A good piece of music that I enjoy..
Only I only have Perlman/Barenboim - I want one other recording. What should I get?
Only 1? Shame!
Get Heifetz and Milstein.
Harry Collier posted an excellent review a few months ago (on the old version of the forum which I think may still be accessible).
I would suggest:
- Jascha Heifetz / Koussevitsky (1940)
- Gioconda De Vito / Schwartz
but my favorite, which you may not be available on CD is:
- Ossy Renardy / Munch
But try and find Harry Collier's post for a very thorough review.
Hahn/Marriner
8)
Quote from: hornteacher on May 29, 2007, 03:10:18 AM
Hahn/Marriner
8)
The little devil must have whispered into your ear. "Be bad hornteacher, you know you wanna!"
Shaham, BPO, Abbado.
BBC CD Review Choice last month.
Coupled with the Double Concerto with Wang the 'cellist.
One of the very best recordings of violin concertos ever made (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Brahms-Concertos-Ludwig-van/dp/B00005NW05/ref=sr_1_2/002-7221080-0835210?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180441748&sr=1-2).
Quote from: Hector on May 29, 2007, 04:20:31 AM
Shaham, BPO, Abbado.
BBC CD Review Choice last month.
Coupled with the Double Concerto with Wang the 'cellist.
I love that recording of the violin concerto, but the double concerto is not as well done, imo.
I have many recordings of this work, and several of which I return to often. But the one I like very much (most?) is one that hardly anyone ever mentions, namely, Kennedy/Tenstedt. It is a slower than usual performance, especially the first two movements, but works beautifully. After this one, the second movement of other recordings just don't seem to have the same effect on me.
Milstein is the other one I like the most.
Quote from: hornteacher on May 29, 2007, 03:10:18 AM
Hahn/Marriner
8)
I bought on your recommendation recently - not a doubt on beautiful violin playing but tempi-wise seemed sluggish to me relatively to Milstein-Fistoulari. A lack of tension and fire in my opinion.
Quote from: Hector on May 29, 2007, 04:20:31 AM
Shaham, BPO, Abbado.
BBC CD Review Choice last month.
Coupled with the Double Concerto with Wang the 'cellist.
There is also a video from Palermo (Shaham, BPO & Abbado) - I have to re-check the CD version and see how I hear Shaham's playing again before reporting back.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 29, 2007, 04:30:16 AM
One of the very best recordings of violin concertos ever made (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Brahms-Concertos-Ludwig-van/dp/B00005NW05/ref=sr_1_2/002-7221080-0835210?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180441748&sr=1-2).
Generally I prefer the Milstein-Fistoulari version to the Steinberg one. Will re-listen and revert. Anyone with an opinion of the Milstein-Jochum DG?
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on May 29, 2007, 02:29:11 AM
Harry Collier posted an excellent review a few months ago (on the old version of the forum which I think may still be accessible).
I would suggest:
- Jascha Heifetz / Koussevitsky (1940)
- Gioconda De Vito / Schwartz
but my favorite, which you may not be available on CD is:
- Ossy Renardy / Munch
But try and find Harry Collier's post for a very thorough review.
XB70 - why do you like the Renardy? - kindly elaborate and articulate your opinions for our benefit. Thanks, R-F
My favourites:
- Szigeti/ Harty (Opus Kura, Symposium, Naxos)
- Krebbers/ Haitink (Philips)
Though I admire (adore) both violinists, I think neither Milstein/ Steinberg (EMI) nor Heifetz/Reiner (RCA) gets to the heart of the matter.
I second the recommendation of the earlier thread by Harry Collier on old GMG (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,12357.0.html).
(Still have Busch and Kulenkampff on my wishlist.)
Q
I'll go ahead and voice my support for the Milstein/Fistoulari recording, as well. It's on a dirt cheap Seraphim disc, and is paired with an equally worthwile Tchaikovsky with Milstein/Steinberg. There are several on this thread I've never heard and can't compare it to, however, so since it's so cheap, you might consider getting one of those on top of this. That's just my amateur opinion, though.
Quote from: Que on May 29, 2007, 09:01:09 AM
Though I admire (adore) both violinists, I think neither Milstein/ Steinberg (EMI) nor Heifetz/Reiner (RCA) gets to the heart of the matter.
Gosh; it was this
Milstein which sold me on the
Brahms (and, for that matter, on the accompanying
Beethoven).
Rabin-Fan made me a convert of the Milstein/Fistoulari recording (which is now available ridiculously cheap, so it should be a no-brainer), but I would also highly recommend Ferras/Schuricht and Hahn/Marriner.
Quote from: O Mensch on May 29, 2007, 11:40:12 AM
Rabin-Fan made me a convert of the Milstein/Fistoulari recording (which is now available ridiculously cheap, so it should be a no-brainer), but I would also highly recommend Ferras/Schuricht and Hahn/Marriner.
Hi O-M, Thanks for the thumbs up on Milstein-F. I bought the Ferras-S on your suggestion but still am more attached to the Milstein-F. As for the Hahn-M, my thoughts are beautiful violin playing but a touch less fast & dramatic than I'd like Brahms VC to be. R-F
I just got Kogan/Kondrashin/Philharmonia on Lp, and I think this is a wonderful recording. I haven' t seen it mentioned much, though.
Quote from: Daverz on May 29, 2007, 01:46:26 PM
I just got Kogan/Kondrashin/Philharmonia on LP, and I think this is a wonderful recording. I haven' t seen it mentioned much, though.
It is on a Kogan EMI two-fer (*), which I have. By far, this is the best Kogan compilation I have seen from EMI. There was a 4 box set from French EMI but I passed on this one - Testament have released some of this stuff on their label.
It (*) also contains the most stupendous Tchaikovsky VC (Silvestri) that I know off.
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on May 29, 2007, 05:18:45 AM
I bought on your recommendation recently - not a doubt on beautiful violin playing but tempi-wise seemed sluggish to me relatively to Milstein-Fistoulari. A lack of tension and fire in my opinion.
