Poll
My name is Karl Henning, and I approve this message.
And then throw in the requiem, piano concertos, symphonies, serenades and it's a done deal! :)
Not the first time these are happening in these parts.
And it won't be the last either! >:D
Sad but true.
Great comeback!! ;D
Yeah, never-mind the dozens of masterpieces he also wrote. And what about Beethoven and his Wellington Victory? Not even the late quartets or sonatas can redeem that. Hacks, both of them! :D
Wellington Victory is music. You can despise it for some aesthetically reasons but you can listen to it.
Triumphlied is only notes. Without any sense. I don't know any other example of so weak composition. It is absolute zero.
Alas even in my favorite Brahms works there are some passages which are only notes. Some melodies in bass line which makes no sense on its own.
I like to listen sometimes to his music and without any doubt I listen to him much more than Wagner. But now I'm just after relistening of his instrumental music and must say that this friend of my youth is not as interesting as I used to think.
Masterpieces? He was really good in quintets. Really very nice Hungarian dances in original version. His trios and cello sonatas are not bad. Good violin concerto. But in fact there is nothing in his music which you can't find in Schumann, Schubert, Bruch or even Dietrich or Volkmann. Except of course these wooden bass lines and two note melodies.
Good lord.
I feel the same way. I love Brahms' chamber music (one of the great hidden secrets of classical music!) but Wagner 0:) is my main man!
You know I think that I am one of the very few people on the GMG forums who actually prefers Wagner to......YIKES!.....BEETHOVEN (my 2nd favorite composer)!
marvin
1st: Wagner
2nd: Beethoven.......
I think we'll get on well ;D
I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to your weird opinion, Marvin! ; )
Brahgner?
This is GMG...please, be vulgar. It's expected 8)
Sarge
Wider compass?? How much wider can it get than the Ring cycle, the ultra emorional Tristan, the lighthearted Meistersinger.
No one but no one could tower over Wagner.......had it not been for Wagner there would be no Mahler, no Bruckner, no Debussy, no Schoenberg, Wagner is quite possibly the most influential man in the history of Classical music! In the words of Mahler "there was only Beethoven and Wagner...........
The same can not be said of Brahms..........
But hey what the hell do I know..........
a vey unhappy marvin
He didn't mean emotional range. Meant Brahms wrote in many forms from chamber music to symphonies to piano to vocal etc etc and Wagner only wrote operas.
Totally agree! Very well said Marvin! :D
Fine by me.
;D
(http://kschnack.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/vail-2011-0411.jpg)
I'm glad to see other people have Mahler hammers too. I'll get mine out in a minute. :D
Shame I don't care about influence then. :D Wagner didn't compose any of the works of Mahler, Bruckner, Debussy or Schoenberg.
But as I said before (if anyone read it) I really don't think this poll is the best comparison.
You and me, as always, Dave. >:D 0:)
8)
To those of you who voted for Brahms because he composed string quartets, symphonies, piano concertos etc. should know that Wagner was not interested in those genres, in fact he was not interested in music for music's sake. I seriously urge you to read up on Wagner's concept of Total Artwork, and then you will see that Brahms is no match for Wagner!
Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesamtkunstwerk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesamtkunstwerk)
marvin
Something is amiss with the methodology of this poll: "banana" is last ...
;)
(http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/historypics/mozart.jpg)
Certainly a dilemma, but yes, I think I am.
:)
I think most members are well aware that Wagner "was not interested in those genres" and voted accordingly. This is a very simple poll, and Brahms crushes Wagner.
I am interested in the composer you feel would make for a good poll - Wagner vs ?
Verdi?
8)
Sounds good to me.
That was a good choice. Both opera composers so the issue is clear. :)
Wagner vs BRAHMS is appropriate. Remember these 2 polarised the field and were the principal rivals in the Battle of the Romantics.
It is important to note that Brahms FAIlED to halt the progressive romantic movement that was championed by Wagner.
marvin
I think Brahms won out in the end. After all you don't see women in glass tanks or large erector set machines performing Brahms these days.
:)
Rivals for their fans but probably not to each other, I don't care about the fans.
If Brahms had won Modern music (IE Schoenberg, Richard Strauss et al) would not have come to into existence in the form and time that it did. If Brahms had won Max Steiner wouldn't have proclaimed that Richard Wagner invented film music. Oh no quite the contrary, the progression of musical development, art etc. owes more to Wagner than it does to Brahms.
Well Brahms was sucked into it! He was their "champion" as it were. I remember reading something about a petition that Brahms was trying to get signed against the progressive romantics (Liszt/Wagner etc.) but very few people paid any attention to it. I do know for a fact that both Hanslick and Brahms were admirers of Wagner's Die Meistersingers- I bet they were so jealous of his talents, how else would you explain their animosity?
marvin
and vice versa- Brahms didn't dare compose a single "opera"! He must have felt "out done" by Wagner!
marvin
Exactly. Brahms knew this was a genre he wouldn't trump Wagner in.
But there is no way of telling how different it would have been, it's just conjecture. And anyway there is the implicit assumption that it would have been worse when it might have actually been even more interesting anyway. It's arguable that quite a lot of the romantic style holds modernism back through the first half of the 20th century.
Well the roots of Modernism can be traced to Liszt/Wagner, notably the Tristan chord. There is no other credible source that I can think of.
marvin
Can you or anybody here name me one Brahmsian composition that has radically shifted the musical landscape in the way the Tristan Chord has? because I can't.
When I listen to Brahms' chamber music, his 4 symphonies, his songs, even his piano concertos, as sublime as they are, the proper label that comes to my mind is "Brahms the Classical Romantic". I don't get Progressive from Brahms, nor radical, nor daring......these traits are more suitable to Wagner's music.
By the way Schoenberg was very much influenced by Wagner as well.
marvin
Yes, I think Brahms would be the less embarrassed today :)
I wouldn't be so rash as to dowplay the importance of the Tristan Chord. That was no accident of history. Wagner knew exactly what he was doing when he conceived it.
That said I will take a look at what Schoemberg saw in Brahm's music, should prove an interesting read.
With regards to the petition, Read the section below on the conservative manifesto:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Romantics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Romantics)
My God you anti- Wagnerians are making me work hard tonight!! But I don't care, I'll stand by Wagner till the day I die!!
Good night everyone,
marvin
The manifesto of Brahms and Joachim was in its expressions mild in comparison with the attacks that provoked it.
We are going around in circles here. The bottom line is this, atonality (that break from romanticism and into modernism) in music was ushered in by the Liszt/Wagner camp and not by Brahms/Schubert/Mendelssohn camp. This is regardless of the influence Brahms had on Schoenberg. Scheonberg was born in the modern age of music, an age ushered in by Wagner.
Going back to PaulSC contention that the Tristan chord was an accident, a fluke., Tristan und Isolde is built on the idea of unrequited love, an unresolved love. It is this "nonresolution" that Wagner sought to express in the Tristan Chord. There is a break in the harmonic language which leaves the listener uneasy, unsure, what comes next? It was intentional, it ties in with the whole philosophy of that music drama. It is this "break" that inspired the modern musical world Schoenberg lived in. This is why Wagner is so very important to the progression of music.
marvin
I disagree: read my post above on Tristan und Isolde.
marvin
I am in a nasty mood:
http://davidsbuendler.freehostia.com/sberg.htm (http://davidsbuendler.freehostia.com/sberg.htm)
I especially love this paragraph:
In contrast to Schoenberg's characterization of Brahms as a "progressive", the great conductor Wilhelm Furtwängler wrote, 13 years earlier, in his essay entitled "Brahms and the Crisis of Our Time":
"A function in the sense of 'progress,' the music of his later years did not fulfill. With respect to the disintegrating Tristan-harmony, to the first beginnings of later polytonality etc. stood he, that ever had the purely musical universal-form in view, in opposition. There is little difference between the harmony of Brahms around the 90th year and that of Schubert in the 20th year of the same century. ... And herewith we come to that, which makes the case of Brahms meaningful for us today, which imparts to him nothing short of the most immediate topicality.
Brahms is the first great musician, in whose case historical meaning and meaning as an artistic personality no longer coincide: that this was so, was not his fault, but rather that of his epoch."
Well?
marvin
Richard Strauss' Elektra, Shostakovich's Lady Macbeth, Berg's Lulu and Wozzek........sounds quite important to me.
marvin
Well wasn't that the intention of this thread: Brahms OR Wagner?
marvin
I'm not sure. I think it was more like whom do you like most, than whom do you like most and why and why you don't like the other just as much... ;D :D ;D
Anyway, sorry for interrupting.
I think the poll starter wasn't sufficiently clear, however, I never considered it to be anything other than 'whose music would you rather listen to?'. Any claims that Brahms was more influential to later composers is destined to fail. But that doesn't mean that I don't or shouldn't prefer to listen to him than I would to Wagner. I just think you are going down a way different road than anyone else here, and I don't mean the Wagner road, I mean you are arguing for something that no one else is. IMO. :)
8)
(* pounds the table *)
:o
No, he was only slightly off. ;)
Same here, but there's always at least one person who wants to look at it as an "influence" poll.
Well? Furtwangler was wrong, and Schoenberg (and many others) right. Not surprisingly, really. The musical evidence, rather than the harmony-hyperbole, bears it out. The focus on simple harmonic audacity alone will doubtless make Brahms appear relatively meek in comparison to RW (though he can be every bit as ellusive and subtle when he wishes - op 119/1, for example). A focus on motivic technique, ever-present and very rigorous counterpoint and Schoenberg's prized developing variation shows where Brahms's importance lies. It may be less showy than the Tristan chord etc but it is equally important.
and I don't see why Marvin is so excited about such harmony. Why, even Fanny Hensel used chromatic harmony and dissonance extensively, and in her own words, she was not a part of 'Young Germany'. Such things were widespread in that era and would inevitably have led to atonality, maybe even sooner. Who knows?
I wonder if anyone ever told their fathers. :)
Some could have experimented with atonality, but none could pull it off the way Wagner did. Let's face it, Tristan und Isolde is mind-blowing!
marvin
Yes, especially the chord: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEtJgY-qHZY
8)
But it is not as though common practice tonality was swept away by the modern revolution. In the end, atonal methods became part of the toolkit which still rests on the old ways. And people still write symphonies (despite modernists saying the form was obsolete), and anyone writing a symphony must acknowledge Brahms.
"It is often remarked that there is a strong resemblance between the main theme of the finale of Brahms' First Symphony and the main theme of the finale of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Also, Brahms uses the rhythm of the "fate" motto from the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. This rather annoyed Brahms; he felt that this amounted to accusations of plagiarism," (wikipedia)............ 8)
This will be my last rebuttal on this thread.........
