Rachmaninov or Rachmaninoff?

[Brian]

Wheeeee! This is fun! I have to do this sort of thing more often! It's like I'm getting to know GMG for the first time all over again!

Wait till you start looking at "Who's Online" and the lists of who's reading the threads you're in. When I was "That's Hedley!", it was so bizarre and disorienting

Oh, and welcome to GMG 

[Don]

Has anyone noticed that Rachmaninov's music sounds different than Rachmaninoff's?

[karlhenning]

Sorry, I didn't realise that you were a troll.

That piddling attempt at personal remark is genuinely funny, coming as it does from a dilettante who tried to offer half-baked insight on Russian phonology, and directed at someone who offered knowledgable information as a corrective.

I applaud you as a comedian!

[jochanaan]

Has anyone noticed that Rachmaninov's music sounds different than Rachmaninoff's?

I hadn't noticed. I also hadn't noticed Prokofieff's music sounding different than Prokofiev's.

[M forever]

My own last name is accompanied by at least 3 different spellings also, the 2 incorrect ones have haunted me for a lifetime. Although they aren't wrong at all, merely not the way my particular ancestors chose to spell it.

Or maybe the immigration officers on Ellis Island did..."Vito Andolini...di Corleone" - "What? OK, Vito Corleone."

There's no English word for Detroit?

Sure there is. And yes, I know that you know that. But Karl apparently doesn't. Hmmm...why are there so many places and regions in the US, a predominantly English speaking country, that look like they come from the French, and the further north you get, the more you find (e.g. "Vermont", the capital of which is "Montpelier")? Hmmm...I guess it's time for Karl to google some American history!
The anglicized French names, and in some cases the anglicized French versions of originally "Indian" or "native American" names ("Illinois") tell a story, reflect a historical situation...just like the spelling version "Rachmaninoff" does. So "Detroit" is actually a really good example for what we are talking about, although that obvoiusly wasn't what Karl intended. But thanks anyway.

Oh, BTW, "Karl" is the historical form of a German word which means "strong guy". But - the correct modern form is "Kerl". I would say that the form "Karl" reflects what an old name it is, and since it is a name, it should be spelled in that traditional way. Karl, however, will insist on the linguistically correct modern form.

So, Karl - have you filed the paperwork yet to change your name to "Kerl"? While you are at it, also change your last name to "Heinrich", OK? Because "Henning" is an old north German dialect form of "Heinrich". But since you insist on everything being analy linguistically correct, your corrected name will from now on be "Kerl Heinrich".

[Brian]

My own last name is accompanied by at least 3 different spellings also, the 2 incorrect ones have haunted me for a lifetime. Although they aren't wrong at all, merely not the way my particular ancestors chose to spell it.

Mine too - actually, now that I think of it, at least five.

[zamyrabyrd]

Has anyone noticed that Rachmaninov's music sounds different than Rachmaninoff's?

Wow, what a nice coincidence, the 2nd mv't of PC3 in the background on Mezzo and finding out I was not too much out of the loop all this time since this orthographical discussion is still going on. Now that the Piano Lit and Music History exams are typed up and read to go for Thursday, now I can sit back and enjoy real musical discussion without bothering to tell students to shut off their mobile phones or refrain from eating in the class. I was really looking forward to getting my internet life back!!

Now, what would really clinch the argument for me if the last consonant is voiced or not. If in Russian if it is somewhere in between, I guess either spelling is OK.

See ya around,
ZB

[M forever]

Now, what would really clinch the argument for me if the last consonant is voiced or not. If in Russian if it is somewhere in between, I guess either spelling is OK.

That is a completely irrelevant question in this context. We aren't talking about how Russian words and names in general can be transliterated, what options there are, what systems there exist in various languages. That has absolutely nothing to do with the subject. We are talking about how the composer himself decided his name should be spelled in Western script, and the ignorance reflected by people who a) don't know that and b) find it beyond themselves to accept the man's decision.

Mine too - actually, now that I think of it, at least five.

Isn't your last name "Reinhart" or something like that?

[zamyrabyrd]

That is a completely irrelevant question in this context. We aren't talking about how Russian words and names in general can be transliterated, what options there are, what systems there exist in various languages. That has absolutely nothing to do with the subject. We are talking about how the composer himself decided his name should be spelled in Western script, and the ignorance reflected by people who a) don't know that and b) find it beyond themselves to accept the man's decision.

