Rafael Kubelik is a late discovery for me.
I got his BRSO/ Bruckner 4th recently and was mightily impressed.
(http://vagne.free.fr/images/bruckner42.jpg)
Please post your favourite Kubelik recordings or anything else you like to share about him.
Thanks! :)
Q
What timing!
I've just been revisiting his excellent set of the 9 Symphonies of Dvorak with the BPO
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/61K3GATW2VL._AA240_.gif)
Get his complete Mahler cycle w/ BRSO and you won't be disappointed either.
The words from a certain forum member, and many others as to "buy it at any price" for the Kubelik live Ma Vlast, on Supraphon were words of a knowing bunch!! I did, and it is...<superb>
Also mentioned are his stunning Bruckner 9th on Orfeo, the highly rated Das Lied with Kmentt & DJB, his Mahler 5th live on Audite and I do have the greatest admiration for his DG Mahler 8th.
Throw in his Dvorak 7/8/9 for good measure too!!
The Mahler 5th and the Das Lied on Audite.
Allan
Quote from: Florestan on June 11, 2007, 07:36:18 AM
Get his complete Mahler cycle w/ BRSO and you won't be disappointed either.
I may just do that. ;)
His Bruckner - 3rd (I can't make up my mind whether I prefer studio one on Sony or live one on Bells of St.Florian, both top of the line), 8th and 9th on Orfeo (8th is early 60s mono but that 9th is one of the most incredibly recorded live performance ever, kudos to Bavarian Radio technicians).
And million times mentioned live Das Lied with Baker and Kmentt.
Anyone heard his Concertgebouw Mahler 5 on Tahra?
Kubelik is one of the greats, and I have yet to hear any recordings by him that I don't like. I've not yet started investigating his live recorded legacy on Audite - those discs are supposed to have better performances than his studio recordings - so with that in mind:
Smetana - Ma Vlast (1990, Supraphon)
Berg - Violin Concerto
Dvorak - Symphonies (BPO, DG)
Mahler - Symphonies (DG)
Bartok - Concerto for Orchestra / Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta (Orfeo)
Schoenberg - Piano Concerto, Violin Concerto
Schumann - Symphonies (CBS/Sony)
Janacek - Sinfonietta (Testament)
Janacek - Glagolitic Mass (DG)
Schubert - Symphony 3 (IMG/EMI Great Conductors)
Wagner - Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
Wagner - Lohengrin
Weber - Der Freischutz
Weber - Oberon
and the Original Masters set devoted to him. There are others I'm forgetting.
Another vote for his BRSO Bruckner recordings.
#9 (Orfeo) is an all-time great, easily surpasses most popular recommendations.
#8 (Orfeo) is an earlier recording, faces stiff competition but well worth hearing.
#3 (Sony/studio and Bells of St Florian/live) are both top contenders, personally I think the studio one just gets it.
#4 (ditto) but here I think the live one takes the crown for extra sparkle and general oomph. Just a wonderful performance.
There's also a #4 with the VPO which DG are releasing on DVD this month. If it's the same performance as I have on a bootleg CD, then I think it's inferior to the BRSO ones (even allowing for the shockingly poor balance on the CD.)
Then there's the Mahler set... :D
Forgot to mention - how could I forget? It was even one of my Desert Island Discs (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1432.msg34925)! - my favourite Haydn Paukenmesse is - again - Kubelik with the BRSO. Still available on a cheap DG twofer, last time I looked.
the kubelik/chicago recordings on mercury are among my favorites!
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m/104-6404879-4283964?url=node%3D85&field-keywords=kubelik%2Fchicago&Go.x=11&Go.y=16&Go=Go
I second all the above recommendations and would also add a special double CD from the CSO broadcast archives which includes an incandescent Prelude and Liebestod, as well as Tombeau de Couperin, Walton's Belshazzar's Feast, a Dvorak 8 and otehr assorted stuff:
(http://www.cso.org/img/store/large/7544.jpg)
http://www.cso.org/main.taf?p=4,1,3,7,2&productid=7544
I'll happily second all of the praise for Kubelik's Mahler, Bruckner, Dvorak, and Smetana -- hard to go wrong with any of it.
Is anyone familiar with his Beethoven? I understand he did a symphony cycle for DG with 9 different orchestras, only some of which is still in print in the US. Worth seeking out?
Quote from: jwinter on June 11, 2007, 10:55:31 AM
Is anyone familiar with his Beethoven? I understand he did a symphony cycle for DG with 9 different orchestras, only some of which is still in print in the US. Worth seeking out?
To tell you the truth, I find it variable. Some of it is really inspired, some of it is a bit, well, thick and lethargic. I think the DG Kubelik original masters set contains what is probably the best of the lot. But! If you want to hear absolutely superlative orchestral work in the Beethoven violin concerto and how to perfectly acommpany the soloist, you should seek out the Testament reissue of the old Decca recording of the Beethoven VC with Ida Haendel and Kubelik with the Philharmonia. Haendel is not my favorite here, but Kubelik is unsurpassed as her accompanist.
Quote from: david johnson on June 11, 2007, 09:10:59 AM
the kubelik/chicago recordings on mercury are among my favorites!
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m/104-6404879-4283964?url=node%3D85&field-keywords=kubelik%2Fchicago&Go.x=11&Go.y=16&Go=Go
And that is another temptation.
Thanks, I think :-)
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 11, 2007, 07:36:53 AM
..........Also mentioned are his stunning Bruckner 9th on Orfeo.........
Agreed; a profound performance. 0:)
Does anyone know these Dvorak recordings (symf. 6-9) with the BRSO?
Q
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/3934984.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8257288.jpg)
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8257464.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8257297.jpg)
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 11, 2007, 07:36:53 AM
Also mentioned are his stunning Bruckner 9th on Orfeo, [and] the highly rated Das Lied with Kmentt & DJB...
These 2 for me.
Somone here in the earlier incarnation of the forum also highly praised Kubelik's Parisfal on Music & Arts. Would someone like to elaborate? I don't have this yet.
I can recommend his Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg on Calig with Thomas Stewart, Sandor Konya, Gundula Janowitz, Thomas Hemsley, Brigitte Fassbaender, Gerhard Unger, Franz Crass. Chor und Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks.
A dissenting opinion about his Mahler: except for the First, this is Mahler-Lite. He's way too fast; he skims the surface of the music, rarely digging into its depths. Baker may be even better for Kubelik than she was for Haitink, but Haitink is definitely my preferred conductor in Das Lied.
I endorse the positive comments about his Dvorak, Smetana, his superb Meistersinger and Freischütz. I'd like to add his great performances in the DG Hartmann symphony cycle.
Sarge
Everything that I've heard by Kubelik is grand.
His Mahler, his Brahms, his Berlioz, and we go on and on.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 01:22:12 PM
A dissenting opinion about his Mahler: except for the First, this is Mahler-Lite. He's way too fast; he skims the surface of the music, rarely digging into its depths. Baker may be even better for Kubelik than she was for Haitink, but Haitink is definitely my preferred conductor in Das Lied.
I disagree with that. He uncovers the folkloristic, but doesn't make it banal ever. And I would not say he's too fast. Boulez or Haitink are often faster. Kubelik's Mahler is unfussy, unmannerred, not over-emotive, but at the same time not super detatched analytic.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 01:22:12 PM
A dissenting opinion about his Mahler: except for the First, this is Mahler-Lite. He's way too fast; he skims the surface of the music, rarely digging into its depths. Baker may be even better for Kubelik than she was for Haitink, but Haitink is definitely my preferred conductor in Das Lied.
I endorse the positive comments about his Dvorak, Smetana, his superb Meistersinger and Freischütz. I'd like to add his great performances in the DG Hartmann symphony cycle.
Sarge
I also disagree about the Mahler. I do feel that better sounding and more exciting performances are found on his live cycle for Audite. While the play isn't as manicured as the studio recordings, there is so much more "edge" to the live performances. Definitely not Mahlerlite. It's just an incredibly expensive set to collect as there's no box set. The Mahler 8th is actually offered in an enhanced SACD/hybrid edition as well.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/bd/5b/852bb2c008a00481dab64010._AA_.L.jpg) (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/17/6/9/416.jpg)
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 11, 2007, 07:36:53 AM
The words from a certain forum member, and many others as to "buy it at any price" for the Kubelik live Ma Vlast, on Supraphon were words of a knowing bunch!! I did, and it is...<superb>
Also mentioned are his stunning Bruckner 9th on Orfeo, the highly rated Das Lied with Kmentt & DJB, his Mahler 5th live on Audite and I do have the greatest admiration for his DG Mahler 8th.
