The Evidence Of The Hardcore Wagnerian

[(poco) Sforzando]

Neither have I. I find his monologue both musically and dramatically compelling.

And I do not. Not at all. After the rapturous conclusion of the love duet I find it a distinct letdown in every possible way - melodically, rhythmically, texturally, you name it. For ten minutes the monologue just crawls along in its stop-and-start, recitative-like manner, always tied to that one Leitmotiv and with a text that says the same thing over and over. Can you honestly tell me you'd feel any great loss - or even notice - if five minutes of that monologue were cut?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

And I do not. Not at all. After the rapturous conclusion of the love duet I find it a distinct letdown in every possible way - melodically, rhythmically, texturally, you name it. For ten minutes the monologue just crawls along in its stop-and-start, recitative-like manner, always tied to that one Leitmotiv and with a text that says the same thing over and over. Can you honestly tell me you'd feel any great loss - or even notice - if five minutes of that monologue were cut?

Yes.

This is the first time we actually hear Marke, so it is right that he 'introduces' himself. For the first time we get to see his side of things. And there are three persons in this relationship ('a bit crowded' as the late Princess Diana famously said).

Another thing - you must see Mark's monologue in the framework of the whole Act. We've had expectancy and distress (Isolde/Brangäne), followed by the great love duet (with two 'breathers' by Brangäne), leading to a terrific climax - ecstasy for T & I and a warning scream by B. After all this, and after all that intense music comes the cold light of day, the reality principle if you will in the shape of the disconsolate Marke. I think it's expertly judged by Wagner. After this you get the poignant reminiscences of the love music we've just been hearing (statements by I & T), and Tristan's fight with Melot, which brings the whole arc to a very satisfying conclusion (though not for the lovers!).

So, yes: I think Mark's monologue is excellent, musically, dramatically, architecturally. But you need the context of the whole Act and a good performance, of course, to give you a sense the thing is really developing and growing, fed by 'that one Leitmotiv', not 'tied' to it.

[jochanaan]

...But you need the context of the whole Act and a good performance, of course, to give you a sense the thing is really developing and growing, fed by 'that one Leitmotiv', not 'tied' to it.

Good points.  More than almost any other opera composer, Wagner created music that flows in a single dramatic arc throughout an act.  You just don't get that arc when you only listen to excerpts.

[drogulus]

If someone is enticed by the libretto/drama at first that's fine. But hopefully they will come to see that the value of an opera lies in the blending of the vocal and orchestral sounds. 

It's very dispiriting to see directors today (i.e. Peter Gelb at the Met) trying to make opera more dramatically convincing because they are trying to attract an audience that is more comfortable with television and cinematic drama... 

    I haven't yet learned to appreciate opera, so I'm not about to decide in advance what elements are extraneous to it. What bothers me about what you say is not that you don't find the text and drama part of the aesthetic experience, but that it's a superior position to see it that way. Why? The comparison with TV and film drama actually works against your understanding, not in favor of it. Operas are dramas, and it's not some contemporary distortion to understand them that way.

    If I take up opera at some point, I might do it in a manner similar to yours, valuing principally the music and voices. I'd still want to learn something about how it's all supposed to work together, though, even if I never really grow to appreciate all the elements the way the composer intended.

[jochanaan]

...I'd still want to learn something about how it's all supposed to work together, though...

That's simple.  The music enhances the drama; the drama gives the music purpose; together, they comprise the operatic experience.  Yes, it's really that simple.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Yes.

This is the first time we actually hear Marke, so it is right that he 'introduces' himself. For the first time we get to see his side of things. And there are three persons in this relationship ('a bit crowded' as the late Princess Diana famously said).

Another thing - you must see Mark's monologue in the framework of the whole Act. We've had expectancy and distress (Isolde/Brangäne), followed by the great love duet (with two 'breathers' by Brangäne), leading to a terrific climax - ecstasy for T & I and a warning scream by B. After all this, and after all that intense music comes the cold light of day, the reality principle if you will in the shape of the disconsolate Marke. I think it's expertly judged by Wagner. After this you get the poignant reminiscences of the love music we've just been hearing (statements by I & T), and Tristan's fight with Melot, which brings the whole arc to a very satisfying conclusion (though not for the lovers!).

