(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Joseph_Haydn.jpg/220px-Joseph_Haydn.jpg)
Jeffrey Smith invited me to share my experience of listening to all versions I own of all Haydn symphonies, in Hoboken order. I thought the Haydn Haus was not the appropriate subject and it would be more interesting to create a topic on Haydn symphonies, just as topics exist on his quartets and keybord sonatas.
Let's not forget, though, the other existing topics on favourite cycles (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21044.0.html), on the London symphonies sets (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=5194.0), and on the =http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=10824.0Dorati set (http://=http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=10824.0Dorati%20set).
So, here is a place to discuss the discography of Haydn symphonies, whether you want to share your favourites, or ask for advice :)
About my own listening project, and the methodology :
- I have listened to all symphonies, with 2 to 14 versions available for each. This means I only had one complete set, the Dorati & Philharmonia Hungarica. I will probably listen to Russell Davies and Adam Fischer someday, but I preferred to have a maximum of different interpreters during the overall process, otherwise I'm afraid I could have lost interest quite fast...
- I had other almost-full cycles though, mainly Hogwood's and Goodman's. And I was very surprized that this comparison led me to reevaluate my opinion about Goodman, and, frankly, to judge many Hogwood recordings underwhelming, and sometimes really barely interesting at all.
- I also had many cycles of the Paris and London symphonies, plus anthologies by Pinnock (Sturm & Drang), Brüggen (Sturm & Drang, Paris, London), Harnoncourt (recordings with Concentus + with Concertgebouw), Weil... I still have to listen to a few Paris and mostly London cycles (Jochum, Minkowski, Abbado, Davis, Kuijken DHM), but I listened to most others (including Karajan, Bernstein, Beecham, Szell's incomplete cycle with redundant recordings...), and anyway it is quite understandable that the task is more difficult with these last 12 symphonies.
- Edit: Since then, I listened to the following additions: Paris symphonies by Harnoncourt; London symphonies by Kuijken; Fey's cycle vol. 1-11; Solomon's recordings; and a bunch of separate recordings of some symphonies (see names in the list for the best of them).
- In general I tried to be quite neutral regarding interpretative approach, or at least not to disqualify a version because it has a continuo, when it is quite unneccessary and has been proven quite wrong by musicologists. I prefer a version with disputable choices but with a convincing result in terms of technical quality and musical "speech".
- I didn't try to define each time the "best" version, but to evaluate how each succeeded... This means that there can be two or more "best" versions, and also that the "best" versions I mention can be quite weak actually if no other is better (for instance in symph. 28, 34, 40, 66... none is really convincing).
So, now that I am almost finished here are my favourite versions for each symphony. Of course I don't say I am "right", I don't even say I would agree with myself if I did the comparison again, but I still tried to make choices on criteria that are not entirely individual taste. And you can see trends that might be of interest.
1. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
2. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
3. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
4. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
5. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
6. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
7. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien /// Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
8. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
9. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
10. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
11. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
12. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
13. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
14. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
15. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
16. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
17. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
18. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
19. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
20. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
21. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
22. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
23. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
24. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
25. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
26. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
27. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
28. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
29. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
30. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
31. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
32. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
33. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
34. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
35. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
36. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
37. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
38. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
39. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
40. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
41. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
42. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
43. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
44. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
45. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien /// Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
46. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
47. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
48. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
49. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Gottfried von der Goltz & Freiburger Barockorchester
50. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
51. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
52. Sigiswald Kuijken / La Petite Bande /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik /// Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
53. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
54. Christopher Hogwood / AAM (2nd version of the symphony)
55. Hermann Scherchen / Wiener Symphoniker
56. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
57. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
58. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
59. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
60. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
61. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
62. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
63. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
64. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
65. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
66. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
67. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
68. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
69. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
70. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
71. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
72. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
73. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
74. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
75. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
76. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
77. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
78. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
79. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
80. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
81. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
82. Herbert von Karajan / Berliner Philharmoniker /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
83. Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
84. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
85. Guy van Waas / Les Agrémens
86. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
87. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica & Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
88. Wilhelm Furtwängler / Berliner Philharmoniker
89. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
90. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
91. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century
92. Sigiswald Kuijken / La Petite Bande
93. Thomas Beecham / Royal Philharmonic Orchestra /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest
94. Wilhelm Furtwängler / Wiener Philharmoniker /// Pau Casals / Marlboro Festival Orchestra
95. Pau Casals / Marlboro Festival Orchestra /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
96. Christopher Hogwood / AAM /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
97. George Szell / Cleveland Orchestra (1957) /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
98. Ferenc Fricsay / RIAS-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
99. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century
100. Ferenc Fricsay / RIAS-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin /// Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest
101. Arturo Toscanini / NBC Symphony Orchestra /// Fritz Reiner (and "his Symphony Orchestra") /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
102. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic 1962 /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
103. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest
104. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
105. (Sinfonia Concertante) Wiener Staatsopernorchester / Hermann Scherchen
107. (Symphonie "A") Christopher Hogwood / AAM
108. (Symphonie "B") Christopher Hogwood / AAM
Favourite cycles for :
- Paris symphonies : 1. Harnoncourt / 2. Weil / 3. Bernstein / 4. Kuijken / 5. Brüggen / 6. Goodman & Karajan ex aequo / 8. Dorati & Fey ex aequo.
- London symphonies : ...
If I had to recommend someone what to buy for a start, I would say without reserve the Pinnock set, the Weil set with Tafelmusik, and both sets by Harnoncourt on Teldec. These are the overall best Haydn symphonies first buys, IMHO.
Goodman is great in general (despite the continuo, which sounds real out of place in later symphonies), the only issue is that you have to buy each CD separately...
The Brüggen Sturm & Drang, Paris and London symphonies have just been released again (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6110381?iampartner=nc8) : here are some of the finest Haydn readings I have heard, but some other takes are by comparison not very good (the set actually mixes live and studio recordings with 2 different orchestras, made during a long time span).
And if I had to recommend only one CD, one recording, one symphony even, to listen if you have never heard a Haydn symphony, without any shadow of a doubt I'd say : Symphony no. 95, Pau Casals, Marlboro Festival Orchestra. The symphony 94 (recorded the next day) is also incredible, but I think in the 95 Casals manages to do something rare (and it makes this recording one of my all-time favourites), which is to reveal how a score than could appear a little ordinary (Papa Haydn, etc, etc) is truly a real gem, one of the best symphonies ever composed. Also, it is overwhelming to hear how this great artist could make an orchestra sound as if he was playing everything himself...
Frankly, I'm not joking, it is one of the absolute best recordings I have ever heard (so far). Released on CD in Japan, contact me for more information on this delicate subject.
(http://virginvinylrecords.com/store/images/9000/r9246.jpg)
Thanks. I have one subset of Dorati...covering the ones numbered 40/50 and thereabout...I would have to go dig it out for particulars. I suspect overall he is about the same level as Davies and Fischer, although of the three I probably prefer Davies.
Interesting that Harry has about the same opinion of Hogwood as you, rather a minority opinion. I like him in Haydn. But I also like most of the other contenders....a plethora of riches.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 19, 2014, 04:35:01 PMI suspect overall he is about the same level as Davies and Fischer, although of the three I probably prefer Davies.
I've never heard the whole set, and until a couple months ago, I had never heard any. But then the local classical station played Dorati's #82. Dorati easily bests both Davies and Fischer. I am looking for the lowest cost way to get my hand on Doarti's cycle.
Don't mistake me : Hogwood has done very fine recordings, as you can see I've cited him a few times. But in a lot of the symphonies, the recording sounds like it was done in a hurry, without many rehearsals. The strings in particular lack phrasing and articulation, and they are even frankly bad at more than one moment. Take for instance symphony 8, the wide and reverberated acoustics are masking many imprecisions that I find quite unacceptable...
On the other hand, some of the symphonies are really very well played by the AAM & Hogwood.
Unfortunately, also, Hogwood's best recording is in symphonies 76-77, it was recorded by Decca but released by the BBC and not included in the box sets, which is a shame and not really easy to understand.