Throw in his Dvorak 7/8/9 for good measure too!!
This one?
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/a9/3f/03d6225b9da09dd72ca8d010.L.jpg)
Quote from: Bunny on June 11, 2007, 03:11:29 PM
This one?
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/a9/3f/03d6225b9da09dd72ca8d010.L.jpg)
Yes, though it has seen several incarnations
Quote from: O Mensch on June 11, 2007, 03:24:24 PM
Yes, though it has seen several incarnations
Tried Harnoncourt's Ma Vlast? ;)
Quote from: BorisG on June 11, 2007, 05:28:47 PM
Tried Harnoncourt's Ma Vlast? ;)
I am missing the joke here.
Quote from: O Mensch on June 11, 2007, 05:50:55 PM
I am missing the joke here.
That is because it is not a joke.
Quote from: BorisG on June 11, 2007, 05:55:04 PM
That is because it is not a joke.
This is a thread about Kubelik, not generally about recommendations for ma vlast. No, I have not tried Harnoncourt and I'm not that interested in this piece to shell out the money.
Kubelik's Mahler is more polite and less gripping than, say, Bernstein or Walter. I have two of the Audite's (Das Lied and 2). After listening to Kubelik's and Walter's DLVDE back to back, I found myself wishing for a Walter/Baker recording in good sound. That's not to say I regret buying the Kubelik, far from it. All it really means is that I like my Mahler on the intense side. It's too bad there is no No.4 in the Audite series.
Quote from: E d o on June 12, 2007, 08:50:22 AM
All it really means is that I like my Mahler on the intense side.
But we already know that what's intense for one might not be for another. Example: I always found the Ferrier / Walter on the flaccid side.
A lovely version of the music from Mendelssohn's Midsummer Night's Dream.
Plus a number of discs already mentioned.
Mike
Harnoncourt/RCA is a very fine Ma Vlast performance and sound, ranks near the top of available recordings.
The Kubelik/Supraphon Ma Vlast is fine but not my favorite version by him, done in his final years it is an old man's version reflecting on times past, polished elegant but lacking some drama. Compare that to his 1950 CSO version on Mercury, much more energy and drama, a younger mans vision with optimism and zest for life and all the future holds.........I prefer this to any of Kubeliks later versions
Dvorak by Kubelik is great across the board.
I really like his Mahler set especially the live Audite versions as Bunny says above, nicely captures the folk elements and can be exciting and dramatic when called for, sounds very balanced style wise to me. His weak link was Mahler 2nd, never could do a great version for some reason
Quote from: knight on June 12, 2007, 02:05:35 PM
A lovely version of the music from Mendelssohn's Midsummer Night's Dream.
That is included in the DG original masters set mentioned above, along with rehearsal excerpts.
Quote from: DarkAngel on June 12, 2007, 02:13:47 PM
The Kubelik/Supraphon Ma Vlast is fine but not my favorite version by him, done in his final years it is an old man's version reflecting on times past, polished elegant but lacking some drama. Compare that to his 1950 CSO version on Mercury, much more energy and drama, a younger mans vision with optimism and zest for life and all the future holds.........I prefer this to any of Kubeliks later versions
:o I beg to differ. There is tons of drama and the Czech PO are playing their heart out. It's a very special performance. The 50s Mercury CSO performance is also great, but of a different sort. Certainly his best studio version, preferrable over BSO and VPO.
My favorite Kubelik remains the old Vienna Philharmonic recordings for Decca, particularly the Dvorak 7/9.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/417KWVKBE6L._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: head-case on June 12, 2007, 03:11:00 PM
My favorite Kubelik remains the old Vienna Philharmonic recordings for Decca, particularly the Dvorak 7/9.
I have one half of a Brahms cycle he did around that time with the VPO for Decca but find it overly thick and unconvincing.
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 03:10:41 PM
:o I beg to differ. There is tons of drama and the Czech PO are playing their heart out. It's a very special performance. The 50s Mercury CSO performance is also great, but of a different sort. Certainly his best studio version, preferrable over BSO and VPO.
I keep both versions in collection of course (as I am sure many do), but the older Kubelik (supraphon) is more reflective of days past like recounting his youth with some longing for the old times. I get a different feeling when listening to CSO version, more forward optimistic looking
Quote from: head-case on June 12, 2007, 03:11:00 PM
My favorite Kubelik remains the old Vienna Philharmonic recordings for Decca, particularly the Dvorak 7/9.
You are right about the Decca Legends VPO 7/9........I just found this CD a couple years ago and it is an oustanding pairing. Very very close to surpassing the Kubeliks 1966 BPO DG Originals 9th which I still hold as my reference for Dvorak 9th, I would not argue with anyone who said it was best available recording
I have Kubelik's CSO Dvorak 9th also which comes in the 4CD Mercury Kubelik set, but prefer the DG Originals and Decca Legends performances
Quote from: sidoze on June 12, 2007, 09:58:29 AM
But we already know that what's intense for one might not be for another. Example: I always found the Ferrier / Walter on the flaccid side.
True, but flaccid, now that is a stretch.
I always have loved the Kubelik/Boston Symphony/Ma Vlast.
True its not as idiomatically authentic as his versions with the Czech Philharmonic. But his BSO recording was made prior to the poison of Leinsdorf and Ozawa. And the BSO plays so magnificently that words fail me. I was not pleased with the recording itself (engineering) when I played it on my old cd player. And thought that the deficiencies lay in the recording itself. But when I played that recording on my new machine, subtleties of phrasing, inner voices of the score, biplay between instruments, extraordinary solos from the first desk players in the BSO, and of course Kubeliks dedication to the music, all became clear to me.
No orchestra I've heard, plays that music as well as the BSO on that recording. And I've heard Kubelik give a performance of that music in Boston, and with the Cleveland Orchestra in Cleveland. The Czech performance (although emotion filled) can't hold a candle to the BSO recording for excellence in orchestral execution. Listen to it on a top-of-the-line cd player, and I have every confidence that if you are fair minded, you will agree.
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D1SRHC8PL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/40/405511.JPG) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FC3FXH56L._AA240_.jpg) (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/14/7/7/638.jpg)
There is a lot of Kubelik available in Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?category=0&genre=700&adv=1&keyword=kubelik).
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 03:27:10 PM
I have one half of a Brahms cycle he did around that time with the VPO for Decca but find it overly thick and unconvincing.
His Decca VPO recordings are not up to much. The Brahms cycle had Walter, Klemperer and Kempe to contend with, for starters, in the sixties. His Ma Vlast is poorly recorded by Decca standards at this time.
I prefer the Schumann he recorded for DG and the yet-to-be-surpassed set of the Dvorak tone poems.
He did a 'World Tour' of orchestras when he recorded his Beethoven cycle which, as I recall, received mixed reviews at the time.
Oh, forgot this one
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/315EKVA36VL._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Daverz on June 13, 2007, 02:52:11 AM
Oh, forgot this one
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/315EKVA36VL._AA240_.jpg)
Oh no, the biggest bomb in recorded history. Nothing wrong with the performance but the opera is terrible.
Yes, this is not a grateful to the ear or swift moving piece. I am afraid I gave it a couple of hearings from the library, years ago, and decided it was not for me.
Something of an endurance test.
Mike
Maybe we should have stress-tested Harry with Palestrina before sending him in to Boris? Make the latter seem a cakewalk.
Quote from: Drasko on June 11, 2007, 07:51:10 AM
His Bruckner - 3rd (I can't make up my mind whether I prefer studio one on Sony or live one on Bells of St.Florian, both top of the line), 8th and 9th on Orfeo (8th is early 60s mono but that 9th is one of the most incredibly recorded live performance ever, kudos to Bavarian Radio technicians).
And million times mentioned live Das Lied with Baker and Kmentt.
Anyone heard his Concertgebouw Mahler 5 on Tahra?
Yes, have it. And listened to it this evening to refresh my memory - listened to it only one time since I bought it a few months ago. My first impression was confirmed: I don't think this is the definitive Mahler 5th recording as
Tony Duggan (http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2002/Apr02/Mahler5_kubelik.htm) feels it is.
