Who are the mediocrities of conducting?

[Wanderer]

No harm or confusion intended in my previous posts.

I bet the insults were intended.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I noticed that you never said he didn't achieve great success, but like I said, my post was targetted at donywn, who apparently still has no idea what he's talking about, evident by his lame and pointless insult (who calls other people a zealot, seriously? I'm fine with forum troll, but zeal-ah, forget it).

Is there any reason why you're not directly responding to me personally? Instead of roundabout swiping at me through replies to other posters??

Well, allow ME to set the record straight without any middlemen!

You said this:

O god 

Which was uncalled for.

I countered with rhetoric of my own perfectly in keeping with the precedent you set in this quote.

Then you go off on a spitting spree spraying all in your wake and then get angry when you're called out!

Zealotry is a KIND word for what you've just dished out!!

Clear as a bell...

[Dancing Divertimentian]

...I think if you said that before all the rest, or even instead of all the rest, all of our reactions (Donwyn's included) might have well been different.

Thank you, Renfield. Indeed, that is certainly the case (for my part)...

[M forever]

You think Karajan couldn't direct the CSO, if he wanted to? Or Bernstein? Or Toscanini? Or Klemperer? Could Solti direct the BPO, the NYPO, the NBC SO, the Philharmonia? I don't know, but that is a more apt question in this context.

The CSO actually tried to get Karajan as principal conductor after Martinon. They waited several months for his response, but he never got back to them. So they got Solti. Which seemed to work out for them. They had a long and productive partnership. In addition to the CSO, which is definitely a very good orchestra, though not as good as some people think it is, he held positions with other very relevant organizations, such as the LPO or Covent Garden, and he was a very well liked guest with a number of true top orchestras such as the WP, SOBR, and also the BP - he didn't come to Berlin often for a long time, probably because of the rivalry between him and Karajan, but he started guest conducting regularly again in the second half of the 80s, and he was very highly respected by the BP. I think he was a very professional, experienced, and hard working conductor, but not necessarily someone who I would call a "great" conductor. He just didn't have that very unique personality as a musician that marks the truly "great" conductor. But he was a very good professional. He is best enjoyed in recordings with orchestras other than the CSO because his rather one-dimensional, black and white approach and rhythmic inflexibility paired with that orchestra's thinnish sound and stiff technical playing style often led to mediocre, unremarkable results which Decca however cleverly marketed with their extremely overengineered, screechy and harsh recordings which many even today mistake for being "very exciting". It didn't sound that bad live, but it didn't sound particularly good either. That also works the other way around: the CSO is best heard when conducted by more lyrical conductors who are also more sensitive to color and texture than Solti, such as Giulini and Abbado.

[eyeresist]

-- to me he sounds loud, aimless, and boring, as if he's trying to generate excitement but can't quite channel it to any musical purpose -- his rhythms don't flow, and he stomps around when he ought to be dancing, so to speak.

I'm not familiar with Solti's work, but this describes my reaction to his so-called "benchmark" Elgar recordings quite accurately.

I'll just go bang my head to some Black Metal.

[Bonehelm]

Is there any reason why you're not directly responding to me personally? Instead of roundabout swiping at me through replies to other posters??

Well, allow ME to set the record straight without any middlemen!

You said this:

Which was uncalled for.

I countered with rhetoric of my own perfectly in keeping with the precedent you set in this quote.

Then you go off on a spitting spree spraying all in your wake and then get angry when you're called out!

Zealotry is a KIND word for what you've just dished out!!

Clear as a bell...

Now I'm going to have to call you bullshit. You just said Solti didn't achieve "true artistic success". If you have an IQ higher than chipmunk, I think you know that is absolute BS and no one is going to agree with you, not even the most hostile of Solti haters. If you hate his music-making, stop listening to him, like I give a zealot's ass about your preferences. But when you make BS statements such as the one mentioned, you ought to be prepared for some insults thrown your way because you DESERVED it. Clear, smart guy?

[Brian]

Now I'm going to have to call you bullshit. You just said Solti didn't achieve "true artistic success". If you have an IQ higher than chipmunk, I think you know that is absolute BS and no one is going to agree with you, not even the most hostile of Solti haters. If you hate his music-making, stop listening to him, like I give a zealot's ass about your preferences. But when you make BS statements such as the one mentioned, you ought to be prepared for some insults thrown your way because you DESERVED it. Clear, smart guy?

Here's my "absolute BS statement": Perfect Fifth, you're just as vile and venomous as Saul and the rest, but at least you can spell.

[sound67]

Wilhelm Furtwängler.

[Renfield]

Thank you, Renfield. Indeed, that is certainly the case (for my part)...

You are very welcome.

Wilhelm Furtwängler.

[eyeresist]

Here's my "absolute BS statement": Perfect Fifth, you're just as vile and venomous as Saul and the rest, but at least you can spell.

Is there any possibility of you expressing your opinions in a more polite way?

[Renfield]

Is there any possibility of you expressing your opinions in a more polite way?

Though I am no longer part of that specific exchange, I do think Brian's rudeness was warranted, if rudeness ever is.

[M forever]

There is nothing rude in Brian's statement at all. What he says is true. That's not rude. You people need to learn to see the difference between political correctness and just calling things the way they are. Plus it was a little funny, too, that's always good. Although I disagree with Brian - Saul is not really venomous, he is just a true fanatic who appears to be convinced of what he is saying, and his efforts here and there to be venomous are mostly comical. Perfect Fifth on the other hand is just a little kid who needs attention. So he shits all over the forum, like toddlers do when they want attention. He makes absolutely no contributions here. Saul on the other hand does make some contributions which are worth discussing (at least a little bit).

[Haffner]

Wilhelm Furtwängler.

Hmmm. Playing his Tristan und Isolde and war-era LvB 9th I most definitely disagree.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Now I'm going to have to call you bullshit. You just said Solti didn't achieve "true artistic success". If you have an IQ higher than chipmunk, I think you know that is absolute BS and no one is going to agree with you, not even the most hostile of Solti haters. If you hate his music-making, stop listening to him, like I give a zealot's ass about your preferences. But when you make BS statements such as the one mentioned, you ought to be prepared for some insults thrown your way because you DESERVED it. Clear, smart guy?

I should be offended.

But I can't bring myself to feel anything other than pity.

You're so off base it actually makes me chuckle.

The fact is you smarted off and now you're angry that I shot back. But take heed, I was just following YOUR lead!

So lesson? Don't jump in the fire if you can't handle the heat...

[Brian]

Pardon me if I demonstrated a lack of tact - I'm not very good at being rude. But I have been reading this thread casually and have gotten absolutely sick of Perfect Fifth's behavior. That sentiment, at least, should be understandable.

[lukeottevanger]

This may be a case of a perfect fifth that is not equally tempered...

[FideLeo]

This may be a case of a perfect fifth that is not equally tempered...

Comment of the week. 

[head-case]

Pardon me if I demonstrated a lack of tact - I'm not very good at being rude. But I have been reading this thread casually and have gotten absolutely sick of Perfect Fifth's behavior. That sentiment, at least, should be understandable.

Hate the post, love the poster, my son.   0:)

[Bunny]

Poor old Erich Leinsdorf, what did he ever do to provoke such ire?

I think he was snoring on the podium when I saw him.  He just put the orchestra on autopilot and napped whenever I was in Symphony Hall. 

[eyeresist]

Re My previous post, I certainly didn't mean to accuse Brian of rudeness. I meant to quote Perfect FIFTH, but recently the wrong quotes end up in my posts for some reason. Sorry for any offense or confusion.


Edit: Actually, given the context, I'm surprised no-one accused me of heavy irony....