Most Intelligent Composers

[DavidRoss]

  Well the countless number of opera fans who flock to Bayreuth every year seem to disagree with you. Sorry but I am just not buying your argument about Wagner's music. 

It's not an argument, just a personal observation.  By my aesthetic criteria, his work is all terribly flawed.  I am not alone in this opinion.  By your criteria, his work is masterful.  You are not alone in that opinion.  It is even shared by some whose learned opinions I respect very much--like Mr. Simon, above.  However, I doubt that any but his most devoted acolytes would agree with you that the music of the Ring is "flawless."  There's a reason for the universal acclaim of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, and Brahms as supreme masters of their art.  And there's also a reason that Wagner does not share such universal acclaim.

[marvinbrown]

There's a reason for the universal acclaim of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, and Brahms as supreme masters of their art.  And there's also a reason that Wagner does not share such universal acclaim.

  and how do you reconcile that argument with Mahler's claim that there "was only Beethoven and Wagner- and no one else" ?  No mention of Brahms?? 

   I am now convinced more than ever that Wagner is quite possibly the most intelligent composer of them all.  More has been written about him and his works than any other composer.  He inspires critics, take a look at this thread for Christ's sake to discuss, argue, accuse, and defend him and his music dramas.  If that's not intelligence I don't know what is!


  PS:  I think this argument has run it's course.  We can argue and bicker over Wagner, his intelligence, his music dramas till the cows come home (moo!) and I doubt any of us here will be successfull in convincing the other to change their point of view.  So let's just listen to what we enjoy most and leave the arguments to posterity.  I'm sure there will be plenty of bickering over Wagner between members of future generations  .

  marvin

[karlhenning]

I sympathize with the "noise-makers" in regard to the "too long" or "too recititave-y" complaint.

I can also see eye-to-eye with a person whom finds Wagner in general to be an "acquired taste".

Well, and let's keep in mind the topic;  it was inevitable that some Wagner-enthusiast would nominate his idol as "the most intelligent composer."  One hopes that offering sensible opposition to this is not prosecuble as 'making noise against' the Bloat of Bayreuth.

To paraphrase Michael Palin:

"Forgive us, Richard, for this our dreadful toadying . . . ."

[karlhenning]

  and how do you reconcile that argument with Mahler's claim that there "was only Beethoven and Wagner- and no one else" ?  No mention of Brahms??

Well, I suppose that Mahler didn't have so high regard for Brahms as he did for Wagner, Marvin.  And Mahler was entitled to his own enthusiasms and preferences, but they aren't aesthetically binding upon the rest of the world.

[karlhenning]

It's not an argument, just a personal observation.  By my aesthetic criteria, his work is all terribly flawed.  I am not alone in this opinion.  By your criteria, his work is masterful.  You are not alone in that opinion.  It is even shared by some whose learned opinions I respect very much--like Mr. Simon, above.  However, I doubt that any but his most devoted acolytes would agree with you that the music of the Ring is "flawless."

Largely agree, though I'll reserve judgement on Tristan and Parsifal until some (probably remote, leave us be frank) future time when I investigate those operas properly.

There's much to like in the Ring, and even as is, it is a magnificent realization of an admirably ambitious scheme.  But my ears do not find it unalloyedly brilliant.

And again, viz. the topic, the Ring does not seal any case for Wagner being "the most intelligent composer."

[(poco) Sforzando]

  and how do you reconcile that argument with Mahler's claim that there "was only Beethoven and Wagner- and no one else" ?  No mention of Brahms?? 

   I am now convinced more than ever that Wagner is quite possibly the most intelligent composer of them all.  More has been written about him and his works than any other composer.  He inspires critics, take a look at this thread for Christ's sake to discuss, argue, accuse, and defend him and his music dramas.  If that's not intelligence I don't know what is!

That Mahler said something does not require us to agree. That a composer incites controversy and discussion is not proof of his intelligence.

All that said, I would certainly place Wagner as among the top ten composers - but there's much about his work that is artistically disturbing in ways that Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach are not.

[Haffner]

This is again off-topic (and just how objective can we be concerning this topic), but besides the strange dismissal of Brahms, Mahler erroneously left both himself and Anton Brucker out of the famous equation. So I wonder how much credibility we can actually lend to it.



Granted he might have been modest concerning himself, but Bruckner was becoming quite highly regarded symphony-wise during the time of that quote.

[DavidRoss]

  and how do you reconcile that argument with Mahler's claim that there "was only Beethoven and Wagner- and no one else" ?  No mention of Brahms??  [What argument?  Again, I've made no argument, only stated certain opinions and facts. (Others have already addressed the irrelevance of Mahler's comment.)]

