Serialism

[greg]

Ironically my wife would rather be out of the house when I have on anything OTHER than modern/serial/atonal.

I get more positive comments from her about the modern stuff than any other style of music!

I never dreamed it would be this way, what with my own fears about atonal's 'negative' typecasting.

So I consider myself quite lucky!

man, you ARE lucky 
if i get a wife that likes serial music, too, that would be so great...  0:)

my favorite serialism is the stuff of the 2nd Viennese- I like some stuff by Boulez and Carter, but it's much harder to get into, and one day I can like one of their works and the next day I don't care for it. Babbitt hasn't interested me, though I've heard very little; and as for Dallapiccola, I've only heard some Orchestral Variations which I really like.

[karlhenning]

What if I listen to it sometimes but not because of education - but because I like some of it (just as I like some of the tonal music I know)? I think you should add another option to the poll...?

Well done, Maciek!  That's my vote, too.

[Cato]

I have to be in the mood to listen to it (and my wife has to be out of the house). 

Dude!  We are in the same club!  That's called The Schoenberg Rule by my James-Taylor-fan wife.  She can make an exception for Verklärte Nacht, but even finds that a little too edgy.

[rappy]

Rappy, do you really mean serialism or do you mean atonal music?  Serialism is such a small subfield of modern classical that rarely listening to it is not synonymous with distaste for it.

No, I mean serialism only. There's no doubt that atonal music can be VERY listenable.

But when it comes to music which is only based on mathematical calculations, you have to ask yourself whether this is still music you "enjoy" listening to, don't you?

[karlhenning]

But when it comes to music which is only based on mathematical calculations

Oh! What music is that?

[71 dB]

Question to those who know:

Can serialism be written in sonata form or are they exclusive things?

[not edward]

Question to those who know:

Can serialism be written in sonata form or are they exclusive things?

It's possible, particularly if it's not strict sonata form. Schoenberg did a lot of things like that.

[71 dB]

It's possible, particularly if it's not strict sonata form. Schoenberg did a lot of things like that.

Oh.

[rappy]

Oh! What music is that?

wikipedia:

... - After the Second World War, students of Olivier Messiaen saw Webern's structure, and Messiaen's techniques of parameterization as the next way forward in composition. They began creating individual sets or series for each element of music. The elements thus serially determined included the duration of notes, their dynamics, their orchestration, and many others. They created the term serialism to describe what they were doing - ...

... - serialism differs from twelve-tone technique in that any number of elements from any musical dimension (called "parameters") may be ordered, such as duration, register, dynamics, or timbre - ...

Don't mix up serialism with the twelve-tone technique, although both terms are often used synonymously (by mistake!). What I mean is strict serialism.

There were composers who took an A, 12/16 (a dotted half note), ppp - the following note was e.g. a G sharp, duration of 11/16, pp, the last note maybe a B flat, duration of 1/16 fff. Then they added a counterpart with the same rules in inversed order (for example).

[Danny]

man, you ARE lucky 
if i get a wife that likes serial music, too, that would be so great...  0:)

my favorite serialism is the stuff of the 2nd Viennese- I like some stuff by Boulez and Carter, but it's much harder to get into, and one day I can like one of their works and the next day I don't care for it. Babbitt hasn't interested me, though I've heard very little; and as for Dallapiccola, I've only heard some Orchestral Variations which I really like.

I've enjoyed the Carter pieces that I have heard.  Sounded a lot like Berg and Schoenberg, to me.

[Steve]

Unfortunately, I am largely ignorant to the subject. Any reccomendations for a sensible introduction? 

[DavidW]

But when it comes to music which is only based on mathematical calculations, you have to ask yourself whether this is still music you "enjoy" listening to, don't you?

Well first of all following a set of instructions does not make it mathematical.  If a painter followed instructions for making their own canvases and their own paints, is their art nothing more than paint by numbers?  I think we have the same case here.  But your question made me think of a question...

If you were aware of how the flying buttresses redistributed the stress on the walls in the design of Notre Dame, would you no longer appreciate the beauty of the building?

[Maciek]

That's a good argument, David (mine was going to be more picky so I decided to withdraw 0:)). But I wonder if a more modern example wouldn't have been better? I've been told (I'm not sure if this is true) that medieval builders (no such thing as an architect in those times) did not really have the maths necessary to calculate all that stuff - they built it all on a mix of intuition and experience (hence also some terrible building disasters). The only ones who had decent mathematics in those times were the Arabs - and they weren't sharing. But maybe that's all made up...?

[karlhenning]

wikipedia:

Yes, but I am still interested in the question.

I do not deny that there was, after the war, a tendency to bring a lot of math into the compositional process.

Even so, I still wonder if there is any such thing as "music which is only based on mathematical calculations."

Of course, you may simply have been exaggerating rhetorically, and no worries.

[George]

Unfortunately, I am largely ignorant to the subject. Any reccomendations for a sensible introduction? 

To Carter or Serialism?

If Carter, I have and enjoy the SQ by the Composers QT.

[Don Giovanni]

"music which is only based on mathematical calculations."

As far as I know, Boulez's Structures I for two pianos is one of the earliest examples of integral serialism. I'd be happy to be informed of other works that go beyond this.

[greg]

wikipedia:
Don't mix up serialism with the twelve-tone technique, although both terms are often used synonymously (by mistake!). What I mean is strict serialism.

There were composers who took an A, 12/16 (a dotted half note), ppp - the following note was e.g. a G sharp, duration of 11/16, pp, the last note maybe a B flat, duration of 1/16 fff. Then they added a counterpart with the same rules in inversed order (for example).

This is a fun way to compose, but I don't see how the composers actually sat down and when they calculated the rhythm and dynamics and played through the piece, said to themselves, "This is exactly what I wanted."

As I've said before, serialism should be more of a tool for organizing things like themes, or maybe even other things like rhythm, if you want. If the tone row doesn't work throughout the piece, then it shouldn't be used throughout the piece just so you can say, "I totally serialized this thing, yo  ". But if you're really talented, like Schoenberg, it does work, I guess, though that's actually just a matter of opinion

[lukeottevanger]

As far as I know, Boulez's Structures I for two pianos is one of the earliest examples of integral serialism. I'd be happy to be informed of other works that go beyond this.

To take that a little further - Structures I is almost the only piece by Boulez which uses absolutely 'pure' total serialism, along with the scrapped Polyphonie X. There is very, very little 'purely mathematical' music such as rappy postulates around, and even then, we have to ask, with Karl 'I still wonder if there is any such thing as "music which is only  based on mathematical calculations" '

[greg]

To take that a little further - Structures I is almost the only piece by Boulez which uses absolutely 'pure' total serialism, along with the scrapped Polyphonie X. There is very, very little 'purely mathematical' music such as rappy postulates around, and even then, we have to ask, with Karl 'I still wonder if there is any such thing as "music which is only  based on mathematical calculations" '

Really? I would've thought that'd he'd have written a couple more. Probably, then, Babbitt is the guy who wrote the most totally serialized music.

[lukeottevanger]

It's a pretty fine distinction - you'd still have to describe the others as serial music. But after writing two or three works which were 100% strictly serial, Boulez was already exploring ways of extending the idea, admitting controlled improvisation, that sort of thing. There could be all sorts of explanations for this, of course.