Compare this other comment by Robert E. Benson on ClassicalCDreview:
"Rafael Kubelik's Symphony No. 5, from a concert June 21, 1951, is of lesser interest. That day the Concertgebouw was not at its best. There are a number of horn mishaps, particularly exposed in the finale, that one doesn't expect from the famed Dutch orchestra which at the time was a world-class ensemble under Eduard van Beinum's stewardship. The sound is well-balanced mono, excellent for its vintage. The disk is issued "with kind permission of Mrs. Kubelik, the orchestra and NCRV" - probably most Concertgebouw collectors will wish to own it as well as admirers of Kubelik. The Czech conductor's DG complete set of Mahler symphonies with the Bavarian Radio Orchestra is no longer available - although a live performance of Symphony No. 5 with that orchestra dating from l981 is available on AUDITE 95465."I'm not that negative at all, I like Kubelik natural(istic), straight and unfussy approach. There are several "magical moments".But it's sometimes uneven in execution - and tension slips. And yes, there are also some mishaps in the orchestra. Kubelik doesn't bring this home in one piece, so to speak.
Also, I read about rather good sound. It is actually not that fine. I don't mind hiss and there are some sizzles that continue for a while, but more important is that the orchestra sounds very dim at times, with sound suddenly "opening up" again and sounding fine, only to return dim after a while. So, sound is uneven too.
That all being said, like it enough to try Kubelik's other live recording on Audite.
Just to give you my frame of reference: I also know & have the Haitink/Concertgebouw and the Walter/NYPO.
(http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2002/Apr02/Mahler5_Kubelik.jpg)
Q
Quote from: Que on June 19, 2007, 11:06:37 AM
Yes, have it. And listened to it this evening to refresh my memory - listened to it only one time since I bought it a few months ago. My first impression was confirmed: I don't think this is the definitive Mahler 5th recording as Tony Duggan (http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2002/Apr02/Mahler5_kubelik.htm) feels it is.
Thanks! I think I'll pass, just got Shipway's 5th and that should do for some time.
Quote from: Drasko on June 19, 2007, 11:19:02 AM
Thanks! I think I'll pass, just got Shipway's 5th and that should do for some time.
Did you get the Membran issue sacd hybrid. To tell you the truth there's not a great deal of difference between this and the older RPO issue.
A broad interpretation, in superb sound. One of the loveliest 'expanded' adagiettos ever committed. Evermore a little gem of a Mahler 5.
No caveats with this performance or recording....surefire winner.
Boy, even amongst some of Duggan's weird Mahler recommendations those for the 5th have to be the oddest: two historical recordings to start the list and then such non-mainstream recommendations such as Shipway, Gatti, Schwarz, Rattle, and Zander (of all people). Where is Karajan, possibly the most intense Mahler 5th featuring the monstrous basses and horns of the BPO. Those whipping horns in the Scherzo have to be heard to be believed. Can't believe Karajan didn't get on the list and Zander did.
The Rudolf Schwarz IMO deserves its place on the list, but come on, putting Rattle, Gatti, Zander in there at the expense of Karajan is high treason. From the looks of it any recording with an adagietto over 10 minutes gets the heave ho from TD ;D How can anyone say that the sound, balance, performance and intensity of Karajan is one step down from the likes of such an inferior performance from Zander?
Who'd be a critic ;D
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 19, 2007, 11:41:41 AM
The Rudolf Schwarz IMO deserves its place on the list, but come on, putting Rattle, Gatti, Zander in there at the expense of Karajan is high treason. From the looks of it any recording with an adagietto over 10 minutes gets the heave ho from TD ;D How can anyone say that the sound, balance, performance and intensity of Karajan is one step down from the likes of such an inferior performance from Zander?
Who'd be a critic ;D
Maybe Duggan hasn't heard the HVK M5 (unlikely) or maybe he has an axe to grind with him. Anyone who HAS heard that recording cann't but agree that it is a recording of immense power and little rhetoric. I am in general not a big HVK fan but in his Mahler recordings (the 5th, the 2 Ninths, and Ruckert Lieder and Kindertodenlieder) he is masterful, almost like he is born to conduct the music.
Throw in his immense 6th too, they are all wonderful representations and essential to anyones collection.
I must say I have always preferred the studio BPO 9th over the live 9th the following year, both top notch but the studio always grabbed me more, being IMO more indulgent & palatable although no where near as intense as the finale to the live recording.
You two might want to track down HVK's Salzburg 9th, apparently available for download from the Yahoo operashare group now. Word has it that it sweeps all before it :)
Quote from: sidoze on June 19, 2007, 11:55:15 AM
You two might want to track down HVK's Salzburg 9th, apparently available for download from the Yahoo operashare group now. Word has it that it sweeps all before it :)
Where's the link Tony ;D
You know I'm a luddite, who likes the one or dozen great freebies
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 19, 2007, 11:23:34 AM
Did you get the Membran issue sacd hybrid. To tell you the truth there's not a great deal of difference between this and the older RPO issue.
Yes Membran, tons of those Membran SACDs just hit local stores here and that was the only one ringing any bells. Is anything else from those RPO series interesting, there was Shipway's Shostakovich 10?
QuoteMaybe Duggan hasn't heard the HVK M5 (unlikely) or maybe he has an axe to grind with him
Word Karajan just doesn't exist in Duggan's vocabulary.
The Gorecki 3rd 'don't knock it' I like it ;D Is very well recorded and performed, sound exemplarary.
I don't know if Vernon Handley's RPO Planets is issued on Membran, that too is a really sonic spectacular
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 19, 2007, 11:59:13 AM
Where's the link Tony ;D
I'll try to get it. I'm not a member of operashare. It's for recording fanatics -- the number they put up each month is overwhelming.
Quote from: Drasko on June 19, 2007, 12:08:57 PM
Yes Membran, tons of those Membran SACDs just hit local stores here and that was the only one ringing any bells. Is anything else from those RPO series interesting, there was Shipway's Shostakovich 10?
Word Karajan just doesn't exist in Duggan's vocabulary.
Duggan also never saw a Mahler recording with a British conductor that he didn't drool over.
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 03:27:10 PM
I have one half of a Brahms cycle he did around that time with the VPO for Decca but find it overly thick and unconvincing.
I'm curious about Kubelik's Brahms symphonies - any other comments?
Q
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/31/19231.jpg)
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/415T430HNSL._AA240_.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EJ590FXYL._AA240_.jpg)
The VPO/Decca versions are strangely flaccid and recorded in rather muddied sound. I would avoid. I am not familiar with the BRSO versions.
Kubelik's DG Mahler is wonderfully fresh and lively, although his recording of 6 is is too fast and lacks drama in the finale. 1, 3 and 4 are especially fine, and I've got a soft spot for 2 and 9. His last, legendary recording of Smetana's Ma Vlast should be (and probably is) in everybody's collection. His recording of Schoenberg's Gurrelieder is excellent, even if the DG recording doesn't always convey the scale of the forces involved.
I don't think that anybody here has mentioned the appalling treatment he endured at the hands of acid-penned critic Claudia Cassidy, who slagged off practically every performance Kubelik conducted in Chicago, eventually driving him from the city. How did such a vile and ignorant woman come to have such power? She was a useless critic. Calling Janacek's Taras Bulba "trash" was bad enough, but referring to Bartok's seminal Music for String Percussion and Celesta as a "potboiler" should have ensured her immediate dismissal with a boot print on her arse. Cassidy was clearly a demented bitch, the Ann Coulter of her day, who enjoyed insulting people for the sake of it, and her treatment of Kubelik was shameful. The people of Chicago have shown a complete lack of taste in naming a theatre after this idiot. It should be renamed the Rafael Kubelik Theatre in honour of the great artist whose American career she destroyed.
Quote from: MDL on June 21, 2007, 01:58:05 AM
It should be renamed the Rafael Kubelik Theatre on honour of the great artist whose American career she destroyed.
We still have some of his CSO recordings though (for download).
All files are 192Kbps MP3 LAME
Kubelik-CSO 1 (Bloch Concerto Grosso 1 & Brahms Sym 1)
http://rapidshare.com/files/29718505/Kubelik-CSO_1.rar.html
Kubelik-CSO 2. (Mozart 34 & Tchaikovsky 4)
http://rapidshare.com/files/30295574/Kubelik-CSO_2.rar.html
Kubelik-CSO3 (Tchaikovsky 6)
http://rapidshare.com/files/30835201/Kubelik-CSO_3.rar.html
I forgot to mention Kubelik's Missa Solemnis on Orfeo.