When it comes to Hilary, I like to go slow. ;D :o ;D
Seriously though, are you refering to the Brahms CD being sluggish or some other recording? Hahn is usually known for taking things a bit on the fast side (i.e. her Bach CDs and the Beethoven). I have to admit though I've heard fewer recordings of the Brahms than I have say, the Mendelssohn or Beethoven, and my musical attraction to Hahn comes from her gorgeous tone and clean technique rather than tempi, but that's just me. I know of several people who just can't listen to her Bach CD because they think she goes way too fast. I guess one just has to find the artist who "does it" the way one wants it done. Fortunately, there is no shortage of recordings out there.
Quote from: hornteacher on May 29, 2007, 04:27:41 PM
When it comes to Hilary, I like to go slow. ;D :o ;D
Seriously though, are you refering to the Brahms CD being sluggish or some other recording? Hahn is usually known for taking things a bit on the fast side (i.e. her Bach CDs and the Beethoven). I have to admit though I've heard fewer recordings of the Brahms than I have say, the Mendelssohn or Beethoven, and my musical attraction to Hahn comes from her gorgeous tone and clean technique rather than tempi, but that's just me. I know of several people who just can't listen to her Bach CD because they think she goes way too fast. I guess one just has to find the artist who "does it" the way one wants it done. Fortunately, there is no shortage of recordings out there.
I generally enjoyed Hahn's rendition of this piece, with the notable exception of the final movement. For me, it sounds restrained, conservative, and utterly anticlimatic. I've always preferred the Perlman in this concerto anyway.
Quote from: hornteacher on May 29, 2007, 04:27:41 PM
When it comes to Hilary, I like to go slow. ;D :o ;D Seriously though, are you referring to the Brahms CD being sluggish or some other recording? Hahn is usually known for taking things a bit on the fast side (i.e. her Bach CDs and the Beethoven). I have to admit though I've heard fewer recordings of the Brahms than I have say, the Mendelssohn or Beethoven, and my musical attraction to Hahn comes from her gorgeous tone and clean technique rather than tempi, but that's just me.
The Stravinsky VC is very fast as she takes the composer's marking at face value. Other players seem sluggish in Igor's VC. However, if you place Hahn's Brahms against Milstein-Fistoulari or any Heifetz - it is sluggish and lacks drama. Just beautiful tones and violin playing. Sorry guys & girls.
Quote from: hornteacher on May 29, 2007, 04:27:41 PM
When it comes to Hilary, I like to go slow. ;D :o ;D
Seriously though, are you refering to the Brahms CD being sluggish or some other recording? Hahn is usually known for taking things a bit on the fast side (i.e. her Bach CDs and the Beethoven). I have to admit though I've heard fewer recordings of the Brahms than I have say, the Mendelssohn or Beethoven, and my musical attraction to Hahn comes from her gorgeous tone and clean technique rather than tempi, but that's just me. I know of several people who just can't listen to her Bach CD because they think she goes way too fast. I guess one just has to find the artist who "does it" the way one wants it done. Fortunately, there is no shortage of recordings out there.
Hahn certainly isn't slow (for slow check out Mutter/Masur). Hahn is unfussy and not over-emotional, some might say a bit too careful. But it's still amazing fiddle work and a perfectly valid interpretation in its own right. Marriner certainly isn't the most exciting of accompanists, but the orchestra is aglow just from Hilary's presence. I have observed that in performance as well, actually. Even the most jaded and bored orchestra somehow catches fire when she's playing. I heard Marriner/ASMIF with Hahn in the Stravinsky live. Marriner/ASMIF produced the most pedestrian and uninvolved Beethoven 2 in the first half. But when they were playing the concerto with Hahn, suddenly everyone was energized and enjoying themselves. Same with Sawallisch/Philly which I heard with Hahn live in the Brahms (and which was possibly a notch better still than the recording with Marriner, mostly on account of the superlative orchestra, but also for Hahn live). Speaking of which, the Hahn Brahms CD is worth the price of admission for the Stravinsky alone. Easily top choice.
H Hahn's Paganini VC 1 & Spohr's VC 8 CD seems a bit slow for me - relative to other players like M Rabin in No.1 and Heifetz & Hoelscher in No.8. She emphasizes the lyrical aspects of both pieces. I heard the CD but did not buy the disc.
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on May 29, 2007, 07:16:53 PM
H Hahn's Paganini VC 1 & Spohr's VC 8 CD seems a bit slow for me - relative to other players like M Rabin in No.1 and Heifetz & Hoelscher in No.8. She emphasizes the lyrical aspects of both pieces. I heard the CD but did not buy the disc.
According to Hahn, she wanted to emphasize the operatic qualities of Paganini's writing. So "lyrical" is a good way of describing it. I think she was trying to make more of it than it really is. Ultimately the Paganini breaks down once you start paying too much attention to the painfully pedestrian and bombastic handling of the orchestral part. Focus on just sheer violin virtuosity and you're fine. But Hahn eschews that sort of approach generally - for which I greatly commend her in other repertoire, but with Paganini, really what's left?
Quote from: O Mensch on May 29, 2007, 07:13:31 PM
Hahn certainly isn't slow (for slow check out Mutter/Masur). Hahn is unfussy and not over-emotional, some might say a bit too careful. But it's still amazing fiddle work and a perfectly valid interpretation in its own right. Marriner certainly isn't the most exciting of accompanists, but the orchestra is aglow just from Hilary's presence. I have observed that in performance as well, actually. Even the most jaded and bored orchestra somehow catches fire when she's playing. Speaking of which, the Hahn Brahms CD is worth the price of admission for the Stravinsky alone. Easily top choice.
GBP6.23 was the price I paid for Hahn's Brahms VC. International price was GBP9.79. A great deal in Singapore. Also bought Tch VC (Bell, BPO, MTT), Mozart VC 1 to 3 (D Oistrakh, BPO, EMI) and J Jansen (Mend & Bruch VC1, LGO, Chailly). Now the last item that I got on holiday is a great gem. I am comparing with my top versions on Bruch VC 1 & Mend VC.
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on May 29, 2007, 07:40:18 PM
I am comparing with my top versions on Bruch VC 1 & Mend VC.