Point of information: Nothing that Wagner wrote is atonal.
Your adulation for his music comes across loud and clear, Marvin, but let's not attribute things to to the composer that he never done.
He didn't design the Space Shuttle, either ...
I think it's not completely right: in Tristan und Isolde, the chromatism is taken to extremes so much that it leaves the tonal structure.
No, it really doesn't. It does fascinating, adventurous things near the borders of where tonality goes, but it doesn't cross them.
I respect that choice.
I'm just curious, though.
Was Wagner never annoyed?
Did no one ever tell him about pre-runners of the famous chord?
Or did he (somewhere inside) admit or acknowledge such things himself?
Mmm .... who knows ....
Are Cosima's diary notes on August 29th of 1878 a.o. referring to this chord when she wrote that Wagner told her that he had vieles gestohlen (stolen a lot)?
Did he steal a lot from Cosima's father?
Did Wagner know Liszt's epic song Ich möchte hingeh'n (1845)?
Did he know the first movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata in E-flat, op. 31 no. 3?
Did he know Chopin's Mazurka in F-minor, op. 68 no. 4, published in 1855?
I'll leave it with that.
Let's be fair: these three blokes aren't included in this poll.
I voted for Brahms, btw.
I like his music better and, unlike Wagner, Brahms was more interested in various genres and in music for music's sake. :)
As Marc as instigated a hunt for the chord, I thought it amusing to do so. I must I didn't expect to find it in Hensel who was more at home with the German sixth, as in my favourite chord: G2#G3#C4#E4A4F5x from Das Jahr: March (I call this the crucifixion chord). The chord could however derive from a diminished seventh over a pedal (here C#), as for instance C3#D3#F3#A3B3#trill if one took away the trill (from Capriccio).
Anyway, here it is from Op8.3, the lied headed Lenau: two very prominent instances
bar 32: B1bb, B2bb, E4b, G4b, D5b
bar 36: G1, G2, B3b, D4b, F4, F6
The last being the climactic chord of the whole piece. Perhaps it ought to be known as the Lenau chord!
This Lied ohne Worte was apparently inspired by a poem of Nikolaus Lenau (1802-1850).
And yes, Hensel (and also Louis Spohr!) has been mentioned more than once in the search for 'the roots of the (in)famous Tristan chord'.
I just chose to pick three more famous composers during Wagner's lifetime.
I mean, if Wagner had known medieval music (De Machaut etc.) then he might have realized that his discovery wasn't all that revolutionary at all.
But he's not to blame for not knowing that, because his turntable and cd-player were broken, and the flames rose to his german nose and his walkman started to melt. ;D
What?!
Right, that does it. I've cancelled my subscription to 'Weird Facts Weekly'.
THAT's an opera he should have written.
i.e. Joan of Arc
Yep.
I'm convinced it would have been a genuine Gesamtkunstwerk. :)
But did Wagner himself think of the chord as revolutionary?
I think he at least did think it was very important, though of course one has to be cautious with Internet sources.
Problem is, my source is a Dutch site about Franz Liszt:
http://pianolessen.eu/franz-liszt/
I will try to translate the passage to which I refer:
Both Liszt and Wagner wrote works in which the tonal modus was very difficult to find. In this regard, Wagner's Tristan und Isolde can be considered as a hightlight and this composition, alongside other opera's of Wagner, had great influence on the musical and cultural world in the 2nd half of the 19th century, up to the 'early modernists' such as Richard Strauss and Gustav Mahler, and eventually Schoenberg.
The great interest and admiration for Wagner's compositions were quite legitimate, even though many admirers were sometimes too fanatical and hysterical in their admiration. And mainly because of that Liszt's music became underexposed.
The famous Tristan chord had, with a small difference, already been heard in a rather unknown song by Liszt Ich möchte hingeh'n. Every time Wagner was reminded of this by his environment, he burst into a rage and exclaimed that only he himself had invented this chord, around which the opera "Tristan und Isolde" is built.
The more modest Liszt has never mixed in this discussion. In his friendship with Wagner, Liszt was, as in any other contact, a giver, as Wagner was in all a taker, whether friendships, love affairs or the potential to raise money was concerned.
Mind you: I'm not anti-Wagner. I had a free day today, and this morning I listened to the first act of Tannhauser and even enjoyed it. (Although I didn't feel the need to continue with act 2. ;))
But the poll was asking: Brahms or Wagner? I prefer Brahms and love his music a lot, although, to be honest, I'm not really a sucker for 19th century music.
Wagner is one of those composer whith whom I never really felt the 'click'. I'm not denying his importance, but I sometimes feel it's overdone. And in this thread there was a tendency growing like how on earth could one say that Brahms is a better composer than Wagner?. Followed by some almost Messiah-like outbursts in favour of the Bayreuth Meister. I like enthousiasm about a composer, but, in my case ;), one has to be very very careful to downplay the qualities of Brahms.
But I can also be the devil's advocate: my fave composer - by far - is Bach, but if some other fan calls the man directly sent from heaven or even almost equal to God (which happens sometimes) and downplays other great (baroque) composers, then I will protest.
I know that this is old quote but I have to say that this post completely echoes my feelings. I too prefer Wagner over Beethoven, have Beethoven as 2nd favorite composer and I adore Brahms's chamber music.
Now, in case it's not clear from my nickname: the answer is Wagner (as much as I love Brahms).
If it makes you feel any better ::), I'm sure he did write more pieces like Op. 79, he just burned them. :-X
:D
I haven't looked but I assume this is another one of the few times Sarge is wrong. Well, even Homer nods.
:)
Not "or;" "and." 8)
No, I was right...again ;D Between Brahms and Wagner, the Banana is the only logical choice.
Sarge
"Sarge is almost always right. Or banana."
Not quite snappy enough.
Yes! It was worth enduring Wagner, at the least so that we might have Elgar and Schoenberg! 8)
I've not looked into it . . . I wonder if that had been due to their being a normal choir within the Saisons Russes orchestra . . . .
+1
No surprise from me: I voted Brahms. :)
Absolutely, but I took the question as implying "which one of them do you prefer?"
I would like to quote here (courtesy of our distinguished member Alberich) Tchaikovsky's assessment of Wagner.
And so, by way of conclusion, I should like to say something about the overall impression which this performance of Der Ring des Nibelungen has left me with. Firstly, it has left me with a vague recollection of many strikingly beautiful musical features, especially of a symphonic kind, which is very strange, given that Wagner least of all intended to write operas in a symphonic style. Secondly, it has left me with respectful admiration for the author's tremendous talent and his incredibly rich technique. Thirdly, it has left me with misgivings as to whether Wagner's view of opera is correct. Fourthly, it has left me greatly exhausted, but at the same time it has also left me with the wish to continue my study of this most complicated work of music ever written.
That pretty much sums it up for me. Had Wagner stuck with symphonic music, he'd have been one of my favorite composers. :)
Wonderful! And sharply insightful.
As for the "symphonic" part, I have Cooke's lectures on the Ring, illlustrated with sections from Solti. As a layman I found them fascinating.
That was actually a pretty good joke. Whatever, I am flattered anyway, thank you very much.
Question: 
Option 1: Brahms
Option 2: Wagner
Option 3: BANANA
Title: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 02, 2012, 08:35:36 AM
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 02, 2012, 08:35:36 AM
As GMG seems to be in a mood for many polls recently - here's another that was suggested and is bound to provide some very interesting results.
Brahms or Wagner?
I shall keep my vote to banana for now. Love Brahms but I would imagine Wagner would win once I have heard the complete Ring Cycle!
Brahms or Wagner?
I shall keep my vote to banana for now. Love Brahms but I would imagine Wagner would win once I have heard the complete Ring Cycle!
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 02, 2012, 08:45:38 AM
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 02, 2012, 08:45:38 AM
This is tough, but I chose Brahms.
Another case of, not that one is necessarily better, just that I listen to one more than the other.
I do loves me some Ring Cycle though.
Another case of, not that one is necessarily better, just that I listen to one more than the other.
I do loves me some Ring Cycle though.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 02, 2012, 08:46:26 AM
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 02, 2012, 08:46:26 AM
I voted for Wagner :)
I absolutely love Brahms' music, but Wagner is unbeatable for me! ;D
I absolutely love Brahms' music, but Wagner is unbeatable for me! ;D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: DavidW on February 02, 2012, 08:48:56 AM
Post by: DavidW on February 02, 2012, 08:48:56 AM
This is easy... I choose Brahms. 8)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Lethevich on February 02, 2012, 08:50:43 AM
Post by: Lethevich on February 02, 2012, 08:50:43 AM
Brahms, almost for the chamber and piano music alone :-*
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: North Star on February 02, 2012, 08:54:14 AM
Post by: North Star on February 02, 2012, 08:54:14 AM
I vote Brahms - the symphonies, concertos, chamber music, piano music are all great, almost every piece.
That said, I don't know Wagner that well, I've heard some overtures and orchestral parts from the operas. There is a lot of good music in his works, too, but it's usually surrounded by a lot of music that isn't interesting.
That said, I don't know Wagner that well, I've heard some overtures and orchestral parts from the operas. There is a lot of good music in his works, too, but it's usually surrounded by a lot of music that isn't interesting.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on February 02, 2012, 08:58:35 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on February 02, 2012, 08:58:35 AM
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on February 02, 2012, 08:59:40 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on February 02, 2012, 08:59:40 AM
Quote from: Lethevich on February 02, 2012, 08:50:43 AM
Brahms, almost for the chamber and piano music alone :-*
My name is Karl Henning, and I approve this message.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: DavidW on February 02, 2012, 09:03:44 AM
Post by: DavidW on February 02, 2012, 09:03:44 AM
Quote from: Lethevich on February 02, 2012, 08:50:43 AM
Brahms, almost for the chamber and piano music alone :-*
And then throw in the requiem, piano concertos, symphonies, serenades and it's a done deal! :)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Opus106 on February 02, 2012, 09:06:30 AM
Post by: Opus106 on February 02, 2012, 09:06:30 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on February 02, 2012, 08:35:36 AM
As GMG seems to be in a mood for many polls recently - here's another that was suggested and is bound to provide some very interesting results.
Brahms or Wagner?
Not the first time these are happening in these parts.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Geo Dude on February 02, 2012, 09:07:50 AM
Post by: Geo Dude on February 02, 2012, 09:07:50 AM
I like Wagner, but this is no contest: Brahms wins. And yes, the chamber music is a very strong argument in Brahms' favor.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: DavidW on February 02, 2012, 09:13:03 AM
Post by: DavidW on February 02, 2012, 09:13:03 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 02, 2012, 09:06:30 AM
Not the first time these are happening in these parts.
