J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Parsifal]

Just agree on a safety word, beforehand!

My experience is that Bach's music survives eccentricity better than the stultifying notion that it must be played properly or not at all. 

[prémont]

My experience is that Bach's music survives eccentricity better than the stultifying notion that it must be played properly or not at all.

You seem to imply, that it only can be played properly in one way.
De facto it can be played properly in many ways - even eccentric ways.
But this is not to say, that every kind of eccentricity suits the music.

[Mandryka]

I think it's interesting that  Leonhardt used such  little rhythmic rubato in his Bach organ recordings, even though he's very happy to use it in, for example, Art of Fugue.

Where did the idea that you should play baroque organ music using agogic accents and hesitations come from? I know that harpsichord manuals discuss it, but are there some early organ manuals which talk anout expression?

[prémont]

I think it's interesting that  Leonhardt used such  little rhythmic rubato in his Bach organ recordings, even though he's very happy to use it in, for example, Art of Fugue.

Where did the idea that you should play baroque organ music using agogic accents and hesitations come from? I know that harpsichord manuals discuss it, but are there some early organ manuals which talk anout expression?

Some baroque authors generally warn against "stiff" playing, but I do not think any specific reference to rhythmic rubato exists. Not even Kooiman did seize the opportunity to explain it in his above mentioned book with Weinberger.

[Marc]

Maybe one of the reasons (or even causes) for a different 'HIP' (or whatever) approach between organ and harpsichord playing, is the fact that, besides the similarity because they're both keyboard instruments, the latter is a (plucked) string instrument, whilst the organ is quite a different matter.

Both instruments seem to have a different 'imitatio' purpose. I always realize that when a classical newbie says that the harpsichord makes him/her think of a guitar.
So maybe we should include the 'HIP' approach towards lute playing, too?

I think it would be interesting to find out for what instrument(s) the indications like the specific staccato dots and legato slurs in Bach's original Trio Sonatas autograph were meant c.q. better suited. As a layman, I would say: better suited for chamber (string and or woodwind) instruments and for a 'de imitatio violistica' or 'imitando a la flauta' organ .... but who am I? Or could it also be meant for a clavichord, for its capability to play a more 'convincing' legato than a harpsichord?

Dunno dunno dunno.

So, as you see, in the end: more questions than answers.

[prémont]

Maybe one of the reasons (or even causes) for a different 'HIP' (or whatever) approach between organ and harpsichord playing, is the fact that, besides the similarity because they're both keyboard instruments, the latter is a (plucked) string instrument, whilst the organ is quite a different matter.

Both instruments seem to have a different 'imitatio' purpose. I always realize that when a classical newbie says that the harpsichord makes him/her think of a guitar.
So maybe we should include the 'HIP' approach towards lute playing, too?

I think it would be interesting to find out for what instrument(s) the indications like the specific staccato dots and legato slurs in Bach's original Trio Sonatas autograph were meant c.q. better suited. As a layman, I would say: better suited for chamber (string and or woodwind) instruments and for a 'de imitatio violistica' or 'imitando a la flauta' organ .... but who am I? Or could it also be meant for a clavichord, for its capability to play a more 'convincing' legato than a harpsichord?

Dunno dunno dunno.

So, as you see, in the end: more questions than answers.

Well, you bring the answers yourself.

The organ triosonatas have always left me with the impression of being composed in the first hand for two melody instruments (preferably strings) and continuo and only later arranged for two manuals and pedal. Whether this means organ or pedal harpsichord/clavichord nobody can say. We think we know, that Bach did not distinguish that much.

John Butt has examined Bach´s use of articulation marks and has made the conclusion, that they get more and more violinistic with time. And violinistic is what I would call the articulation marks in the triosonatas, and for that reason they are not keyboard specific. However I think they work best on organ, but there is no final truth about this question.

[Parsifal]

You seem to imply, that it only can be played properly in one way.
De facto it can be played properly in many ways - even eccentric ways.
But this is not to say, that every kind of eccentricity suits the music.