Let me throw in a suggestion: for the Bruch check out Chloe Hanslip. Seriously. A Bruch of unusual maturity and accomplishment. Gripping performance.
Well I'm going to go against the flow and suggest
Heifetz/Reiner
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on May 29, 2007, 03:00:56 PM
It is on a Kogan EMI two-fer (*), which I have. By far, this is the best Kogan compilation I have seen from EMI. There was a 4 box set from French EMI but I passed on this one - Testament have released some of this stuff on their label.
Thanks. I just ordered the French set -- and also the "Introuvables" sets of Oistrakh, Milstein, and Tortelier -- from amazon.fr. The Testament release looks like it has a different recording of the Brahms?
http://www.testament.co.uk/shop/product.aspx?id=41
Quote
It (*) also contains the most stupendous Tchaikovsky VC (Silvestri) that I know off.
I also picked up the Tchaikovsky in the same vinyl hunting trip.
You have to get Oistrakh (EMI with Szell and also includes the D minor Sonata) and, no matter what, stay away from Anne-Sophie Mutter. ;D
Quote from: op.110 on May 29, 2007, 09:56:25 PM
You have to get Oistrakh (EMI with Szell and also includes the D minor Sonata) and, no matter what, stay away from Anne-Sophie Mutter. ;D
Oistrakh-Szell is very nice and good. But his triple stopping leaves something to be desired in Mvt 1. May prefer Oistrakh-Klemperer here. But the 2nd mvt with Szell is gorgeous.
Quote from: O Mensch on May 29, 2007, 08:03:11 PM
Let me throw in a suggestion: for the Bruch check out Chloe Hanslip. Seriously. A Bruch of unusual maturity and accomplishment. Gripping performance.
Chloe came to Malaysia but did not play a very good Mendelssohn VC. It was rhythmically poor - she rushed and the Guarneri seemed too big for her small frame and hands. So, I may pass on Chloe's Bruch. Sorry!
Quote from: Daverz on May 29, 2007, 09:52:47 PM
Thanks. I just ordered the French set -- and also the "Introuvables" sets of Oistrakh, Milstein, and Tortelier -- from amazon.fr. The Testament release looks like it has a different recording of the Brahms?
http://www.testament.co.uk/shop/product.aspx?id=41
I also picked up the Tchaikovsky in the same vinyl hunting trip.
The 4-CD set did not have very good sound. So, the Kogan-Silvestri is vital in a collection. Did you enjoy your LP of the Tch VC?
Quote from: O Mensch on May 29, 2007, 07:20:10 PM
According to Hahn, she wanted to emphasize the operatic qualities of Paganini's writing. So "lyrical" is a good way of describing it. I think she was trying to make more of it than it really is. Ultimately the Paganini breaks down once you start paying too much attention to the painfully pedestrian and bombastic handling of the orchestral part. Focus on just sheer violin virtuosity and you're fine. But Hahn eschews that sort of approach generally - for which I greatly commend her in other repertoire, but with Paganini, really what's left?
Well, good for Hahn and her lyrical approach. But I love M Rabin's manner with the Paganini VC 1 - great singing tone, immaculate technique, daredevil playing and crystal clear double harmonics - my top version for this piece.
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on May 29, 2007, 11:54:48 PM
The 4-CD set did not have very good sound. So, the Kogan-Silvestri is vital in a collection. Did you enjoy your LP of the Tch VC?
The Kogan/Kondrashin Brahms sounds quite good on Lp (except for surface noise). Is that the version in the Introuvables set? Not sure I want yet another Brahms concerto at Testament prices.
My favorites:
David Oistrakh with Szell
Milstein with Jochum
Heifetz with Reiner
Stern with Ormandy
and I am waiting to hear the recent version of Julia Fischer
Quote from: val on May 30, 2007, 12:28:23 AM
and I am waiting to hear the recent version of Julia Fischer
Yes, I'm interested in that one too.
I've dampled with many, and found really only one that suited me. The Stern/Ormandy really stands out for me. I fancy his approach to the final movement. I have yet to try Oistrakh, though.
Quote from: Bunny on May 29, 2007, 04:47:07 AM
I love that recording of the violin concerto, but the double concerto is not as well done, imo.
I suspected as much.
As is usual, the BBC plays the recording chosen that weekend, now, on the following Monday morning.
It was mightily impressive. He doesn't mess around with the tempo and receives strong support from Abbado.
Truly inspired, imo, on first hearing.
Quote from: Hector on May 30, 2007, 04:08:41 AM
I suspected as much.
As is usual, the BBC plays the recording chosen that weekend, now, on the following Monday morning.
It was mightily impressive. He doesn't mess around with the tempo and receives strong support from Abbado.
Truly inspired, imo, on first hearing.
I picked up the recording at Yourmusic or the the other BMG music club for next to nothing, and I was surprised to hear what was a perfect violin concerto. Shaham's performance is that good, and as you have written, Abbado was in strong support. I think the problem with the double concerto is Gian Wang, who to my mind has tons of talent, but is an extremely conflicted individual. I don't know what the story is with him, but what I have heard of his work is very strange, especially his Bach cello suites which sound as if he hates performing. In any event, if you can find the recording at a good price, it's a definite buy, because I don't think you will find a
modern recording of the Brahms v/c that can better it.
Well, I found the recording at Arkivmusic.com, and they have David Hurwitz's review (10/10 for the V/C alone). Here's a link (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=57832) if you want to see it.
Quote from: Bunny on May 30, 2007, 04:35:52 AM
I picked up the recording at Yourmusic or the the other BMG music club for next to nothing, and I was surprised to hear what was a perfect violin concerto. Shaham's performance is that good, and as you have written, Abbado was in strong support. I think the problem with the double concerto is Gian Wang, who to my mind has tons of talent, but is an extremely conflicted individual. I don't know what the story is with him, but what I have heard of his work is very strange, especially his Bach cello suites which sound as if he hates performing. In any event, if you can find the recording at a good price, it's a definite buy, because I don't think you will find a modern recording of the Brahms v/c that can better it.
