Elliott Carter, 1908-2012

[Joe Barron]

I think there is a precedent for Wind Rose in Carter's output, and that's the Eight Etudes and a Fantasy for Woodwind Quartet (1950), especially Etude VII, which is a study on one note, with an emphasis on "color and dynamic shapes," in Schiff's words. Wind Rose isn't an exact reproduction, but it does have some of the same feel. Mark talks about sonorities and chord voicings, and those are exactly the concerns of the Etudes.

On first two hearings, though, it reminded me of Ligeti's Atmospheres. I could piicture Dave Bowman's little pod passing through the star gate.

An attractive little piece. May it and all new Carter works be recorded soon, so that sins may be forgiven. 

[not edward]

I think there is a precedent for Wind Rose in Carter's output, and that's the Eight Etudes and a Fantasy for Woodwind Quartet (1950), especially Etude VII, which is a study on one note, with an emphasis on "color and dynamic shapes," in Schiff's words.

Very good point. I'd forgotten about that work as I've not listened to it for a long time. I guess I'll have to give it a whirl again.

What's more shocking is that Knussen apparently commissioned and encouraged Carter to write something like this??? again, i dont like any of it..I recently heard Interventions for piano & orchestra and that was better then any of these works, unmistakably Carter....still, I look forward to hearing the Clarinet Quintet & Flute Concerto  ...

I'm guessing Knussen liked Sound Fields. However, I'm certainly wanting to hear Interventions and the other two works; even if I don't think Carter's work is at the same consistently high standard that it was at his peak, much of what he writes I still find illuminating.

[Joe Barron]

even if I don't think Carter's work is at the same consistently high standard that it was at his peak, much of what he writes I still find illuminating.

Some are. Some aren't. I think the Cello and Boston concertos, both from his 90s,  are as good as anything he's written, and the Oboe Quartet and Piano Quintet are major works, to my mind. (Or is this what ou meant by "consistently" high?) Much else seems small, true, but maybe the smallness and the intimacy are the point.

The notes to Oppens recording of the piano music make an illuminating comparison to the pianio music of Brahms, who, like Carter, wrote big sonatas early in his career, turned to the extanded variation form in the middle (rather analogous to the free-form Night Fantasies), and ended with a series of small, short pieces. I don't know if Brahms's late pianio music is as "great" as his bigger, earlier work, but I prefer it.

Just listened again to the BBC broadcast of the Mad Regales, which no one else has mentioned yet. Beautiful settings, in their way the equal of the early Dickinson pieces for chorus, which were also only four to five minutes each. The sustained, high chords in "At North Farm" i,pressed me particularly.

[not edward]

I guess I think of Carter's peak as being the '50s and '60s: the first two quartets, the three concerti from the '60s and the Variations for Orchestra...which, at least for me, is a distinctly elevated standard to compare against.

Mad-Regales I need to hear again, and preferably in better sound than webcast quality. I know I didn't get all I could from it on one listen.

[UB]

I can remember getting into all kinds of trouble on an about 10 years ago when I suggested on another board that his Symphonia was all surface glitter with no depth. After listening to it just now, I still hear it that way. To me Carter has written so much music that he can basically do it in his sleep and no matter what the quality it will get played by major orchestras.

I think Copland got it right. He reached a point where he decided that he had nothing new to say and no new way to say what had been said before so he just stopped composing.

[karlhenning]

again, i dont like any of it...

And again . . . and again . . . and again . . . and again . . . and again . . . and again . . . and again . . . and again . . . and again . . . and again . . . and again . . . and again . . . and again . . . and again . . . and again . . . .

[Joe Barron]

Mad-Regales I need to hear again, and preferably in better sound than webcast quality. I know I didn't get all I could from it on one listen.

It also helps to follow the words, which I still have in the Tanglewood program.

I can remember getting into all kinds of trouble on an about 10 years ago when I suggested on another board that his Symphonia was all surface glitter with no depth. After listening to it just now, I still hear it that way. To me Carter has written so much music that he can basically do it in his sleep and no matter what the quality it will get played by major orchestras.

I think Copland got it right. He reached a point where he decided that he had nothing new to say and no new way to say what had been said before so he just stopped composing.

To reiterate: Some of Mr. Carter's recent music is as good as it gets. I certainly can't say I wish he would follow Copland's example. And I don't remember you getting into all kinds of trouble. (Nor was it ten years ago. I've been posting online for less than eight.) I do remember disagreeing with you about Carter's "surface glitter." As I recall, I stated that metrical modulation and such gave the surface of Carter's music a fluidity that I found more attractive than the regular, lockstep rhythms of someone like Sessions, and you took that to mean a lack of depth. I can't think of the "Adagio tenebroso" as superficial, and I think it says a lot that the "Allegro scorrevole" is pretty: that's an achievement, especially for a modernist whose music has been called thorny (even recently on the BBC), astringent and cerebral. As I've said, Mr. Carter can't win: the music isn't pretty enough for Eric, and it's too pretty for UB.