Excuse me, isn't it being a more than a little Quixotic to defend the allegedly wounded sensibilities of someone for whom this may have been a non-issue. I have personal experience with this. You wouldn't believe how chopped up my name gets in Japanese, for instance. But in general since good intentions are behind the attempt to pronouce or write my name, I don't mind it. And I'm sure I mispronounce others' names as well. So even-steven.

I more or less insist upon the right English spelling of my name (since English speakers are more hung up about spelling issues, it seems) but approximations can't be helped in other systems and scripts.

Also, I pronounce my own name differently when speaking other languages just to fit into the sound pattern. Most of the time I answer the phone as Zhan-net.

ZB

PS By the way do you roll the initial "r" in Rachmaninoff, or use the improper English "r"?

[(poco) Sforzando]

I hadn't noticed. I also hadn't noticed Prokofieff's music sounding different than Prokofiev's.

But I trust you will acknowledge that the German spelling "Prokofjew" gives an entirely fresh perspective to the Overture on Hebrew Themes.

[Lethevich]

Because it's the version he decided for

How about Handel? I think that a while after the move he stopped using it.*

*Err, the umlaut, that is

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

How about Handel? I think that a while after the move he stopped using it.*

*Err, the umlaut, that is

Many thanks for that footnote.

[Lethevich]

Many thanks for that footnote.

Indeed, a ridiculous omission... Proofreading is too much to expect from someone so lazy and tired as me

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Indeed, a ridiculous omission... Proofreading is too much to expect from someone so lazy and tired as me

If laziness and tiredness lead to a broad grin on my face, you won't get any complaint from me. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

How about Handel? I think that a while after the move he stopped using it.*

*Err, the umlaut, that is

He adopted the spelling George Frideric Handel when he became a British citizen, but was born as Georg Friedrich Händel.

[Maciek]

Oh, BTW, "Karl" is the historical form of a German word which means "strong guy". But - the correct modern form is "Kerl". I would say that the form "Karl" reflects what an old name it is, and since it is a name, it should be spelled in that traditional way. Karl, however, will insist on the linguistically correct modern form.

So, Karl - have you filed the paperwork yet to change your name to "Kerl"? While you are at it, also change your last name to "Heinrich", OK? Because "Henning" is an old north German dialect form of "Heinrich". But since you insist on everything being analy linguistically correct, your corrected name will from now on be "Kerl Heinrich".

M, you're inconsistent, which probably means you didn't understand my argumentation. First you champion sticking to old forms of spelling (such as "Rachmaninoff"). And then... you mock precisely the approach you championed?! (Which, at least in relation to what Karl has said so far, is neither here nor there.)

[Brian]

Isn't your last name "Reinhart" or something like that?

Reinhart, Reinhardt, Rheinhardt, Rinehardt, Rinehart, Rhinehart ... we're all the same. 

[Wanderer]

Reinhart, Reinhardt, Rheinhardt, Rinehardt, Rinehart, Rhinehart ...

...on a Rheinfahrt.

[M forever]

He adopted the spelling George Frideric Handel when he became a British citizen, but was born as Georg Friedrich Händel.

Händel/Handel never became a British citizen.

Reinhart, Reinhardt, Rheinhardt, Rinehardt, Rinehart, Rhinehart ... we're all the same. 

The last couple of versions are obviously already aglicized though. Variations like "rine..." or "rhine..." don't exist in German. "Rain" (which would be pronounced like "rine", not like water falling from the sky), "reyn" or even "rayn" would be possible and kind of look like some really old names look, but I don't think I have ever seen them. As you probably know, the name is actually a first name although it is not so uncommon as a family name either.

M, you're inconsistent, which probably means you didn't understand my argumentation. First you champion sticking to old forms of spelling (such as "Rachmaninoff"). And then... you mock precisely the approach you championed?! (Which, at least in relation to what Karl has said so far, is neither here nor there.)

That's called "being sarcastic" or "beating someone with his own weapons".

[Maciek]

That's called "being sarcastic" or "beating someone with his own weapons".

But what you're doing is beating yourself with someone else's weapon!