And it won't be the last either! >:D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Opus106 on February 02, 2012, 09:15:34 AM
Post by: Opus106 on February 02, 2012, 09:15:34 AM
Can Wagner's music move a Vulcan?
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Opus106 on February 02, 2012, 09:16:11 AM
Post by: Opus106 on February 02, 2012, 09:16:11 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 02, 2012, 09:13:03 AM
And it won't be the last either! >:D
Sad but true.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: mszczuj on February 02, 2012, 12:52:57 PM
Post by: mszczuj on February 02, 2012, 12:52:57 PM
Brahms is a fake.
I'm sorry I can't treat as a real composer the man who wrote Triumphlied.
I'm sorry I can't treat as a real composer the man who wrote Triumphlied.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: starrynight on February 02, 2012, 01:21:43 PM
Post by: starrynight on February 02, 2012, 01:21:43 PM
Brahms is always likely to beat out Wagner, the variety will appeal to more people.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: North Star on February 02, 2012, 02:21:18 PM
Post by: North Star on February 02, 2012, 02:21:18 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 02, 2012, 09:15:34 AMSure, out of the concert hall.
Can Wagner's music move a Vulcan?
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: DavidW on February 02, 2012, 02:57:21 PM
Post by: DavidW on February 02, 2012, 02:57:21 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 02, 2012, 09:15:34 AM
Can Wagner's music move a Vulcan?
Quote from: North Star on February 02, 2012, 02:21:18 PM
Sure, out of the concert hall.
Great comeback!! ;D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Josquin des Prez on February 02, 2012, 04:05:19 PM
Post by: Josquin des Prez on February 02, 2012, 04:05:19 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on February 02, 2012, 12:52:57 PM
Brahms is a fake.
I'm sorry I can't treat as a real composer the man who wrote Triumphlied.
Yeah, never-mind the dozens of masterpieces he also wrote. And what about Beethoven and his Wellington Victory? Not even the late quartets or sonatas can redeem that. Hacks, both of them! :D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: mszczuj on February 02, 2012, 09:56:42 PM
Post by: mszczuj on February 02, 2012, 09:56:42 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on February 02, 2012, 04:05:19 PMYeah, never-mind the dozens of masterpieces he also wrote. And what about Beethoven and his Wellington Victory? Not even the late quartets or sonatas can redeem that. Hacks, both of them! :D
Wellington Victory is music. You can despise it for some aesthetically reasons but you can listen to it.
Triumphlied is only notes. Without any sense. I don't know any other example of so weak composition. It is absolute zero.
Alas even in my favorite Brahms works there are some passages which are only notes. Some melodies in bass line which makes no sense on its own.
I like to listen sometimes to his music and without any doubt I listen to him much more than Wagner. But now I'm just after relistening of his instrumental music and must say that this friend of my youth is not as interesting as I used to think.
Masterpieces? He was really good in quintets. Really very nice Hungarian dances in original version. His trios and cello sonatas are not bad. Good violin concerto. But in fact there is nothing in his music which you can't find in Schumann, Schubert, Bruch or even Dietrich or Volkmann. Except of course these wooden bass lines and two note melodies.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: eyeresist on February 02, 2012, 11:28:42 PM
Post by: eyeresist on February 02, 2012, 11:28:42 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on February 02, 2012, 09:56:42 PM
Wellington Victory is music. You can despise it for some aesthetically reasons but you can listen to it.
Triumphlied is only notes. Without any sense. I don't know any other example of so weak composition. It is absolute zero.
Alas even in my favorite Brahms works there are some passages which are only notes. Some melodies in bass line which makes no sense on its own.
Good lord.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 03, 2012, 01:15:03 AM
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 03, 2012, 01:15:03 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 02, 2012, 11:28:42 PMThat echoes what I was thinking. I guess there are notes and then there are NOTES!
Good lord.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Florestan on February 03, 2012, 01:45:06 AM
Post by: Florestan on February 03, 2012, 01:45:06 AM
Brahms.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 03, 2012, 02:08:28 AM
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 03, 2012, 02:08:28 AM
Chiquita
Sarge
Sarge
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: starrynight on February 03, 2012, 02:30:19 AM
Post by: starrynight on February 03, 2012, 02:30:19 AM
I wonder if this is really the best comparison anyway.
Brahms v Tchaikovsky or Brahms v Schumann or Wagner v Verdi are probably better.
Brahms v Tchaikovsky or Brahms v Schumann or Wagner v Verdi are probably better.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on February 03, 2012, 02:46:30 AM
Post by: marvinbrown on February 03, 2012, 02:46:30 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 02, 2012, 08:46:26 AM
I voted for Wagner :)
I absolutely love Brahms' music, but Wagner is unbeatable for me! ;D
I feel the same way. I love Brahms' chamber music (one of the great hidden secrets of classical music!) but Wagner 0:) is my main man!
You know I think that I am one of the very few people on the GMG forums who actually prefers Wagner to......YIKES!.....BEETHOVEN (my 2nd favorite composer)!
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 03, 2012, 03:14:03 AM
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 03, 2012, 03:14:03 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 03, 2012, 02:46:30 AM
I feel the same way. I love Brahms' chamber music (one of the great hidden secrets of classical music!) but Wagner 0:) is my main man!
You know I think that I am one of the very few people on the GMG forums who actually prefers Wagner to......YIKES!.....BEETHOVEN (my 2nd favorite composer)!
1st: Wagner
2nd: Beethoven.......
I think we'll get on well ;D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Wendell_E on February 03, 2012, 03:22:57 AM
Post by: Wendell_E on February 03, 2012, 03:22:57 AM
Easy!
For opera: Wagner.
For everything else: Brahms.
This poll may now be closed. ;D
For opera: Wagner.
For everything else: Brahms.
This poll may now be closed. ;D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on February 03, 2012, 03:56:52 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on February 03, 2012, 03:56:52 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 03, 2012, 02:46:30 AM
You know I think that I am one of the very few people on the GMG forums who actually prefers Wagner to......YIKES!.....BEETHOVEN (my 2nd favorite composer)!
I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to your weird opinion, Marvin! ; )
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: The new erato on February 03, 2012, 01:02:38 PM
Post by: The new erato on February 03, 2012, 01:02:38 PM
Quote from: Lethevich on February 02, 2012, 08:50:43 AMMe too....
Brahms, almost for the chamber and piano music alone :-*
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 12:10:32 PM
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 12:10:32 PM
Brahms. He didn't reach some of the heights of passion Wagner did, but I find the depth of his music to be greater than anyone. Brahms (if one does the vulgar thing in ranking composers!) is my choice for the very greatest of them all!
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Ataraxia on February 26, 2012, 03:06:42 PM
Post by: Ataraxia on February 26, 2012, 03:06:42 PM
There is only one answer and it starts with a "b!"
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: eyeresist on February 26, 2012, 04:59:06 PM
Post by: eyeresist on February 26, 2012, 04:59:06 PM
Quote from: Ataraxia on February 26, 2012, 03:06:42 PM
There is only one answer and it starts with a "b!"
Brahgner?
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Ten thumbs on February 28, 2012, 03:50:28 AM
Post by: Ten thumbs on February 28, 2012, 03:50:28 AM
Mm. . .Can we Poll Debussy and Puccini next?
I like both Brahms and Wagner but if I have to take one it will have to be Brahms, simply for his wider compass.
I like both Brahms and Wagner but if I have to take one it will have to be Brahms, simply for his wider compass.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 28, 2012, 03:59:00 AM
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 28, 2012, 03:59:00 AM
Quote from: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 12:10:32 PM
Brahms (if one does the vulgar thing in ranking composers!) is my choice for the very greatest of them all!
This is GMG...please, be vulgar. It's expected 8)
Sarge
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 07:55:56 AM
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 07:55:56 AM
OH YEAH
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2012, 08:27:45 AM
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2012, 08:27:45 AM
How can anyone imagine a choice other than Brahms? 0:)
8)
8)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 08:53:13 AM
Post by: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 08:53:13 AM
Quote from: Ten thumbs on February 28, 2012, 03:50:28 AM
Mm. . .Can we Poll Debussy and Puccini next?
I like both Brahms and Wagner but if I have to take one it will have to be Brahms, simply for his wider compass.
Wider compass?? How much wider can it get than the Ring cycle, the ultra emorional Tristan, the lighthearted Meistersinger.
No one but no one could tower over Wagner.......had it not been for Wagner there would be no Mahler, no Bruckner, no Debussy, no Schoenberg, Wagner is quite possibly the most influential man in the history of Classical music! In the words of Mahler "there was only Beethoven and Wagner...........
The same can not be said of Brahms..........
But hey what the hell do I know..........
a vey unhappy marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: DavidW on February 28, 2012, 09:05:32 AM
Post by: DavidW on February 28, 2012, 09:05:32 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 08:53:13 AM
Wider compass?? How much wider can it get than the Ring cycle, the ultra emorional Tristan, the lighthearted Meistersinger.
He didn't mean emotional range. Meant Brahms wrote in many forms from chamber music to symphonies to piano to vocal etc etc and Wagner only wrote operas.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 28, 2012, 09:08:51 AM
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 28, 2012, 09:08:51 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 08:53:13 AM
Wider compass?? How much wider can it get than the Ring cycle, the ultra emorional Tristan, the lighthearted Meistersinger.
No one but no one could tower over Wagner.......had it not been for Wagner there would be no Mahler, no Bruckner, no Debussy, no Schoenberg, Wagner is quite possibly the most influential man in the history of Classical music! In the words of Mahler "there was only Beethoven and Wagner...........
The same can not be said of Brahms..........
Totally agree! Very well said Marvin! :D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Ataraxia on February 28, 2012, 09:25:46 AM
Post by: Ataraxia on February 28, 2012, 09:25:46 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 08:53:13 AM
...had it not been for Wagner there would be no Mahler, no Bruckner, no Debussy, no Schoenberg...
Fine by me.
;D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: North Star on February 28, 2012, 09:54:57 AM
Post by: North Star on February 28, 2012, 09:54:57 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on February 28, 2012, 09:25:46 AM
Fine by me.