Well, I found the recording at Arkivmusic.com, and they have David Hurwitz's review (10/10 for the V/C alone). Here's a link (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=57832) if you want to see it.
That would certainly explain the disparity between the excellent Violin Concerto, and the less than spectacular Double.
Still, I felt that tempi were a little rushed in the Double Concerto. So it wasn't just the spotty playing by Wang.
Since he hasn't yet been mentioned on this particular thread, I'll inject the name of Szeryng. His Brahms VC with Monteux is a classic account and beautifully recorded. Harry Collier (in his earlier survey) opined that Szeryng's performance, though justly famous, lacked the distinct personality or approach that others brought to this concerto. I do understand Harry's point of view--but recently heard the filmed version with Szeryng and Paray on an EMI DVD, which I think may provide listeners with a much more in-the-moment experience AND a fresher approach than the Monteux recording.
My personal pantheon includes Heifetz/Reiner, Krebbers/Haitink, and Oistrakh/Szell in the stereo realm. I hesitate to list near-the-top and historic performances, lest I keep typing all afternoon.
;D
Dirk
Quote from: dirkronk on May 30, 2007, 11:31:15 AM
My personal pantheon includes Heifetz/Reiner, Krebbers/Haitink, and Oistrakh/Szell in the stereo realm. I hesitate to list near-the-top and historic performances, lest I keep typing all afternoon.
;D
Dirk
I will re-listen to the Szeryng but it did not strike me as special. Of your 3 above, Heifetz-R feels hasty relative to Milstein-Fistoulari, Krebbers very nice at a slower tempo (not great technique but very musical), Oistrakh-Szell has one of the most gorgeous 2nd mvt (poor triple stopping in the 1st mvt).
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on May 30, 2007, 01:31:17 PM
I will re-listen to the Szeryng but it did not strike me as special. Of your 3 above, Heifetz-R feels hasty relative to Milstein-Fistoulari, Krebbers very nice at a slower tempo (not great technique but very musical), Oistrakh-Szell has one of the most gorgeous 2nd mvt (poor triple stopping in the 1st mvt).
Milstein/Fistoulari is on my shortlist to acquire and hear. Normally, I love Milstein, but have been less thrilled by his Steinberg Brahms (in contrast to their Beethoven, which is one of my favorites) and just recently acquired the Sabata. Perhaps the Fistoulari will be the one from Milstein that I've awaited!
As for the Heifetz/Reiner, I pretty much cut my teeth on it, so the pacing, phrasing, everything sounds as I expect from the music...natch. Still, here's an odd thing about that performance: I've owned (and still own) assorted transfers on vinyl, and find that the early mono transfer (that is, the one on maroon label LP in the US) has far more satisfying overall balance than any of the stereo transfers, including those on CD reissues. This balance issue is so striking that, when I first heard it, I thought that it might actually be a different take/performance. No, I'm not seriously suggesting that it WAS a different one, just that it seemed that way. Far from being just my opinion, two of my most trusted listening buddies have heard and commented on the same thing. Anyone else happen to note this in your listening?
For years, I've used the Beethoven violin concerto as a sort of basis against which to check each violinist's technique and style, and thus I have dozens of versions. Still, I've recently noticed that my accumulation of Brahms VCs is beginning to rival the Beethoven stash. One of these days, I MUST do a serious spin-off.
Dirk
Quote from: dirkronk on May 30, 2007, 02:45:12 PM
Milstein/Fistoulari is on my shortlist to acquire and hear. Normally, I love Milstein, but have been less thrilled by his Steinberg Brahms (in contrast to their Beethoven, which is one of my favorites) and just recently acquired the Sabata. Perhaps the Fistoulari will be the one from Milstein that I've awaited!
That was my attitude as well until Rabin-fan convinced me to hear the Fistoulari (actually it was more the low price of the disc). It is very different than the Steinberg version. So now I squarely blame Steinberg for his charmless conducting. ;D
Quote from: dirkronk on May 30, 2007, 02:45:12 PM
Milstein/Fistoulari is on my shortlist to acquire and hear. Normally, I love Milstein, but have been less thrilled by his Steinberg Brahms (in contrast to their Beethoven, which is one of my favorites) and just recently acquired the Sabata. Perhaps the Fistoulari will be the one from Milstein that I've awaited!
As for the Heifetz/Reiner, I pretty much cut my teeth on it, so the pacing, phrasing, everything sounds as I expect from the music...natch. Still, here's an odd thing about that performance: I've owned (and still own) assorted transfers on vinyl, and find that the early mono transfer (that is, the one on maroon label LP in the US) has far more satisfying overall balance than any of the stereo transfers, including those on CD reissues. This balance issue is so striking that, when I first heard it, I thought that it might actually be a different take/performance. No, I'm not seriously suggesting that it WAS a different one, just that it seemed that way. Far from being just my opinion, two of my most trusted listening buddies have heard and commented on the same thing. Anyone else happen to note this in your listening?
For years, I've used the Beethoven violin concerto as a sort of basis against which to check each violinist's technique and style, and thus I have dozens of versions. Still, I've recently noticed that my accumulation of Brahms VCs is beginning to rival the Beethoven stash. One of these days, I MUST do a serious spin-off.
Dirk
Dirk - you MUST hear the Milstein-Fistoulari! It is on a 6CD EMI box. I also have 1 French EMI CD with his Bruch VC 1 (Barzin). You did not say anything about de Sabata. I am awaiting comments about the Jochum DG version too. The proof is in the listening. You WILL NOT regret buying the Fistoulari version. (I did not like the Steinberg Beethoven - the middle section in 1 mvt when it goes to G minor and the rhythm is quaver (eighth note) followed by 2 semiquavers (16th notes). Milstein makes them sound like crushed semiquavers.
O Mensch - Glad you picked up the Fistoulari - it is different from what Milstein usually produces - I think the Jochum version as not so interesting without any fiery-ness. When I went to Singapore a year or so ago, this one (Fistoulari) really caught my ears. I'm glad I got it. Cheers R-F
I think there are two more Brahms VC Milstein CDs (with Bruno Walter on Archipel and P Monteux on Tahra). Any comments on these?
