A British Composer Poll

[karlhenning]

Oh, I've cast a pall on the thread . . . .

[knight66]

Karl, That rumour that his sister wrote the works is a fallacy. BTW, did you know that her middle name was Ann?

Mike

[71 dB]

The highlighted part basically says, "since I don't like Vaughan Williams it must be boring, and people who passionately like it must be cretins who are not as smart as me and are unable to deal with music that isn't boring."

You have your interpretation of my text but I didn't mean that. What I meant was that people are different. Some like apples, some like oranges.

[karlhenning]

Karl, That rumour that his sister wrote the works is a fallacy. BTW, did you know that her middle name was Ann?

Mike

Hah!

[Scarpia]

You have your interpretation of my text but I didn't mean that. What I meant was that people are different. Some like apples, some like oranges.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

[71 dB]

Sorry if I misunderstood.

No problem. Someday even I may start enjoying RVW's "neutral" music but for now I am interested about many other things...

[knight66]

What business have you interrupting the absurdity of this thread with relevent material?

Mike

[karlhenning]

Interesting that Britten is out-polling Handel.

[Scarpia]

No problem. Someday even I may start enjoying RVW's "neutral" music but for now I am interested about many other things...

Well, if you think the 6th symphony of VW is "neutral" I'd be afraid to hear music which is not "neutral."

[knight66]

Not sure I would regard Handel as an 'English' composer. So, I would never vote for him in such a poll. He was a composer who worked extensively in England.....was Stravinsky an American composer?

No!

Mike

Edit: I have just looked back to see who construced this poll. Of course!

[mc ukrneal]

Not sure I would regard Handel as an 'English' composer. So, I would never vote for him in such a poll. He was a composer who worked extensively in England.....was Stravinsky an American composer?

No!

Well, technically, after he became a naturalized citizen...

[knight66]

Yes, but it is a technicality really. He was European, he absorbed so many influences. I wonder if in Italy anyone regards him as an Italian composer?....Again, no! He was not born with olive oil in his veins, so that would be an end to that.

How about Menotti: Italian or American...perhaps it depends on whether you are an American and whether you like his music.

Mike

[Sergeant Rock]

Yes, but it is a technicality really. He was European, he absorbed so many influences. I wonder if in Italy anyone regards him as an Italian? composer....again, No! He was not born with olive oil in his veins, so that would be an end to that.

How about Menotti: Italian or American...perhaps it depends on whether you are an American and whether you like his music.

Mike

The Italians can have him 

I think I agree with you...about Handel, about Stravinsky, and any other composer who chose, or was forced to live outside his native land. Stravinsky will always be a Russian composer...not French, not American. On the other hand, certain works of Handel are so quintessentially "English" (Messiah, the Fireworks, the Water Music) I can understand why some would consider him an English composer.

Sarge

[Franco]

On the other hand, certain works of Handel are so quintessentially "English" (Messiah, the Fireworks, the Water Music) I can understand why some would consider him an English composer.

I was wondering if a composer from the 17th century could have much in common with a composer of the 21st century, even if from the same country to constitute a national "school" spanning several centuries? Several pages back (before all that Other business) I asked about George Benjamin, sometimes referred to as the "English Carter" - he is worlds away from Purcell, and yet, he is British.

What is your idea of quintessentially "English" - and has this quality existed unchanged from the time of Handel to today?

[Sergeant Rock]

What is your idea of quintessentially "English" - and has this quality existed unchanged from the time of Handel to today?

My idea of quintessential English music? Simply music that's associated strongly with England    Has there been a continuous "school" or style? No, but a national influence over the centuries is apparent, I think. VW and Tallis, for example.

Sarge

[Scarpia]

I don't see Handel as any more English than Haydn.  He went where the commercial possibilities of his music were greatest.  Early in his life he wrote lots of quintessentially Italian music in Italy, then he wrote Italian music in England, then it became impossible to perform opera so he started writing oratorio.  I don't find any of it terribly English.

For me English musics is synonymous with the early to middle 20th century and is characterized by opulent orchestration, a certain majestic or ceremonial quality, a certain academic quality of writing for strings, salted with some British pastoralism.  Elgar, Walton, Vaughan Williams, Finzi, Howells, etc, not necessarily in that order.  Britten doesn't strike me as being so British.

[knight66]

What do you mean that 'Other business'?

I don't think English....or just possibly British, music can be boxed up in quite the easy way that people claim of the the 'pastoralists' for instance. There has been a strain of lyricism, but English music was not brought about in a vacuum. For instance Britten initially was very influenced by the likes of Ravel. Elgar has more than echos of Wagner and Strauss.

Does Holst's Planets sound English? I would guess Austro/German. Though other of his output does have that supposedly characteristic pastoral strain along with Finzi, Butterworth and some of Vaughn Williams, also Delius. Though again, I don't think of Delius as English. Of German extraction he travelled in the US where he was influenced and lived for years in France. I think his music has a slightly exotic tinge to it, despite the many miniatures that inhabit programmes and discs of 'English' music.

I can't really hear much Handel in subsequent composers, well perhaps Parry, but to my ears he is more like the Mendelssohn of St Paul in his vocal works, dull. Apart from Britten and Tippet I am not aware of any who really used Purcell.

Mention of Tippet...listen to him in isolation....does not sound 'English' to me.

John Tavener, the mystic, which is perhaps a sub strain, but his music is decidedly not English in sound. McMillan, McConachy, Birtwhistle, Aides....I don't see a 'school' there.

No doubt Luke and Elgarian can correct my half digested thoughts. I read in a programme about how heavily one contemporary composer was influenced by Brahms in the piece I was to hear. I could not detect that at all; so there may well be connections and influences that my tin ear cannot pick up on.

Sorry I can't give a sensible answer specifically about George Benjamin. I don't know his music at all.

Mike

[Sergeant Rock]

I don't see Handel as any more English than Haydn.  He went where the commercial possibilities of his music were greatest.  Early in his life he wrote lots of quintessentially Italian music in Italy, then he wrote Italian music in England, then it became impossible to perform opera so he started writing oratorio.  I don't find any of it terribly English

The Messiah has a text from the King James bible. You don't think that sounds English? (Well, he could be an American Baptist fundamentalist composer, too, I suppose    )

Seriously, there is a huge difference between Haydn and Handel. Haydn stayed in England for several months. Handel lived in England for 47 years. He even changed his name from Haendel to Handel.

As I said, though, I still think of him as a German composer but I can understand why he's embraced by some as an English composer.

Sarge

[Scarpia]

The Messiah has a text from the King James bible. You don't think that sounds English? (Well, he could be an American Baptist fundamentalist composer, too, I suppose    )

The words, yes, but I don't hear the music as being particularly English.  Similar to Britten, for me, it is obvious he's English when he's setting one of those extremely English texts.  Liberated from that, he is very cosmopolitan with many influences.

[knight66]

Sarge, You mentioned The Messiah as being quintessentially English. I have a version in German, it sure does not then sound English. Mendelssohn's Elijah in English sounds more English.

Was there something in the UK on which Handel built the style of English oratorio? I thought it was just 'Handel', as you indicated, moving from the Italian style to a non-Italian style with English words....but I did not know it was other than Handel's development of his ideas, and I can't see where an influence in the UK came from.

I know he was in a general sense influenced by the English choral tradition of Tallis and Byrd, but his choral music does not sound like theirs, it is a different beast. His oratorio has nothing of that church liturgical feel to it of those earlier choral writers.

Mike