The one recording you think everyone should bin

[Greta]

Isn't that a great disc? I don't know much about the Cleveland Symphonic Winds but wow ! I certainly prefer that to the water-downed HIP Handel out there.

Oh my, is it. Fantastically played and recorded. The balance between the sections is perfection, and a friend of mine who is a sound engineer used the SACD of that to balance his system when he moved.

Frederick Fennell was a wind band god, and his Cleveland recordings are among my great treasures. Hey it's the Cleveland Orchestra's winds, what would you expect?

You absolutely can't go wrong with the SACD, which includes the most stunning Lincolnshire Posy by Percy Grainger...

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=7938

[Sergeant Rock]

Gramophone apparently loves it. So much so they recommend it in the Good CD Guide. They write:

It is brilliantly played, with 12 trumpets coming up gleaming in the final climax. An enticing proposition !

Well, of course Gramophone would love it    Okay then, into the bin it goes.

Sarge

[PerfectWagnerite]

Well, of course Gramophone would love it    Okay then, into the bin it goes.

Sarge

I guess EMI is in bed with Gramophone because they love it enough to put it as part of the GROC series, which means they think it deserving of such recognition as Karajan's Meistersinger or Furtwangler's Tristan.

[karlhenning]

I'm sorry Sir Simon but...


And especially bad considering his CBSO recording was so good:

Yes, this one is delightful.

[Greta]

Gramophone apparently loves it. So much so they recommend it in the Good CD Guide. They write:

It is brilliantly played, with 12 trumpets coming up gleaming in the final climax. An enticing proposition !

Yes, Gramophone loved Rattle's BPO Planets too..they're usually more than happy to lick his feet. And I personally like him and his conducting, his good stuff is great, so that makes the bad even more hard to fathom.

This is absolutely classic from the Gramophone forum, a long thread about that release and their partialness:

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/mainforum.asp?messagesectionID=53&messageID=49318

[SimonGodders]

I guess EMI is in bed with Gramophone because they love it enough to put it as part of the GROC series, which means they think it deserving of such recognition as Karajan's Meistersinger or Furtwangler's Tristan.

Perhaps the fault of EMI in using the word 'Great' in the first place. An overused word IMO. I'ld have called the series RGROC - Really Good Recordings of the Century ( ). Admittedly not as catchy, but true!

[karlhenning]

Anyway, that whole series is about to give place to BROM (Bitchinest Recordings of the Millennium) 

[canninator]

In that case these 3 men do not know what they are talking about:

"There have certainly been many wonderful recordings of the popular short orchestral pieces of Ralph Vaughan Williams...For someone coming to these pieces for the first time, though, this issue deserves real consideration...played here by one of the top orchestras Down Under, the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra led by British conductor James Judd, whose recordings with this orchestra and the Florida Philharmonic have made his name familiar to discerning record collectors...This issue deserves real praise. Even though this is a budget CD the performances are comparable to the top echelon of full-price releases, and are better than many of them. You can't go wrong here. The playing is nuanced, the sound is crystal clear. The wide dynamic range makes it possible to hear the utterly soft playing called for in, say, the Tallis Fantasia as well as the full climaxes in that and the other pieces. Recommended."

- Scott Morrison, Amazon.com, August 2003

"From Gershwin, Copland, and Bernstein, James Judd steers his New Zealand Symphony across the Atlantic towards two of their less glitzy contemporary's most popular bon-bons. Vaughan William's less well-known but atmospheric Norfolk Rhapsody No. 1, plus his tone poem In The Fen Country and five-movement Concerto Grosso are thrown in as much more than makeweight material alongside the almost too familiar Greensleeves and the shimmering Tallis Fantasia. The peripatetic James Judd, recently at the Barbican, seems to be making good down under, these are bargain-price performances to rival any on the market."

