Bernstein says that Beethoven was the greatest composer

[Saul]

Yeah, that's basically Saul's premise: Mendelssohn is greater than Beethoven.

As to why you got dragged into this farce, maybe something you posted gave people the impression that you agree with Saul's premise.

Yes .. How could you.. Paul.. how?

Claim that Felix Mendelssohn is greater then Beethoven.. a crime!!!! shame on you!!!

Almost agreed there with Saul!!!!

How can that be?

Are you crazy!!!?

Mendelssohn against Beethoven? are you normal?

[pjme]

Yawn.

[Saul]

Yawn.

This might cheer you up..

Cherry cake

[Saul]

At age 18 I was accepted as a composition major at the Oberlin Conservatory of Music. Bit that.

I decided on another career path after realizing (unlike some of the wannabees here) that I did not have the drive or talent to pursue music professionally. A word to the wise should be sufficient.

You were rude to attack me as a personaly. It was uncalled for, and contributed nothing to the discussion.

The discussion was about Beethoven and Mendelssohn, not me, but you somehow managed to divert it.

[(poco) Sforzando]

You were rude to attack me as a personaly. It was uncalled for, and contributed nothing to the discussion.

The discussion was about Beethoven and Mendelssohn, not me, but you somehow managed to divert it.

Yawn. I refer you to your post #55.

[Don]

The discussion was about Beethoven and Mendelssohn, not me, but you somehow managed to divert it.

Saul started this thread because he can't tolerate anyone preferring whatever composer over his treasured Mendelssohn.  Just a case of sour grapes. 

Now Saul is holding himself up as a composer of music.  I suppose he does write notes on pieces of paper, but that's about it for his compositional skills; I've listened to some of his stuff.

[Norbeone]

Yes .. How could you.. Paul.. how?

Claim that Felix Mendelssohn is greater then Beethoven.. a crime!!!! shame on you!!!

Almost agreed there with Saul!!!!

How can that be?

Are you crazy!!!?

Mendelssohn against Beethoven? are you normal?

Could it be we actually got through to you?!

Keep up the good work, Saul!

[Saul]

Now Saul is holding himself up as a composer of music.  I suppose he does write notes on pieces of paper, but that's about it for his compositional skills; I've listened to some of his stuff.

Thanks for listening...!

[JoshLilly]

All opinions are equally valid?

I'd say, with regards to matters of personal taste, "Yes". How can it possibly be otherwise?

[Josquin des Prez]

How can it possibly be otherwise?

Some people are more intelligent and have greater sensibility then others not to mention experience and exposure.

[karlhenning]

Of course;  and let's say again (for this is a road we've been down several times already) that artistic evaluation is not solely a matter of personal preference.  I.e., it is not "purely" either 'subjective' or 'objective'.

So, yes, yes, a thousand times yes, Saul is entitled to like Mendelssohn above all other composers, just as Poju is entitled to like Elgar above all other composers, and paulb is entitled to like Pettersson above all other composers.

The question of which of the three is the greater composer, is something subtly other than liking this or that composer's music the most.

[BachQ]

Of course;  and let's say again (for this is a road we've been down several times already) that artistic evaluation is not solely a matter of personal preference.  I.e., it is not "purely" either 'subjective' or 'objective'.

You recognize, of course, that this conclusion is purely subjective .........

So, yes, yes, a thousand times yes, Saul is entitled to like Mendelssohn above all other composers, just as Poju is entitled to like Elgar above all other composers, and paulb is entitled to like Pettersson above all other composers.

We can agree that, as between Elgar, Pettersson, and Mendelssohn ........ Elgar is surely the least great ........

[karlhenning]

You recognize, of course, that this conclusion is purely subjective .........

I think so.

We can agree that, as between Elgar, Pettersson, and Mendelssohn ........ Elgar is surely the least great ........

I'd watch with considerable interest a tag-team grudge match between St Paul and The Apostles . . . .

[uffeviking]

Staying with the subject of the thread would definitely be an improvement! 

[The new erato]

I'd say, with regards to matters of personal taste, "Yes". How can it possibly be otherwise?

Taste is obviously subjective and I probably like som crappy music myself.

It is when one substitutes "prefer" with "greater than" that one runs into trouble.

[karlhenning]

Staying with the subject of the thread would definitely be an improvement! 

I'm okay with Bernstein saying that Beethoven was the greatest composer.  I mean, I thnk it's problematic to light on any one composer as "the" greatest, but it's a defensible, ineccentric proposal on Bernstein's part.

[Ephemerid]

Well, what one important factor is what sort of influence a composer has over other composers-- he serves as a standard-bearer for what a composer can and should aim for and acheive in terms of musical expression.  

The musical world would certainly be more impoverished without Mendelssohn, but the musical world without Beethoven would be utterly devestating.  Beethoven had radically changed the whole landscape in terms of individual expression, emotional intensity, musical construction, etc. (I think we easily forget sometimes just how radical he was)

Even when composers REJECT Beethoven, they are influenced by him, even if only negatively.  Beethoven has PROVOKED composers in such a way that he had to be answered.  Mendelssohn simply has not had that same sort of hold over composers, as a challenge, as a standard-bearer.  

That's not to say Mendelssohn is a bad composer-- but practically ALL composers have had to come to terms with Beethoven, whereas the same cannot be said for Mendelssohn.  Anyway, that's how I understand the word "great."

[JoshLilly]

Some people are more intelligent and have greater sensibility then others not to mention experience and exposure.

What if someone has more experience, is more intelligent, and has more exposure, and still doesn't like it? In any case, all those things have nothing to do with any relative values of personal taste (what is good or bad). You can choose to give more credence to one person's taste than another's... indeed, most people do this. But one is not more right than another, and can't be. "Good" and "bad" by their very definitions cannot be objective.

As a big Beethoven fan, I actually give Bernstein's opinion of Beethoven very little value whatsoever, based on the recordings I've heard of Bernstein conducting orchestral music of Beethoven. It just sounds awful to me, changed, modified, modernised. I hate it. If Bernstein were to make technical statements devoid of opinion (like "In Bar #xxx, this note is blah with such&such marking") I wouldn't argue: his knowledge exceeds mine by incalculable lengths. But a statement on "greatest" or "worst" or whatever doesn't depend on that.

[karlhenning]

"Good" and "bad" by their very definitions cannot be objective.

I've got a bag of bad walnuts for you, then.

[JoshLilly]

I've got a bag of bad walnuts for you, then.

I would personally choose to accept your evaluation of the walnuts as "bad", and not want them. This is one matter where I would choose to adopt your rating, for a huge list of reasons. However, if you said you had a "bad" banana, I might take it and see for myself, since I only like them when they have green on them, and most people consider them "bad" in that state. In that case, I would not choose to blindly heed your opinion. The personal taste remains mine: if I took the walnuts I might find them great (but probably not).

The list of reasons as to why this is different (for me) over your personal taste or assessments on music would probably end up being very long, including such things as (1) walnuts are not of crucial importance to me, (2) I tend to share majority opinions on "good" or "bad" when it comes to whether food is "spoiled" or not.