[karlhenning]

I haven't yet sought out Sessions's music, but it's no good dismissing Carter for failing to be like Sessions, any more than for failing to be like Ligeti's.

. . . I can't think of the "Adagio tenebroso" as superficial, and I think it says a lot that the "Allegro scorrevole" is pretty: that's an achievement, especially for a modernist whose music has been called thorny (even recently on the BBC), astringent and cerebral.

Hear, hear.

[Joe Barron]

I haven't yet sought out Sessions's music, but it's no good dismissing Carter for failing to be like Sessions, any more than for failing to be like Ligeti's.

Conversely, I wasn't dimissing Sessions, whose music I like. It's just that I find Carter's music more attractive. I also find it more dramatic than Babbitt's, whose music I also like. If attractiveness and drama are evidence of superficiality, then so be it.

[Mark G. Simon]

The thing about Copland was that he had Alzheimer's. In his later years he had trouble remembering where he lived, never mind how to put a piece of music together. He himself described his decision to stop composing as "it was as if a faucet had turned off". I see no reason not to applaud Carter for having his marbles intact even into his second century and to continue using his faculties to keep turning out new works. I'm sure that composing every day is what has allowed him to live as long as he has. And if a few of these works are up to the standards of his greatest works, then the effort is fully worthwhile for all of us.

[Joe Barron]

The thing about Copland was that he had Alzheimer's. In his later years he had trouble remembering where he lived, never mind how to put a piece of music together. He himself described his decision to stop composing as "it was as if a faucet had turned off". I see no reason not to applaud Carter for having his marbles intact even into his second century and to continue using his faculties to keep turning out new works. I'm sure that composing every day is what has allowed him to live as long as he has. And if a few of these works are up to the standards of his greatest works, then the effort is fully worthwhile for all of us.

To quote the great Karl Henning, hear hear.

And again, I like Wind Rose. 

[Joe Barron]

Oh, the book of letters and documents is back at Amazon, and it's pretty darn cheap. Anyone who cares at all about Carter should have this book. It's packed with photos and information.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Guido,

The phrase means that Carter's music is formidable in its complexity.

Actually, mine was more a rhetorical question.... And 'formidable complexity' in reference to music gets pretty trite. (Or perhaps it's just me getting tired of Tommassini's style)

I'm guessing that the phrase irks you because you would reserve it for only three pieces by a certain composer.

Are you kidding me ?  My adoration of certain of Debussy's works has  nothing  to do with whether I or others perceive it as 'complex'. As a matter of fact those favorite works of mine are not really complex.

(And for the record, my tastes range very wide, from Machaut to Richard Strauss to Messiaen to 1980's pop music)

[Homo Aestheticus]

Joe, Bill, Mark, Edward and others,

A review from the  Telegraph:

This concert, devoted entirely to the music of Elliott Carter, was not good news from the box-office point of view, but the BBC Symphony Orchestra would have been remiss not to acknowledge a composer who continues to expound bold ideas and to challenge any notion that at the age of 100 he has any thoughts of calling it a day...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturecritics/geoffreynorris/3812323/BBC-Symphony-Orchestra-with-Oliver-Knussen-at-the-Barbican---review.html

[karlhenning]

Oh, the book of letters and documents is back at Amazon, and it's pretty darn cheap. Anyone who cares at all about Carter should have this book. It's packed with photos and information.

Excellent news, Joe!

[karlhenning]

My adoration of certain of Debussy's works has  nothing  to do with whether I or others perceive it as 'complex'. As a matter of fact those favorite works of mine are not really complex.

Eric, we've got to say this, even though it will crush you.

This thread isn't yet another thread about you.  It's about Elliott Carter's music.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Eric, we've got to say this, even though it will crush you.

This thread isn't yet another thread about you.  It's about Elliott Carter's music.

Excuse me but I would never have brought this up had Guido not addressed this in the first place.

And didn't you notice that my post was followed by a Carter review ?

What is your problem ?

[Guido]

Are you kidding me ?  My adoration of certain of Debussy's works has  nothing  to do with whether I or others perceive it as 'complex'. As a matter of fact those favorite works of mine are not really complex.

I apologise unreservedly. 

[Homo Aestheticus]

Joe,

(Your message from last night is gone)

First, I think you know that the music of Carter does not speak to me in any way, however his life story as a centenarian composer and the ongoing assessment by the musical public  does fascinate me. I will stop posting the links if it annoys you that much.

Second, when and where have you seen any troll-like behavior lately in this thread or forum ?

I am neither seeking validation nor being 'nice'.

Bws

[Homo Aestheticus]

I apologise unreservedly. 

No need to apologize Guido.