- Anthony Holden, The Observer, 6/22/03

"Helped by vivid sound, James Judd conducts the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra in glowing performances of these favourite [sic] Vaughan Williams works. There have been a number of discs from this orchestra in recent years, but here Judd shows what quality of player the orchestra now attracts, especially in its ripely resonant string tone. The whole is nicely balanced in a warm but clear acoustic. There is good solo work, too, from the leading string players as well as the woodwind and brass soloists."

- Edward Greenfield, Gramophone, August 2003

I'm with Hurwitz on this one

Naxos has made some very fine recordings in New Zealand, and some not so fine. Unfortunately this new release falls into the latter category. James Judd leads a frankly weird performance of the stunningly beautiful Tallis Fantasia. The second string orchestra sounds miles away when contrasted to the main body, making their exchanges excessively disjointed, but when interacting with the solo quartet the smaller group suddenly pops up loudly front and center. And the soloists are far too close; the violist's breathing is quite audible. Interpretively, the problems start right at the beginning: Judd's "largo sostenuto" is certainly slow, but hardly well sustained. He plods through the introduction and initial statement of Tallis' theme, and then practically double-times the fortissimo counterstatement--a needlessly cheap tactic. "Appassionato" does not mean "play it faster."

Judd's attention to dynamics is also extremely haphazard--in particular he's consistently too loud in passages calling for the full string orchestra (possibly also a fault of the engineering), and he starts the run-up to the big climax so forcefully he has nowhere to build. When the climax arrives ("Largamente", says the composer), instead of broadening the tempo Judd starts accelerating, a curious move particularly as he ignores the preceding "animato" indication entirely. In other words, he's slow when he should be quick, and quick when he should be slow. There's nothing wrong with tempo flexibility for dramatic effect, and the score allows plenty of freedom in this arena, but Judd's decisions practically amount to a misrepresentation of the shape of the piece. The last couple of minutes especially feature an almost random assortment of gratuitous tempo adjustments, none of them possessing any basis in the written text, or more to the point, clear expressive purpose. Of course, the music itself is so gorgeous that anyone who doesn't know the work might not notice anything wrong, but fans of the composer and of this piece will likely disapprove.

Anyway, it's always possible to find some reviewers who like a recorded piece and some who do not, it's all a matter of personal opinion. I'm just blessed that my opinion is always right

[canninator]

Of course I utterly, utterly disagree with you. Barenboim's old school, romantic Beethoven played by one of the greatest orchestras in the world today was such a breath of fresh air after decades of HIP and HIP-influenced Beethoven interpretations. As for Barbirolli's Mahler: sublime stuff.

Sarge

I don't think Barbirolli's Mahler comes off until the Adagio (famously recorded first and at night) but I've lost interest by then. I'm not really a great fan of Bruno Walter but I love the original 1938 recording, full of mystery and shadow.

[Tsaraslondon]

Don't know about the others But as far as Giulini's Don is concerned, I say bin it for Schwarzkopf alone. She sings a good Marschallin and Ariadne but she has not a snowball chance in hell chance of singing Mozart. It is grotesque. I bought that recording 10 years ago because ALL the magazines say it is THE Don to buy, boy did I regret it.

And all I can say is that Schwarzkopf was one of the greatest Mozart singers of her day. I'd rather listen to her Elvira, than almost any other soprano, or mezzo, I know. Her portrayal on the Furtwangler recording from Salzburg is markedly different, apparently to accomodate the very different qualities of the respective Annas (Grummer for Furtwangler and Sutherland for Giulini), and create a better ensemble. I don't know of any other soprano with the intelligence to even consider such a thing.

Oh, and lest you think that I am just following the Brit and Gramophone point of view, let me quote the the American critic London Green in The Metropolitan Opera Guide to Recorded Opera :

Elisabeth Schwarzkopf is a classic Elvira, outraged and loving, grand and a little absurd all at once. She is brilliant in the recitatives and vivid, exact, and inimitable in the music.

Perhaps the fact that his first name is London, helped him to appreciate the subtleties of this great performance.

[knight66]

What fun this thread is.....slaughtering some very sacred cows. I am tempted to suggest that some people sit on their taste, but I would never hint it.