So, yes: I think Mark's monologue is excellent, musically, dramatically, architecturally. But you need the context of the whole Act and a good performance, of course, to give you a sense the thing is really developing and growing, fed by 'that one Leitmotiv', not 'tied' to it.

I've seen Tristan at least five times in the opera house, and heard it many more. It is precisely within the context of the whole act that the Marke episode sounds by comparison so dull.

[Anne]

I've seen Tristan at least five times in the opera house, and heard it many more. It is precisely within the context of the whole act that the Marke episode sounds by comparison so dull.

Life is made up of the dark and the light.  We see how carried away T and I take things.  In the dark they have built up quite a head of steam with their love duet.  It is the job of Mark and his music to bring everyone back to reality, to the cold light of day.  His performance helps the audience understand the concepts of night and day and to understand why T and I dislike day so much.

Rene Pape has received a lot of praise for his rendition of King Mark.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I've seen Tristan at least five times in the opera house, and heard it many more. It is precisely within the context of the whole act that the Marke episode sounds by comparison so dull.

Then we must agree to disagree, Sfz.

[marvinbrown]

I've seen Tristan at least five times in the opera house, and heard it many more. It is precisely within the context of the whole act that the Marke episode sounds by comparison so dull.

  King Mark's role is already small enough and the opera needs a scene where the audience gets to hear him.  Think of it this way, two forbidden lovers get caught and their affair is exposed don't you think the audience would expect to hear King Mark's reaction?

  marvin

[marvinbrown]

Life is made up of the dark and the light.  We see how carried away T and I take things.  In the dark they have built up quite a head of steam with their love duet.  It is the job of Mark and his music to bring everyone back to reality, to the cold light of day.  His performance helps the audience understand the concepts of night and day and to understand why T and I dislike day so much.

Rene Pape has received a lot of praise for his rendition of King Mark.

  That's a wonderful analysis Anne and one that I agree with!  After all the "orgasmic" euphoria of the love duet the bitterness of reality must settle in and the audience brought back to the storyline. I can not think of a better way of doing this than to bring the character of King Mark back into the minds of the audience.

  As much as I love Rene Pape, you should hear Matti Saliminen in the role of King Mark- astounding!
  marvin

[(poco) Sforzando]

Life is made up of the dark and the light.  We see how carried away T and I take things.  In the dark they have built up quite a head of steam with their love duet.  It is the job of Mark and his music to bring everyone back to reality, to the cold light of day.  His performance helps the audience understand the concepts of night and day and to understand why T and I dislike day so much.

Rene Pape has received a lot of praise for his rendition of King Mark.

Rene Pape does as much as can be done with the part. For one thing, he makes Marke look younger than the usual doddering fool. Unfortunately Wagner's music at this point does a lot to make Marke sound like a doddering fool. Anne makes perfect sense in her analysis, yet this 15-minute stretch of music remains tedious.

[Anne]

  That's a wonderful analysis Anne and one that I agree with!  After all the "orgasmic" euphoria of the love duet the bitterness of reality must settle in and the audience brought back to the storyline. I can not think of a better way of doing this than to bring the character of King Mark back into the minds of the audience.

  As much as I love Rene Pape, you should hear Matti Saliminen in the role of King Mark- astounding!
  marvin

Thanks for the compliment, Marv.  This type of discussion is what I love - especially when everyone researches the opera or shares anything he may have discerned on his own.  I liked your post also.

[Anne]

Rene Pape does as much as can be done with the part. For one thing, he makes Marke look younger than the usual doddering fool. Unfortunately Wagner's music at this point does a lot to make Marke sound like a doddering fool. Anne makes perfect sense in her analysis, yet this 15-minute stretch of music remains tedious.

Thank you, Sforz.  Do you think this 15-minute stretch of music being tedious could have been deliberate on Wagner's part?  It does let the audience experience "in the flesh" so to speak what T and I dislike so much about day.  I wonder if we could go so far as to say that Mark symbolizes day?