;D
(http://kschnack.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/vail-2011-0411.jpg)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 28, 2012, 10:02:46 AM
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 28, 2012, 10:02:46 AM
Quote from: North Star on February 28, 2012, 09:54:57 AM
(http://kschnack.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/vail-2011-0411.jpg)
I'm glad to see other people have Mahler hammers too. I'll get mine out in a minute. :D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: starrynight on February 28, 2012, 11:37:23 AM
Post by: starrynight on February 28, 2012, 11:37:23 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 08:53:13 AM
Wider compass?? How much wider can it get than the Ring cycle, the ultra emorional Tristan, the lighthearted Meistersinger.
No one but no one could tower over Wagner.......had it not been for Wagner there would be no Mahler, no Bruckner, no Debussy, no Schoenberg, Wagner is quite possibly the most influential man in the history of Classical music! In the words of Mahler "there was only Beethoven and Wagner...........
The same can not be said of Brahms..........
But hey what the hell do I know..........
a vey unhappy marvin
Shame I don't care about influence then. :D Wagner didn't compose any of the works of Mahler, Bruckner, Debussy or Schoenberg.
But as I said before (if anyone read it) I really don't think this poll is the best comparison.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2012, 11:47:25 AM
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2012, 11:47:25 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on February 28, 2012, 09:25:46 AM
Fine by me.
;D
You and me, as always, Dave. >:D 0:)
8)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 11:50:44 AM
Post by: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 11:50:44 AM
To those of you who voted for Brahms because he composed string quartets, symphonies, piano concertos etc. should know that Wagner was not interested in those genres, in fact he was not interested in music for music's sake. I seriously urge you to read up on Wagner's concept of Total Artwork, and then you will see that Brahms is no match for Wagner!
Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesamtkunstwerk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesamtkunstwerk)
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: PaulR on February 28, 2012, 11:55:03 AM
Post by: PaulR on February 28, 2012, 11:55:03 AM
Not even close.....Brahms
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Leon on February 28, 2012, 11:57:24 AM
Post by: Leon on February 28, 2012, 11:57:24 AM
Quote from: paulrbass on February 28, 2012, 11:55:03 AM
Not even close.....Brahms
Something is amiss with the methodology of this poll: "banana" is last ...
;)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: PaulR on February 28, 2012, 12:02:32 PM
Post by: PaulR on February 28, 2012, 12:02:32 PM
Quote from: Arnold on February 28, 2012, 11:57:24 AMare you suggesting banana was better than Wagner? 0:)
Something is amiss with the methodology of this poll: "banana" is last ...
;)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Ataraxia on February 28, 2012, 12:06:26 PM
Post by: Ataraxia on February 28, 2012, 12:06:26 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 28, 2012, 11:47:25 AM
You and me, as always, Dave. >:D 0:)
(http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/historypics/mozart.jpg)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Leon on February 28, 2012, 12:06:31 PM
Post by: Leon on February 28, 2012, 12:06:31 PM
Quote from: paulrbass on February 28, 2012, 12:02:32 PM
are you suggesting banana was better than Wagner? 0:)
Certainly a dilemma, but yes, I think I am.
:)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 28, 2012, 12:06:41 PM
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 28, 2012, 12:06:41 PM
Wow...this forum is full of Hanslicks :D
Sarge
Sarge
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Bulldog on February 28, 2012, 12:11:16 PM
Post by: Bulldog on February 28, 2012, 12:11:16 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 11:50:44 AM
To those of you who voted for Brahms because he composed string quartets, symphonies, piano concertos etc. should know that Wagner was not interested in those genres, in fact he was not interested in music for music's sake.
I think most members are well aware that Wagner "was not interested in those genres" and voted accordingly. This is a very simple poll, and Brahms crushes Wagner.
I am interested in the composer you feel would make for a good poll - Wagner vs ?
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2012, 12:28:55 PM
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2012, 12:28:55 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 28, 2012, 12:11:16 PM
I think most members are well aware that Wagner "was not interested in those genres" and voted accordingly. This is a very simple poll, and Brahms crushes Wagner.
I am interested in the composer you feel would make for a good poll - Wagner vs ?
Verdi?
8)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 12:41:07 PM
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 12:41:07 PM
Mahler hammers!! I still like a lead pipe and a wooden timpani box myself!
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Bulldog on February 28, 2012, 12:42:32 PM
Post by: Bulldog on February 28, 2012, 12:42:32 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 28, 2012, 12:28:55 PM
Verdi?
8)
Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: DavidW on February 28, 2012, 02:12:02 PM
Post by: DavidW on February 28, 2012, 02:12:02 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 28, 2012, 12:28:55 PM
Verdi?
8)
That was a good choice. Both opera composers so the issue is clear. :)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 02:37:55 PM
Post by: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 28, 2012, 12:11:16 PM
I think most members are well aware that Wagner "was not interested in those genres" and voted accordingly. This is a very simple poll, and Brahms crushes Wagner.
I am interested in the composer you feel would make for a good poll - Wagner vs ?
Wagner vs BRAHMS is appropriate. Remember these 2 polarised the field and were the principal rivals in the Battle of the Romantics.
It is important to note that Brahms FAIlED to halt the progressive romantic movement that was championed by Wagner.
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Leon on February 28, 2012, 03:06:45 PM
Post by: Leon on February 28, 2012, 03:06:45 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 02:37:55 PM
Wagner vs BRAHMS is appropriate. Remember these 2 polarised the field and were the principal rivals in the Battle of the Romantics.
It is important to note that Brahms FAIlED to halt the progressive romantic movement that was championed by Wagner.
marvin
I think Brahms won out in the end. After all you don't see women in glass tanks or large erector set machines performing Brahms these days.
:)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: starrynight on February 28, 2012, 03:07:56 PM
Post by: starrynight on February 28, 2012, 03:07:56 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 02:37:55 PM
Wagner vs BRAHMS is appropriate. Remember these 2 polarised the field and were the principal rivals in the Battle of the Romantics.
It is important to note that Brahms FAIlED to halt the progressive romantic movement that was championed by Wagner.
marvin
Rivals for their fans but probably not to each other, I don't care about the fans.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 03:13:55 PM
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 03:13:55 PM
I think one may safely say that Brahms never put particular effort into trying to halt the progressive Wagnerian/Lisztian ideals. He was no fan, but only Hanslick and a large number of lesser lights were really enemies.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 07:49:00 AM
Post by: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 07:49:00 AM
Quote from: Arnold on February 28, 2012, 03:06:45 PM
I think Brahms won out in the end.
:)
If Brahms had won Modern music (IE Schoenberg, Richard Strauss et al) would not have come to into existence in the form and time that it did. If Brahms had won Max Steiner wouldn't have proclaimed that Richard Wagner invented film music. Oh no quite the contrary, the progression of musical development, art etc. owes more to Wagner than it does to Brahms.
Quote from: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 03:13:55 PM
I think one may safely say that Brahms never put particular effort into trying to halt the progressive Wagnerian/Lisztian ideals. He was no fan, but only Hanslick and a large number of lesser lights were really enemies.
Well Brahms was sucked into it! He was their "champion" as it were. I remember reading something about a petition that Brahms was trying to get signed against the progressive romantics (Liszt/Wagner etc.) but very few people paid any attention to it. I do know for a fact that both Hanslick and Brahms were admirers of Wagner's Die Meistersingers- I bet they were so jealous of his talents, how else would you explain their animosity?
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Winky Willy on February 29, 2012, 08:14:58 AM
Post by: Winky Willy on February 29, 2012, 08:14:58 AM
If either one was jealous of the other, it was Wagner of Brahms. His vitriolic attacks are absurd unless he realised the truth, which is that Brahms had things he would never have.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 09:47:14 AM
Post by: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 09:47:14 AM
Quote from: Winky Willy on February 29, 2012, 08:14:58 AM
If either one was jealous of the other, it was Wagner of Brahms. His vitriolic attacks are absurd unless he realised the truth, which is that Brahms had things he would never have.
and vice versa- Brahms didn't dare compose a single "opera"! He must have felt "out done" by Wagner!
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 29, 2012, 10:02:30 AM
Post by: Mirror Image on February 29, 2012, 10:02:30 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 09:47:14 AM
and vice versa- Brahms didn't dare compose a single "opera"! He must have felt "out done" by Wagner!
marvin
Exactly. Brahms knew this was a genre he wouldn't trump Wagner in.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Winky Willy on February 29, 2012, 11:00:58 AM
Post by: Winky Willy on February 29, 2012, 11:00:58 AM
I never heard that Brahms ever had any interest in composing opera anyways.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: starrynight on February 29, 2012, 11:11:14 AM
Post by: starrynight on February 29, 2012, 11:11:14 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 07:49:00 AM
If Brahms had won Modern music (IE Schoenberg, Richard Strauss et al) would not have come to into existence in the form and time that it did.
But there is no way of telling how different it would have been, it's just conjecture. And anyway there is the implicit assumption that it would have been worse when it might have actually been even more interesting anyway. It's arguable that quite a lot of the romantic style holds modernism back through the first half of the 20th century.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 02:04:02 PM
Post by: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: starrynight on February 29, 2012, 11:11:14 AM
But there is no way of telling how different it would have been, it's just conjecture. And anyway there is the implicit assumption that it would have been worse when it might have actually been even more interesting anyway. It's arguable that quite a lot of the romantic style holds modernism back through the first half of the 20th century.
Well the roots of Modernism can be traced to Liszt/Wagner, notably the Tristan chord. There is no other credible source that I can think of.
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Scion7 on February 29, 2012, 02:25:14 PM
Post by: Scion7 on February 29, 2012, 02:25:14 PM
Well, I'll have to go with Brahms.
Siegfried Idyll notwithstanding. :)
Siegfried Idyll notwithstanding. :)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: PaulSC on February 29, 2012, 02:35:49 PM
Post by: PaulSC on February 29, 2012, 02:35:49 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 02:04:02 PMWagner and Liszt were certainly important innovators in chromatic harmony, but there is a great deal more to modernism than pitch syntax. Both Schoenberg and Webern acknowledged Brahms as an important influence, the former in his essay, "Brahms the Progressive," and the latter in his lectures published posthumously as The Path to New Music.
Well the roots of Modernism can be traced to Liszt/Wagner, notably the Tristan chord. There is no other credible source that I can think of.
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Winky Willy on February 29, 2012, 02:52:26 PM
Post by: Winky Willy on February 29, 2012, 02:52:26 PM
Exactly. Schoenberg considered Brahms extremely important in his own development.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 03:15:39 PM
Post by: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 03:15:39 PM
Can you or anybody here name me one Brahmsian composition that has radically shifted the musical landscape in the way the Tristan Chord has? because I can't.
When I listen to Brahms' chamber music, his 4 symphonies, his songs, even his piano concertos, as sublime as they are, the proper label that comes to my mind is "Brahms the Classical Romantic". I don't get Progressive from Brahms, nor radical, nor daring......these traits are more suitable to Wagner's music.