There is an implication that performances are in some way illegitimate if they do not conform to the  performance tradition approved by the "experts."  The fact that Guillou is rejected by the stuffy crowd makes me think he may be worth hearing.

[jlaurson]

There is an implication that performances are in some way illegitimate if they do not conform to the  performance tradition approved by the "experts."  The fact that Guillou is rejected by the stuffy crowd makes me think he may be worth hearing.

It's, as always, all yours to figure out what you find worth hearing and what not.

As so often, when you are in contrarian mood, you pick up on implications and inferences that probably aren't there... and the fact that Guillou has few fans here (among a surprisingly wide-ranging swath of organ-music loving GMGers) is probably not because we're all stuffy and you're not... but because of this: http://youtu.be/hiv8gRYqTjI  ...which anyone is entitled to find awesome, of course. All I hear, meanwhile, is the godfather of Cameron Carpenter.

However, this is rather charming and amusing in a good way: http://youtu.be/4V4v4jw-7O0 (Jean Guillou In Portrait)

[kishnevi]

It's, as always, all yours to figure out what you find worth hearing and what not.

As so often, when you are in contrarian mood, you pick up on implications and inferences that probably aren't there... and the fact that Guillou has few fans here (among a surprisingly wide-ranging swath of organ-music loving GMGers) is probably not because we're all stuffy and you're not... but because of this: http://youtu.be/hiv8gRYqTjI  ...which anyone is entitled to find awesome, of course. All I hear, meanwhile, is the godfather of Cameron Carpenter.

However, this is rather charming and amusing in a good way: http://youtu.be/4V4v4jw-7O0 (Jean Guillou In Portrait)

Godfather of Cameron Carpenter? 
[shudders]
He can't be that awful, can he?
The one and only CD I ever gave away because of its awesome badness was by Carpenter.

[alyosha]

I'm excited that the thread has revived! I'm still exploring the great offerings, but a few things seemed worth posting:

Thanks for all the great ideas re the "idiosyncratic". I confess i'm not taken with Guillou; so far Rubsam is in the lead for that side of my split personality. Oh, and thanks to jlaurson for the amazon list!

Re HIP Bach organ with "rhythmic rubato" (whether what is stolen is returned or not ), i'm grateful to premont and others for the recommendations and peek into the history.

I would like to briefly expand the rhythm issue beyond harpsichord, which i chose myself for a quicker and more apples-to-apples comparison.

Where did the idea that you should play baroque organ music using agogic accents and hesitations come from?

(BTW, i apologize: i can't tell if this is skepticism or merely a question.)

Maybe one of the reasons (or even causes) for a different 'HIP' (or whatever) approach between organ and harpsichord playing, is the fact that, besides the similarity because they're both keyboard instruments, the latter is a (plucked) string instrument, whilst the organ is quite a different matter.

My experience is that the most common baroque-HIP view is to encourage rhythmically expressive phrasing -- at least not completely even -- in varying ways but applying to a wide range of instruments, genres, and regional traditions. In larger ensembles it is oc less, one cannot be so ad lib; but among soloists it is very common. In my recent return, Bach organ has stood out from all of these (with exceptions of course, but enough that i remain curious).

So @Mandryka: As i understand it as a very lay man, there is ample scholarly support for various broad (though regionally/etc inflected)  baroque conceptions of music that are the assumed context of all instruments. Why would organ be the exception where that does not apply? I ask your question in the opposite direction: Are organists instructed, in the historical record, not to play like other keyboardists? Or violinists, singers, etc? Told, "Play in strict time, not like those others."? (Perhaps i should concede that music for religious services and occasions has a distinct context.)

And @Marc: You can already see my point. If rhythmic expression was HIP for, say, decaying but not sustaining instruments, that would be the answer. But that is not the case.

New topic, clarification @jlaurson: "Idiosyncratic" was simply my summary word for that whole description of Gould/Pletnev/etc, people whose interpretations stand out to many as unique, individual, unusual, etc. No "arrhythmia" implied. Nor requested.

