Is there any relationship at all

[mar208]

Mark, you may have hit the nail on the head with the description re breaking away. But I began a less "controversial" topic.

[Mark]

Mark, you may have hit the nail on the head with the description re breaking away. But I began a less "controversial" topic.

Don't imagine for a moment longer that this topic is in any way controversial. Round here, it's almost as tame as it gets. For real controversy, start a topic on religion ...

[Que]

Statistically higher education and classical music are definitely correlated (but don't ask me any quotes ).
I don't think they are directly linked, but they have two factors in common: above-average intelligence and, to a lesser extent, social class. IMO the former contributes to developing an ability to understand & appreciate art in general, including classical music, the latter provides a higher chance of exposure to it.

Q

[FideLeo]

I definitely don't think higher education necessarily means above-average intelligence 

[Mark]

I definitely don't think higher education necessarily means above-average intelligence 

I know it doesn't. If you'd worked alongside some of the thick-as-f**k graduates that I have in my time, you'd agree.

[Que]

I know it doesn't. If you'd worked alongside some of the thick-as-f**k graduates that I have in my time, you'd agree.

I bet they didn't listen to Beethoven.

Q

[Mark]

I bet they didn't listen to Beethoven.

Q

Or common sense, which many of those I've had dealings with seem to lack in abundance.

[FideLeo]

Or common sense, which many of those I've had dealings with seem to lack in abundance.

Is common sense rather the most important thing to have when listening to classical music?   

[Mark]

Is common sense rather the most important thing to have when listening to classical music?  

No. I was talking generally.

[Don]

What accounts for this disparity in musical tastes, leaving education aside, although I don't think we can.....what accounts for the idea that for every plumber who whistles Mozart, there are ten thousand who do not and will not?

And for every college graduate who whistles Mozart, there are ten thousand who do not and will not.

[c#minor]

between level of education and the love of classical music? This is a sensitive question for some but it need not be. And it can be said that those with higher levels of education have been EXPOSED to classical music more, and that is the reason they like it. But I think a person can complete college and graduate school and still not have any exposure to classical music, or at least no more than the person who left high school before graduation. This question has occurred to me more than once in the past and I was wondering if anyone has an opinion on it. The question is actually twofold: Is there any relation at all? and if so, why? Why would having more education predispose one to like classical music more than, say, a tradesman or manual laborer. They all have equal access to radio stations. The educated person did not acquire their liking of classical music by talking about it with others. So this is a serious question and believe me, it is not meant to plt uneducated vs educated, nor is it an idle speculation. It is a very interesting topic. So the arguments that educated people have more exposure to classical music or that they hear it more often or that they talk about it with others etc all those arguments seem to fall by the wayside and I am no nearer understanding this relationship (because I do think one exists) than I was before considering all these varied arguments. If the moderator feels that this is too controversial a topic, I will understand its deletion from the forum, but I have wondered about this for years. It is a little different with, say, English literature, because of exposure in college. E.g. it is highly unlikely that on a loading dock somewhere, there will be a discussion of Beowulf. This is neither good nor bad; it is just that it is highly unlikely, and that is because of lack of exposure. But educated people are no more exposed to classical music than uneducated. (?) So what does account for the perception that it is mostly educated people who like classical music? Where did this liking of classical music come from and why is it not seen nearly so often in the ranks of people who, say, are high school graduates?

Where you or are you a member of talkclassical b/c i used to roam those forums and this topic came up and man was it controversial.

Aside from that to to put my 2 cents in, i think the "educated" have a better appreciation for music that would not be considered "accessible to the masses." Such as Bach in come situations. Though Bach's Art of the Fugue is not easy to listen to at first i was inthralled in it's ingenuity. It is beyond me, it is beyond astounding. I love it, and being a composer i am envious of that work. It is hard to understand it's wonder if you have not tried to write in counterpoint. Hard hard hard hard hard hard hard hard. Especially with 4 voices and the complexity he uses. I am astounded by Bach every time i listen to his work but the Art of the Fugue, though not the most expressive of works, is a masterful piece of the "architecture of sound."

But on the other hand i have some of the "well educated" will dislike works that are full of wonder just because they might not by of a high academic level. I was told by one of my professors that Tchaikovsky's 5th was shit. To me saying that was blasphemy as well as a near mortal sin. I hope he changes his was before "judgment day".

So in hindsight i think it doesn't really matter all that much. As long as your love it then you are good. What does upset me though is when people try to say something is devoid of quality and they are just too ignorant to see it's beauty. It's okay to state your opinion but when you say something is bad and proclaim it is truth, that where people go wrong.