By the way Schoenberg was very much influenced by Wagner as well.
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: starrynight on February 29, 2012, 03:57:35 PM
Post by: starrynight on February 29, 2012, 03:57:35 PM
It could be argued Wagner was a product of his time just like anyone always is. And anyway if you want to look at the roots of something, where do you stop? Medieval plainchant? You can keep going back and back. And the roots of something are just that, roots. Things can develop in very different ways eventually.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: PaulSC on February 29, 2012, 04:10:40 PM
Post by: PaulSC on February 29, 2012, 04:10:40 PM
While the so-called "Tristan chord" has been heavily mythologized, both the sonority and the principle of enharmonic reinterpretation that allows such a variety of interactions with other chords have numerous precedents, particularly in chromatic idioms of the Baroque era. I consider the volume of debate that surrounds this chord to be mainly an accident of history.
Of course Schoenberg and Webern were influenced by Wagner as well as Brahms. My point is that your polarized view of one as progressive and the other is conservative is not a view they shared. There is no point in attributing radical shifts in the musical landscape to any individual chord or even any individual piece by Wagner or Brahms. Instead, there are recurring features in their work — chromaticism, metrical displacement, motivic transformations, and so on — that inspired the composers who studied them carefully. If you want to understand what Schoenberg saw in Brahms's music, reading his essay would be a good start. It appears in the book Style and Idea, although it predates that collection.
Of course Schoenberg and Webern were influenced by Wagner as well as Brahms. My point is that your polarized view of one as progressive and the other is conservative is not a view they shared. There is no point in attributing radical shifts in the musical landscape to any individual chord or even any individual piece by Wagner or Brahms. Instead, there are recurring features in their work — chromaticism, metrical displacement, motivic transformations, and so on — that inspired the composers who studied them carefully. If you want to understand what Schoenberg saw in Brahms's music, reading his essay would be a good start. It appears in the book Style and Idea, although it predates that collection.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: starrynight on February 29, 2012, 04:24:06 PM
Post by: starrynight on February 29, 2012, 04:24:06 PM
History is always biased and has exaggerations according to people's preferences at the time which is why I never have understood why people continue using it in arguments as to why something is important. Ulimately all that matters to me is the music itself and whether I think it is good on its own merit.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: eyeresist on February 29, 2012, 04:27:09 PM
Post by: eyeresist on February 29, 2012, 04:27:09 PM
Quote from: Arnold on February 28, 2012, 03:06:45 PMI think Brahms won out in the end. After all you don't see women in glass tanks or large erector set machines performing Brahms these days.
Yes, I think Brahms would be the less embarrassed today :)
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 07:49:00 AMI remember reading something about a petition that Brahms was trying to get signed against the progressive romantics (Liszt/Wagner etc.) but very few people paid any attention to it. I do know for a fact that both Hanslick and Brahms were admirers of Wagner's Die Meistersingers- I bet they were so jealous of his talents, how else would you explain their animosity?This sounds like conspiracy thinking. Can we see something verifiable about this "petition"?
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 04:48:54 PM
Post by: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 04:48:54 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on February 29, 2012, 04:10:40 PM
While the so-called "Tristan chord" has been heavily mythologized, both the sonority and the principle of enharmonic reinterpretation that allows such a variety of interactions with other chords have numerous precedents, particularly in chromatic idioms of the Baroque era. I consider the volume of debate that surrounds this chord to be mainly an accident of history.
Of course Schoenberg and Webern were influenced by Wagner as well as Brahms. My point is that your polarized view of one as progressive and the other is conservative is not a view they shared. There is no point in attributing radical shifts in the musical landscape to any individual chord or even any individual piece by Wagner or Brahms. Instead, there are recurring features in their work — chromaticism, metrical displacement, motivic transformations, and so on — that inspired the composers who studied them carefully. If you want to understand what Schoenberg saw in Brahms's music, reading his essay would be a good start. It appears in the book Style
and Idea, although it predates that collection.
I wouldn't be so rash as to dowplay the importance of the Tristan Chord. That was no accident of history. Wagner knew exactly what he was doing when he conceived it.
That said I will take a look at what Schoemberg saw in Brahm's music, should prove an interesting read.
With regards to the petition, Read the section below on the conservative manifesto:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Romantics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Romantics)
My God you anti- Wagnerians are making me work hard tonight!! But I don't care, I'll stand by Wagner till the day I die!!
Good night everyone,
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: eyeresist on February 29, 2012, 05:22:34 PM
Post by: eyeresist on February 29, 2012, 05:22:34 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 29, 2012, 04:48:54 PMWith regards to the petition, Read the section below on the conservative manifesto:I don't think there are any anti-Wagnerians on this thread, unless you think anyone who denies that Wagner was a literal incarnation of the deity is anti-Wagnerian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Romantics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Romantics)
My God you anti- Wagnerians are making me work hard tonight!! But I don't care, I'll stand by Wagner till the day I die!!
The manifesto of Brahms and Joachim was in its expressions mild in comparison with the attacks that provoked it.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Luke on February 29, 2012, 08:33:43 PM
Post by: Luke on February 29, 2012, 08:33:43 PM
Some good stuff from PaulSC, here, marvin, and he's bang on. There's really no debate about it, musicologically speaking - Schoenberg himself said that his art derived in equal measure from Brahms and from Wagner, and the analysis of the music bears this out. One could in an extremely generalised way say that the still-tonal chromatic leanings of Wagner, Liszt and a few other composers hinted at the border to be crossed by Schoenberg in his op 11 and the freely-atonal territories explored in the subsequent works (and wonderful, wonderful works they are too!). And then one has to say that the Schoenberg found it necessary to temper this freedom with a strong dose of the developing variation principle he perceived in Brahms - a principle which is just as important to Schoenberg as atonality ever was. It is Brahmsian developing variation, with its rigorous motivic work, which leads to the twelve-tone technique, with its fundamental concern with unity and consistency of interval and motive. Wagner's influence on Schoenberg was deeply important but broad-brush - rather like Wagner's music, one could say: it is the totality, not the details, that weighs so heavy. But Brahms's influence was technical and specific (witness the analyses of Brahms that Schoenberg published), and therefore affected the everyday note-to-note details of Schoenberg's work deeply.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 03:32:51 AM
Post by: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 03:32:51 AM
Quote from: Luke on February 29, 2012, 08:33:43 PM
Some good stuff from PaulSC, here, marvin, and he's bang on. There's really no debate about it, musicologically speaking - Schoenberg himself said that his art derived in equal measure from Brahms and from Wagner, and the analysis of the music bears this out. One could in an extremely generalised way say that the still-tonal chromatic leanings of Wagner, Liszt and a few other composers hinted at the border to be crossed by Schoenberg in his op 11 and the freely-atonal territories explored in the subsequent works (and wonderful, wonderful works they are too!). And then one has to say that the Schoenberg found it necessary to temper this freedom with a strong dose of the developing variation principle he perceived in Brahms - a principle which is just as important to Schoenberg as atonality ever was. It is Brahmsian developing variation, with its rigorous motivic work, which leads to the twelve-tone technique, with its fundamental concern with unity and consistency of interval and motive. Wagner's influence on Schoenberg was deeply important but broad-brush - rather like Wagner's music, one could say: it is the totality, not the details, that weighs so heavy. But Brahms's influence was technical and specific (witness the analyses of Brahms that Schoenberg published), and therefore affected the everyday note-to-note details of Schoenberg's work deeply.
We are going around in circles here. The bottom line is this, atonality (that break from romanticism and into modernism) in music was ushered in by the Liszt/Wagner camp and not by Brahms/Schubert/Mendelssohn camp. This is regardless of the influence Brahms had on Schoenberg. Scheonberg was born in the modern age of music, an age ushered in by Wagner.
Going back to PaulSC contention that the Tristan chord was an accident, a fluke., Tristan und Isolde is built on the idea of unrequited love, an unresolved love. It is this "nonresolution" that Wagner sought to express in the Tristan Chord. There is a break in the harmonic language which leaves the listener uneasy, unsure, what comes next? It was intentional, it ties in with the whole philosophy of that music drama. It is this "break" that inspired the modern musical world Schoenberg lived in. This is why Wagner is so very important to the progression of music.
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: starrynight on March 01, 2012, 03:39:52 AM
Post by: starrynight on March 01, 2012, 03:39:52 AM
I think the 'modern age' would have been ushered in whether Wagner had existed or not. Romanticism pushed tonality as far as they could which was a natural progression after the basic system had been fully exploited in earlier periods.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 03:47:08 AM
Post by: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 03:47:08 AM
Quote from: starrynight on March 01, 2012, 03:39:52 AM
I think the 'modern age' would have been ushered in whether Wagner had existed or not. Romanticism pushed tonality as far as they could which was a natural progression after the basic system had been fully exploited in earlier periods.
I disagree: read my post above on Tristan und Isolde.
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 04:00:01 AM
Post by: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 04:00:01 AM
Quote from: Luke on February 29, 2012, 08:33:43 PM
Some good stuff from PaulSC, here, marvin, and he's bang on. There's really no debate about it, musicologically speaking - Schoenberg himself said that his art derived in equal measure from Brahms and from Wagner, and the analysis of the music bears this out. One could in an extremely generalised way say that the still-tonal chromatic leanings of Wagner, Liszt and a few other composers hinted at the border to be crossed by Schoenberg in his op 11 and the freely-atonal territories explored in the subsequent works (and wonderful, wonderful works they are too!). And then one has to say that the Schoenberg found it necessary to temper this freedom with a strong dose of the developing variation principle he perceived in Brahms - a principle which is just as important to Schoenberg as atonality ever was. It is Brahmsian developing variation, with its rigorous motivic work, which leads to the twelve-tone technique, with its fundamental concern with unity and consistency of interval and motive. Wagner's influence on Schoenberg was deeply important but broad-brush - rather like Wagner's music, one could say: it is the totality, not the details, that weighs so heavy. But Brahms's influence was technical and specific (witness the analyses of Brahms that Schoenberg published), and therefore affected the everyday note-to-note details of Schoenberg's work deeply.