And a 1980 performance with the CSO of Bartok's MfSPC.
http://rapidshare.com/files/30179908/MfSPC-Kubelik-CSO-Nov1980.rar
And a CSO Ma Vlast from 1983
http://rapidshare.com/files/19531588/Kubelik_CSO_Ma_Vlast_1984.zip
"I forgot to mention Kubelik's Missa Solemnis on Orfeo."
Sidoze, can you tell me more about this? I am a sucker for the piece, but do not know this recording at all.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 21, 2007, 02:18:46 AM
Sidoze, can you tell me more about this? I am a sucker for the piece, but do not know this recording at all.
Mike
I can't sorry. First of all I no longer have it. Secondly I'm not good with words. And thirdly I never liked the work all that much (my concentration span ends fai. It's a beautiful recording though, live and in good sound (on 2 CDs I recall). Very sweet violin solo too. I've heard Klemperer (EMI), Karajan and Bernstein, and this was my favourite one.
Quote from: MDL on June 21, 2007, 01:58:05 AM
.
I don't think that anybody here has mentioned the appalling treatment he endured at the hands of acid-penned critic Claudia Cassidy, who slagged off practically every performance Kubelik conducted in Chicago, eventually driving him from the city. How did such a vile and ignorant woman come to have such power? She was a useless critic. Calling Janacek's Taras Bulba "trash" was bad enough, but referring to Bartok's seminal Music for String Percussion and Celesta as a "potboiler" should have ensured her immediate dismissal with a boot print on her arse.
Certainly Cassidy was way off base in deriding Kubeliks work. But the fact is that Kubelik must have somehow alienated every other Chicago critic. Because as far as I know nobody came to his defense in opposition to her.
However as far as her judgements of Taras Bulba and Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste are concerned I think she was slightly off base. I don't think they're good enough to be called "potboilers" (in the manner of Verdi). She should have called them plain ol' soporifically boring.
Sidoze, Thanks anyway.
Iago, Thanks also for the laugh....vintage stuff.
Mike
Quote from: Iago on June 21, 2007, 01:31:47 PM
However as far as her judgements of Taras Bulba and Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste are concerned I think she was slightly off base. I don't think they're good enough to be called "potboilers" (in the manner of Verdi). She should have called them plain ol' soporifically boring.
Perhaps you'd be happier contributing to the Justin Timberlake forum.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 13, 2007, 04:19:54 AM
Oh no, the biggest bomb in recorded history. Nothing wrong with the performance but the opera is terrible.
I haven't paid much attention to the libretto, I've just listened to it as gorgeous symphonic music with voices.
Quote from: Iago on June 21, 2007, 01:31:47 PM
Certainly Cassidy was way off base in deriding Kubeliks work. But the fact is that Kubelik must have somehow alienated every other Chicago critic. Because as far as I know nobody came to his defense in opposition to her.
What other critics? The other problem rather was that he was a relative unknown and the board wanted someone more famous. So they didn't support him either and took Cassidy's indictments as proof that he should be replaced, since they thenselves lacked any sound musical judgment as well.
Quote from: Iago on June 21, 2007, 01:31:47 PMHowever as far as her judgements of Taras Bulba and Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste are concerned I think she was slightly off base. I don't think they're good enough to be called "potboilers" (in the manner of Verdi). She should have called them plain ol' soporifically boring.
You should see her comments about Mahler's 5th. ::)
What did she write about Mahler?
BTW, I am not very familiar with the whole Cassidy story, but I understand that the main problem she had with Kubelik was that he introduced a lot of "new" music and she didn't like that. Like the mentioned pieces by Bartók and Janáček - BTW, both breathtaking masterpieces in my humble opinion. I listened to Taras Bulba again recently and was again very impressed by the incredible originality and how strikingly expressive Janáček's musical language is.
Quote from: MDL on June 21, 2007, 01:58:05 AM
Kubelik's DG Mahler is wonderfully fresh and lively, although his recording of 6 is is too fast and lacks drama in the finale. 1, 3 and 4 are especially fine, and I've got a soft spot for 2 and 9. His last, legendary recording of Smetana's Ma Vlast should be (and probably is) in everybody's collection. His recording of Schoenberg's Gurrelieder is excellent, even if the DG recording doesn't always convey the scale of the forces involved.
I don't think that anybody here has mentioned the appalling treatment he endured at the hands of acid-penned critic Claudia Cassidy, who slagged off practically every performance Kubelik conducted in Chicago, eventually driving him from the city. How did such a vile and ignorant woman come to have such power? She was a useless critic. Calling Janacek's Taras Bulba "trash" was bad enough, but referring to Bartok's seminal Music for String Percussion and Celesta as a "potboiler" should have ensured her immediate dismissal with a boot print on her arse. Cassidy was clearly a demented bitch, the Ann Coulter of her day, who enjoyed insulting people for the sake of it, and her treatment of Kubelik was shameful. The people of Chicago have shown a complete lack of taste in naming a theatre after this idiot. It should be renamed the Rafael Kubelik Theatre in honour of the great artist whose American career she destroyed.
What a glorious turn of phrase. ;D
Business took me to Princeton on Wednesday, and I picked up Kubelik's Sony Schumann symphony set for a song. Looking forward to checking it out this weekend... :)
Kubelík also recorded the Schumann symphonies for DG with the BP. I have both sets. Maybe one of these recordings is included in Mystery Orchestra 18? Or maybe not.
Quote from: M forever on July 13, 2007, 07:02:42 AM
Kubelík also recorded the Schumann symphonies for DG with the BP. I have both sets. Maybe one of these recordings is included in Mystery Orchestra 18? Or maybe not.
I listened to both sets back to back the other day and boy they are awfully similar. The SONY sounds clearer and the BRSO sounds a little crisper and more lucid than the BPO but a week from now if you give me a blind listen I don't think I can tell the two sets apart.
Quote from: O Mensch on June 11, 2007, 11:57:54 AM
Somone here in the earlier incarnation of the forum also highly praised Kubelik's Parisfal on Music & Arts. Would someone like to elaborate? I don't have this yet.
I offered this advice to another member (who shall, unless s/he specifically tells me otherwise, remain anonymous): the choices for
Parsifal come down to two recordings. Either Hans Knappertsbusch's 1962 Bayreuth recording on Philips or Rafael Kubelík's 1980 recording on Arts Archive, and it's a matter of taste between them. To my ears, it is
really that simple. Kubelík's recording, if I have my story straight, was shelved by Deutsche Grammophon. If you look at the dates, this record should have come out at roughly the same time as Herbert von Karajan's. The assertion has been made that Kubelík's was mothballed in favor of the more-famous conductor's. I don't offer any sort of confirmation or denial.
In any event, Kubelík's set is probably the best post-Knappertsbusch set you could want. The singers are uniformly excellent (with James King and Kurt Moll being standouts in this recording), and the BRSO forces play marvelously. This is just good, idiomatic Wagner: Kubelík doesn't rush things (taking marginally more time than even Knappertsbusch), but things don't seem slow. Orchestrally, I'd say that Kubelík's recording bests Thielemann's, which really revels in the score itself. This recording, had it been released at the time, probably would have been the
the set for the 1980s and 1990s. In fact, it would probably be in its second or third incarnation by now.
PS, Interesting story about Kubelik's recording being shelved. That is exactly what happened to his Meistersingers recording, DG went with the Jochum highlighting Fischer Dieskau's Hans Sachs. Good as it may be the Kubelik, which has now been available on at least two labels recently, is by a margin the best I know of. An all round excellent cast and the sound simply glows.
I don't have access to the recording at the moment, just moved house, but I seem to recall it was recorded at a concert, so all the virtues of a live performance, but no galumphing stage noises.
Mike
Interesting stories indeed. I have no information about this at all (in fact, I had never heard about it before), but I am wondering why DG would have made these recordings if they didn't plan to release them and had other studio productions lined up around the same time.
You know, these things don't happen spontaneously like "hey, let's record Parsifal tomorrow - OK, cool, why not" and then "oops, you know what, didn't we just record that last week - man, yes, I remember now, too, now we two recordings, let's shelve one".
They take a lot of planning and preparation and booking the artists, often 2 years or so in advance. Sure, record companies sometimes do sit on recordings for various reasons, but why didn't release DG them simply a few years later, especially since then the major labels really flooded the market with new recordings and CD releases of older ones?
