also have a huge soft-spot for Lionel Rogg (III) but I'm not sure if I can justify that in purely musical terms. Not yet, at any rate.

Thanks, the Silbermann cycle is in Spotify, and some I found some Koopman there as well. These should keep me busy for a while 

[prémont]

Thanks, the Silbermann cycle is in Spotify, and some I found some Koopman there as well. These should keep me busy for a while 

The former East German cycle on Berlin Classics is not HIP. The interpretations are charming but rather traditional post organ movement products. If it were HIP, Walcha, Richter, Wunderlich, Kraft, Stockmeier and many others would be HIP too.

I forgot that Vernet uses modern organs for some of his set. However his playing is HIP, but even I would probably prefer Foccroulle to Vernet.

Koopman is take it or leave it, - you have to get accustomed to his in between superfluous extravagancies.  He may become anything from your most preferred performer to your least preferred performer. Listen carefully to him before you get his set.

[North Star]

The former East German cycle on Berlin Classics is not HIP. The interpretations are charming but rather traditional post organ movement products. If it were HIP, Walcha, Richter, Wunderlich, Kraft, Stockmeier and many others would be HIP too.

I forgot that Vernet uses modern organs for some of his set. However his playing is HIP, but even I would probably prefer Foccroulle to Vernet.

Koopman is take it or leave it, - you have to get accustomed to his in between superfluous extravagancies.  He may become anything from your most preferred performer to your least preferred performer. Listen carefully to him before you get his set.

Cheers, Premont. Yeah I saw it's not HIP, but I guess it won't hurt too much to listen to a free sample.
Besides, the Foccroulle is coming from Spain 

[jlaurson]

BWV 676

The Silbermann Organ cycle on Berlin Classics is "HIP" in its very own way -- one of continuous tradition (rather than re-invention of HIPness) and due to the natural limits the instruments impose (although all the Silbermann organs have changed over time, renovated but usually also pitch-adjusted....


J.S.Bach,
Organ Works,
performed on Silbermann Organs
Berlin Classics
UK Link

The playing on the cycle (in any case not as readily available as it used to be, and therefore not any longer as dirt cheap as it once was) is more varied than on many other sets, but I find it curiously delightful and stimulating.

The former East German cycle on Berlin Classics is ... charming but [a] rather traditional post organ movement products.

Speaking of which -- anyone notice that in the Organ Mass Christoph Albrecht's  "Allein Gott in der Hoeh sei Erh, BWV 676 (track 6, CD 3)) is a debilitating mess that sounds more like a bleed-in from another track, at a different pitch, than the real thing? Had to listen to the clear lines of Kare Nordstoga (Lawo) to recover. Even Hurford (Decca), who blindly races through the bit, comes out sound here. Heck, even the absurd-trashy Jean Guillou performance (Philips, deservedly oop) manages. Somehow. Under 3-1/2 minutes!

Now that I'm listening to BWV 676 more... I really like the slower approaches better than the faster ones... and the more they play the several lines equitably the better. Perhaps because my first account was the very slow (6:20+), rock solid, unshakeable Wolfgang Stockmeier (Music & Arts / Membran).

Simon Preston (DG) teasingly close to chaos, but sonically not all that great. Surprisingly satisfying -- indeed terrific - throughout: Bernard Lagacé (Analekta)... who is incidentally Canadian, not French. There seems to be a tendency among French organists (Jacque Amade, Guillou, J-P. Brosse [total mess] to abuse the work as s speed-monster showpiece. (Ulrik Spang-Hanssen (Classico) is guilty of that, too.) That's not to say that one need to exaggerate as much as Ruebsam (Naxos) on his beautiful but all-too-carried (6:22) account or Francesco Bongiorno (6:10) for his in any case acoustically shoddy, home-made Clavieruebung III (La Bottega Discantica). I don't have Vernet around right now to compare, but I don't remember any craziness there in either direction... though I think a bit on the fast side, too. Incidentally: If Francis Jacob (ZigZag) is French, his 8-minute-PLUS version makes up for all the French race-horses to put them at the slow end of the national average.

Under 5 minutes, I really only enjoy a few interpretations: Walcha II (Archiv) and possibly Ullrich Boehme (Philips, on various compilations), though that guy is pushing it, too. Hansjoerg Albrecht's recording is nice, (Oehms SACD) which intersperses the organ chorales with sung chorales... much like Koopman... and I've always had a soft-spot for Kevin Bowyer's Organ Mass (Nimbus), with the audible mechanics, the constant threat of the music running away, and all.

The strangest must be Tuma (Supraphon) whose pedal-work is registered to sound like an elephant baby with a head cold. Interesting, very different, but avoiding the 'strange' (whatever that may be, depending on one's ears and expectations) is Gerhard Weinberger who lifts some rhythms out of the intertwining lines that others don't (cpo)... except perhaps Walcha I (Archiv, 4:20).

[Mandryka]

Thanks for this post - it's very stimulating.

In fact I like Francis Jacob's record of 676 a lot. He takes a risk by playing it so slow but I think the risk pays off big time because it lets you really relish the harmonies in the music. As a consequence,  moments of slight astringency are brought to the fore, and that makes the music more emotionally interesting for me. If you look at the chorale you'll see similar things happening: the basic idea that God offers security is juxtaposed with  slightly less reassuring thoughts like "Nimm an die Bitt' von unsrer Not, Erbarm' dich unser aller!" and  "Teufels G'walt"

Another one I very much like is Walcha mono, just because of the dynamism and Daemonic drive. In some respects that performance reminds me of some Edwin Fischer's Bach.