I am in a nasty mood:
http://davidsbuendler.freehostia.com/sberg.htm (http://davidsbuendler.freehostia.com/sberg.htm)
I especially love this paragraph:
In contrast to Schoenberg's characterization of Brahms as a "progressive", the great conductor Wilhelm Furtwängler wrote, 13 years earlier, in his essay entitled "Brahms and the Crisis of Our Time":
"A function in the sense of 'progress,' the music of his later years did not fulfill. With respect to the disintegrating Tristan-harmony, to the first beginnings of later polytonality etc. stood he, that ever had the purely musical universal-form in view, in opposition. There is little difference between the harmony of Brahms around the 90th year and that of Schubert in the 20th year of the same century. ... And herewith we come to that, which makes the case of Brahms meaningful for us today, which imparts to him nothing short of the most immediate topicality.
Brahms is the first great musician, in whose case historical meaning and meaning as an artistic personality no longer coincide: that this was so, was not his fault, but rather that of his epoch."
Well?
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: starrynight on March 01, 2012, 05:06:48 AM
Post by: starrynight on March 01, 2012, 05:06:48 AM
Was opera really that important in modernism anyway? It was more central in earlier periods. And all this myths and legends stuff is very much tied to romanticism.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Florestan on March 01, 2012, 05:39:49 AM
Post by: Florestan on March 01, 2012, 05:39:49 AM
I'd have never thought that the War of the Romantics is still alive.
- Wagner!
- No, Brahms!
- But wait, Wagner did that!
- Yes, and Brahms did this!
- You're wrong!
- No wait, actually I am right!
- Wagner was the future!
- Brahms was it even more!
etc etc etc.
;D
- Wagner!
- No, Brahms!
- But wait, Wagner did that!
- Yes, and Brahms did this!
- You're wrong!
- No wait, actually I am right!
- Wagner was the future!
- Brahms was it even more!
etc etc etc.
;D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 06:12:47 AM
Post by: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 06:12:47 AM
Quote from: starrynight on March 01, 2012, 05:06:48 AM
Was opera really that important in modernism anyway? It was more central in earlier periods. And all this myths and legends stuff is very much tied to romanticism.
Richard Strauss' Elektra, Shostakovich's Lady Macbeth, Berg's Lulu and Wozzek........sounds quite important to me.
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 06:30:44 AM
Post by: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 06:30:44 AM
Quote from: Florestan on March 01, 2012, 05:39:49 AM
I'd have never thought that the War of the Romantics is still alive.
- Wagner!
- No, Brahms!
- But wait, Wagner did that!
- Yes, and Brahms did this!
- You're wrong!
- No wait, actually I am right!
- Wagner was the future!
- Brahms was it even more!
etc etc etc.
;D
Well wasn't that the intention of this thread: Brahms OR Wagner?
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Florestan on March 01, 2012, 06:36:14 AM
Post by: Florestan on March 01, 2012, 06:36:14 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 06:30:44 AM
Well wasn't that the intention of this thread: Brahms OR Wagner?
I'm not sure. I think it was more like whom do you like most, than whom do you like most and why and why you don't like the other just as much... ;D :D ;D
Anyway, sorry for interrupting.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2012, 07:16:43 AM
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2012, 07:16:43 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 06:30:44 AM
Well wasn't that the intention of this thread: Brahms OR Wagner?
marvin
I think the poll starter wasn't sufficiently clear, however, I never considered it to be anything other than 'whose music would you rather listen to?'. Any claims that Brahms was more influential to later composers is destined to fail. But that doesn't mean that I don't or shouldn't prefer to listen to him than I would to Wagner. I just think you are going down a way different road than anyone else here, and I don't mean the Wagner road, I mean you are arguing for something that no one else is. IMO. :)
8)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 07:39:01 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 07:39:01 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 28, 2012, 08:27:45 AM
How can anyone imagine a choice other than Brahms? 0:)
8)
(* pounds the table *)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 07:41:29 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 07:41:29 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 01:53:13 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=19859.msg605432#msg605432)
You forgot to close the quotation marks, you were so upset, Marvin!
But, you know, Mahler was famously neurotic, wasn't he? ; )
In the words of Mahler "there was only Beethoven and Wagner...........
You forgot to close the quotation marks, you were so upset, Marvin!
But, you know, Mahler was famously neurotic, wasn't he? ; )
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 07:47:20 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 07:47:20 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on Today at 12:16:43 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=19859.msg606019#msg606019)
Well (as you indirectly observe), and the poll was not Who was more influential, Brahms or Wagner? Still, Brahms has had a greater influence than he is often credited for; and Wagnerites notoriously claim that their idol influenced everything up to and including the Wankel rotary engine. And beyond . . . .
I think the poll starter wasn't sufficiently clear, however,I never considered it to be anything other than 'whose music would you rather listen to?' Any claims that Brahms was more influential to later composers is destined to fail.
Well (as you indirectly observe), and the poll was not Who was more influential, Brahms or Wagner? Still, Brahms has had a greater influence than he is often credited for; and Wagnerites notoriously claim that their idol influenced everything up to and including the Wankel rotary engine. And beyond . . . .
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 07:49:23 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 07:49:23 AM
Quote from: starrynight on Today at 08:39:52 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=19859.msg605952#msg605952)
Man, how can you say that? The entire existence of the universe now hinges upon Wagner! In your heart, you know it is true!
I think the 'modern age' would have been ushered in whether Wagner had existed or not.
Man, how can you say that? The entire existence of the universe now hinges upon Wagner! In your heart, you know it is true!
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 07:53:36 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 07:53:36 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 01:53:13 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=19859.msg605432#msg605432)
Meistersinger is "light-hearted"? Dude, you been drinking the Kool-Aid too long! : )
In part, compass here means both variety of genres, and excellence in a wide variety of musical scale. Wagnerites are often rather too inclined to think that grandiosomania covers all the bases . . . .
Wider compass?? How much wider can it get than the Ring cycle, the ultra emorional Tristan, the lighthearted Meistersinger.
Meistersinger is "light-hearted"? Dude, you been drinking the Kool-Aid too long! : )
In part, compass here means both variety of genres, and excellence in a wide variety of musical scale. Wagnerites are often rather too inclined to think that grandiosomania covers all the bases . . . .
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 01, 2012, 07:55:27 AM
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 01, 2012, 07:55:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 01, 2012, 07:41:29 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 01:53:13 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=19859.msg605432#msg605432)In the words of Mahler "there was only Beethoven and Wagner...........
But, you know, Mahler was famously neurotic, wasn't he? ; )
:o
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 08:00:34 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 08:00:34 AM
Well, Ilaria, technically it is possible not to be neurotic, and yet to say something as narrow-sighted as There was only Beethoven and Wagner. Fellow really ought to have gotten around a bit more.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Ataraxia on March 01, 2012, 08:10:01 AM
Post by: Ataraxia on March 01, 2012, 08:10:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 01, 2012, 08:00:34 AM
Well, Ilaria, technically it is possible not to be neurotic, and yet to say something as narrow-sighted as There was only Beethoven and Wagner. Fellow really ought to have gotten around a bit more.
No, he was only slightly off. ;)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Bulldog on March 01, 2012, 08:36:11 AM
Post by: Bulldog on March 01, 2012, 08:36:11 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 01, 2012, 07:16:43 AM
I think the poll starter wasn't sufficiently clear, however, I never considered it to be anything other than 'whose music would you rather listen to?'.
Same here, but there's always at least one person who wants to look at it as an "influence" poll.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 08:42:01 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 08:42:01 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on Today at 01:10:01 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=19859.msg606045#msg606045)
The ghost of Mahler wants to buy you a drink . . . .
No, he was only slightly off. ;)
The ghost of Mahler wants to buy you a drink . . . .
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Luke on March 01, 2012, 10:18:40 AM
Post by: Luke on March 01, 2012, 10:18:40 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 04:00:01 AM
I am in a nasty mood:
http://davidsbuendler.freehostia.com/sberg.htm (http://davidsbuendler.freehostia.com/sberg.htm)
I especially love this paragraph:
In contrast to Schoenberg's characterization of Brahms as a "progressive", the great conductor Wilhelm Furtwängler wrote, 13 years earlier, in his essay entitled "Brahms and the Crisis of Our Time":
"A function in the sense of 'progress,' the music of his later years did not fulfill. With respect to the disintegrating Tristan-harmony, to the first beginnings of later polytonality etc. stood he, that ever had the purely musical universal-form in view, in opposition. There is little difference between the harmony of Brahms around the 90th year and that of Schubert in the 20th year of the same century. ... And herewith we come to that, which makes the case of Brahms meaningful for us today, which imparts to him nothing short of the most immediate topicality.
Brahms is the first great musician, in whose case historical meaning and meaning as an artistic personality no longer coincide: that this was so, was not his fault, but rather that of his epoch."
Well?
marvin
Well? Furtwangler was wrong, and Schoenberg (and many others) right. Not surprisingly, really. The musical evidence, rather than the harmony-hyperbole, bears it out. The focus on simple harmonic audacity alone will doubtless make Brahms appear relatively meek in comparison to RW (though he can be every bit as ellusive and subtle when he wishes - op 119/1, for example). A focus on motivic technique, ever-present and very rigorous counterpoint and Schoenberg's prized developing variation shows where Brahms's importance lies. It may be less showy than the Tristan chord etc but it is equally important.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Ten thumbs on March 01, 2012, 01:22:47 PM
Post by: Ten thumbs on March 01, 2012, 01:22:47 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on February 29, 2012, 02:35:49 PM
Wagner and Liszt were certainly important innovators in chromatic harmony, but there is a great deal more to modernism than pitch syntax. Both Schoenberg and Webern acknowledged Brahms as an important influence, the former in his essay, "Brahms the Progressive," and the latter in his lectures published posthumously as The Path to New Music.
and I don't see why Marvin is so excited about such harmony. Why, even Fanny Hensel used chromatic harmony and dissonance extensively, and in her own words, she was not a part of 'Young Germany'. Such things were widespread in that era and would inevitably have led to atonality, maybe even sooner. Who knows?
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Ten thumbs on March 01, 2012, 01:25:18 PM
Post by: Ten thumbs on March 01, 2012, 01:25:18 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 28, 2012, 08:53:13 AM
.......had it not been for Wagner there would be no Mahler, no Bruckner, no Debussy, no Schoenberg,
I wonder if anyone ever told their fathers. :)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 01:31:32 PM
Post by: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 01:31:32 PM
Quote from: Ten thumbs on March 01, 2012, 01:22:47 PM
and I don't see why Marvin is so excited about such harmony. Why, even Fanny Hensel used chromatic harmony and dissonance extensively, and in her own words, she was not a part of 'Young Germany'. Such things were widespread in that era and would inevitably have led to atonality, maybe even sooner. Who knows?