A check on Amazon.com reveals much enthusiasm for the Milstein-Fistoulari version.
Quote from: val on May 30, 2007, 12:28:23 AM
and I am waiting to hear the recent version of Julia Fischer
It's OK. Well played. Very "classical" and leisurely tempi. If there were no other versions around, it would be worth investigating. I bought it .. because I buy them all. But it won't be on my turntable too often (the Brahms double with which it is coupled is a good buy, however).
Listened to the Milstein-Fistoulari version wide-eyed today whilst driving to work - stunning - it combines Heifetz-like technique with some Oistrakh-like warmth with some very expressive playing.
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on May 31, 2007, 07:47:12 PM
Listened to the Milstein-Fistoulari version wide-eyed today whilst driving to work - stunning - it combines Heifetz-like technique with some Oistrakh-like warmth with some very expressive playing.
Lee, I've heard you extolling this version for years now (in the Gramophone forum too, three, four years ago?). Okay, I finally bought it. This better be
damn good ;)
Sarge
I've just heard an excellent vintage recording of this concerto with Fritz Kreisler. Ahh, what deft playing! :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 07, 2007, 06:56:00 AM
Lee, I've heard you extolling this version for years now (in the Gramophone forum too, three, four years ago?). Okay, I finally bought it. This better be damn good ;)
Sarge
Well, if you bought the Seraphim CD - it is pretty cheap. No loss to you if you don't like it. Just a few bucks. Milstein was a violinist that I did not like when I was younger - too cool perhaps - but when I heard this version, it sounds like he was a different man - so fiery, expressive, etc. Hope you like it.
Heard the Milstein-Fistoulari, Heifetz-Reiner and Krebbers in succession during the drive to work today.
For fiery-ness, Milstein is tops. Heifetz's last mvt is not very stable in terms of rhythm. Krebbers is excellent for rhythm in the last mvt.
Lots of those mentioned are worthy performances, but to me, the greatest Brahms VC recording of all is Szeryng/Monteux/LSO.
I also listened to the Krebbers-Haitink version with the RCOA today with starry eyes. It is very strong in terms of rhythm, lyricism and Krebbers' technique & tone are superb.
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on June 07, 2007, 01:48:48 PM
Well, if you bought the Seraphim CD - it is pretty cheap. No loss to you if you don't like it. Just a few bucks. Milstein was a violinist that I did not like when I was younger - too cool perhaps - but when I heard this version, it sounds like he was a different man - so fiery, expressive, etc. Hope you like it.
Yes, the Seraphim. They were practically giving it away so, yes, it was no financial burden. I still haven't listened to it. Got caught up in my new Shostakovich cycle. Maybe tonight after dinner I'll have a chance to take a close listen and do a little comparative listening too.
Sarge
Quote from: Michel on May 29, 2007, 12:22:34 AM
A good piece of music that I enjoy..
Only I only have Perlman/Barenboim - I want one other recording. What should I get?
The Brahms VC is a very strong piece and works well with some different approaches. My own favorite is Zino Francescatti with Leonard Bernstein and the NYPO, though it cries out for some refurbishing of the orchestral sound which is a bit hard. He seems to do more interpretatively with it than anyone else I have heard. His tempos are middling fast. The coupling is a very good Sibelius VC, though it's not my favorite (Ricci/Fjelstad).
A safer general recommendation is Heifetz/Reiner, played as usual faster than anyone else. But it is a terrific performance, very exciting, and beautiful in the slow movement, too, pretty well-recorded and I believe there is a sonically refurbished issue out now.
For a bit slower performance, Oistrakh/Szell is wonderfully well done, very beautiful and lyrical.
Quote from: Xenophanes on June 09, 2007, 05:50:16 PM
The Brahms VC is a very strong piece
To say the least ;D
Quote from: Xenophanes on June 09, 2007, 05:50:16 PM
For a bit slower performance, Oistrakh/Szell is wonderfully well done, very beautiful and lyrical.
Agreed! His playing is so warm and dramatically lyrical.
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on June 07, 2007, 10:45:55 PM
Heard the Milstein-Fistoulari, Heifetz-Reiner and Krebbers in succession during the drive to work today.
For fiery-ness, Milstein is tops. Heifetz's last mvt is not very stable in terms of rhythm. Krebbers is excellent for rhythm in the last mvt.
Not stable in rhythm?
Krebbers was after Heifetz on my I-Pod. His rhythm is more commanding relative to Heifetz in the 3rd mvt. Check it out if you have both versions.
no mention for Mutter/Karajan?
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 11, 2007, 08:05:59 AM
no mention for Mutter/Karajan?
Mutter's Brahms....... :o
Not for me,
mon vieux.
Quote from: Steve on June 11, 2007, 08:08:19 AM
Mutter's Brahms....... :o
Not for me, mon vieux.
i think it's fine, and deserves a mention.
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 11, 2007, 09:33:08 AM
i think it's fine, and deserves a mention.
Yes, but only the Karajan version, not the later Masur-slo-mo-molasses-fest.
Quote from: O Mensch on June 11, 2007, 10:12:47 AM
Yes, but only the Karajan version, not the later Masur-slo-mo-molasses-fest.
yeah, of course i am talking about the karajan version.
Mutter-Karajan - tempos, rhythm, playing all very fine. It is just her vibrato and tone that is an acquired taste for me.
I like her Brahms too ;D
Sarge
Quote from: hornteacher on May 29, 2007, 03:10:18 AM
Hahn/Marriner
8)
After listening to excerpts, I would say this is the worst recording of the Brahms VC I have ever heard, mostly because of Marriner.
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 11, 2007, 08:05:59 AM
no mention for Mutter/Karajan?
It is one of those CD's that's been on my shelf for a long time, but I recall it as a very fine effort, indeed.
Quote from: head-case on June 11, 2007, 02:44:50 PM
After listening to excerpts, I would say this is the worst recording of the Brahms VC I have ever heard, mostly because of Marriner.