Do you know Hans Fagius's record of it? That's one of the ones I remember enjoying a lot.

[kishnevi]

Re Timings on 676--Vernet is 4:33 and Alain II (the cycle of hers that I have) is a few seconds longer, and Messori is 5:39.

[jlaurson]

Do you know Hans Fagius's record of it? That's one of the ones I remember enjoying a lot.

I've got it as part of the Brilliant Bach box. I'm listening to it now... briefly flirts with chaos, but establishes a wonderful momentum.

Which Walcha set are you listening from? Comparing my Archiv set with the cheapo edition on Melodram  (albeit only on Spotify) I find that the latter has removed far too much noise which leaves the organ glaring and nuance-free. A bit like the EMI Schnabel Beethoven "remasterings".

At least it would seem in this case that they didn't just steal the nearest available master and publish them without credit... which is apparently their usual modus vivendi.
At the trade fair Classical:Next (see here) I heard a lot of complaints about that (and not just Melodram, but even major companies doling out sets in which they included the remastered recordings of other, smaller companies that specialize in that field) -- and shockingly I found out that there has never been a case of copy-right violation brought forward in court on such an issue, because -- although it's perfectly possible to prove -- the cost and efforts of a legal department would invariably outweigh the possible benefits... at least for the case that sets the precedent.

[milk]

Another interesting opportunity coming up here in Japan in August (aside from Masaaki Suzuki on 7/7):     
Friday, August, 3,2012

Bach Organ works Series
Gerhard Weinberger

Gerhard Weinberger（Organ）
■Program
J.S.Bach：Toccate und Fuge "Dorisch" BWV538
　　　　　《Orgelbüchlein》Passion
　　　　　　Fuge g-moll BWV578
　　　　　　Konzert G-dur BWV592
　　　　　　"Jesus Christus, unser Heiland" BWV665,666
　　　　　　"Jesu, meine Freude" BWV713
　　　　　　"Vor deinen Thron tret ich" BWV668
　　　　　　Präludium und Fuge D-dur BWV532

[jlaurson]

I'm working my way through the first Wolfgan Rübsam set, and even after trying to deduct for the seduction of what is the most appealingly presented such set I have, I'm amazed how much I like pretty much everything that comes my way.

In all the 'big hits', he hits all my buttons... in many lesser pieces he makes me perk my ears without being quirky... moderation and good musical sense seem to inform him throughout... at CD 11 of 16 right now, and very calmly pleased, indeed.

(Or perhaps it the OOP-benediction-factor working on me?)


J.S.Bach
Complete Organ Works
+ Art of the Fugue
Metzler Organ St.Nikolaus, Frauenfeld (CH)
Marcussen Nave Organ in the Freiburg Münster
Philips (16 CDs)

[Marc]

I'm working my way through the first Wolfgan Rübsam set, and even after trying to deduct for the seduction of what is the most appealingly presented such set I have, I'm amazed how much I like pretty much everything that comes my way.

The most amazing thing for me is the fact that it differs so much from his second integral for Naxos.
If one owns them both, one owns Bach's organ works in almost every peculiar way.

An interesting phenomenon, this mr. Rübsam.

[jlaurson]

The most amazing thing for me is the fact that it differs so much from his second integral for Naxos.
If one owns them both, one owns Bach's organ works in almost every peculiar way.

An interesting phenomenon, this mr. Rübsam.

And already the photo in this set's insert screams of the middle-Americana neat-groomed licensed barber-to-be:



Far too much plastic comes with the Naxos cycle, at this point, for me to be interested in it... but I'll listen to a few things, if I get to it, on the Naxos Music Library. From what I think I've picked up in GMG-conversations, it's a more expansive view of much of the works??

[Marc]

[....]
Far too much plastic comes with the Naxos cycle, at this point, for me to be interested in it... but I'll listen to a few things, if I get to it, on the Naxos Music Library. From what I think I've picked up in GMG-conversations, it's a more expansive view of much of the works??

I remember that, at some stage in my organ rookie year, I described Rübsam's Naxos cycle as Bach interpreted by the old bearded man, who wants to stop the clock from running to the mortal end or something like it, and even Premont kinda agreed with that.

[prémont]

I remember that, at some stage in my organ rookie year, I described Rübsam's Naxos cycle as Bach interpreted by the old bearded man, who wants to stop the clock from running to the mortal end or something like it, and even Premont kinda agreed with that.

The most surprising thing is the short space in time between the Philips and the Naxos sets.

Rübsam was born in 1946.
At the time of the first set (Philips 1976-77 - the sessions lasted one year) he was about 30 years old.
At the time of the second set (Naxos 1988 - 96 IIRC - sessions lasted eight years, even if the Naxos set is less complete than the Philips set) he was only in his 40es.

[Marc]

The most surprising thing is the short space in time between the Philips and the Naxos sets.

Rübsam was born in 1946.
At the time of the first set (Philips 1976-77 - the sessions lasted one year) he was about 30 years old.
At the time of the second set (Naxos 1988 - 96 IIRC - sessions lasted eight years, even if the Naxos set is less complete than the Philips set) he was only in his 40es.

In short: he got rid of his beard, quickly regretted doing so, and decided to play Bach with a beard, to soften the pain of the loss.
But he could not forget the entire experience and decided to open a barbershop.