Some could have experimented with atonality, but none could pull it off the way Wagner did. Let's face it, Tristan und Isolde is mind-blowing!
marvin
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: North Star on March 01, 2012, 01:55:24 PM
Post by: North Star on March 01, 2012, 01:55:24 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 01:31:32 PM
Some could have experimented with atonality, but none could pull it off the way Wagner did. Let's face it, Tristan und Isolde is mind-blowing!
marvin
Yes, especially the chord: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEtJgY-qHZY
8)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: eyeresist on March 01, 2012, 05:30:42 PM
Post by: eyeresist on March 01, 2012, 05:30:42 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 03:32:51 AMThe bottom line is this, atonality (that break from romanticism and into modernism) in music was ushered in by the Liszt/Wagner camp and not by Brahms/Schubert/Mendelssohn camp.
But it is not as though common practice tonality was swept away by the modern revolution. In the end, atonal methods became part of the toolkit which still rests on the old ways. And people still write symphonies (despite modernists saying the form was obsolete), and anyone writing a symphony must acknowledge Brahms.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: marvinbrown on March 02, 2012, 01:08:24 AM
Post by: marvinbrown on March 02, 2012, 01:08:24 AM
Quote from: North Star on March 01, 2012, 01:55:24 PM
Yes, especially the chord: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEtJgY-qHZY
8)
Quote from: eyeresist on March 01, 2012, 05:30:42 PM
But it is not as though common practice tonality was swept away by the modern revolution. In the end, atonal methods became part of the toolkit which still rests on the old ways. And people still write symphonies (despite modernists saying the form was obsolete), and anyone writing a symphony must acknowledge Brahms.
"It is often remarked that there is a strong resemblance between the main theme of the finale of Brahms' First Symphony and the main theme of the finale of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Also, Brahms uses the rhythm of the "fate" motto from the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. This rather annoyed Brahms; he felt that this amounted to accusations of plagiarism," (wikipedia)............ 8)
This will be my last rebuttal on this thread.........
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2012, 03:37:17 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2012, 03:37:17 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 01, 2012, 01:31:32 PM
Some could have experimented with atonality, but none could pull it off the way Wagner did.
Point of information: Nothing that Wagner wrote is atonal.
Your adulation for his music comes across loud and clear, Marvin, but let's not attribute things to to the composer that he never done.
He didn't design the Space Shuttle, either ...
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 02, 2012, 09:06:14 AM
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 02, 2012, 09:06:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 02, 2012, 03:37:17 AM
Point of information: Nothing that Wagner wrote is atonal.
I think it's not completely right: in Tristan und Isolde, the chromatism is taken to extremes so much that it leaves the tonal structure.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Luke on March 02, 2012, 12:37:29 PM
Post by: Luke on March 02, 2012, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on March 02, 2012, 09:06:14 AM
I think it's not completely right: in Tristan und Isolde, the chromatism is taken to extremes so much that it leaves the tonal structure.
No, it really doesn't. It does fascinating, adventurous things near the borders of where tonality goes, but it doesn't cross them.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: starrynight on March 02, 2012, 01:27:50 PM
Post by: starrynight on March 02, 2012, 01:27:50 PM
Does anyone else not care whether music is considered tonal or not tonal as long as it is good? The technical change in the way people define the music isn't that important to me. Tonality has never completely gone away anyway. And even though Wagner said the symphony was dead it arguably had a more full life in the last century than opera did.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Luke on March 02, 2012, 01:45:01 PM
Post by: Luke on March 02, 2012, 01:45:01 PM
No, personally I certainly don't care. Though I also think the issues are way more complex and interesting than they've been presented here. But it's still worth getting the facts right, isn't it?
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Marc on March 02, 2012, 01:54:43 PM
Post by: Marc on March 02, 2012, 01:54:43 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 02, 2012, 01:08:24 AM
"It is often remarked that there is a strong resemblance between the main theme of the finale of Brahms' First Symphony and the main theme of the finale of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Also, Brahms uses the rhythm of the "fate" motto from the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. This rather annoyed Brahms; he felt that this amounted to accusations of plagiarism," (wikipedia)............ 8)
This will be my last rebuttal on this thread.........
I respect that choice.
I'm just curious, though.
Was Wagner never annoyed?
Did no one ever tell him about pre-runners of the famous chord?
Or did he (somewhere inside) admit or acknowledge such things himself?
Mmm .... who knows ....
Are Cosima's diary notes on August 29th of 1878 a.o. referring to this chord when she wrote that Wagner told her that he had vieles gestohlen (stolen a lot)?
Did he steal a lot from Cosima's father?
Did Wagner know Liszt's epic song Ich möchte hingeh'n (1845)?
Did he know the first movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata in E-flat, op. 31 no. 3?
Did he know Chopin's Mazurka in F-minor, op. 68 no. 4, published in 1855?
I'll leave it with that.
Let's be fair: these three blokes aren't included in this poll.
I voted for Brahms, btw.
I like his music better and, unlike Wagner, Brahms was more interested in various genres and in music for music's sake. :)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Ten thumbs on March 04, 2012, 04:11:38 AM
Post by: Ten thumbs on March 04, 2012, 04:11:38 AM
Quote from: North Star on March 01, 2012, 01:55:24 PM
Yes, especially the chord:
As Marc as instigated a hunt for the chord, I thought it amusing to do so. I must I didn't expect to find it in Hensel who was more at home with the German sixth, as in my favourite chord: G2#G3#C4#E4A4F5x from Das Jahr: March (I call this the crucifixion chord). The chord could however derive from a diminished seventh over a pedal (here C#), as for instance C3#D3#F3#A3B3#trill if one took away the trill (from Capriccio).
Anyway, here it is from Op8.3, the lied headed Lenau: two very prominent instances
bar 32: B1bb, B2bb, E4b, G4b, D5b
bar 36: G1, G2, B3b, D4b, F4, F6
The last being the climactic chord of the whole piece. Perhaps it ought to be known as the Lenau chord!
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Marc on March 04, 2012, 08:59:27 AM
Post by: Marc on March 04, 2012, 08:59:27 AM
Quote from: Ten thumbs on March 04, 2012, 04:11:38 AM
As Marc as instigated a hunt for the chord, I thought it amusing to do so. I must I didn't expect to find it in Hensel who was more at home with the German sixth, as in my favourite chord: G2#G3#C4#E4A4F5x from Das Jahr: March (I call this the crucifixion chord). The chord could however derive from a diminished seventh over a pedal (here C#), as for instance C3#D3#F3#A3B3#trill if one took away the trill (from Capriccio).
Anyway, here it is from Op8.3, the lied headed Lenau: two very prominent instances
bar 32: B1bb, B2bb, E4b, G4b, D5b
bar 36: G1, G2, B3b, D4b, F4, F6
The last being the climactic chord of the whole piece. Perhaps it ought to be known as the Lenau chord!
This Lied ohne Worte was apparently inspired by a poem of Nikolaus Lenau (1802-1850).
And yes, Hensel (and also Louis Spohr!) has been mentioned more than once in the search for 'the roots of the (in)famous Tristan chord'.
I just chose to pick three more famous composers during Wagner's lifetime.
I mean, if Wagner had known medieval music (De Machaut etc.) then he might have realized that his discovery wasn't all that revolutionary at all.
But he's not to blame for not knowing that, because his turntable and cd-player were broken, and the flames rose to his german nose and his walkman started to melt. ;D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Elgarian on March 04, 2012, 12:52:16 PM
Post by: Elgarian on March 04, 2012, 12:52:16 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 02, 2012, 03:37:17 AM
He didn't design the Space Shuttle, either ...
What?!
Right, that does it. I've cancelled my subscription to 'Weird Facts Weekly'.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: eyeresist on March 04, 2012, 05:36:05 PM
Post by: eyeresist on March 04, 2012, 05:36:05 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 04, 2012, 08:59:27 AMBut he's not to blame for not knowing that, because his turntable and cd-player were broken, and the flames rose to his german nose and his walkman started to melt. ;D
THAT's an opera he should have written.
i.e. Joan of Arc
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Marc on March 04, 2012, 08:23:22 PM
Post by: Marc on March 04, 2012, 08:23:22 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 04, 2012, 05:36:05 PM
THAT's an opera he should have written.
i.e. Joan of Arc
Yep.
I'm convinced it would have been a genuine Gesamtkunstwerk. :)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: North Star on March 04, 2012, 11:29:29 PM
Post by: North Star on March 04, 2012, 11:29:29 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 04, 2012, 08:59:27 AM
This Lied ohne Worte was apparently inspired by a poem of Nikolaus Lenau (1802-1850).
And yes, Hensel (and also Louis Spohr!) has been mentioned more than once in the search for 'the roots of the (in)famous Tristan chord'.
I just chose to pick three more famous composers during Wagner's lifetime.
I mean, if Wagner had known medieval music (De Machaut etc.) then he might have realized that his discovery wasn't all that revolutionary at all.
But he's not to blame for not knowing that, because his turntable and cd-player were broken, and the flames rose to his german nose and his walkman started to melt. ;D
But did Wagner himself think of the chord as revolutionary?
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Marc on March 05, 2012, 03:44:40 AM
Post by: Marc on March 05, 2012, 03:44:40 AM
Quote from: North Star on March 04, 2012, 11:29:29 PM
But did Wagner himself think of the chord as revolutionary?
I think he at least did think it was very important, though of course one has to be cautious with Internet sources.
Problem is, my source is a Dutch site about Franz Liszt:
http://pianolessen.eu/franz-liszt/
I will try to translate the passage to which I refer:
Both Liszt and Wagner wrote works in which the tonal modus was very difficult to find. In this regard, Wagner's Tristan und Isolde can be considered as a hightlight and this composition, alongside other opera's of Wagner, had great influence on the musical and cultural world in the 2nd half of the 19th century, up to the 'early modernists' such as Richard Strauss and Gustav Mahler, and eventually Schoenberg.
The great interest and admiration for Wagner's compositions were quite legitimate, even though many admirers were sometimes too fanatical and hysterical in their admiration. And mainly because of that Liszt's music became underexposed.
The famous Tristan chord had, with a small difference, already been heard in a rather unknown song by Liszt Ich möchte hingeh'n. Every time Wagner was reminded of this by his environment, he burst into a rage and exclaimed that only he himself had invented this chord, around which the opera "Tristan und Isolde" is built.
The more modest Liszt has never mixed in this discussion. In his friendship with Wagner, Liszt was, as in any other contact, a giver, as Wagner was in all a taker, whether friendships, love affairs or the potential to raise money was concerned.
