What does Beethoven's 9th symphony mean to you?

[Bunny]

Dittersdorf was Haydn's most important competitor! He was elevated to noble rank!

And Beethoven wasn't! Next thing I know, you'll be telling me Elgar was made a knight!

I retire from this fray, bloodied and defeated!

Actually Beethoven was believed to come from aristocratic background because the aristocracy of Vienna thought that the "van" in Beethoven's name was equivalent to the "von" in German names.  His less than noble origins weren't revealed until he sued his sister-in-law for custody of his nephew, at which time his family background came to light.  Beethoven may have been an egalitarian, but he wasn't above taking advantage of the mistaken perception that he was of more aristocratic birth. 

I can't believe this idiotism! How difficult is it understand that Dittersdorf, Vanhal, Hofmann and others were respected composers in their lifetime and unjustinly forgotten? Do you think the 18th century Vienese music life sucked so badly only Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven were able to compose good music? Dittersdorf was Haydn's most important competitor! He was elevated to noble rank!

Mediocrity abounds; greatness is rare.  The great art of the world always overshadows the less great.  If it didn't it wouldn't be great. Get over it.

[Scriptavolant]

But overall the judgments of history - that is, the cumulative assessments of generations of composers, performers, listeners, and musicologists - are harder to deny than you "free-thinkers" seem to realize.

I think that's right, but history itself could and should be judged from this point of view. Cumulative assessments are not monolithic and definitive systems of values; they tend to vary a lot throughout history, and afterall they're just the expression of a circumscribed and relative (historically) weltanschauung.

I do not agree with 71b, since I sense his arguments are a bit too "behaviourist"; greatness of a composer is not the product of repeated mechanical listening, but there's something true in the suggestion that cultural environment, and all the literature accumulated on a theme, may influence or drive individual judgements.

The point being, preferences are only that and nothing more

I think preferences make the musical world go round; people do not like music because a lot of books say that music is elevated, good, or the best; rational and irrational judgements are always merged in individual taste, and you cannot always quantify them.

[71 dB]

They're not forgotten now, as you keep bringing their names up on this thread.

Yes, these fine composers are found again. Recorded and played more. That's good!

[71 dB]

but there's something true in the suggestion that cultural environment, and all the literature accumulated on a theme, may influence or drive individual judgements.

That's EXACTLY what I am trying to say! Thank you Scriptavolant for putting it right as my English is clumsy.

[Don]

Yes, these fine composers are found again. Recorded and played more. That's good!

Yes, it is good.  There's much enjoyable music that isn't at the top echelon.  I'm currently revewing for MusicWeb a 2-SACD Capriccio set titled "Symphonies of the Mozart Era" containing works of Vanhal, Dittersdorf, J.C. Bach, Gossec, Reicha, Kraus and Mahaut.  Not one of the programmed works is a masterpiece, but each is highly rewarding with a fine blend of exuberance and grace.

[karlhenning]

They're not forgotten now, as you keep bringing their names up on this thread.

Unjustly, too.

[dtwilbanks]

The Beethoven 9th means really long threads.   0:)

[karlhenning]

The Beethoven 9th means really long threads.   0:)

Post of the Day! 

[Larry Rinkel]

The Beethoven 9th means really long threads.   0:)

It's a long symphony.

[dtwilbanks]

It's a long symphony.

And the length of this symphony determined the capacity of a CD.  0:)

[Bruckner is God]

It means very little to me, as I rarely listen to it. But I do enjoy it, especially in concert.
Beethoven's music means alot to me, but his symphonies is not what I listen to the most.
I love him first and foremost for his piano music.

[karlhenning]

And the length of this symphony determined the capacity of a CD.  0:)

You mean, mostly up to the 19th century? 

[PerfectWagnerite]

What is the capacity of a a regular audio CD nowadays anyway? I have  CDs that are 83 minutes long already.

[dtwilbanks]

What is the capacity of a a regular audio CD nowadays anyway? I have  CDs that are 83 minutes long already.

I thought it was 80 minutes. 83? That's interesting. Since they made it long enough to contain the 9th, I assume they could make it even longer if they wanted.

[Bunny]

I thought it was 80 minutes. 83? That's interesting. Since they made it long enough to contain the 9th, I assume they could make it even longer if they wanted.

I think they get the extra minutes with a particular setting in the software, so that there are no margins or space between tracks is compressed.

[Gurn Blanston]

I thought it was 80 minutes. 83? That's interesting. Since they made it long enough to contain the 9th, I assume they could make it even longer if they wanted.

Yes, they can play around with the burning software and squeeze more on there, as Bunny says. Just try to make yourself a copy for backup though! Not happening.

Yes, the 9th was chosen by SONY as the standard for CD length. Wiener Philharmoniker/Böhm pretty well pushed it to the limit, pretty sure it is 79 minutes and change.



PS - Anyone know how many 78's in a box to record a complete 9th, back in the day? Just curious...

[Bunny]

Yes, they can play around with the burning software and squeeze more on there, as Bunny says. Just try to make yourself a copy for backup though! Not happening.

Yes, the 9th was chosen by SONY as the standard for CD length. Wiener Philharmoniker/Böhm pretty well pushed it to the limit, pretty sure it is 79 minutes and change.



PS - Anyone know how many 78's in a box to record a complete 9th, back in the day? Just curious...

If you use EAC or another program like that or NERO, they let you fit it on a single disc.  Otherwise, you have to back it up to dvd or use 2 cds so backing up is possible.  It's just not convenient.

[Gurn Blanston]

If you use EAC or another program like that or NERO, they let you fit it on a single disc.  Otherwise, you have to back it up to dvd or use 2 cds so backing up is possible.  It's just not convenient.

That's it. I have the 3 disk set of Gardiner "Haydn's Late Masses", and 2 of the 3 disks were over 80 minutes. I nearly always put my originals away and take copies with me, and I ended up breaking them up into 5 disks in order to keep an entire work on a single disk.    is right! 

[Bunny]

That's it. I have the 3 disk set of Gardiner "Haydn's Late Masses", and 2 of the 3 disks were over 80 minutes. I nearly always put my originals away and take copies with me, and I ended up breaking them up into 5 disks in order to keep an entire work on a single disk.    is right! 

That's a DG trick.  They did the same thing with the Reinhard Goebel/Musica Antiqua Köln box set.  It really got me P'ed off.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Now that you mentioned it, the few CDs that I have that are over 80 minutes are all by DG. Of the top of my head the Thielemann Bruckner 5th clocks in at over 80 minutes. I guess they feel bad charging you two CDs for such a mediocre performance huh ?