Great Conductors of the 20th Century

[Maciek]

Are you telling me you'd take Dorati over five of the above?

In Russian repertoire, most of the time - yes. In Bartok, most of the time - yes. In Szymanowski - yes, always.

[mn dave]

In Russian repertoire, most of the time - yes. In Bartok, most of the time - yes. In Szymanowski - yes, always.

How about Dvorak?

I've added him.

Not that it really matters at this point.

[Maciek]

Not that it really matters at this point.

You never know. There may be 50 more people like me, waiting in the wings of this poll, trying to make up their minds. Thanks for adding Dorati - that's one name I'll probably choose.

And frankly, I've never heard his Dvorak! Will see what can be done about that.

[mn dave]

And frankly, I've never heard his Dvorak! Will see what can be done about that.

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=1177

[Maciek]

Hmmm! Thanks!


(I wonder what "an authentic Czech sound" is, BTW - I know I'm probably stupid, but I just don't get those things... )

[Opus106]

15 of the sets are available at ArkivMusic in their EMI Summer Sale.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/listPage.jsp?list_id=1173&page_size=100

[Maciek]

ArkivMusic is evil. And so is Amazon Marketplace. They ship only to select countries in the EU, not to mention omitting a large part of the rest of the world.

[jochanaan]

Are you telling me you'd take Dorati over five of the above?

His recordings of Respighi's "Pines of Rome" and "Fountains of Rome" with the Minneapolis Symphony are, if anything, better than Toscanini's.

[Bonehelm]

Karajan only has 15 votes....that's just not right.

[M forever]

I wonder what "an authentic Czech sound" is, BTW - I know I'm probably stupid, but I just don't get those things... )

Basically what you hear on classic recordings of the Czech Philharmonic. Rather "woody", "reedy", open woodwinds, dark but leaning towards  a more slender sound than traditional German brass playing, with very bright fortes, very focused string playing with a concentrated, hard core to the tone. The strong use of vibrato by all winds which can be heard in recordings from the 50s or so onwards is not stictly traditional, but it is an expressive extension of traditional styles of tone production.

[DavidRoss]

Karajan only has 15 votes....that's just not right.

Too many?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

ArkivMusic is evil. And so is Amazon Marketplace. They ship only to select countries in the EU, not to mention omitting a large part of the rest of the world.

Amazon proper or Amazon Marketplace?

AFAIK, the Marketplace sellers make their own rules. Many are independent and/or solo sellers so if they choose not to ship overseas there's little anyone can do. Most likely it's just a bunch of little guys keeping costs down by limiting their shipping.

As far as ArkivMusic, they're not exactly a comprehensive outfit anyway. Being based in the US there's much overseas product that's not even available from them. So someone overseas is much better off ordering from a 'local' music site. However, I admit the "On Demand" service is a nice perk, though...

Speaking of overseas product, I'd give anything to have the selection the overseas folk have. Recordings never reaching US soil would fill a tanker. And if someone just happens to want one (or more) of these "exotic" overseas recordings they have to pay through the nose since ordering overseas is blasted expensive nowadays. It costs double for us Stateside to order overseas. Yuck...

[Maciek]

AFAIK, the Marketplace sellers make their own rules. Many are independent and/or solo sellers so if they choose not to ship overseas there's little anyone can do. Most likely it's just a bunch of little guys keeping costs down by limiting their shipping.

No, sorry, you're completely wrong here. Though I don't blame you, who would want wade through all those Amazon FAQs? What I said applies to all Amazon Marketplace sellers, in all locations, on all local versions of Amazon (ie. .de, .co.uk, .ca etc.). The Amazon Marketplace only accepts payments from a very limited list of locations (so, in theory, they do ship anywhere - it's just that your credit card billing address can't be anywhere ).

[Maciek]

M, thanks for the comprehensive info. It's all more or less clear now, but some of my other doubts are still there:

Basically what you hear on classic recordings of the Czech Philharmonic.

So "an authentic Czech sound" is the sound of one Czech orchestra? Even given the country's small size, and even if it's 2 or 3 orchestras and not 1, I'd still say that's a bit silly.