About Dorati, not all symphonies are excellent, but a few of them are, and in general the quality of his readings is very good. It is most of the time not far behind the favourites I mentioned...
Quote from: Todd on October 19, 2014, 04:43:53 PM
I've never heard the whole set, and until a couple months ago, I had never heard any. But then the local classical station played Dorati's #82. Dorati easily bests both Davies and Fischer. I am looking for the lowest cost way to get my hand on Doarti's cycle.
My Dorati set does not include 82; it is devoted to the middle symphonies, and I do not think he sounded remarkably superior there.
Very interesting, I hope I will find time and opportunity to check some of your recommendations. I do not have all Goodman and Hogwood recorded and my complete Box is Fischer's, not Dorati's (have the LPs, but cannot play them atm), but about a half dozen of Goodman's and three 3-disc-boxes of Hogwood's plus 94/96.
I think I share your fondness for Harnoncourt in some of the early middle (like 30,31,53,69). I got rid of Weil's "Paris" a few years ago, which might have been a mistake, but then I preferred the different aspects of Harnoncourt's, Bernstein's, Fey's and Marriner's rather different approaches to Weil's rather straight and lean readings. Goodman is also very good in 82 (less so for me in 84 and 85, I do not have the 2nd disc).
Have you heard any of Solomons for the "Sturm and Drang"? Only a few are easily findable on CD, but 39, 45,48 and 49 may be and they are well worth it. It is very "lean and mean", but very energetic.
I think I found Hogwood o.k. in the strange 34, but have you heard Fey here? This may be one of the most convincing ones.
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 19, 2014, 04:12:41 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Joseph_Haydn.jpg/220px-Joseph_Haydn.jpg)
Jeffrey Smith invited me to share my experience of listening to all versions I own of all Haydn symphonies, in Hoboken order. I thought the Haydn Haus was not the appropriate subject and it would be more interesting to create a topic on Haydn symphonies, just as topics exist on his quartets and keybord sonatas.
Let's not forget, though, the other existing topics on favourite cycles (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21044.0.html), on the London symphonies sets (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=5194.0), and on the =http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=10824.0Dorati set (http://=http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=10824.0Dorati%20set).
So, here is a place to discuss the discography of Haydn symphonies, whether you want to share your favourites, or ask for advice :)
Thanks for taking the time to do this! This is very interesting. I'm not sure why there's a picture of George Washington at the top of the page, though... :D
Most of my recordings are Fischer, but I'd like to try HIP sometime again.
Come join GMG to rewrite the history of music:
- Mozart was a fraud.
- Haydn was George Washington.
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 19, 2014, 04:12:41 PM
So, here is a place to discuss the discography of Haydn symphonies, whether you want to share your favourites, or ask for advice :)
Very interesting! Thanks for starting this thread Cosi! :)
Quote from: Jo498 on October 20, 2014, 12:00:16 AM
Very interesting, I hope I will find time and opportunity to check some of your recommendations. I do not have all Goodman and Hogwood recorded and my complete Box is Fischer's, not Dorati's (have the LPs, but cannot play them atm), but about a half dozen of Goodman's and three 3-disc-boxes of Hogwood's plus 94/96.
I think I share your fondness for Harnoncourt in some of the early middle (like 30,31,53,69). I got rid of Weil's "Paris" a few years ago, which might have been a mistake, but then I preferred the different aspects of Harnoncourt's, Bernstein's, Fey's and Marriner's rather different approaches to Weil's rather straight and lean readings. Goodman is also very good in 82 (less so for me in 84 and 85, I do not have the 2nd disc).
Have you heard any of Solomons for the "Sturm and Drang"? Only a few are easily findable on CD, but 39, 45,48 and 49 may be and they are well worth it. It is very "lean and mean", but very energetic.
I think I found Hogwood o.k. in the strange 34, but have you heard Fey here? This may be one of the most convincing ones.
- I haven't heard Solomons's recordings yet, it is very annoying they have not been available for such a long time. They are on my list (I will edit my previous post if things change after new listenings).