Another purpose for Mark's music could be the forerunner of the mood in Act 3? The audience has to get off that high level T and I were on somehow.

[karlhenning]

I think a composer being deliberately tedious is a dodgy aim at best.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I think a composer being deliberately tedious is a dodgy aim at best.

That's why Wagner isn't. Not here, at any rate. 

[Anne]

That's why Wagner isn't. Not here, at any rate. 

Jezetha, I understand the dramatic reason for Mark's music.  Since you enjoy it so much, would you mind expanding on why you enjoy it musically?  What goes through your mind as you listen to Mark?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Jezetha, I understand the dramatic reason for Mark's music.  Since you enjoy it so much, would you mind expanding on why you enjoy it musically?  What goes through your mind as you listen to Mark?

I admire the wonderful tension between emotion and restraint. The way the music is sometimes rather matter-of-fact ('tedious'), as if Marke wants to hold his feelings in check, and how sometimes the most poignant melodic-harmonic turns make his pain audible. I could go through Marke's monologue line by line to point out the places where the music blooms and where it seems to die, where Marke 'reins himself in' as it were, and where he has to reveal what he feels.

Marke may represent the world of lies and honour T & I reject, he may be blind to the night, so to speak, but his wounds are real. Wagner makes these audible.

[(poco) Sforzando]

  That's a wonderful analysis Anne and one that I agree with!  After all the "orgasmic" euphoria of the love duet the bitterness of reality must settle in and the audience brought back to the storyline. I can not think of a better way of doing this than to bring the character of King Mark back into the minds of the audience.

This is perfectly fine as an account of the textual and dramatic significance of Marke's monologue. I am not contesting its dramatic significance, day vs. night, bitterness of reality, or any of that. What I miss is any account of the musical texture. For this listener, at least, what Jezetha calls "matter-of-fact" I call musically uninspired.

[marvinbrown]

This is perfectly fine as an account of the textual and dramatic significance of Marke's monologue. I am not contesting its dramatic significance, day vs. night, bitterness of reality, or any of that. What I miss is any account of the musical texture. For this listener, at least, what Jezetha calls "matter-of-fact" I call musically uninspired.

  Well you are entitled to your opinion  . However,  in line with the title of this thread, is it fair for me to deduce from the sentence you posted above in bold (pun intended  ) that you are not a hardcore Wagnerian? 

  marvin

[Anne]

I admire the wonderful tension between emotion and restraint. The way the music is sometimes rather matter-of-fact ('tedious'), as if Marke wants to hold his feelings in check, and how sometimes the most poignant melodic-harmonic turns make his pain audible. I could go through Marke's monologue line by line to point out the places where the music blooms and where it seems to die, where Marke 'reins himself in' as it were, and where he has to reveal what he feels.
Marke may represent the world of lies and honour T & I reject, he may be blind to the night, so to speak, but his wounds are real. Wagner makes these audible.

Like Sforzando I do not find Mark's music very interesting. Would you mind going through the monologue and point out where the music blooms and where it seems to die?  I would be very appreciative if it's not too much trouble.  What recording do you recommend to hear this music of Mark's the best?  I have Bohm, Furtwangler, Kleiber, Levine, and probably some others I am forgetting.  If you prefer I try it myself, what recording would you recommend for that?  Thank you for any insight you can give.

I wondered if others noticed the style of writing for Kerwenal's music?  It is particularly noticeable at the beginning of the third act and is unlike any of the other characters.  I reminds me of Mozart's musical characterization of Cherubino where he is such a 14-year-old fly-by-night character with all his hormones going wild.  He has that one famous aria where Mozart makes the music describe his character.

Another Mozart characterization is in Don Giovanni as DG attempts to seduce Zerlina in a duet.  The music begins with DG in his own key and Zerlina in her own different key symbolizing her resistance to DG.  As they continue to sing, eventually she capitulates and joins DG in his key.

I would love to know of other examples of this.  I am not a musician and it is difficult to find more.