   I am now convinced more than ever that Wagner is quite possibly the most intelligent composer of them all.  More has been written about him and his works than any other composer.  He inspires critics, take a look at this thread for Christ's sake to discuss, argue, accuse, and defend him and his music dramas.  If that's not intelligence I don't know what is! [Correct!]

  PS:  I think this argument has run it's course.  We can argue and bicker over Wagner, his intelligence, his music dramas till the cows come home (moo!) and I doubt any of us here will be successfull in convincing the other to change their point of view.  So let's just listen to what we enjoy most and leave the arguments to posterity.  I'm sure there will be plenty of bickering over Wagner between members of future generations  .  [Has anyone here tried to change another's point of view?  I've not--but I have tried to correct misstatements presenting opinion as if it were fact.]

[karlhenning]

In case Dave's middle comment is too subtle . . . neither the fact that more has been written about him and his works than any other composer, nor the fact that he "inspires" critics, haa any bearing whatever on the question of Wagner's intelligence.  It is puzzling (at the least) why you should take that as "confirmation" that he is "quite possibly the most intelligent composer of them all," Martin.

[Josquin des Prez]

  and how do you reconcile that argument with Mahler's claim that there "was only Beethoven and Wagner- and no one else" ?  No mention of Brahms?? 

Mahler also claimed that Brahms was Germany's greatest contrapuntist after Bach, greater then either Beethoven or Wagner. As you can see, things aren't as clear cut as they seem. 

[karlhenning]

Mahler also claimed that Brahms was Germany's greatest contrapuntist after Bach, greater then either Beethoven or Wagner.

There's a good case to be made there, meseems.

[BachQ]

Mahler also claimed that Brahms was Germany's greatest contrapuntist after Bach, greater then either Beethoven or Wagner. 

Ahhh!   AHA!  ........... Suddenly everything is falling into place ............ Everything is becoming clearer now ..........

[karlhenning]

Everything is becoming clearer now ..........

Yes, the increase in font size helped immensely 

[BachQ]

There's no need for me to utter the words "Brahms is God" when others will do this for me ............

[marvinbrown]

In case Dave's middle comment is too subtle . . . neither the fact that more has been written about him and his works than any other composer, nor the fact that he "inspires" critics, haa any bearing whatever on the question of Wagner's intelligence.  It is puzzling (at the least) why you should take that as "confirmation" that he is "quite possibly the most intelligent composer of them all," Martin.

 Not confirmation really, more like a convincing set of circumstances.  Take for example the controversy over traces of antisemitic messages in Wagner's music dramas.  Some argue (and I do not subscribe to their views) that Wagner cleverly  hid those messages in his operas and others claim that it is difficult to prove such accusations.  Wagner's works encourage debate, controversial debate no doubt. This is a testament to Wagner's intelligence, wicked intelligence in this case!



 marvin
 

[head-case]

  and how do you reconcile that argument with Mahler's claim that there "was only Beethoven and Wagner- and no one else" ?  No mention of Brahms?? 

The statement makes no reference to intelligence, and I fail to see why some remark tossed of by Mahler is in any way decisive in determining this question.  Presumably Mahler admired Wagner for pioneering the concept of music that goes on way too long, a critical component of Mahler's work.

   I am now convinced more than ever that Wagner is quite possibly the most intelligent composer of them all.  More has been written about him and his works than any other composer.  He inspires critics, take a look at this thread for Christ's sake to discuss, argue, accuse, and defend him and his music dramas.  If that's not intelligence I don't know what is!

By your measure, Wagner is only surpassed in intelligence by Britney Spears.  He certainly was original, but he failed to mold those original elements into true masterworks because of his intellectual weakness. 

[Haffner]

There's a good case to be made there, meseems.

I love it! "meseems"

Perhaps if we couldn't see the point, we could be "no-see-ums".

BWA-Ha-....


_^sorry

[karlhenning]

. . . This is a testament to Wagner's intelligence, wicked intelligence in this case!

Now the matter you are clouding is his possessing some intelligence (which hardly anyone contests), and elevating his character to the status of "the most intelligent composer" (puh-leeze). 

[karlhenning]

BWA-Ha-....

Good morning, Andy!

[Haffner]

Good morning, Andy!

Good Morning. Woo-Hooo!

Enjoying your scores this morning, Karl, no music, just reading. Just got the Bruckner 4th and 7th scores as well. Happy reading!

I'm off topic and drat me thusly!