I think you need to listen again on a better system. The violin playing is unquestionably superlative, even if the orchestral work is a bit square.
David Oistrakh is the one I prefer.
Though I am not really a huge fan of concertos in general.
Quote from: head-case on June 11, 2007, 02:44:50 PM
After listening to excerpts, I would say this is the worst recording of the Brahms VC I have ever heard, mostly because of Marriner.
.......in your opinion, (and you are entitled to it), but the people who awarded it a Grammy and made it a bestselling CD would tend to disagree.
Quote from: Steve on June 11, 2007, 08:08:19 AM
Mutter's Brahms....... :o
Not for me, mon vieux.
I bought her live recording of the Brahms with the New York Philharmonic (Masur). By far the worst purchase I've ever made. EVER.
After replying, I realize people have already mentioned her recording with Masur, but it's worth emphasizing that it's a piece of garbage.
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 11, 2007, 08:05:59 AM
no mention for Mutter/Karajan?
Not my favorite, but it's certainly up there. DG has a good coupling for it with Mendelssohn.
Quote from: hornteacher on June 11, 2007, 04:23:50 PM
.......in your opinion, (and you are entitled to it), but the people who awarded it a Grammy and made it a bestselling CD would tend to disagree.
Britney Spears has also won a grammy award and sold many many times more records. I guess that makes Britney Spears even better. The people the made Hahn a best selling artist and Grammy winner are the ones that stare at her cute little boobs on the record covers, again very similar to the case of Britney Spears.
>:D
Quote from: head-case on June 11, 2007, 09:49:25 PM
Britney Spears has also won a grammy award and sold many many times more records. I guess that makes Britney Spears even better.
I've never heard Britney in Brahms -- thought she was more a Prokofiev girl. Seriously, you make a good point. It is difficult to separate success due to extraordinary musical ability from success due to good ability plus a first-class publicity machine (plus, today, the essential possession of first-class boobs if you are a female violinist, pianist or singer).
Quote from: head-case on June 11, 2007, 09:49:25 PM
Britney Spears has also won a grammy award and sold many many times more records. I guess that makes Britney Spears even better. The people the made Hahn a best selling artist and Grammy winner are the ones that stare at her cute little boobs on the record covers, again very similar to the case of Britney Spears.
>:D
I wont play this game. We'll just agree to disagree.
Quote from: Harry Collier on June 11, 2007, 11:11:52 PM
I've never heard Britney in Brahms -- thought she was more a Prokofiev girl. Seriously, you make a good point. It is difficult to separate success due to extraordinary musical ability from success due to good ability plus a first-class publicity machine (plus, today, the essential possession of first-class boobs if you are a female violinist, pianist or singer).
Oh, come on, Harry. You know it's not difficult to separate the truly gifted musician from the merely hyped. All you have to do is listen to the artist. And since when did popularity suddenly become a cause for suspicion anyhow? Weren't Heifetz, Horowitz and Rubinstein great musicians?
I've seen Hahn three times: playing the Meyer, the Schönberg, and a recital of Janacek, Beethoven, Mozart, Tartini. Her range is extraordinary and her willingness to tackle the Schönberg, and play it better than anyone ever has (not only my opinion but the opinion of many critics all across Europe) more than proves she's the real thing.
There is often the reverse psychology at play here: some men, seeing a beautiful woman, can't see the talent for the beauty; or can't accept the fact a pretty woman might actually have brains and talent too. I suppose it's too threatening. There's also the possibility they simply don't like women. They could be chauvinists, misogynists, or swing for the other team.
I'm truly astonished how much hatred is aimed at female artists like Mutter and Hahn. I don't get it. Neither head-case nor op.110 made a case against these violinists. They just hurled abuse with no written justification. Troll-ish behavior.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 03:43:30 AM
I'm truly astonished how much hatred is aimed at female artists like Mutter and Hahn. I don't get it. Neither head-case nor op.110 made a case against these violinists. They just hurled abuse with no written justification. Troll-ish behavior.
I have no disinclination towards female performers. Mutter, who I have praised on this thread, I find fantastic and numerous female performers are at or near the top of my list of preferences. However, when I have heard Hahn (in the Brahms concerto and in the Bach concerti) I found her playing to be worse than bad, technical flash with no expressiveness behind it. I have never heard her live, but I find her recordings to be among the absolute worst available. That she won a Grammy (presumably for best evening gown) is not relevant.
Quote from: head-case on June 12, 2007, 05:11:13 AM
I have no disinclination towards female performers. Mutter, who I have praised on this thread, I find fantastic and numerous female performers are at or near the top of my list of preferences. However, when I have heard Hahn (in the Brahms concerto and in the Bach concerti) I found her playing to be worse than bad, technical flash with no expressiveness behind it. I have never heard her live, but I find her recordings to be among the absolute worst available. That she won a Grammy (presumably for best evening gown) is not relevant.
I'm sorry, but you need to do a blind listening test (with someone neutral feeding you the listening samples). You are clearly not separating the musical from your own prejudices here. Whatever issues you may take with her interpretation (and it's really rather straightforward and unmannerred), your above description just doesn't describe her playing. Perhaps you ought to hear her live as it would dispel some of your prejudices. She is not glamorous or flashy at all to begin with, but very down to earth in person. I have heard her live now nine times (three recitals, Brahms, Meyer, Mozart, Goldmark, Stravinsky, Shostakovitch concertos) and hers is among the most natural and unpretentious musicmaking I have ever witnessed. It inspires the dullest most jaded orchestras that play with her.
Quote from: head-case on June 12, 2007, 05:11:13 AM
I have no disinclination towards female performers. Mutter, who I have praised on this thread, I find fantastic and numerous female performers are at or near the top of my list of preferences. However, when I have heard Hahn (in the Brahms concerto and in the Bach concerti) I found her playing to be worse than bad, technical flash with no expressiveness behind it. I have never heard her live, but I find her recordings to be among the absolute worst available. That she won a Grammy (presumably for best evening gown) is not relevant.
