What does Beethoven's 9th symphony mean to you?

[Danny]

Puccini was a more successful opera composer 

Haha!  Fidelio is a marvellous little piece, though, Dr. Karl. 

[Danny]

It is if you compare either one during the time they actually crossed each other, mainly the 1780s. This is when both composers became more consistent in the works they produced but the older master could hardly keep up with the avalanche of masterpieces poured by his younger colleague. Haydn gained some ground during the 90s, but at that point Mozart was already six feet under.

I think what's really important is that both composers were pivotal in the development of the high classical style, something which is usually attributed to Haydn alone. Because of this, not many people realize just how revolutionary Mozart really was.

Who doesn't give Mozart his due?   

[karlhenning]

It is if you compare either composer during the time they actually crossed each other, mainly the 1780s. This is when both composers became more consistent in the works they produced but the older master could hardly keep up with the avalanche of masterpieces poured by his younger colleague. Haydn gained some ground during the 90s, but at that point Mozart was already six feet under.

But, it isn't a horse race.

[karlhenning]

Where Beethoven was a more successful composer period. 

Depends on how you define success;  and at any rate, see But, it isn't a horse race, above.

Puccini's work has never left the stage, practically from the time he wrote it.  I don't think he has any occasion to consider any success of Beethoven's in the light of rivalry, at all.

[karlhenning]

Haha!  Fidelio is a marvellous little piece, though, Dr. Karl. 

I have this wicked fantasy of someone standing at Beethoven's elbow, after all the work and sweat he put into Fidelio, after all the years and turmoil, and saying in Beethoven's ear:  Pretty good.

Now, how about writing another?

[Danny]

I have this wicked fantasy of someone standing at Beethoven's elbow, after all the work and sweat he put into Fidelio, after all the years and turmoil, and saying in Beethoven's ear:  Pretty good.

Now, how about writing another?

This time in Eye-talien.

[71 dB]

Elgar's The Spanish Lady is my favorite incomplete opera, and Elgar is my favorite incomplete opera composer . . . . . .

I suppose Mozart is your favorite incomplete Requiem composer?

[Danny]

I suppose Mozart is your favorite incomplete Requiem composer?

He did have time to finish his operas, though.

[Josquin des Prez]

But, it isn't a horse race.

Maybe, maybe not, but i think competition is a salutary attitude to have for an artist. If Beethoven hadn't felt the need to out do either Haydn or Mozart he would have never pushed himself to reach such an elevated summit. As an admirer and supporter of great music, i'm compelled to respect and acknowledge such efforts. If everybody is simply going to gloss over every degree of artistic achievement and claim that every musical work is as great as the next one (in it's own unique way, of course) then why even bother?

The pervasive relativism of contemporary discourse is too disengaging, almost feminine in nature. Anything that fosters empathy at the expense of achievement seems pretty boring to me.

My take on things, at any rate... 

[Bunny]

Bunny,

When have I in this thread suggested popularity ipso facto equates to over-rated?

Excuse me, you have said that Beethoven's popularity is proof that he's over-rated:

I don't understand what you are saying here. It is his very popularity that I am suggesting is what makes him over-rated; why does your comment negate it?

The key thing to note about Beethoven's popularity is that it is quite seperate from, for example, Puccini's; for people don't go about saying he is a genius on a level unmatched in history. I agree popularity itself doesn't equate to making something over-rated, but Beethoven's popularity does, for with it comes so-called objective arguments suggesting it is something profound and unique, whereas everyone admits they just like Puccini's tunz.

And that is the problem.

I am merely trying to point out that while popularity is no way to assess the greatness of anything, the fact that something is "popular" does not mean that it is not great.  Frequently, great things are of such quality that great masses of people recognize the quality.  Your main reason for believing Beethoven is over-rated is his popularity, and that is a ridiculous premise.

I've seen Leonardo's Mona Lisa used as the basis for cartoons and jokes all over the world.  It is one or the most reproduced works of art around.  The fact that Leonardo's Last Supper is also one of the most reproduced paintings in the world, and was the basis for a specious novel, doesn't make it less than a masterpiece either.  You may not prefer to listen to Beethoven if given a choice between Beethoven and Brahms.  Don might prefer to listen to Bach and 71dB (formerly known as Elgar) would prefer to listen to Elgar.  That cannot change the fact that Beethoven was one of the greatest composers who ever lived and that his Choral Symphony is one of the greatest and most important works composed in the annals of Western muisic.  The work is not over-rated.  It is what it is.

[Josquin des Prez]

Who doesn't give Mozart his due?   

You'd be surprised to learn just how miss understood this composer really is.

[Bunny]

Maybe, maybe not, but i think competition is a salutary attitude to have for an artist. If Beethoven hadn't felt the need to out do either Haydn or Mozart he would have never pushed himself to reach such an elevated summit. As an admirer and supporter of great music, i'm compelled to respect and acknowledge such efforts. If everybody is simply going to gloss over every degree of artistic achievement and claim that every musical work is as great as the next one (in it's own unique way, of course) then why even bother?

The pervasive relativism of contemporary discourse is too disengaging, almost feminine in nature. Anything that fosters empathy at the expense of achievement seems pretty boring to me.

My take on things, at any rate... 

Actually, I think that Beethoven had a huge ego.  He resisted comparisons to both Haydn (whom he didn't want to acknowledge as having taught him anything) and especially Mozart.  The comparison with Mozart would have been extremely odious to him because his drunk and abusive father dragged him around Europe as a child prodigy, always describing him as the "new" Mozart.  I think that Beethoven accomplished what he did because he was a unique genius when it came to music, finding a way to touch the emotional core of the human psyche through the use of pure sound. 

[karlhenning]

Maybe, maybe not, but i think competition is a salutary attitude to have for an artist.

Can be.

If Beethoven hadn't felt the need to out do either Haydn or Mozart he would have never pushed himself to reach such an elevated summit.

My crystal ball is not so clear on this as yours seems :-)

I don't see building upon the example of the past, as "outdoing" the past.  I don't know that we can limit the possible motivations for an artist to achieve greatness, to this way of viewing things.

If everybody is simply going to gloss over every degree of artistic achievement and claim that every musical work is as great as the next one (in it's own unique way, of course) then why even bother?

Oh, has someone been doing that? 

[karlhenning]

Every musical genius, is a unique genius.

Beethoven is not unique in that 

[Bunny]

You'd be surprised to learn just how miss understood this composer really is.

I happen to agree with this statement.  I think Mozart is appreciated by the masses for the sheer beauty of his sound, and undervalued for his innovations which for the most part only very musically sophisticated listeners understand.  He's the perfect example of the genius whose work functions on two levels -- an accessible one and a deeper, less accessible intellectual level as well.

[Don]

But that doesn't make his music anymore legitimately popular, thats my point.

Bringing the notion of "legitimate" into the mix opens up a can of worms.  Popularity has a definition, and legitimate is not an element of the definition.

[Don]

Puccini is a profound opera composer.
In fact he is my favorite opera composer of the romantic era.

If he's your favorite, he must be profound.

[Scriptavolant]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCn6CZ4d24k

[71 dB]

If he's your favorite, he must be profound.

Exactly, my taste is profound. 

[karlhenning]

Beethoven's 9th symphony means: