Bach on the piano

[DavidRoss]

Well I finally heard Dinnerstein's GV and I'm floored!

Does that mean you're surprised to like it? Or surprised that such dreck received so much favorable attention?

(I liked it much more than expected but it's not a disc I reach for often.)

[Leo K.]

Does that mean you're surprised to like it? Or surprised that such dreck received so much favorable attention?

(I liked it much more than expected but it's not a disc I reach for often.)

I thought i might like it because i really enjoyed her newest release with the Bach Partitas, but her GV was fantastic, an amazing recording.

[Wakefield]

There are many examples of Bach transcribing from string- and wind instruments to keyboard instruments, but if anybody can mention an authentic example of the opposite (transcription from keyboard instrument to string or wind instrument) I would be glad to know.

Well, this demonstrates that Bach was first and foremost a keyboardist by nature, so his natural tendency was transcribe music composed for other instruments (by him or not) to keyboard music, his natural idiom, and not the other way.

[Scarpia]

In that catagory of Bach transcribing from keyboard there is BWV1044, Concerto for flute, violin and harpsichord with string orchestra and continuo.  Outer movements were transcribed from a prelude and fugue for solo harpsichord (BWV894) and the central movement was transcribed from the organ sonata in d-minor (BWV527).

[Opus106]

In that catagory of Bach transcribing from keyboard there is BWV1044, Concerto for flute, violin and harpsichord with string orchestra and continuo.  Outer movements were transcribed from a prelude and fugue for solo harpsichord (BWV894) and the central movement was transcribed from the organ sonata in d-minor (BWV527).

Does that fit with the chronology, however? Please correct me if I'm wrong, the concerto was pre-Leipzig while the set of trio sonatas came later. Although there might have been an overlap between the concerto and the P&F.

[Scarpia]

Does that fit with the chronology, however? Please correct me if I'm wrong, the concerto was pre-Leipzig while the set of trio sonatas came later. Although there might have been an overlap between the concerto and the P&F.

This reference indicated 1738-40 for the composition of BWV1044

http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_Flute,_Violin_and_Harpsichord_in_A_minor,_BWV_1044_%28Bach,_Johann_Sebastian%29

[Opus106]

This reference indicated 1738-40 for the composition of BWV1044

http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_Flute,_Violin_and_Harpsichord_in_A_minor,_BWV_1044_%28Bach,_Johann_Sebastian%29

Thanks. I'm not able to find a definite date on this too. I assumed that all of Bach's extant concerti (or transcriptions thereof) were from an earlier period (Köthen).

[prémont]

In that catagory of Bach transcribing from keyboard there is BWV1044, Concerto for flute, violin and harpsichord with string orchestra and continuo.  Outer movements were transcribed from a prelude and fugue for solo harpsichord (BWV894) and the central movement was transcribed from the organ sonata in d-minor (BWV527).

The harpsichord prelude and fugue in question is not transcribed for flute, violin and strings in the strictest sense, since the original harpsichord part was left almost unchanged (well expanded a bit). The flute and violin parts as well as the string ensemble parts are newly composed, added parts. And it is almost certain that the organ sonata was transcribed from a triosonata for two melody instruments and continuo (or a "trio" for melody instrument and harpsichord obligato like the six sonatas for violin and harpsichord), the slow movement of which constituted the model for the second movement of the concerto. 

[Leo K.]

What is the consensus of Tureck's Goldberg recordings. After the experience of her DG account I wonder what to get next.

And I'm wondering about her Partitas too, which one to get? At least to start since I'll get 'em all eventually

[Scarpia]

I've been listening to some of Rubsam's recordings of Bach Partitas and Suites (on Naxos).  Very much worth hearing.  Generally I prefer performances that emphasize the origin of the music in dance (rhythmically precise and lively) but Rubsam takes a different approach, freely playing with rhythm to draw attention to moments of melodic or harmonic interest.  Sometimes it resonates with me and sometimes it doesn't but it enables me to hear different things in the music, which is all good.  The prelude from the first partita and the allemande from the second were particularly enlightening.

[Mandryka]

I've been listening to some of Rubsam's recordings of Bach Partitas and Suites (on Naxos).  Very much worth hearing.  Generally I prefer performances that emphasize the origin of the music in dance (rhythmically precise and lively) but Rubsam takes a different approach, freely playing with rhythm to draw attention to moments of melodic or harmonic interest.  Sometimes it resonates with me and sometimes it doesn't but it enables me to hear different things in the music, which is all good.  The prelude from the first partita and the allemande from the second were particularly enlightening.

Tell me what you think of the slow movements of the 4th when you get time to listen. I'll listen again to the second. I like the 6th too.

I like all his Bach, despite or because of it's romanticism.  The WTC especially.

[Mandryka]

What is the consensus of Tureck's Goldberg recordings. After the experience of her DG account I wonder what to get next.

And I'm wondering about her Partitas too, which one to get? At least to start since I'll get 'em all eventually

I like the Partitas record on Great Pianists, and the Goldbergs there too, and the four dueti. The other disc I like is on VAI and it's called something like "The Visionary". Oh I used to play the Partitas on Doremi a lot and thought they were excellent --but since  I got the Great Pianists I never bother with the Doremi because the sound is so much better. I would say that the Great Pianist records sound quite different from the later recordings.

Generally IMO the earlier the better with her.

[Scarpia]

I like all his Bach, despite or because of it's romanticism.  The WTC especially.

I'm not aware of a WTC by Rubsam, what label is it on?.   Naxos assigned the WTC to Jando.

I'm not sure I'd characterize Rubsam's Bach as Romantic, just free rather than strict, and striving for way to make use of the capabilities of modern instruments. 