Plus such projects cost a lot of money. I don't think DG just forgot they had them. It's also not typical for DG to "sell off" their recordings to other labels either. If they think there is a market for it, they re-release them themselves, otherwise, they just continue to sit on them (unfortunately).
knight said the Parsifal is a live recording, so it appears more likely that the BR just taped a live concert performance (they have a habit of doing that since it's a radio station) than that it was actually produced by DG. Maybe there is some connection there after all, maybe the BR offered it to DG but they declined because they had the HvK coming up. They sometimes, but very rarely, release recordings made by someone else. The BR logo on the label also points to that it is likely this was just an original BR production, maybe a live concert recording.
But again, I am just speculating here, I have no other information. It would be interesting though to find out the "truth".
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 13, 2007, 05:53:32 PM
Kubelík's recording, if I have my story straight, was shelved by Deutsche Grammophon. If you look at the dates, this record should have come out at roughly the same time as Herbert von Karajan's. The assertion has been made that Kubelík's was mothballed in favor of the more-famous conductor's. I don't offer any sort of confirmation or denial.
I'm pinched for time so out of necessity this will be brief...
The Kubelik Meistersinger was not originally a DG product. Bavarian Radio is responsible for recording it. They then approached DG about releasing it but were turned down.
The rumor mill is filled with stories speculating why DG snubbed such a fine recording. One of them being Knight's assertion that Fischer-Dieskau had penciled himself in as the next Sachs on disc and wanted "rights".
Sorry - must rush off...
Quote from: knight on July 13, 2007, 11:11:30 PM
PS, Interesting story about Kubelik's recording being shelved. That is exactly what happened to his Meistersingers recording, DG went with the Jochum highlighting Fischer Dieskau's Hans Sachs. Good as it may be the Kubelik, which has now been available on at least two labels recently, is by a margin the best I know of. An all round excellent cast and the sound simply glows.
I don't have access to the recording at the moment, just moved house, but I seem to recall it was recorded at a concert, so all the virtues of a live performance, but no galumphing stage noises.
Mike
Is this the
Meistersinger or the
Parsifal? The latter is indeed a studio recording, as Arts Archive makes a point of saying on the back, done in May 1980 in the Munich
Herkulessaal. The
Parsifal also lacks audience noises, which even the quietest audience makes sooner or later, so I am not inclined to think that it was a concert taping situation. It does, though, look like a BR production. More complexity.
Again, I have no idea why this sat in the vaults for 23 years (1980 to the 2003 copyright date), but something doesn't quite add up in all of this.
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 13, 2007, 05:53:32 PM
I offered this advice to another member (who shall, unless s/he specifically tells me otherwise, remain anonymous): the choices for Parsifal come down to two recordings. Either Hans Knappertsbusch's 1962 Bayreuth recording on Philips or Rafael Kubelík's 1980 recording on Arts Archive, and it's a matter of taste between them. To my ears, it is really that simple. Kubelík's recording, if I have my story straight, was shelved by Deutsche Grammophon. If you look at the dates, this record should have come out at roughly the same time as Herbert von Karajan's. The assertion has been made that Kubelík's was mothballed in favor of the more-famous conductor's. I don't offer any sort of confirmation or denial.
In any event, Kubelík's set is probably the best post-Knappertsbusch set you could want. The singers are uniformly excellent (with James King and Kurt Moll being standouts in this recording), and the BRSO forces play marvelously. This is just good, idiomatic Wagner: Kubelík doesn't rush things (taking marginally more time than even Knappertsbusch), but things don't seem slow. Orchestrally, I'd say that Kubelík's recording bests Thielemann's, which really revels in the score itself. This recording, had it been released at the time, probably would have been the the set for the 1980s and 1990s. In fact, it would probably be in its second or third incarnation by now.
Record companies make decisions about which performances they will promote and which they will allow to molder in the can all the time. Another conductor who ended up suffering as a result of such a decision was Gary Bertini. For years EMI shelved his Mahler cycle in favor of Tennstedt's and Rattle's. Not until after he was dead did they come round to issuing his Mahler, and then only in a well designed budget priced box set (which also had its share of production and quality control problems). I wonder whose Mahler sells better nowadays...
Back in the late 50s through the 60s, Karajan was THE superstar of the classical world. I still have the Life Magazine Warren Report issue -- Zapruder tape stills and all; turn the page after that article (written by Gerald Ford, no less) and the first eye catching thing you see are photos of Karajan and his wife in bikinis in their yacht on the Mediterranean. Karajan regularly was featured in Life and Paris Match, and I'll bet in the German equivalent of those magazines as well. I haven't seen a picture of a conductor in a bathing suit before or since. It doesn't surprise me that they would kill the Kubelik in favor of the Karajan. Karajan was just so much more marketable.
Except that we figured out in the meantime that nothing was "killed" here for Karajan. The productions happened anyway, they simply didn't have anything to do at first with DG and DG didn't feel there was enough room in their catalog for them at that time. Plus DG were always extremely reluctant to "buy" recordings they hadn't made themselves, from anybody with anybody.
Yes, we know, Karajan was in the NSDAP and that means he was totaly evil blablabla, and then the old Nazi "killed" Kubelik, what a catastrophy. And total nonsense, of course.
You don't seem to be aware of the fact that Kubelik was one of DG's big stars for decades, nothing he did was "killed" in favor of Karajan. DG apparently found Kubelik very marketable; they produced a lot of recordings with him and while I am not aware of any pictures of him in a bathing suit, DG heavily supported him in many big projects, including really big projects such as recording a complete Mahler cycle with him and even investing in less potentially selling big projects such as recording repertoire like "Gurrelieder" or all the Hartmann symphonies. And they did a complete Beethoven cycle with him at roughly the same time as Karajan, Böhm, and Bernstein.
And literally dozens of other recording projects with Kubelik. So it is not exactly like they didn't take him seriously enough.
The Bertini cycle wasn't "shelved" either, neither in favor of anybody, nor at all. The recordings all came out one by one on EMI whe they were made. And Bertini was still very much alive then - I saw him a number of times with the WDR and the BP. You can easily check that by looking up the recordings on amazon.de, it still shows them all and in which year they were first released.
So, sorry, no big anti-Bertini conspiracy there either. Maybe they didn't come out where you live, but that may have completely different reasons. Maybe EMI didn't feel they wouldn't sell in the US since everyone knows you have the greatest orchestras and superstar conductors of the entire universe right there, so who would have bought recordings by a "provincial" orchestra and a "non-superstar" anyway? Or maybe they did - if you check amazon.com, you can see several of the recordings were released in the US as well, apparently. Although they didn't sell at in the US back then, probably for above reasons.
I was only referring to the Meistersinger, not the Parsifal. I now have my hands on the set. It is not specific beyond dating the performance in Munich in 1967. What I read was that DGG had the rights and prevented the issue of the discs as DFD made it a stipulation in order to reduce the competition against the performance he was recording.
This seemingly is why there was an extreme delay in issuing what is a highly regarded performance. I believe the first issue of the performance was on MYTO in 1992.
Mike
Quote from: M forever on July 14, 2007, 12:59:31 PM
Except that we figured out in the meantime that nothing was "killed" here for Karajan. The productions happened anyway, they simply didn't have anything to do at first with DG and DG didn't feel there was enough room in their catalog for them at that time. Plus DG were always extremely reluctant to "buy" recordings they hadn't made themselves, from anybody with anybody.
Yes, we know, Karajan was in the NSDAP and that means he was totaly evil blablabla, and then the old Nazi "killed" Kubelik, what a catastrophy. And total nonsense, of course.
You don't seem to be aware of the fact that Kubelik was one of DG's big stars for decades, nothing he did was "killed" in favor of Karajan. DG apparently found Kubelik very marketable; they produced a lot of recordings with him and while I am not aware of any pictures of him in a bathing suit, DG heavily supported him in many big projects, including really big projects such as recording a complete Mahler cycle with him and even investing in less potentially selling big projects such as recording repertoire like "Gurrelieder" or all the Hartmann symphonies. And they did a complete Beethoven cycle with him at roughly the same time as Karajan, Böhm, and Bernstein.
And literally dozens of other recording projects with Kubelik. So it is not exactly like they didn't take him seriously enough.
The Bertini cycle wasn't "shelved" either, neither in favor of anybody, nor at all. The recordings all came out one by one on EMI whe they were made. And Bertini was still very much alive then - I saw him a number of times with the WDR and the BP. You can easily check that by looking up the recordings on amazon.de, it still shows them all and in which year they were first released.