- I'm also aware I have to listen to Fey. His edition is half the way, so I'll wait for a complete set to be released before listening to it entirely, but I'll try a few symphonies soon and will listen to 34 then ;)
While this is mostly not based on recent listening, I will just list a few favorites in the symphonies where I remember them or have some older notes. I really should listen to more Haydn again (did a lot around 2009, but more recently not so much).
6. Harnoncourt, also Freiburger Barockorchester
7. Harnoncourt, also Freiburger Barockorchester
8. Harnoncourt, also Freiburger Barockorchester
21 Hogwood, Fischer
22. Hogwood, Orpheus CO
26. Solomons, Fischer
30. Harnoncourt
31. Harnoncourt, Hogwood
34. Fey
39. Solomons, Fischer
40. Fey
42. Pinnock
44. Pinnock
45. Solomons, Scherchen
46. Pinnock
47. Pinnock
48. Solomons
49. Solomons, Goltz & Freiburger Barockorchester
52. Pinnock
53. Harnoncourt
59. Solomons, Harnoncourt
60. Harnoncourt, Rattle
63. Orpheus CO
69. Harnoncourt
70. Goodman, Fey, Rattle/Birmingham
73. Harnoncourt
78. Goodman, Fischer
80. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra, Freiburger Barockorchester
81. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
82. Goodman, Harnoncourt, Bernstein
83. Harnoncourt, Bernstein
84. Fey, Marriner
85. Fey, Harnoncourt, Marriner
86. Fey, Bernstein, Harnoncourt
87. Bernstein, Marriner
88. Furtwängler, Scherchen (extreme...), Fey
89. Dorati, Rattle/Berlin, Wolf
90. Dorati, Rattle/Berlin (have to re-listen to Brüggen's I found it too slow in the 1st movement)
91. Dorati, Wolf, Jacobs
92. Rosbaud, Jacobs, Fey
93. Dorati, Jochum/Dresden, Harnoncourt
94. Harnoncourt, Brüggen
95. Harnoncourt, Szell, Dorati
96. Hogwood, Harnoncourt, Wolf
97. Harnoncourt, Szell, Bernstein
98. Jochum/Dresden, Brüggen, Harnoncourt
99. Gielen, Brüggen
100. Harnoncourt
101. Brüggen, Harnoncourt
102. Klemperer, Brüggen
103. Brüggen (with different coda of finale), Harnoncourt, Kuijken
104. Gielen, Rosbaud, Brüggen, Kuijken
105. (Sinfonia Concertante) Kuijken, Rattle/Berlin
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 20, 2014, 01:25:01 AM
- I haven't heard Solomons's recordings yet, it is very annoying they have not been available for such a long time. They are on my list (I will edit my previous post if things change after new listenings).
- I'm also aware I have to listen to Fey. His edition is half the way, so I'll wait for a complete set to be released before listening to it entirely, but I'll try a few symphonies soon and will listen to 34 then ;)
This could take a while; some of Fey's are sometimes available cheaply that's basically how a acquired a half dozen or so.
Of Solomons' there were two 3-disc-boxes on CD, I think. I only have two single discs in a cheaper series with 26,39,45,48,59 which are all quite good, but I never found the boxes to prices I was willing to pay, so I'll be content with what I have. There is not really a lack of good recordings of the "Sturm and Drang". The "problem" are rather the first about 30 (except for the "Tageszeiten") and the 60s/70s numbers.
I do not know about the mores of this forum, but I think it is better to post a new message with additions than to edit the original posting. Otherwise reaction on the first message (like mine and your answer) will be very confusing to later readers.
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 19, 2014, 04:51:42 PM
Don't mistake me : Hogwood has done very fine recordings, as you can see I've cited him a few times. But in a lot of the symphonies, the recording sounds like it was done in a hurry, without many rehearsals.
The mischief-maker in me wants to suggest that perhaps, in this way, he is recreating the original circumstances of the music's creation ;)
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 19, 2014, 04:51:42 PM
About Dorati, not all symphonies are excellent, but a few of them are, and in general the quality of his readings is very good. It is most of the time not far behind the favourites I mentioned...
BBC Building a Library did Haydn Symphony 44 last February (link to download page) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/bal/all)
and Dorati was rather dismissed as "fondly remembered pioneering stuff but we have all moved on since then".