The Barbirolli Mahler 9 is my touchstone recording, the first movement usually feels like an entire angst ridden feast all on its own. The Giulini Mozart has not been admired for so long just because of Gramophone; but performance styles change and although I do like the set, I prefer a more bitingly dramatic approach. Schwartzkopf not a Mozart singer? A leg pull surely. Beethoven 5th from Kleiber.....another top choice trashed.

There are others to defend, but I say let the bloodletting continue.

The Boulez Parsifal; if I still had it, I would take pleasure in sending it off to Room 101. Far too fast and lacking in mystery, also it has the jolly, screeching, wobbling input of Dame G Jones. I wonder if she is the reason the Bernstein Rosenkavalier has been out of circulation for so very long?

Mike

[71 dB]

Anyway, it's always possible to find some reviewers who like a recorded piece and some who do not, it's all a matter of personal opinion. I'm just blessed that my opinion is always right

Exactly! So, what is the point of this thread if we all have to make our OWN opinion about what belongs to the bin?

[knight66]

Exactly! So, what is the point of this thread if we all have to make our OWN opinion about what belongs to the bin?

That is the exact point of it.

Mike

[AnthonyAthletic]

On first reading, I thought this thread was a 'best of' 

So much for taste

So much good stuff going in the bin from you guys, don't bin 'em send 'em to Lancashire 

[knight66]

Tony, I bet you have most of what is being shucked off here!

Mike

[karlhenning]

That is the exact point of it.

Mike! You freewheeling freethinker, you!

[knight66]

It must be catching.

Mike

[AnthonyAthletic]

Tony, I bet you have most of what is being shucked off here!

Mike

Quite a few, and proud of them 

Perlman/Ashkenazy as Fluff in Beethoven, the Forum gets funnier by the moment!!

Paul, Paul there's no finer LvB 7th than Kleiber and IMO only Szell's live 5th comes close

I love opinions, but no need for Pistols at Dawn 

Now, can anyone beat the most awful recording of all time...Mahler 5, Rozhdestvensky on Rusky Revelation....and yes, I kept that as well 

[karlhenning]

Now, can anyone beat the most awful recording of all time...Mahler 5, Rozhdestvensky on Rusky Revelation....and yes, I kept that as well 

For the Mother-in-Law, no doubt! 

[Que]

Good grief, but I suppose it had to happen...

...somebody with no idea of what puts a set of recordings aside as truly 'Great' and what does not.

Sod consensus, whassat?

Step forward Que, as in: 'Haven't a...'

Do, please, tell us what on this planet is better than, for example, the Klemperer/Ludwig/Vickers/Berry/EMI 'Fidelio.' Or hasn't it happened yet?

Yours,

        Truly Puzzled.

Maybe you are puzzled but I mentioned two recordings.
FYI there was a Fidelio thread on the old GMG and a lot of favourites were mentioned other than the Klemperer.

Step forward Que, as in: 'Haven't a...'

Yes, I have and know my own preferences, thank you very much.

Yours too  ,

Q

How some people love to be controversial - "anything recommended by Gramophone", Kleiber's Beethoven 5 & 7, Giulini's Don Giovanni, Klemperer's Fidelio, that sort of thing. Why! I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned the Callas/Da Sabata Tosca, though now that I've brought it up, I'm sure someone will. I would emphatically disagree, by the way. Nor would I want to bin any of the aforementioned recordings, though I might not always think they are the best around, but that's a different argument.

Tsaras, it is not my objective to be controversial but it is the whole point of this thread to mention "famous" recordings that disappointed. And that is the interesting thing about it. I could mention some obscure ones if you like? (Or all the "famous" recordings I do like - which would be a by far greater number.)
And why mention Giulini's Don and Klemperer's Fidelio? Because I found them disappointing, that's why.

I like the Callas/De Sabata Tosca btw...

I also like/adore Klemperer's Brahms, mentioned by others as dissapointing - see me getting upset over it?

Q