So, sorry, no big anti-Bertini conspiracy there either. Maybe they didn't come out where you live, but that may have completely different reasons. Maybe EMI didn't feel they wouldn't sell in the US since everyone knows you have the greatest orchestras and superstar conductors of the entire universe right there, so who would have bought recordings by a "provincial" orchestra and a "non-superstar" anyway? Or maybe they did - if you check amazon.com, you can see several of the recordings were released in the US as well, apparently. Although they didn't sell at in the US back then, probably for above reasons.
What are you babbling about, M? Who has said anything about Nazis except you? Are you going into Austro-Prussian paranoiac overdrive or something? I was talking purely about the logic behind the merchandising of classical music, not the relative merits of anyone. And, it's pretty clear that EMI found itself with one Mahler set too many to sell and they felt that Rattle and Tennstedt would be more profitable so the Bertini set was kept back for years. It's sad that they did that, but no one is suggesting that it was the result of anything other than a recording company flac's boneheaded marketing call, not any conspiracy to hurt Gary Bertini. And, if the Bertini set was widely available in Europe (and the complete set was not available) then please explain the amazingly high prices the used recordings commanded? They were briefly released in small numbers without much promotion, and allowed to go oop which is why they were so sought after.
As to whether DG decided to delay something by Kubelik, the truth is that these decisions are not made based on the quality of the music nor the religion of the conductor. They aren't made as part of any vast conspiracy to hurt one conductor or help another. These decisions aren't made by people who are trying to increase the cultural legacy of Western Civilization either. They are made by people looking only at the bottom line. Every time a high quality recording goes out of print, you can be sure that it's purely a marketing decision. Delaying the release of a recording is also determined by estimations of what the market will handle at what price, and the amount of profit it will generate, and also by whether the release will cause another, possibly more expensive project to lose money. You can bet your bottom dollar that at some point if DG were offered the tapes of the Kubelik Wagner they could very well have said, we can't handle it right now because we have other Wagner projects that we are committed to (or rather that they had already sunk money into). The fact is that no one seems to have felt that those recordings would be profitable, or that they would have affected the profits on other things because they weren't put out for years.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that I was discussing anything other than money. And you should apologize for pulling the nazi card out of your sleeve when it wasn't even in the deck. And you might as well admit that Karajan was a genius at self-promotion. I know there are people who think that he had nothing to do with the hordes of women who followed him around like groupies after a rock star, but he
chose to allow beefcake pictures published of himself. He knew that it fed his adoring public and gave him leverage in negotiating contracts and especially selling recordings. Just look at his discography, who has more recordings than him? That didn't happen because he was the greatest conductor who ever lived, it happened because he was a genius at marketing himself.
Quote from: knight on July 14, 2007, 02:14:44 PM
I was only referring to the Meistersinger, not the Parsifal. I now have my hands on the set. It is not specific beyond dating the performance in Munich in 1967. What I read was that DGG had the rights and prevented the issue of the discs as DFD made it a stipulation in order to reduce the competition against the performance he was recording.
This seemingly is why there was an extreme delay in issuing what is a highly regarded performance. I believe the first issue of the performance was on MYTO in 1992.
Mike
Mike, this answer wasn't directed at you, but I like what you have written because it is pertinent to the discussion, rather that drivel about nazis.
The tale of the Kubelik Meistersinger is indeed convoluted.
I first came to know this recording in the early 90's when I bought it on Myto (it's first release). Been a huge fan ever since.
At that time critic William Youngren reviewed the recording in the pages of Fanfare. It impressed him greatly.
However, his review left many unanswered questions, though it's impossible to fault him for this, of course. Info was sketchy and Myto apparently was little help.
What transpired after that Fanfare review is eye-opening, however. Seems Mr. Youngren's dilemma sparked the intrest of a few fans of the recording and soon info started trickling in to the mag in the form of reader correspondence. Youngren subsequently related what readers had written in the "Critics' Corner" portion of the mag. This went on for a few months spanning three issues.
The correspondence is enlightening enough so rather than summarize it all I offer it here verbatim (along with a Youngren gaff, as well as slightly edited for clarity) so that those of us who are interested are able to draw some conclusions of our own.
Fanfare, Volume 16, No. 6 - July/August, 1993.
Mr. Youngren writes:
"I have recently received partial answers to questions that puzzled me in two reviews written for this journal.
The first question concerns the splendid Die Meistersinger, conducted by Rafael Kubelik and issued by Myto, that I reviewed in Fanfare 16:4.
As I said in my review, the words 'Registrazione dal vivo' on the jewel box led me to expect a broadcast of a stage performance. But then there were no stage or audience noises, and the stereo sound was simply too good. Nor could it have been taken down from an FM tuner since there was no radio noise. I thus concluded: 'Plainly, what we have here is an in-house, direct-line tape of either a broadcast or what was intended to be a commercially recorded studio Meistersinger but for some reason never made it.'
I suppose I mentioned the possibility of its being an unissued commercial studio performance second because that seemed the more remote of the two possibilities. But it apparently turns out to be the true one - or, rather, they both turn out to be true. My Fanfare colleague Marc Mandel has very kindly sent me a clipping from Classical Express, which I gather is a sort of newsletter distributed by London's Music Discount Centre. Reviewing the Kubelik Meistersinger, the excellent critic Michael Tanner writes: 'In 1967 Bavarian Radio recorded Die Meistersinger and DG committed it to LP; a very limited number of sets were pressed, and a very celebrated baritone with aspiration to singing Hans Sachs managed to stop things there.' Wow!
I name no names, I make no accusations. But consider for a moment who fits the description. Who was, in 1967, (1) 'a very celebrated baritone' who had (2) 'aspirations to singing Hans Sachs,' and was also (3) an important DG recording artist who would thus (4) have had enough clout to force the suppression of a superb recording that must already have cost the company [Youngren mistakenly assumes the recording is DG's, here - more on that below] hundreds of thousands of dollars? [Snip]"
Fanfare, Volume 17, No.3 - January/February 1994.
"I have one more - perhaps final - note concerning the splendid 1967 Kubelik Meistersinger that I reviewed in Fanfare 16:4. As I said in a 'Critics' Corner' entry in Fanfare 16:6, my colleague Marc Mandel sent me a review of the recording from the English journal Classical Express in which the critic Michael Tanner had written: 'In 1967 Bavarian Radio recorded Die Meistersinger and DG committed it to LP; a very limited number of sets were pressed, and a very celebrated baritone with aspiration to singing Sachs managed to stop things there.'
What puzzled me about this story was how any baritone, celebrated or otherwise, could (as I put it) 'have had enough clout to force the suppression of a superb recording that must already have cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars.' But my puzzlement was all my own fault: I had not paid careful enough attention to Tanner's remarks.
Recently Mr. Michael Walker, of Harrow, Middlesex, sent me a fuller version of the same tale. Mr Walker writes as follows:
'Thomas Hemsley (the Beckmesser)...remarked that the recording was set up and made by Bavarian Radio in Munich during October 1967 in order to commemorate the centenary of the opera's premiere in 1868. Seven days were originally set aside for the project but such was the ease and speed with which the whole opera was recorded that the sessions took just four days... Initially DG expressed definite interest in wishing to release the opera for commercial sale. However, a potential rival Hans Sachs then told the company he wished to record the work at a future date. Hemsley stated that the company concerned were somewhat shame-faced by their backdown, so much so that all the members of the cast were presented with a specially pressed-up set.'
The greater fullness of Mr. Walker's account caused me to see what I had missed in Tanner's [account]: that the original instigator of the recording was not DG but rather Bavarian Radio. [Snip] There was no question of DG losing 'hundreds of thousands of dollars' or, indeed, any previously invested capital. The recording would have been paid for by Bavarian Radio, i.e., by Bavarian state funds. DG saw a good opportunity, moved in, and then were called off by their 'celebrated baritone'."
Fanfare, Volume 17, No. 4 - March/April 1994.
"A recent letter, from a correspondent who is an opera conductor and thus has many connections in the opera world, casts further light on the question of why the splendid 1967 Kubelik Meistersinger that I reviewed in Fanfare 16:4 had never been previously released.
After expressing doubts that the 'celebrated baritone' who is usually held responsible for blocking the planned DG issue of this Meistersinger would have done such a thing - 'unpleasant character as he is' - my correspondent told a quite different story. He was told by Thomas Stewart, the Sachs of the performance, that an elderly DG executive, 'in his mentality an absolute Nazi,' had been the one who blocked the release. This man objected to a major German national opera being issued on the biggest German label in a performance conducted by a Czech and featuring singers from Hungary, England, and the United States.