[M forever]

So "an authentic Czech sound" is the sound of one Czech orchestra? Even given the country's small size, and even if it's 2 or 3 orchestras and not 1, I'd still say that's a bit silly.

The only thing "silly" here is your reply. Did I say in my post you can hear that "*only* in recordings of the Czech Philharmonic, and *only* *absolutely exlusively* in recordings of *that one* orchestra, but not *any others* ***at all***, really, *only* in the recordings of *that one* orchestra and *no other ones* on ***the planet***, no matter where they are"? Did I say that?
No, I didn't. I said that what you hear in their recordings (because they are by far the most recorded Czech orchestra) is what we would call "authentic". And then I tried to outline the most striking characteristics for you. And that doesn't mean that other Czech orchestras *aren't* authentic or don't sound like that, does it? I once had a Czech girlfriend who was very cute, if I say that, does that mean I am saying all other Czech girls are ugly??

[Maciek]

So, M, how many orchestras is your description of "an authentic Czech sound" based on?

[Maciek]

Oh, and to reply to your specific issues:

The only thing "silly" here is your reply. Did I say in my post you can hear that "*only* in recordings of the Czech Philharmonic, and *only* *absolutely exlusively* in recordings of *that one* orchestra, but not *any others* ***at all***, really, *only* in the recordings of *that one* orchestra and *no other ones* on ***the planet***, no matter where they are"? Did I say that?

And where, pray tell, did I say you said that? (In fact, if you had read both of my sentences, you would know I was aware that you are quoting Česká filharmonie only as an example )

And that doesn't mean that other Czech orchestras *aren't* authentic or don't sound like that, does it?

No. Neither does it mean they are - which was precisely what I asked about.

[DavidRoss]

Voting closes July 5.  I'm on the edge of my seat.

How ought we determine who "deserves the title?"  If by reputation, then it's predetermined, isn't it?  Most of us have no direct experience of these gents, I presume; our only connection is through recordings.  Is a conductor great because we like some of the recordings he participated in?  What about breadth of repertoire?  Or advocacy of new repertoire?  Resurrection of neglected repertoire?  Orchestra building?  Community outreach and music education?  Or fund raising ability?

(By the way--even though I'm not an Ohioan I have heard the CO play under W-M and was pleased to hear of his contract extension to 2018.  London's loss is Cleveland's gain.)

In looking at the voting so far, I'm struck by the few votes for Serge Koussevitzky.  Though far less famous than some of the others listed, most of us here should know of him, at least.  Yet I don't own a single record.  His heyday preceded the post-war "Golden Age" of recording, so on that basis he is far less likely to be known and admired than most of the others on the list above.  Yet recordings alone barely scratch the surface of his contributions.

As a young man in Russia, he became the principal bassist of the Bolshoi Orchestra.  A lifelong advocate of new music, in his youth he founding a publishing company and published works by Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, and Medtner.  As a conductor in Paris after The Great War, he championed new music there, and continued this advocacy after moving to the US and taking the reins of the BSO in 1924.  He built that orchestra up, developed community education programs, taught conducting at Tanglewood, and continued to champion contemporary composers including Copland, Piston, Harris, Sibelius, Ravel, Barber, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Wm. Schuman, Hanson, and Hindemith.  He was the mentor of young Leonard Bernstein.  He established a foundation to support new music that still thrives today.  Notable works commissioned either directly by him or by the Koussevitzky Foundation include Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms, Prokofiev's 4th Symphony, Copland's 3rd Symphony, Ravel's orchestration of Pictures at an Exhibition, Roy Harris's 3rd Symphony, and Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. 

If such profound influence doesn't qualify Koussevitzky as one of the greatest conductors of the 20th Century, then I'm at a loss to imagine more relevant criteria.

[Maciek]

I take it that, apart from other things, you're gently nudging me, M and our mutual travails towards the exit - I'll take the hint and keep quiet. Sorry for injecting the disruptive factor into an otherwise relaxed thread. 0:)

[Iago]

One attribute of being"older" is that I attended at least one "live" concert conducted by each of those men except Argenta, Busch, Coates, Furtwaengler, Golovanov,
Schuricht and Talich.


"Memories" serve me far better than volumes of technical information.