Bruckner 7th

[Renfield]

I was in two of the concerts in which that was recorded (it must be edited together from several nights, probably all four, because in both concerts that I was in, Friday and Saturday, there were several fairly serious booboos) and didn't find at all that it had "something to say". I was disappointed by the facelessness and lack of musical style of these playthroughs. Haitink had apparently tried to tone down the notorious brass a little, but the result was that is simply sounded thin and pale most of the time, until he allowed them to play louder when they did their best to drown everything else out. That suddenly started in the 3rd movement, maybe that was part of Haitink's "dramatic concept", who knows. Several key passages, like the funeral music for all the horns at the end of the slow movement, simply didn't happen, the horns had some serious intonation problems and there, where "great tone" is really needed, they sounded strangely subdued and thinnish.

"Something to say" is in this case what you describe as this "toning down", faceless or otherwise.

This Haitink is far from being my favourite version, but it came up in my mind when I was looking for different styles of Bruckner 7ths exactly because I found it low-key, but quite aurally attractive. (That is to say, I find it a good - but not great - Bruckner 7th.)

Therefore, it seemingly had an opinion. Possibly not the best one; certainly different from my beloved Karajan/VPO recording. But my point was that the OP could try and see what style of Bruckner 7th he enjoys.


Which reminds me, is the Blomstedt version anywhere in print? In any version?

I've heard about how it was once such a benchmark, but never heard the recording itself, alas.


Edit: Correction and apology is in order, as I just realised I'd put the Haitink under the apparent header "excellent". Mea culpa, I should've made the distinction plainer (I was thinking of the Jochum example).

Original post corrected. Goes to show one can never be too clear about one's syntax - particularly in one's own head.

[M forever]

"Something to say" is in this case what you describe as this "toning down", faceless or otherwise.

This Haitink is far from being my favourite version, but it came up in my mind when I was looking for different styles of Bruckner 7ths exactly because I found it low-key, but quite aurally attractive. (That is to say, I find it a good - but not great - Bruckner 7th.)

Therefore, it seemingly had an opinion. Possibly not the best one; certainly different from my beloved Karajan/VPO recording. But my point was that the OP could try and see what style of Bruckner 7th he enjoys.

There are many drastically better examples for that kind of "low key", as opposed to the more "grandiose" type of Bruckner performance - among them Haitink's two earlier recordings which are orchestrally much better. What the performances I atteneded really lacked was the feeling that the orchestra really shaped phrases, made musical points, spoke with a musical voice rather than just played the the notes. I almost desperatly listened for at least some personality in the wind playing, but apart from the solo flute which did play rather eloquent, there was next to none. The music just doodled along without "saying" anything. Everything was rather unspecific and lacked a defniitive musical "gestalt". I am sure they have edited this together well and made it sound somehow "nice", but musically, what I heard was a complete non-event. I even went again the next day, after all, I was in Chicago only 3 days and didn't have anything better to do, and also I wanted to get another impression. Plus I sat in different places of the hall on the two nights to get a better idea of what the sound is like from various perspectives. But the second night was just as mediocre and uninteresting.
Before the intermission, BTW, the concertmaster of the orchestra played Lutoslawski's Chain II and that was very good, well rehearsed with a lot of fine detail. But when it came to the Bruckner symphony, the orchestra didn't play it as if they even knew the piece well. It sounded very uneasy and conceptless. Most of the notes in the right places, but not much convincing coherence.

Which reminds me, is the Blomstedt version anywhere in print? In any version?

That's a much better example for a very good "low key" performance. Another one is Dohnányi's slender and articulate and musically very nuanced recording with the Cleveland Orchestra.

[Martin Lind]

Riccardo Chailly's with the Radio Symphony Orchestra of Berlin on London/Decca can be had dirt cheap on the used market and it's outstanding in most every respect.

Chailly is not my cup of tea. But I have not many recordings of Bruckners 7th. I have both Jochum recordings of Emi and DGG and the Chailly. And I know Karajan. The Jochum is certainly controversible. Jochums recording is certainly very interesting, accelerandos and ritertandos in a nearly Furtwänglerian way. There are people who hates that. I love it. I love it because for me the whole thing is completely convincing. Chailly on the other hand has very good sound and reasonable tempi but for me it is completely boring alongside the Jochum which is for me the high art of interpretation. I once heard the late Karajan but didn't like that as well. I hope I see the whole thing right, for example I don't know weather the comparison to Furtwängler is really right, I am only an amateur, a music lover, not a musician but the important point is: I like the Jochum and I don't like the Chailly. The Jochum of Emi is now Brilliant and pretty cheap in the complete box of symphonies and I am especially convinced by the 4th, 7th, 8th and 9th.