Certainly this makes still more sense that the various preceding accounts I have received. Any further corrections or additions?"
What an interesting story, and a story that sheds some light on the Parsifal recording's history. I'm not sure which explanation makes the most sense, as I don't have a good feel how Meistersinger fits into the cultural pantheon of Germany (as defined by the cultural élite, as opposed to most Germans). The problem, though, as I see it, with the "primary" explanation is the chronology. Kubelík's recording was made and withheld in 1967 (or, given the October date, 1968); Fischer-Dieskau didn't record the rôle until 1976 under Jochum. I understand the costs associated with making and marketing records, to say nothing of recording them, makes it untenable to turn out one after another, but nine years? That seems like a pretty good non-compete time period, especially with the star power in the later record. I don't know. It seems complicated and slightly mysterious. Obviously, Kubelík wasn't too interested in clearing things up, which makes it more of a mystery - as he was one of the few people in a position to do so.
Such strange goings on.
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 14, 2007, 08:35:57 PM
Obviously, Kubelík wasn't too interested in clearing things up, which makes it more of a mystery - as he was one of the few people in a position to do so.
Or maybe he wasn't. After the experience of how internal politics killed his career in Chicago, he quite possibly didn't want to get involved in any way that could jeopardize his long-term relationship with either his orchestra (which by all accounts he loved very dearly) or his record company.
Quote from: O Mensch on July 14, 2007, 09:16:02 PM
Or maybe he wasn't. After the experience of how internal politics killed his career in Chicago, he quite possibly didn't want to get involved in any way that could jeopardize his long-term relationship with either his orchestra (which by all accounts he loved very dearly) or his record company.
Indeed. His seeming silence on the matter seems to indicate a willingness to let sleeping dogs lie, for whatever reason.
'Mysterious' is a good word for it (PSmith's above reference).
Searching for some clarity I went to ClassicToday hoping for some insight.
Jed Distler in his ClassicsToday (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=3928)review of the (second??) Myto release credits 'contractual problems' as the source for the delay/suppression/cancellation.
Doesn't help much...
However, befitting the muddled history of this recording Distler in his review makes a gaff when he credits Calig as the first to issue this recording. That's incorrect. Myto was the first.
Seems either the original Myto issue came really late to ClassicsToday or Myto simply reissued it again after all these years, possibly in concurrence with Calig, who came on the scene only later (but before Arts Music).
And, lo, Hurwitz propagates Distler's gaff in his review (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=6956) of the Arts Music issue...!
Some hoo-doo involved in this recording!
Don, Thanks for all of the info. It is suggested that DFD would not have been involved due to the dates being wide apart. I seem to recall that DFD had distinct doubts about singing the role and somewhere I read that he was prepared to record it, but not to perform it on stage. The indecision went on for some time and then there was a delay simply because of schedules.
I am not determined to paint DFD as the villain. We are all a victim of what we are told, or what we read, unless we were there. However, there are various tales of artists blocking other artists and of them taking an inordinate time to become committed to a project.
DFD did work with Kubelik, I don't know if any joint engagements post-date this issue, but then, despite what goes on behind the scenes, people often just have to get on with things.
Mike
Quote from: Bunny on July 14, 2007, 03:47:33 PM
What are you babbling about, M? Who has said anything about Nazis except you? Are you going into Austro-Prussian paranoiac overdrive or something? I was talking purely about the logic behind the merchandising of classical music, not the relative merits of anyone. And, it's pretty clear that EMI found itself with one Mahler set too many to sell and they felt that Rattle and Tennstedt would be more profitable so the Bertini set was kept back for years.
The babbling is all on your side. And *you* did just a day or two ago inform us that "Karajan was clearly in bed with Hitler", showing that you are as uninformed about the facts there as you are here. Based on your obvious biases and on your general tendency to make grandiose statements based on just superficial information, as we have seen in the recent HIP thread, your nonsense about Karajan and Hitler, and again here, it is no surprise at all that you immediately jumped to the conclusion that it must somehow be Karajan's fault that a Kubelik recording did not get released. That is obviously total nonsense and completely contradicted by the hard facts which show that Kubelik was one of DG's most favored recording artists in general.
Just like your statement that EMI obviously "shelved" Bertini's Mahler cycle was completely wrong, too, as you admitted in the meantime, not without some massive and rather comical attempts to backpedal and find other explanations for the evil conspiracy against Bertini. The obvious question why they recorded a complete Mahler cycle with him then in the first place remains completely unanswered, of course.
Quote from: Bunny on July 14, 2007, 03:47:33 PM
Don't make the mistake of thinking that I was discussing anything other than money. And you should apologize for pulling the nazi card out of your sleeve when it wasn't even in the deck.
Why should I apologize for that? It is totally obvious that that is what is the basis for your biases against Karajan, as the idiotic (and untrue) stuff you said about him and Hitler clearly showed, really is. And look, the "Nazi wildcard" is all over the place anyway, as it is soooooo convenient to explain literally everything connected to German and Austrian people:
Quote from: donwyn on July 14, 2007, 08:09:51 PM
After expressing doubts that the 'celebrated baritone' who is usually held responsible for blocking the planned DG issue of this Meistersinger would have done such a thing - 'unpleasant character as he is' - my correspondent told a quite different story. He was told by Thomas Stewart, the Sachs of the performance, that an elderly DG executive, 'in his mentality an absolute Nazi,' had been the one who blocked the release. This man objected to a major German national opera being issued on the biggest German label in a performance conducted by a Czech and featuring singers from Hungary, England, and the United States.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Yes, that makes total sense, especially because the same Nazi label had that same Czech conductor make tons of recordings for them, including a lot of major German repertoire. Didn't that very same Mr Stewart also sing Wotan, the highest of Germanic gods, in the Ring, the most majorly Germanic opera repertoire there is, for the same label at the same time? Or was that suddenly OK then with the Nazi executives because that old Nazi Karajan, Hitler's best friend, conducted? Yes, that must be it ::)
Man, there is so much bullshit flying around here, I need to get an umbrella.
Quote from: Bunny on July 14, 2007, 03:47:33 PM
And you might as well admit that Karajan was a genius at self-promotion.
Why sould I "admit" that? I never said something to the contrary. I know that, but I don't care, unlike you who seems to be very fascinated with these things. Hmmmmm...I wonder why...maybe because you yourself are so impressed with superficial clichés and all that stuff?
Nobody ever denied that Karajan hyped himself and was hyped, so what? He was an extremely competent conductor, and those times wanted such superstars, he was one of the few people who fit that role.
As did Bernstein, who was no less hyped and, in his very different style, hyped himself just as intensely as Karajan did. I think there are picture of him in a bathing suit, too. I have even seen him myself in swimming trunks, conducting with a cigarette during rehearsals at the Schleswig-Holstein Musik Festival. What dos all that have to do with the artistic content? For me, nothing. For you, who is so fascinated by such things, it seems to be veeeeery important.
Quote from: M forever on July 15, 2007, 04:23:41 AM
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Yes, that makes total sense, especially because the same Nazi label had that same Czech conductor make tons of recordings for them, including a lot of major German repertoire. Didn't that very same Mr Stewart also sing Wotan, the highest of Germanic gods, in the Ring, the most majorly Germanic opera repertoire there is, for the same label at the same time? Or was that suddenly OK then with the Nazi executives because that old Nazi Karajan, Hitler's best friend, conducted? Yes, that must be it ::)
I had a feeling you'd be unhappy with that. But I figured I'd recount it anyway.
I've never known Youngren to have a bone to pick - with anybody. Pretty fair guy from all I've read from him - which is about a decade's worth of thoughtful Wagner reviews for Fanfare.
Never known him to sling mud.
So should he have related this story? Tough to say. The point of the correspondence was to get to the bottom of the matter, so any info, no matter how fantastical/controversial, might in the long run be of ultimate service to the matter.
Anyway, whether or not anyone agrees with the story I simply felt obliged to be true to the letter of Youngren's correspondence regarding this matter.
BTW, this story is thirteen years old. In the interim more might have been fleshed out (or refuted). I know I've read more about it all but can't remember where...or what.
Anyone have any updated information that could shed some light on this matter? I'm all ears...