Ah, yes... ;D
(Or were you referring to Hahn? ;))
(http://www.tokafi.com/newsitems/asshelikesit/2005-10-25.8467932294/image)
Q
Quote from: Que on June 12, 2007, 07:30:30 AM
Ah, yes... ;D
(Or were you referring to Hahn? ;))
(http://www.tokafi.com/newsitems/asshelikesit/2005-10-25.8467932294/image)
Q
Exactly. I can't believe someone who adores Mutter rips Hahn for supposedly getting gigs only for her visuals when she isn't half as glam as Mutter.
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 10:53:05 AM
Exactly. I can't believe someone who adores Mutter rips Hahn for supposedly getting gigs only for her visuals when she isn't half as glam as Mutter.
Despite the enormous budget DG apparently allocates for Mutter's wardrobe of late, her playing overshadows her visuals (which are not spectacular, IMO).
Quote from: head-case on June 12, 2007, 12:12:44 PM
Despite the enormous budget DG apparently allocates for Mutter's wardrobe of late, her playing overshadows her visuals (which are not spectacular, IMO).
I beg to differ. I find that her playing has deteriorated in recent years (having heard her live on a number of occasions). Many of her interpretive twists seem completely whimsical and illogical. Nothing that I have heard of her recently compares to her landmark recordings from her youth.
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 01:02:09 PM
I beg to differ. I find that her playing has deteriorated in recent years (having heard her live on a number of occasions). Many of her interpretive twists seem completely whimsical and illogical. Nothing that I have heard of her recently compares to her landmark recordings from her youth.
I am also mostly familiar with the landmark recordings from her "youth" and am not very interested in all of the highly touted "projects" of recent years.
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 01:02:09 PM
I beg to differ. I find that her playing has deteriorated in recent years (having heard her live on a number of occasions). Many of her interpretive twists seem completely whimsical and illogical. Nothing that I have heard of her recently compares to her landmark recordings from her youth.
Hear, Hear! I agree with O Mensch. The younger Mutter (and Vengerov) were better than their current selves. I did not buy the latest Vengerov too (Mozart 2, 4 & K364 as well as his LvB VC) for the same reasons.
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 01:02:09 PM
I beg to differ. I find that her playing has deteriorated in recent years (having heard her live on a number of occasions). Many of her interpretive twists seem completely whimsical and illogical. Nothing that I have heard of her recently compares to her landmark recordings from her youth.
I've heard her recently too and simply don't agree. Yes, her Tchaikovsky borders on the bizzare..okay,
is bizzare ;D ...but nothing else I've heard, on record or live, deserves to be called a deterioration. A change of style, sure, and one either likes it or doesn't. She's become a very individual player. That will alienate many, I realize, but I love her individual take on the Brahms. I find it far more interesting than her performance with Karajan. Her self-conducted Four Seasons completely eclipses her earlier version with Karajan.
Sarge
Quote from: head-case on June 12, 2007, 05:11:13 AM
I have no disinclination towards female performers. Mutter, who I have praised on this thread, I find fantastic and numerous female performers are at or near the top of my list of preferences. However, when I have heard Hahn (in the Brahms concerto and in the Bach concerti) I found her playing to be worse than bad, technical flash with no expressiveness behind it.
Okay. A case
can be made that her Bach and Brahms lacks a certain expressiveness. Her Bach concertos are my least favorite Hahn performances (I vastly prefer Mutter here) and if her Bach were all I'd heard, I might agree whole-heartedly with you. But I've heard considerably more. I would just urge you not to give up on her. Listen to her Mendelssohn, Barber, Elgar, Meyer. If you enjoy Schönberg, I guarantee she's gonna blow you away next year.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 02:11:02 PM
I've heard her recently too and simply don't agree. Yes, her Tchaikovsky borders on the bizzare..okay, is bizzare ;D ...but nothing else I've heard, on record or live, deserves to be called a deterioration. A change of style, sure, and one either likes it or doesn't. She's become a very individual player. That will alienate many, I realize, but I love her individual take on the Brahms. I find it far more interesting than her performance with Karajan. Her self-conducted Four Seasons completely eclipses her earlier version with Karajan.
Haven't heard her in Tchaikovsky. I am basing what I said on hearing her live in NY a couple of years ago in Beethoven (Ozawa/BSO) and Brahms (Masur/NYPO). Bizzarre and individual can be interesting if there is a coherent and convincing interpretive thread. But I am missing that in her recent work.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 02:20:30 PM
Okay. A case can be made that her Bach and Brahms lacks a certain expressiveness. Her Bach concertos are my least favorite Hahn performances (I vastly prefer Mutter here) and if her Bach were all I'd heard, I might agree whole-heartedly with you. But I've heard considerably more. I would just urge you not to give up on her. Listen to her Mendelssohn, Barber, Elgar, Meyer. If you enjoy Schönberg, I guarantee she's gonna blow you away next year.
Or Sibelius, for that matter, which she will be recording with Salonen. I'd agree that her Bach concertos are, well, a bit tense and restless without being dramatic. But then again, nobody has bettered Francescatti here. I am rather fond of her clean and unpretentious Brahms. I don't find that one lacking at all. It's a different take, but viable in its own right. If anything is weak here, it's the orchestra. Having heard her play this live with Philly and Sawallisch, I know how much better this recording could have been with a more sonorous ensemble. BTW, I have a tape recorded off Dutch radio of a very fine 1999 recital of hers featuring, inter alia, a very fine rendition of one of the Brahms sonatas and the Debussy sonata.
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 03:26:07 PM
I'd agree that her Bach concertos are, well, a bit tense and restless without being dramatic. But then again, nobody has bettered Francescatti here.
For the Bach, there's the Grumiaux, and there are all the rest...
Quote from: head-case on June 12, 2007, 03:30:57 PM
For the Bach, there's the Grumiaux, and there are all the rest...
In the concertos? Have you heard Francescatti? Grumiaux dies have very fine Sonatas and Partitas, but I haven't heard his Bach concertos.
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 03:26:07 PM
Haven't heard her in Tchaikovsky.