Finally, @premont this time and others in the past: Kooiman and his last set have been so praised throughout the thread that a while back i visited the site. The one that stood out in my somewhat random sampling was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4d4R3NI4fo Warning that it's behind-the-scenes of recording sessions, broken up, mostly of the Tocctta, Adagio, and Fugue BWV 564. There's a whole lot i like about the opening, but the genre at that point is too "free" to be a good test; and i must admit the counterpoint that follows is pretty even, though it doesn't last long. But the Adagio at 5:26 and the Fugue at 8:25 are perfect examples of (his version of) similar-to-harpsichord playing that i've been missing. The bit of Concerto that follows is more subtle, though i still feel i'm in the world i'm used to...

[Marc]

[....] My experience is that the most common baroque-HIP view is to encourage rhythmically expressive phrasing -- at least not completely even -- in varying ways but applying to a wide range of instruments, genres, and regional traditions. In larger ensembles it is oc less, one cannot be so ad lib; but among soloists it is very common. In my recent return, Bach organ has stood out from all of these (with exceptions of course, but enough that i remain curious). [....]

It might be interesting to include f.i. Koopman's and Suzuki's recordings of Bach vocal works and compare them to their organ/harpsichord stuff. I feel that especially in Koopman's case the differences are quite striking: he's much more fluent in the vocal works. I once read in a Herreweghe interview that he and Koopman developed a different view upon the baroque vocal issue than f.i. the 'Leonhardt/Harnoncourt school', who use more rhythmically expressive phrasing, whilst Herreweghe said "it's still singing", and therefore another cup of tea (in his - and Koopman's - view).
It's also interesting to compare Koopman's organ playing in chorale and free organ works. To me, he sounds less rhythmically expressive in the chorale works. This could again be caused by the fact that he considers chorale works to be 'de imitatio vocalista' (or something like that ) and therefore different.

[Parsifal]

It's, as always, all yours to figure out what you find worth hearing and what not.

As so often, when you are in contrarian mood, you pick up on implications and inferences that probably aren't there... and the fact that Guillou has few fans here (among a surprisingly wide-ranging swath of organ-music loving GMGers) is probably not because we're all stuffy and you're not... but because of this: http://youtu.be/hiv8gRYqTjI  ...which anyone is entitled to find awesome, of course. All I hear, meanwhile, is the godfather of Cameron Carpenter.

However, this is rather charming and amusing in a good way: http://youtu.be/4V4v4jw-7O0 (Jean Guillou In Portrait)

I have far too much Bach organ music on the shelves to be getting another cycle, but I will definitely pick up his version of the Goldberg variations.  If that sparks my fancy I may go further.  I'm afraid t follows my philosophy regarding reviews or GMG comments.  The substantial information conveyed is that the recording exists.

[Mandryka]

Well, you bring the answers yourself.

The organ triosonatas have always left me with the impression of being composed in the first hand for two melody instruments (preferably strings) and continuo and only later arranged for two manuals and pedal. Whether this means organ or pedal harpsichord/clavichord nobody can say. We think we know, that Bach did not distinguish that much.

John Butt has examined Bach´s use of articulation marks and has made the conclusion, that they get more and more violinistic with time. And violinistic is what I would call the articulation marks in the triosonatas, and for that reason they are not keyboard specific. However I think they work best on organ, but there is no final truth about this question.

I guess violinistic means long phrasing, without necessarily implying legato.

[prémont]

I guess violinistic means long phrasing, without necessarily implying legato.

It may be more or less notes tied together (articulation - not phrasing) - and to be played legato. In fast movements often to support the rhythm, in slow movements also of a more cantabile nature.

[jlaurson]

Ah, I've found my un-favorite Guillou on Youtube. Not fair, admittedly, but makes the point devilishly well, methinks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aoWoTo2pcE

The whole Clavierubung is out there, if you piece it together. (Haven't found a playlist.)