Quote from: knight on July 15, 2007, 02:47:31 AM
Don, Thanks for all of the info. It is suggested that DFD would not have been involved due to the dates being wide apart. I seem to recall that DFD had distinct doubts about singing the role and somewhere I read that he was prepared to record it, but not to perform it on stage. The indecision went on for some time and then there was a delay simply because of schedules.
I am not determined to paint DFD as the villain. We are all a victim of what we are told, or what we read, unless we were there. However, there are various tales of artists blocking other artists and of them taking an inordinate time to become committed to a project.
DFD did work with Kubelik, I don't know if any joint engagements post-date this issue, but then, despite what goes on behind the scenes, people often just have to get on with things.
Mike
You're welcome, Mike!
Sadly, my poor typing skills prevented me from a speedy posting of all that...but it was worth it. Got me exercise in!
What a wonderful performance, nonetheless.
Yes, it seems unthinkable a mere performer - even one of DFD's stature - could put the stops on such a valuable project.
Obviously somebody somewhere had ideas about making a profit on the whole thing 'else why go through with the project? Could it be politics somewhere high up the food chain...?
Anyway, we may never know the truth but it's an interesting tale to kick around!
Quote from: donwyn on July 15, 2007, 08:28:28 AM
I had a feeling you'd be unhappy with that. But I figured I'd recount it anyway.
I've never known Youngren to have a bone to pick - with anybody. Pretty fair guy from all I've read from him - which is about a decade's worth of thoughtful Wagner reviews for Fanfare.
Never known him to sling mud.
So should he have related this story? Tough to say. The point of the correspondence was to get to the bottom of the matter, so any info, no matter how fantastical/controversial, might in the long run be of ultimate service to the matter.
Anyway, whether or not anyone agrees with the story I simply felt obliged to be true to the letter of Youngren's correspondence regarding this matter.
I agree. As obviously BS the story told by Mr Stewart is, Mr Youngren only wanted to reproduce the information that came to him without "filtering" it. His comment that "certainly this makes still more sense that the various preceding accounts I have received" still makes him look like an idiot, but on the other hand, we know how fashionable and easy it is to explain lots of things with the Nazi wildcard or other unreflected, uninformed nonsense. Apparently, stuff like that simply still looks good to a lot of people.
If we ever get to know the truth, I wouldn't be surprised if it was something totally unspectacular, no evil baritone or sinister Obersturmbannführer intriguing in the background. More likely, complicated and boring, hard to understand contractual complications or stuff like that.
Besides, I have no other information about this, but I find it extremely unlikely that DFD had that much influence with DG, even though he was a "big star". Even Karajan didn't have that much influence there. Sure, he was their biggest selling artist by far, but that doesn't mean he "owned" them. Or does anyone think Karajan was overjoyed that DG signed Bernstein, maybe the only other conductor equaling him in popularity and commercial appeal? Probably not. Yet DG did, no doubt partially because it signaled to Karajan that they didn't depend exclusively on him, and I am sure he was aware of hat. There was a lot of political stuff going on. You do this project for us, then we do that for you. DG invested a shitload of money into Karajan's Ring because they were anxious to get a rival set for Decca's sensationally successful (for "classical" music) Solti Ring, and Karajan was the only one who could give them that. At the same time, he needed someone to pay for all the rehearsals because it was basically a private project for Salzburg. So that worked out well for both sides. And that's how things work, even in the "serious music" business. No evil baritones and old Nazis. They had completely different agendas.
Quote from: Que on October 07, 2007, 10:33:48 AM
Now Rafael Kubelík has entered my private Pantheon of preferred Mahler conductors - joining only Bruno Walter and Bernhard Haitink (and Willem Mengelberg, though there is only the complete recording of the 4th - which is still a thing of eternal beauty nevertheless) - I'd like some feedback on Kubelík's Mahler recordings.
Are the live recordings on Audite to be preferred in each case? (The 4th is lacking I believe)
Which symphonies are particularly successful?
Thanks! :)
Q
Kubelik's M1 is obviously particularly successful. It isn't heavy-handed like Bernstein or Solti, but brisk and swift in tempi. It really makes that 1st movement much livelier. The BRSO is in top-form too, apparent in the superb brass and string playing in the finale. Especially the trumpets, they are really forward, packing a fierce punch. The sonics might be a little dry for some people though, since it's no modern recording (1969 DG) but it isn't all that bad either. Just be aware that Kubelik's M1 is the exact opposite of the larger-than-life, overwhelming Mahler of Bernstein's.
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 13, 2007, 05:53:32 PM
I offered this advice to another member (who shall, unless s/he specifically tells me otherwise, remain anonymous): the choices for Parsifal come down to two recordings. Either Hans Knappertsbusch's 1962 Bayreuth recording on Philips or Rafael Kubelík's 1980 recording on Arts Archive, and it's a matter of taste between them. To my ears, it is really that simple. Kubelík's recording, if I have my story straight, was shelved by Deutsche Grammophon. If you look at the dates, this record should have come out at roughly the same time as Herbert von Karajan's. The assertion has been made that Kubelík's was mothballed in favor of the more-famous conductor's. I don't offer any sort of confirmation or denial.
In any event, Kubelík's set is probably the best post-Knappertsbusch set you could want. The singers are uniformly excellent (with James King and Kurt Moll being standouts in this recording), and the BRSO forces play marvelously. This is just good, idiomatic Wagner: Kubelík doesn't rush things (taking marginally more time than even Knappertsbusch), but things don't seem slow. Orchestrally, I'd say that Kubelík's recording bests Thielemann's, which really revels in the score itself. This recording, had it been released at the time, probably would have been the the set for the 1980s and 1990s. In fact, it would probably be in its second or third incarnation by now.
PSmith08 or Anyone Else,
Is the Kubelik
Parsifal still available on the Arts Archive label (I've never heard of this label before) and if so, does anyone have the URL? Or where can I purchase Kubelik's Parsifal? I'd be very grateful for your reply.
I have the Kubelik
Meistersinger and agree it merits all the praise it's been given.
Quote from: Anne on October 07, 2007, 01:05:29 PM
PSmith08 or Anyone Else,
Is the Kubelik Parsifal still available on the Arts Archive label (I've never heard of this label before) and if so, does anyone have the URL? Or where can I purchase Kubelik's Parsifal? I'd be very grateful for your reply.
I have the Kubelik Meistersinger and agree it merits all the praise it's been given.
Anne, this (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Parsifal-Bernd-Weikl/dp/B00009LW4Y/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7903924-4758357?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1191798767&sr=8-1) is the one I have :).
Quote from: Novitiate on October 07, 2007, 03:15:51 PM
Anne, this (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Parsifal-Bernd-Weikl/dp/B00009LW4Y/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7903924-4758357?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1191798767&sr=8-1) is the one I have :).
N,
Thank you very much! I thought it had to come from the Arts Archive site. Much appreciated! Thank you again.
Now Rafael Kubelík has entered my private Pantheon of preferred Mahler conductors - joining only Bruno Walter and Bernhard Haitink (and Willem Mengelberg, though there is only the complete recording of the 4th - which is still a thing of eternal beauty nevertheless) - I'd like some feedback on Kubelík's Mahler recordings.
Are the live Mahler recordings on Audite to be preferred in each case? (The 4th is lacking I believe)
Which symphonies are particularly successful?
Thanks! :)
Q
Quote from: Bunny on July 14, 2007, 11:01:28 AM
I still have the Life Magazine Warren Report issue -- Zapruder tape stills and all; turn the page after that article (written by Gerald Ford, no less) and the first eye catching thing you see are photos of Karajan and his wife in bikinis in their yacht on the Mediterranean.
I'll take Kubelik over Karajan in bikini any time!
Quote from: Que on October 14, 2007, 01:15:42 AM
Are the live Mahler recordings on Audite to be preferred in each case? (The 4th is lacking I believe)
Which symphonies are particularly successful?
only heard Das Lied (which doesn't have a studio counterpart anyway) and Sym 1 which was outstanding but I don't know the studio counterpart. You're welcome :)
I have not heard Dvorak's Slavonic Dances sound better than the 1975 Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra recordings on DG. Both for sound quality and performances, they are knockouts.
It's no wonder that they keep getting reissued decade after decade.
Quote from: just Jeff on December 01, 2010, 02:39:11 AM
I have not heard Dvorak's Slavonic Dances sound better than the 1975 Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra recordings on DG. Both for sound quality and performances, they are knockouts.
It's no wonder that they keep getting reissued decade after decade.
I agree. They are fantastic!