A British Composer Poll

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

RVW, Purcell, Elgar

[karlhenning]

Bax and Finzi, I suppose, but my "Other" vote is for Dowland!

A composer whose work figures so dramatically in The Sot-Weed Factor!

[Hector]

That's part of the creative process, Hector. An unpolished La Mer is an unfinished La Mer.

So - Eastbourne it remains...   

I'll drink a pint of London Pride to that!

[Hector]

Yes, and the piano preludes quote two national anthems - the British, fairly fully and boldly, and the French, in a fragmentary, allusive way. It's clear from this, too, that Debussy was a wanabe Englishman. 

I'd forgotten that.

Wasn't Beethoven given an English piano?

Which, clearly, makes him....

[Hector]

Dvorak's 8th was known for years as his "English" symphony. Sadly, the Yanks have already grabbed him for their own.

I did not know that.

Then again, the best performances of this work on disc tend to be by British orchestras and/or conductors.

He, also, liked a drink, did Antonin, seeking out the emigre Czech drinking clubs in the USA when he was there.

Clearly, then, Tone's English!

[PerfectWagnerite]

I did not know that.

Then again, the best performances of this work on disc tend to be by British orchestras and/or conductors.

Really? Which performances do you have in mind. I can think of Colin Davis/Amsterdam, Dorati/LSO, Rowick/LSO, Kertesz/LSO. There is also Constantine Silvestri but I forget the orchestra. But in any case the LSO is pretty much a cosmopolitan orchestra that plays well for most conductors in pretty much the entire repertoire. I would say there are probably just as many good recordings of this work with British bands/conductors as with non-British.

Dvorak's 8th was known for years as his "English" symphony. Sadly, the Yanks have already grabbed him for their own.

Whoever called this work the "English" symphony did not mean it as a compliment. It is a jab against the garden-variety English symphony of the time which are meandering, rhapsodic, and lacking in formal integrity or motific development.

Where did you get the idea that the Yanks grabbed him for our own, certainly not in the same way the British grabbed Handel as their own.

[Lethevich]

Whoever called this work the "English" symphony did not mean it as a compliment. It is a jab against the garden-variety English symphony of the time which are meandering, rhapsodic, and lacking in formal integrity or motific development.

Where did you get the idea that the Yanks grabbed him for our own, certainly not in the same way the British grabbed Handel as their own.

Touchy

[Hector]

Really? Which performances do you have in mind. I can think of Colin Davis/Amsterdam, Dorati/LSO, Rowick/LSO, Kertesz/LSO. There is also Constantine Silvestri but I forget the orchestra. But in any case the LSO is pretty much a cosmopolitan orchestra that plays well for most conductors in pretty much the entire repertoire. I would say there are probably just as many good recordings of this work with British bands/conductors as with non-British.
Whoever called this work the "English" symphony did not mean it as a compliment. It is a jab against the garden-variety English symphony of the time which are meandering, rhapsodic, and lacking in formal integrity or motific development.

Where did you get the idea that the Yanks grabbed him for our own, certainly not in the same way the British grabbed Handel as their own.

All of them and more. Halle/Barbirolli, for example.

The "English" jibe seems to have rebounded as this is one of Dvorak's most melodic and sunniest of symphonies much liked by us English!

[PerfectWagnerite]

The "English" jibe seems to have rebounded as this is one of Dvorak's most melodic and sunniest of symphonies much liked by us English!

Really? But the English aren't in the habit of writing sunny symphonies, for example those of Elgar, RWV, Brian.

[eyeresist]

I think Dvorak 8 was called English because it was first published there. I'd have to check, but I think it might also have been an English orchestral commission.

Regarding Dvorak's appropriation to those United States, I looked on Cafepress for a Dvorak T-shirt, and the best design prominenty featured the statue of liberty! It's often claimed that the 9th symphony was inspired not only by Antonin's visit to America but also by African American or Native American tunes - so it's basically a tone poem about the good ol' USA. We know that sketches for an unwritten opera on Hiawatha were incorporated into the inner movements, but otherwise there's little in the music to suggest it wasn't written in Bohemia. Also, the notion of Dvorak prominently borrowing folk tunes for his symphonies has no precedent. He incorporated a tune his sister-in-law loved into the cello concerto to commemorate her death, but I don't know of any other examples. Dvorak was abundant in original melodic invention, and had no need to incorporate "found" material as certain other nationalist composers did.

Really, the reason critical emphasis on the programmatic possibilities of the 9th bothers me is that the music itself is in a way overlooked or undervalued. I find it emotionally a very dark work (that final chord is chilling) and formally very interesting, and I wish these aspects would receive the greater emphasis.

Um... now back to those British composers!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Really? But the English aren't in the habit of writing sunny symphonies, for example those of Elgar, RWV, Brian.

The weather doesn't allow it.

[karlhenning]

I think Dvorak 8 was called English because it was first published there. I'd have to check, but I think it might also have been an English orchestral commission.

Credit for one out of two 

The score is dedicated "To the Bohemian Academy of Emperor Franz Joseph for the Encouragement of Arts and Literature, in thanks for my election"; Dvořák's publisher, Simrock, offered him a scant 1000 marks for the score of the Eighth (5000 less than he had received for the Seventh, which was an instant success).  The composer took that paltry offer as the publisher exercising his right of first refusal;  and he sold the score instead to Novello in England.

And, when Dvořák received an honorary Doctor of Music from Cambridge, he submitted the Eighth as his obligatory exercise.

So there are English associations with the piece, but it was not English in origin, so to speak.

[Lethevich]

Indeed, it was the 7th which was commissioned in England, by the London Philharmonic Society.

[karlhenning]

Go, Sara, go! 

[eyeresist]

*bingbingbingbingbing*

Well done, everyone, and thanks for playing. Collect your prizes at the door.

[Hector]

Really? But the English aren't in the habit of writing sunny symphonies, for example those of Elgar, RWV, Brian.

Alwyn, German (upon whom the sun seems to have set), Sullivan, Stanford, Arnold and Simpson can all be quite sunny on occasions.

[Hector]

Indeed, it was the 7th which was commissioned in England, by the London Philharmonic Society.

Arguably, his greatest symphony.

So, there are two "English" symphonies, then!

[Dundonnell]

Alwyn, German (upon whom the sun seems to have set), Sullivan, Stanford, Arnold and Simpson can all be quite sunny on occasions.

Simpson? Sunny??

I am a huge admirer of Robert Simpson! His eleven symphonies and his string quartets are-in my opinion-major contributions to 20th century music!

But...although there are celestial allusions to be made I am not sure that 'sunny' is a word I would use

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Simpson? Sunny??

I am a huge admirer of Robert Simpson! His eleven symphonies and his string quartets are-in my opinion-major contributions to 20th century music!

But...although there are celestial allusions to be made I am not sure that 'sunny' is a word I would use

Neither would I. Sunny Simpson? Serious and powerful are words that spring to my mind.

[Christo]

Sunny Simpson?

Simpson? Sunny??

According to the anonymous contributor to the Wikipedia entrance on Simpson's String Quartet No. 9 - written in 1982 in response to a request by the Delme String Quartet for a work to mark the dual occasion of the 20th anniversary of their quartet and the 250th anniversary of the birth of Haydn - variations, nos. 26 and 27 (out of the 32) "are sunny and warmly reflective". 

The full article at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._9_(Simpson)

One needs perhaps magnifying sunglasses to detect the sunny side of Simpson, but there it is.