Mind you: I'm not anti-Wagner. I had a free day today, and this morning I listened to the first act of Tannhauser and even enjoyed it. (Although I didn't feel the need to continue with act 2. ;))
But the poll was asking: Brahms or Wagner? I prefer Brahms and love his music a lot, although, to be honest, I'm not really a sucker for 19th century music.
Wagner is one of those composer whith whom I never really felt the 'click'. I'm not denying his importance, but I sometimes feel it's overdone. And in this thread there was a tendency growing like how on earth could one say that Brahms is a better composer than Wagner?. Followed by some almost Messiah-like outbursts in favour of the Bayreuth Meister. I like enthousiasm about a composer, but, in my case ;), one has to be very very careful to downplay the qualities of Brahms.
But I can also be the devil's advocate: my fave composer - by far - is Bach, but if some other fan calls the man directly sent from heaven or even almost equal to God (which happens sometimes) and downplays other great (baroque) composers, then I will protest.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 29, 2014, 06:09:57 AM
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 29, 2014, 06:09:57 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 03, 2012, 02:46:30 AM
I feel the same way. I love Brahms' chamber music (one of the great hidden secrets of classical music!) but Wagner 0:) is my main man!
You know I think that I am one of the very few people on the GMG forums who actually prefers Wagner to......YIKES!.....BEETHOVEN (my 2nd favorite composer)!
marvin
I know that this is old quote but I have to say that this post completely echoes my feelings. I too prefer Wagner over Beethoven, have Beethoven as 2nd favorite composer and I adore Brahms's chamber music.
Now, in case it's not clear from my nickname: the answer is Wagner (as much as I love Brahms).
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: bwv 1080 on April 29, 2014, 07:55:14 AM
Post by: bwv 1080 on April 29, 2014, 07:55:14 AM
Wagner
When Brahms is not writing in classical forms, I love the music - the late piano pieces most of all. In many pieces he can't seem to escape the shadow of Beethoven and Schumann - particularly the SQs and Piano Sonata. I wish he had written more works like the two Rhapsodies op 79 where he just cuts loose
Schoenberg has been criticized (unfairly IMO) as simply Brahms with wrong notes
When Brahms is not writing in classical forms, I love the music - the late piano pieces most of all. In many pieces he can't seem to escape the shadow of Beethoven and Schumann - particularly the SQs and Piano Sonata. I wish he had written more works like the two Rhapsodies op 79 where he just cuts loose
Schoenberg has been criticized (unfairly IMO) as simply Brahms with wrong notes
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: North Star on April 29, 2014, 08:49:59 AM
Post by: North Star on April 29, 2014, 08:49:59 AM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on April 29, 2014, 07:55:14 AMQuite obviously so. But what has this got to do with this poll?
Wagner
When Brahms is not writing in classical forms, I love the music - the late piano pieces most of all. In many pieces he can't seem to escape the shadow of Beethoven and Schumann - particularly the SQs and Piano Sonata. I wish he had written more works like the two Rhapsodies op 79 where he just cuts loose
Schoenberg has been criticized (unfairly IMO) as simply Brahms with wrong notes
If it makes you feel any better ::), I'm sure he did write more pieces like Op. 79, he just burned them. :-X
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 29, 2014, 10:33:20 AM
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 29, 2014, 10:33:20 AM
Both are great. Obvious banana.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: San Antone on April 29, 2014, 10:39:32 AM
Post by: San Antone on April 29, 2014, 10:39:32 AM
This poll has renewed my confidence in GMG.
;)
;)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2014, 10:58:06 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2014, 10:58:06 AM
Hah!
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Brahmsian on April 29, 2014, 11:18:28 AM
Post by: Brahmsian on April 29, 2014, 11:18:28 AM
I prefer Brahms in all categories except opera. :D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2014, 11:22:45 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2014, 11:22:45 AM
I prefer Brahms even in the category Opera $:)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Brahmsian on April 29, 2014, 11:45:56 AM
Post by: Brahmsian on April 29, 2014, 11:45:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 29, 2014, 11:22:45 AM
I prefer Brahms even in the category Opera $:)
:D
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Ken B on April 30, 2014, 04:09:10 PM
Post by: Ken B on April 30, 2014, 04:09:10 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on April 29, 2014, 10:39:32 AMYes, we dodged a chance to have to hang our heads in shame. I was worried though.
This poll has renewed my confidence in GMG.
;)
I haven't looked but I assume this is another one of the few times Sarge is wrong. Well, even Homer nods.
:)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: jochanaan on April 30, 2014, 05:56:57 PM
Post by: jochanaan on April 30, 2014, 05:56:57 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 02, 2012, 08:59:40 AMHah! :D
My name is Karl Henning, and I approve this message.
Not "or;" "and." 8)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2014, 06:18:43 AM
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2014, 06:18:43 AM
The poll is not even close because there was an exodus of Wagnerites a few years back. They have found Valhalla and will not be returning.
I voted for Brahms.
I voted for Brahms.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 01, 2014, 06:42:23 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on May 01, 2014, 06:42:23 AM
I don't think, though, that the exodus was so populous that Wagner would have matched Brahms.
Wagner's good, but he's not that good 8)
Wagner's good, but he's not that good 8)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: jochanaan on May 01, 2014, 10:27:54 AM
Post by: jochanaan on May 01, 2014, 10:27:54 AM
It would be interesting to know who voted for what. I suspect the active musicians among us voted "BANANA" in recognition that both B and W are masters without whom music would be much poorer. :)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: mn dave on May 01, 2014, 10:33:15 AM
Post by: mn dave on May 01, 2014, 10:33:15 AM
Brahgner.
Nah, just kidding. Brahms is da winnah.
Nah, just kidding. Brahms is da winnah.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2014, 09:19:41 AM
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2014, 09:19:41 AM
Quote from: Ken B on April 30, 2014, 04:09:10 PM
Yes, we dodged a chance to have to hang our heads in shame. I was worried though.
I haven't looked but I assume this is another one of the few times Sarge is wrong. Well, even Homer nods.
:)
No, I was right...again ;D Between Brahms and Wagner, the Banana is the only logical choice.
Sarge
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Ken B on May 02, 2014, 09:37:27 AM
Post by: Ken B on May 02, 2014, 09:37:27 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2014, 09:19:41 AMHmm. There is a rule lurking here I am having trouble wording pithily.
No, I was right...again ;D Between Brahms and Wagner, the Banana is the only logical choice.
Sarge
"Sarge is almost always right. Or banana."
Not quite snappy enough.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 05, 2014, 09:54:58 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on May 05, 2014, 09:54:58 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on May 01, 2014, 10:27:54 AM
It would be interesting to know who voted for what. I suspect the active musicians among us voted "BANANA" in recognition that both B and W are masters without whom music would be much poorer. :)
Yes! It was worth enduring Wagner, at the least so that we might have Elgar and Schoenberg! 8)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: jochanaan on May 06, 2014, 07:56:11 AM
Post by: jochanaan on May 06, 2014, 07:56:11 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 05, 2014, 09:54:58 AMAnd Stravinsky, whose main "influence" by Wagner was a rejection of everything he stood for. ;D (Except for two Wagner tubas in The Rite of Spring--an exceptionally curious bit of orchestration in a very curiously orchestrated composition!)
Yes! It was worth enduring Wagner, at the least so that we might have Elgar and Schoenberg! 8)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 06, 2014, 08:20:39 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on May 06, 2014, 08:20:39 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on May 06, 2014, 07:56:11 AM
And Stravinsky, whose main "influence" by Wagner was a rejection of everything he stood for. ;D (Except for two Wagner tubas in The Rite of Spring--an exceptionally curious bit of orchestration in a very curiously orchestrated composition!)
I've not looked into it . . . I wonder if that had been due to their being a normal choir within the Saisons Russes orchestra . . . .
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: kishnevi on May 06, 2014, 08:37:00 AM
Post by: kishnevi on May 06, 2014, 08:37:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2014, 09:19:41 AM
No, I was right...again ;D Between Brahms and Wagner, the Banana is the only logical choice.
Sarge
+1
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Florestan on May 06, 2014, 08:39:10 AM
Post by: Florestan on May 06, 2014, 08:39:10 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on May 01, 2014, 10:27:54 AM
It would be interesting to know who voted for what.
No surprise from me: I voted Brahms. :)
Quote
both B and W are masters without whom music would be much poorer. :)
Absolutely, but I took the question as implying "which one of them do you prefer?"
I would like to quote here (courtesy of our distinguished member Alberich) Tchaikovsky's assessment of Wagner.
And so, by way of conclusion, I should like to say something about the overall impression which this performance of Der Ring des Nibelungen has left me with. Firstly, it has left me with a vague recollection of many strikingly beautiful musical features, especially of a symphonic kind, which is very strange, given that Wagner least of all intended to write operas in a symphonic style. Secondly, it has left me with respectful admiration for the author's tremendous talent and his incredibly rich technique. Thirdly, it has left me with misgivings as to whether Wagner's view of opera is correct. Fourthly, it has left me greatly exhausted, but at the same time it has also left me with the wish to continue my study of this most complicated work of music ever written.
That pretty much sums it up for me. Had Wagner stuck with symphonic music, he'd have been one of my favorite composers. :)
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 06, 2014, 08:46:31 AM
Post by: Karl Henning on May 06, 2014, 08:46:31 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 06, 2014, 08:39:10 AM
I would like to quote here (courtesy of our distinguished member Alberich) Tchaikovsky's assessment of Wagner.
And so, by way of conclusion, I should like to say something about the overall impression which this performance of Der Ring des Nibelungen has left me with. Firstly, it has left me with a vague recollection of many strikingly beautiful musical features, especially of a symphonic kind, which is very strange, given that Wagner least of all intended to write operas in a symphonic style. Secondly, it has left me with respectful admiration for the author's tremendous talent and his incredibly rich technique. Thirdly, it has left me with misgivings as to whether Wagner's view of opera is correct. Fourthly, it has left me greatly exhausted, but at the same time it has also left me with the wish to continue my study of this most complicated work of music ever written.
Wonderful! And sharply insightful.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Ken B on May 06, 2014, 11:43:36 AM
Post by: Ken B on May 06, 2014, 11:43:36 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 06, 2014, 08:46:31 AMIndeed.
Wonderful! And sharply insightful.
As for the "symphonic" part, I have Cooke's lectures on the Ring, illlustrated with sections from Solti. As a layman I found them fascinating.
Title: Re: POLL Brahms or Wagner?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 07, 2014, 06:18:04 AM
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 07, 2014, 06:18:04 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 06, 2014, 08:39:10 AM
I would like to quote here (courtesy of our distinguished member Alberich)
That was actually a pretty good joke. Whatever, I am flattered anyway, thank you very much.