[DavidW]

I think that the most likely way for people to be introduced to classical music is through learning an instrument, usually as a child.  If there's a relationship between education and appreciation of classical music it's a third variable one and not a direct causal link imo.

[FideLeo]

No. I was talking generally.

Aha!   That explains why one reads so much non-sense even in a classical music forum.

I bet they didn't listen to Beethoven.

One can buy and listen to music all he wants and still remains a Philistine.  (Feel
the contempt Mozart held for Archibishop Collerado.)  Culture is not always like
capital or power in this regard, unfortunately.

[Que]

One can buy and listen to music all he wants and still remains a Philistine.  (Feel
the contempt Mozart held for Archibishop Collerado.)  Culture is not always like
capital or power in this regard, unfortunately.

Agreed, but I did not mean to include the nouveaux riches who occupy the best seats in the Concertgebouw on Sunday concerts with tickets freely provided by sponsors, and who pretend to be interested in the music - only to confirm their elitist status. 

Q

[johnQpublic]

One of the reasons I call myself "johnQpublic" is that I grew up in an extremely lower middle class family/neighborhood. No one in any part of the family went to college. In fact, my father didn't even technically graduate from high school. And yet I was into Classical Music by 8th grade. Meanwhile a dear aunt who worked the pen/pencil counter of a stationary shop held season tickets for the Philly Orchestra.

So I see no relationship.

[Que]

One of the reasons I call myself "johnQpublic" is that I grew up in an extremely lower middle class family/neighborhood. No one in any part of the family went to college. In fact, my father didn't even technically graduate from high school. And yet I was into Classical Music by 8th grade. Meanwhile a dear aunt who worked the pen/pencil counter of a stationary shop held season tickets for the Philly Orchestra.

So I see no relationship.

I've read on several occasions that research shows that classical music lovers on average have enjoyed higher education and are of middle/upper class origins. Note that I'm speaking of (statistical) correlations - it does not mean this is always the case. You decribe your middle class origins, mine are middle class as well, but are you highly educated? But then again, education is not the same thing as intelligence. Intelligence and exposure, that's all that is needed IMO. I've worked in a classical music store for seven years and have never encountered a classical music lover (a real one) of low (or not more than absolute average) intelligence.

Q

[Mark]

Que, could you clarify what you mean by 'intelligence'? I always make a clear distinction between an intelligent man (one who relates well to his surroundings and can assimilate and act on knowledge readily), and an intellectual man (someone with a lot of book learning but who isn't particularly good at applying his knowledge in a practical way). I realise these are only my subjective distinctions, but experience reveals that when people talk of 'intelligent', they often actually mean 'intellectual'. It's the intellectuals with whom I've had the greatest problems - many of those that I've met are very bright indeed, no doubt, but have little or no common sense and don't seem to relate well to everyday situations.

[Que]

Que, could you clarify what you mean by 'intelligence'? I always make a clear distinction between an intelligent man (one who relates well to his surroundings and can assimilate and act on knowledge readily), and an intellectual man (someone with a lot of book learning but who isn't particularly good at applying his knowledge in a practical way). I realise these are only my subjective distinctions, but experience reveals that when people talk of 'intelligent', they often actually mean 'intellectual'. It's the intellectuals with whom I've had the greatest problems - many of those that I've met are very bright indeed, no doubt, but have little or no common sense and don't seem to relate well to everyday situations.

That's easy Mark, I was thinking of the level of development of cognitive abilities, not "intellectual".

Q

[Mark]

That's easy Mark, I was thinking of the level of development of cognitive abilities, not "intellectual".

Q

That's cool. I had worried for a second that you were referring to those who simply hadn't had the benefit of further or higher education. But as you clearly didn't mean that, it makes your posts on this subject much easier to appreciate. So thanks.

[Sergeant Rock]

One of the reasons I call myself "johnQpublic" is that I grew up in an extremely lower middle class family/neighborhood. No one in any part of the family went to college. In fact, my father didn't even technically graduate from high school. And yet I was into Classical Music by 8th grade. Meanwhile a dear aunt who worked the pen/pencil counter of a stationary shop held season tickets for the Philly Orchestra.

So I see no relationship.

Nor do I. I see no correlation between educational level and a love and/or appreciation of classical music. My mother was married at 16 and had her first child (me) at 17. Her education ended with high school. And yet she was an astonishingly skilled pianist and organist and loved the classics. For whatever reason, I fell in love with classical music at age five, which predated my entering college by a year or two    I can definitely say educational level had nothing to do with it. Some of my earliest memories are watching the Voice of Firestone on television circa 1954...the year I graduated kindergarten.

Sarge