[Mandryka]

I'm not aware of a WTC by Rubsam, what label is it on?.   Naxos assigned the WTC to Jando.

I'm not sure I'd characterize Rubsam's Bach as Romantic, just free rather than strict, and striving for way to make use of the capabilities of modern instruments.

There's a selection of WTC on Naxos, from Book 1. Sorry I can't paste links with this ipad.

I know it's contentious to say that his style is romantic. Rubato is a trait of romanticism.

[Scarpia]

I know it's contentious to say that his style is romantic. Rubato is a trait of romanticism.

For what it's worth, The booklet for the first set of Partitas has an essay by Rubsam himself in which he describes the recording as a document of his project to develop a modern performance style for Bach's music.   He criticizes "romantic" interpretations as antithetical to the music. 

As far as rubato, I don't recall noticing Rubsam employing it.  He indulges in pauses, or varies the tempo, sometimes slowing down as a significant moment is reached, but it seems to be similar to the flexibility of tempo that occurs in many performances on harpsichord.  I didn't notice much romantic "rubato," in which one part of the phrase slows down, resulting in another part of the phrase rushing to catch up to the beat (or vice versa).

[Mandryka]

Yes, you're right to distinguish rubato and agogics like that, but I think that hesitation was part of the romantic style -- listen for example to Cortot's 1948 performance of his arrangement of the adagio from Bach's BWV 1046

http://www.youtube.com/v/XWh3sJdQSbU

What Rubsam says in the booklet to the first set of recordings of Partitas seems to me sufficiently complicated and interesting to cut and paste here:

This recording was produced to communicate, stimulate and encourage the interpretation of Bach's keyboard works on the modern piano. It is based upon recognized fundamental elements of performance practices of early music.

The interpretation of Bach's music on the modern piano remains a confusing issue in light of the fact that the instrument basically evolved with the romantic period. It is, therefore, no surprise that attempts frequently result in romantic readings, a direction which can be most musical at times but may be stylistically confusing if not actually foreign to the score. Musical preferences also favor a clean, mathematical and metronomic realization - a safe but somewhat noncommittal solution to the communication of Bach's artistry.

On a different level, then, is the enjoyment of incorporating the often neglected elements of rhetoric, enegalité, the structures of the strong and weak within a given pulse and meter, and the fingering techniques of the time (shifting and sequential fingerings rather than consecutive scale fingerings). These components, which are strongly interrelated and directly influence choices of articulation and flexibility of rhythm, often answer automatically questions of style, especially when they are understood as basic elements of the musical language.

The complex subject of ornamentation, both Bach's written out ornaments and the liberty given in repeats of movements, is most challenging and rewarding when there is the concept of freedom of execution and the manner is improvisational and imaginative.

Dynamic shadings within figurations, motivic material, and entire musical lines in any part of the polyphonic structure become particularly exciting and meaningful upon melodic (and harmonic) analysis. Important pitches, in the greater sense of the direction, can be pointed out by dynamic control and nuance and by the effect of rhythmic flexibility within the structure of the melodic line. The degree of such bending in time is most personal and strongly communicative when applied with balance and refinement of taste.

The process of merging the "old" and the "new" in Bach's keyboard works will be an ongoing pursuit for me as it will most likely be for the pianists with an interest in early music who strive for reorganization of the ear before fingers are expected to reflect such inner feelings. Since such musical detail is best demonstrated by the music itself, it is my hope that this recording will be a helpful example in this process and that listeners and students alike will find it an enjoyable means of communication.

What interests me is to try and say exactly what the similarities and differences are between his style and Romantic style -- it strikes me that there's enough overlap to help really clarify what's involved in period performance ideas today. Shared elements between Wolfgang Rübsam piano style  and full fledged romantics like Cortot are rhythmic freedom and lingering tempos and an emphasis on beauty of  tone -- but they're relatively superficial IMO. More importantly it's his confidentiality that I hear as romantic -- his style is so intimate and expressive, you feel as though he's confiding a private secret to you. In the allemande in the 4th and the 6th, for example, I feel he's almost spilling his heart out. And what could be more romantic than that!

[Opus106]

What is the meaning of "enegalité"? (Almost every reference in Google leads back to the notes by Rübsam.) Is it, by chance, inegalité, meaning inequality in French, with a typo? If so, to what does it refer?

[pbarach]

Inegalite refers to performing a string of notes notated with the same rhythmic value as if they were notated with different rhythmic values.

[Opus106]

Inegalite refers to performing a string of notes notated with the same rhythmic value as if they were notated with different rhythmic values.

Thank you.

[Scarpia]

What interests me is to try and say exactly what the similarities and differences are between his style and Romantic style -- it strikes me that there's enough overlap to help really clarify what's involved in period performance ideas today. Shared elements between Wolfgang Rübsam piano style  and full fledged romantics like Cortot are rhythmic freedom and lingering tempos and an emphasis on beauty of  tone -- but they're relatively superficial IMO. More importantly it's his confidentiality that I hear as romantic -- his style is so intimate and expressive, you feel as though he's confiding a private secret to you. In the allemande in the 4th and the 6th, for example, I feel he's almost spilling his heart out. And what could be more romantic than that!

We don't have any recordings of Bach playing, so we will never know, but I think people in those days were very aware of the expressive capability of music  I don't think there is any incompatibility between intimacy or expressiveness and baroque performance practice.  What, to my minding, is romantic piano music is the overwrought, histrionic style of a stereotypical piece by Liszt.   I associate that with performances of Busoni transcriptions.  I listen to that stuff too, sometimes,  but I don't feel that it gets as close to the essence of Bach's music.