Well, when you do, that will confirm every negative thing you think about her. Me, the Mutter fanboy even has a hard time digesting it. It is fascinating, in a very perverse way. The Korngold it's coupled with withstands that ultra-romantic, ultra-mannered, vibrato-ladened style and survives...just barely ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 02:20:30 PM
Okay. A case can be made that her Bach and Brahms lacks a certain expressiveness. Her Bach concertos are my least favorite Hahn performances (I vastly prefer Mutter here) and if her Bach were all I'd heard, I might agree whole-heartedly with you. But I've heard considerably more. I would just urge you not to give up on her. Listen to her Mendelssohn, Barber, Elgar, Meyer. If you enjoy Schönberg, I guarantee she's gonna blow you away next year.
Sarge
Don't forget her Berg which is my favorite.
Quote from: Bunny on June 12, 2007, 04:59:46 PM
Don't forget her Berg which is my favorite.
Are you talking about Mutter now?
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 05:01:51 PM
Are you talking about Mutter now?
(http://www.tokafi.com/newsitems/asshelikesit/2005-10-25.8467932294/image)
Yes. It's hard keeping track of the "shes" in this thread.
I loathe that dress. And I loathe that picture, too. And I tried to give away that set but it kept popping up like a bad penny. Still, the Mozart was well done for what it is, which isn't exactly (to say the least) to my taste as I prefer my Mozart more HIP than romantical. >:D
I do like Hahn, and also Suwanai who hasn't been discussed yet here. Her Bach is excellent. I'm also wondering if anyone has heard Julia Fischer's Tchaik concerto which has garnered quite a bit of critical acclaim. It does seem to be ladies night here. ;)
someone re-title this thread "mutter: bad... or terrible?" ;D
I agree, her Mendelssohn is very good, and probbaly one of the best takes I've heard of the piece.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EG1FDX9KL._SS500_.jpg)
But, having said that and in general, that vibrato of hers has got to be controlled! At times, her vibrato sounds too nervous. She's a very romantic player, and Sarge, I agree her playing is very unique. But sometimes unique is not always the best.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 03:43:30 AM
Oh, come on, Harry. You know it's not difficult to separate the truly gifted musician from the merely hyped. All you have to do is listen to the artist.
So why are we all talking about Hilary Hahn, rather than Akiko Suwanai? Or Anne-Sophie Mutter rather than Janine Jansen? To name but a few. There is hordes of talent out there, but few are heard of. It has, of course, always been thus. But let us not kid ourselves that the reason we have all heard of X, but few have heard of why, is just a question of talent. Is not one of the greatest recorded performances of the Beethoven violin concerto that by Igor Bezrodny? Who? (Actually, yes it is. But more people have heard of Isaac Stern, or Andre Rieu, than of Igor).
Quote from: Harry Collier on June 12, 2007, 10:56:30 PM
So why are we all talking about Hilary Hahn, rather than Akiko Suwanai? Or Anne-Sophie Mutter rather than Janine Jansen? To name but a few. There is hordes of talent out there, but few are heard of. It has, of course, always been thus. But let us not kid ourselves that the reason we have all heard of X, but few have heard of why, is just a question of talent. Is not one of the greatest recorded performances of the Beethoven violin concerto that by Igor Bezrodny? Who? (Actually, yes it is. But more people have heard of Isaac Stern, or Andre Rieu, than of Igor).
Come on. It's not all a conspiracy. Some of these excel in certain repertoire but fall short in others. Janine Jansen is not exactly underpublicized. But she's young and has only now started really touring. She has only two discs to her name both of which have been very well received. I don't doubt that we will be talking about her for quite a while. Rieu appeals to a different crowd entirely. He should not be mentioned in this forum at all. Every one of the chicks in his ensemble plays the violin better than he does.
Quote from: O Mensch on June 13, 2007, 06:17:33 AM
Janine Jansen is not exactly underpublicized. But she's young and has only now started really touring. She has only two discs to her name both of which have been very well received. I don't doubt that we will be talking about her for quite a while.
O-Mensch - There are 3 Jansen CDs. The 1st lollipops debut CD with the 4 Seasons and the Bruch 1/Mend VC plus Bruch Romance (a must buy for lovers of excellent playing and fine orch sounds - one of the very best modern Bruch/Mend
VC couplings). R-F
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on June 13, 2007, 01:14:42 PM
O-Mensch - There are 3 Jansen CDs. The 1st lollipops debut CD with the 4 Seasons and the Bruch 1/Mend VC plus Bruch Romance (a must buy for lovers of excellent playing and fine orch sounds - one of the very best modern Bruch/Mend
VC couplings). R-F
You just listed two:
1. the Vivaldi
2. The Mendelssohn/Bruch
I was aware of these (both of them are from the last two years or so). What's the third?
Quote from: O Mensch on June 13, 2007, 02:02:29 PM
I was aware of these (both of them are from the last two years or so). What's the third?
I don't think there is a third one, yet. However, watch out for Liza Ferschtman, yet another young Dutch female violinist who is really something with a violin under her chin. Her Beethoven / Schubert CD has just been released (Challenge Classics).
JANSEN JANINE Tchaikovsky, Ravel, Saint-Saens, John Williams, Vaughan Williams. Decca 4750112
Search www.mdt.co.uk
A new DVD as well:-
SCHEHERAZADE An Oriental Night with the Berliner Philharmoniker. Works by Grieg, Rimsky-Korsakow, Nielsen, Saint Saens, Massenet. Janine Jansen, Marita Solberg, Ingebjorg Kosmo, Berliner Philharmoniker / Neeme Jarvi. Euroarts DVD NTSC 2055318
Quote from: springrite on May 29, 2007, 05:05:40 AM
I have many recordings of this work, and several of which I return to often. But the one I like very much (most?) is one that hardly anyone ever mentions, namely, Kennedy/Tenstedt. It is a slower than usual performance, especially the first two movements, but works beautifully. After this one, the second movement of other recordings just don't seem to have the same effect on me.
Milstein is the other one I like the most.
Must agree, Paul, with Kennedy/Tennstedt. I know it's unfashionable to like Kennedy, but in this--as in the Bach ctos--I like the music making in spite of my prejudices.