[alyosha]

I know i've raised quite a few issues and questions (and there's more coming ) -- please allow me to bump the question re Bach organ pre-HIP.

In response to some comments, i was going to expand on and in a sense defend the question -- but that's mostly a waste since the point is i'm uninformed, am mostly assuming that what happened with other Bach happened in a roughly analogous way with organ, plus going on bits and pieces i've run across. It seems that others could give a much better answer.

I will offer that i've been reading about the organ reform movement etc, but since uses of the organ varied so widely this doesn't give me any clear idea of how Bach was interpreted. Also: if the question is unclear because in some places, say Germany and the Netherlands, things didn't drift so far as they did elsewhere, well that in itself would be very helpful to know.

Still, assuming that there was romanticized and otherwise pre-HIP Bach style, i'd love to learn anything about that, and to listen to good examples.

[jlaurson]

I know i've raised quite a few issues and questions (and there's more coming ) -- please allow me to bump the question re Bach organ pre-HIP.

In response to some comments, i was going to expand on and in a sense defend the question -- but that's mostly a waste since the point is i'm uninformed, am mostly assuming that what happened with other Bach happened in a roughly analogous way with organ, plus going on bits and pieces i've run across. It seems that others could give a much better answer.

I will offer that i've been reading about the organ reform movement etc, but since uses of the organ varied so widely this doesn't give me any clear idea of how Bach was interpreted. Also: if the question is unclear because in some places, say Germany and the Netherlands, things didn't drift so far as they did elsewhere, well that in itself would be very helpful to know.

Still, assuming that there was romanticized and otherwise pre-HIP Bach style, i'd love to learn anything about that, and to listen to good examples.

It ain't organ, but it sounds to me like you need to get the entire Hyperion Bach Transcription series! :-)

[alyosha]

It ain't organ, but it sounds to me like you need to get the entire Hyperion Bach Transcription series! :-)

No Liszt?! Oh please, i'm a completist!    (Actually, my university library has most of the Hyperion complete Liszt, so i know it's in there.)

And then there's Stokowski...

[Mandryka]

I know i've raised quite a few issues and questions (and there's more coming ) -- please allow me to bump the question re Bach organ pre-HIP.

In response to some comments, i was going to expand on and in a sense defend the question -- but that's mostly a waste since the point is i'm uninformed, am mostly assuming that what happened with other Bach happened in a roughly analogous way with organ, plus going on bits and pieces i've run across. It seems that others could give a much better answer.

I will offer that i've been reading about the organ reform movement etc, but since uses of the organ varied so widely this doesn't give me any clear idea of how Bach was interpreted. Also: if the question is unclear because in some places, say Germany and the Netherlands, things didn't drift so far as they did elsewhere, well that in itself would be very helpful to know.

Still, assuming that there was romanticized and otherwise pre-HIP Bach style, i'd love to learn anything about that, and to listen to good examples.

Well, just thinking of French organists for a moment, I don't think I've heard anything earlier than Vierne's Bach recordings. André Marchal on Arbiter sounds very different. Someone once said to me that Marchal was is an important figure in the history of all of this, in that he broke away from a style where the emphasis was more on blending the voices than on making them clear.

[Mandryka]

Well, I know 32 organ recordings of the AoF, and I would call none of them dionysian.

So what would it be to be dionysian? I think it would be to prioritise the music as a vehicle for emotional expression, even if that means underplaying the formal characteristics. I'm not sure how that relates to ideas I think I've seen in your posts here, about how the music played properly will reveal its emotional content.

I think Kei Koito's record may be like this, but that's from memory and it's going to be three weeks before I'm back in London to hear it again.

By the way I was prompted to think about this ancient discussion when listening to Opfer recordings, contrasting the way Harnoncourt + Tachezi  play it (Apollonian) with The Schonnbrunn Ensemble +  Menno Van Delft. Also thinking about what  organists like Schweitzer were up to.