Regards Martin

[Moldyoldie]

Chailly is not my cup of tea. But I have not many recordings of Bruckners 7th. I have both Jochum recordings of Emi and DGG and the Chailly. And I know Karajan. The Jochum is certainly controversible. Jochums recording is certainly very interesting, accelerandos and ritertandos in a nearly Furtwänglerian way. There are people who hates that. I love it. I love it because for me the whole thing is completely convincing. Chailly on the other hand has very good sound and reasonable tempi but for me it is completely boring alongside the Jochum which is for me the high art of interpretation. I once heard the late Karajan but didn't like that as well. I hope I see the whole thing right, for example I don't know weather the comparison to Furtwängler is really right, I am only an amateur, a music lover, not a musician but the important point is: I like the Jochum and I don't like the Chailly. The Jochum of Emi is now Brilliant and pretty cheap in the complete box of symphonies and I am especially convinced by the 4th, 7th, 8th and 9th.

Regards Martin

If I may be so bold, Jochum makes Bruckner "fun" to listen to with his constant bending and shaping of the composer's architecture; one never knows what to expect next!  I agree that Chailly's Seventh is hardly "inventive" in that regard, but if one seeks a well-grounded, well-played, and well-recorded introduction to this sprawling work (sprawling? Bruckner? naaah!) that weaves finely around well-judged medians and exudes a sense of inevitability, or what seasoned listeners may deem "boring", it certainly fits the bill.

[Renfield]

That's a much better example for a very good "low key" performance. Another one is Dohnányi's slender and articulate and musically very nuanced recording with the Cleveland Orchestra.

I've listened to neither. My 7ths are mostly of the other "cut". Although I do have a Philips Haitink one, somewhere - never listened to it.

Edit: I'd bought the entire cycle to hear the 6th, and then other listening came up, and I didn't explore the set fully.

Maybe that is why an otherwise sub-par Haitink would make an impression on me. As I said (and I'll repeat), it was just the first non-grandiose agreeable Bruckner 7th that came to mind.

Therefore both noted, Blomstedt and Dohnányi: a goof excuse for me to properly explore the concept of the low-key 7th.

[Lilas Pastia]

A "low-key 7th" - or any "low-key Bruckner" is...well, what is it exactly? If I guess right, I'd say it is defined by unforced pacing, natural balances and a refusal to pump up the volume at nodal points. Which doesn't mean it's unexciting or dull. When Bruckner writes mountainously grand vistas for the orchestra to play, it does the music no service to italicize and heat it up to boiling point. Orchestras that have the sound and style in their blood, and conductors that have that insight cannot really produce anything but unforced, natural Bruckner. Or "low-key Bruckner".

Vienna, Leipzig and Dresden and maybe Munich BRSO, and Amsterdam, and conductors like Wand, Böhm and Blomstedt come to mind. Lesser known kapellmeisters like Stein, Leitner, Keilberth, Suitner, Bongartz also produced natural but big, weighty Bruckner.

Of course there is the other kind of maestros who also deliver great Bruckner, but most often it's anything but low key: Furtwängler, Giulini, Karajan, Jochum. The latter in his old age became more 'low key', letting the music unfold with majesty and unforced grandeur, without any need to manipulate tempos and dynamics. His last recordings of the 8th and 9th (Bamberg and Munich PO respectively). ey are his most satisfying interpretations, and among the best ever.

Some conductors try to impose their personality to Bruckner's music, and it generally does not work. Results may be interesting, impressive, even thrillling, but in the end it's not the St-Florian master's work.

[Renfield]

I did not intend "low-key" as a pejorative term, if that was unclear. It was an ad hoc term to distinguish between different "cuts" of Bruckner interpretation, as there seems to be a consensus that they exist: Wand versus Karajan, if you will, to cite more familiar examples (to me).

[Keemun]

Of the recordings I have of this symphony, my favorites are:

Karajan/VPO (DG)
Sanderling/SWR Radio Symphony Orchestra of Stuttgart
Nézet-Séguin/Orchestre Métropolitain du Grand Montréal
Jochum/Staatskapelle Dresden

As for the recent Haitink/CSO recording, I would rank it near the bottom, as I found it incredibly boring.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I don't mean to derail the topic a little but can someone tell me about the cymbal crash and extra percussion in the Adagio? According to here (you have to scoll down to the 7th symphony) it says:

Most noticeably, Haas left out the cymbal crash, triangle roll, and tympani in the Adagio, whereas the other editions include these parts.

Now I am a bit confused. Karajan and Celibidache both uses the Haas edition and they both have the cymbal crash and percussion (don't remember if Karajan has the triangle or not), and Wand and Harnoncourt also use the Haas and neither has the cymbal crash.

[Lethevich]

I don't mean to derail the topic a little but can someone tell me about the cymbal crash and extra percussion in the Adagio? According to here (you have to scoll down to the 7th symphony) it says:

Most noticeably, Haas left out the cymbal crash, triangle roll, and tympani in the Adagio, whereas the other editions include these parts.

Now I am a bit confused. Karajan and Celibidache both uses the Haas edition and they both have the cymbal crash and percussion (don't remember if Karajan has the triangle or not), and Wand and Harnoncourt also use the Haas and neither has the cymbal crash.

I assume Karajan just thought it sounded better with that added - he makes a few similar tweaks in other works, such as raising the string entry before the main theme of the 4th (EMI/BP) by an octave*.

*I am too musically inept to know how to describe this myself, but I think it was Lilas who said that is the term to describe it when I initially asked.

[Renfield]

I think I'll give the two Haitinks I have a back-to-back spin and see what comes of it... Ditto for the Jochums, as I've practically never sat down to listen to the later version carefully; strangely, Karajan's recordings seem to give me all I seek, in Bruckner's 7th.

(And I say "strangely" because I'm usually loathe to listen to only one or two recordings of a given work on a constant basis.)

[rw1883]

I assume Karajan just thought it sounded better with that added - he makes a few similar tweaks in other works, such as raising the string entry before the main theme of the 4th (EMI/BP) by an octave*.

*I am too musically inept to know how to describe this myself, but I think it was Lilas who said that is the term to describe it when I initially asked.

If I'm thinking about the same place you're thinking about...the first violins (divided) are playing E-flat (octave apart) and Karajan has them slide (portamento) up a fifth to B-flat (still divided and an octave apart)...I look forward to that part every time I listen to that recording!!!

[Lilas Pastia]

It is a slide up, but I can't tell by what interval, so thank you ! But I have to say I don't care much for that bit of touching up. It makes me wince every time .

As for the cymbal crash, all Nowak men make it, whereas most Haas practitioners usually stick by the score (Haas') and leave it out. Karajan also makes a small emendation to the harp part in the 8th symphony, following the big climax of the Adagio. When it was issued by DG, Gramophone described the change in some detail - although it's probably unnoticeable to any but score followers. It's not unusual to hear small differences from one edition to another. The coda to IV in the 'Romantic' also has differences in the brass parts - one of them brings the main theme of I forward IIRC. These changes are not necessarily very significant, because the conductor can always balance them differently. I've heard Nowak 7ths where the cymbal and timpani are so ineffectual as to be absent altogether - like a host furtively sweeping dirt under the carpet as company enters.

[eyeresist]

It is a slide up, but I can't tell by what interval, so thank you ! But I have to say I don't care much for that bit of touching up. It makes me wince every time .

... The coda to IV in the 'Romantic' also has differences in the brass parts - one of them brings the main theme of I forward IIRC. These changes are not necessarily very significant, because the conductor can always balance them differently.

The "Karajan slide" is interesting, and I think he gets away with it, but perhaps it doesn't do for every day! That portamento seems quite an old-school touch for a conductor I usually categorise as fairly objective - certainly in his Bruckner.

I think the Nowak edition of the 4th has the opening horn call return in the finale. It's how I first heard this symphony, and the Haas ending has always seemed a bit plain beside it. It creates a nice sense of completing the musical circle.

[M forever]

I assume Karajan just thought it sounded better with that added - he makes a few similar tweaks in other works, such as raising the string entry before the main theme of the 4th (EMI/BP) by an octave*.

That is from an earlier edition of the 4th symphony (don't remember exactly which one it is), not something Karajan came up with himself. I don't think I can think of a single example of him randomly adding a cymbal crash here or another "adornment" there just because he thought it sounded better somehow. Apart from the lower octave doubling of the basses in some places which however is not just a Karajan thing as such.

[Lethevich]

That is from an earlier edition of the 4th symphony (don't remember exactly which one it is), not something Karajan came up with himself. I don't think I can think of a single example of him randomly adding a cymbal crash here or another "adornment" there just because he thought it sounded better somehow. Apart from the lower octave doubling of the basses in some places which however is not just a Karajan thing as such.

Thank you for the correction - that does make more sense

[PerfectWagnerite]

Here's a pretty good video showing E. Jochum conducting the Concertgebouw just a couple of months before he died in the Adagio from the 7th, cymbal clash and extra percussions and all. Very moving performance.

[Renfield]

Here's a pretty good video showing E. Jochum conducting the Concertgebouw just a couple of months before he died in the Adagio from the 7th, cymbal clash and extra percussions and all. Very moving performance.

Nice find.

[Lilas Pastia]

Very moving indeed. The aged Jochum conducts seated in a red velour chair, and rises to his feet as the climax nears. He's obviously very emotionally engaged in the music.

[M forever]

I heard them play that in Berlin during the same tour. That was in 1986, I think. In the first half, they played Vorspiel und Liebestod from Tristan und Isolde. Unfortunately, the only time I saw Jochum in concert. But it was fantastic, I have very good memories of this concert to this day.