Quote from: karlhenning on October 20, 2014, 03:22:03 AM
The mischief-maker in me wants to suggest that perhaps, in this way, he is recreating the original circumstances of the music's creation ;)
Well, around 2000, in the Netherlands I had some discussions with fans AND members of Leusink's Holland Boys Choir who defended the lousy (IMHO) recordings of Bach's cantatas by claiming that Bach's own performance circumstances were lousy too and that he complained about the quality of his choristers, so: Leusink's performances were truly HIP and authentic.
But I don't think that's what Hogwood had in mind.
I only know his BBC disc (nos 76 & 77) and I think it's a fine recording, but I'm not really a Haydn-connoisseur and my collection is very modest. From the discs I have I like Brüggen and Kuijken for HIP/PI, and Colin Davis for non-HIP/PI.
Indeed, one always wants to do the music justice, rather than honoring any imperfections of an initial performance.
I have not yet listened to all of the Hogwood set, but I have found nothing to complain of at press time.
The DRD box, too, has been excellent in all that I have as yet heard from it.
I have not embarked on a Haydn listening project yet, but I will give you some preliminary assessments. I have 2 complete sets--the Dorati and the Davies. I used to have the Maerzendorfer set on MHS LP's, but that's long gone. Of the three, the Dorati is infinitely preferable. The Davies is pretty routine; the last disc containing 103 and 104 is the only one that stands head and shoulders above the rest. If its every issued as a separate, you should get it, but don't bother with the set. Maerzendorfer was pretty good, but he played most of the trios in unaccountably slow tempos. I have listened to some partial sets and I have three sets of the London Symphonies I have yet to listen to--in alphabetical order, Kuijken, Minkowski, and Solti. The London sets I have listened to are those by Colin Davis, Harnoncourt, and Jochum. I also have and have listened to partial sets by Klemperer and Szell. I also have lots of single discs, some of which are by the same conductor--partial sets, in other words, both in and out of the London sets. These include a few Fischers, Thomas Fey, Weill, Hogwood. I also have and have listened to the Kuijken set of 25, 52, 53, and 82-92.
I will say unhesitatingly that my favorite set is that by Kuijken. If the set of the London symphonies is anything like the set of pre-Londons I have listened to--and he seems to be a pretty consistent conductor--I will have to say he is head and shoulders above all the others I have listened to, at least.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 20, 2014, 03:22:03 AM
The mischief-maker in me wants to suggest that perhaps, in this way, he is recreating the original circumstances of the music's creation ;)
;D
Quote from: aukhawk on October 20, 2014, 04:52:17 AM
BBC Building a Library did Haydn Symphony 44 last February (link to download page) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/bal/all)
and Dorati was rather dismissed as "fondly remembered pioneering stuff but we have all moved on since then".
Well, I'm not far to agree with them. That's why Dorati is almost never among the best versions for each symphony, but he usually remains a solid choice, and charming, I would say. Then of course some of his recordings are better than others too, even the acoustics are sometimes excellent and some others below par.
Quote from: Marc on October 20, 2014, 05:00:14 AM
Well, around 2000, in the Netherlands I had some discussions with fans AND members of Leusink's Holland Boys Choir who defended the lousy (IMHO) recordings of Bach's cantatas by claiming that Bach's own performance circumstances were lousy too and that he complained about the quality of his choristers, so: Leusink's performances were truly HIP and authentic.
Well of course that's just stupid, and I also wouldn't compare Hogwood's work to such persons.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 20, 2014, 02:28:36 AM
This could take a while; some of Fey's are sometimes available cheaply that's basically how a acquired a half dozen or so.
That's what I had in mind, yes.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 20, 2014, 02:28:36 AM
Of Solomons' there were two 3-disc-boxes on CD, I think. I only have two single discs in a cheaper series with 26,39,45,48,59 which are all quite good, but I never found the boxes to prices I was willing to pay, so I'll be content with what I have. There is not really a lack of good recordings of the "Sturm and Drang". The "problem" are rather the first about 30 (except for the "Tageszeiten") and the 60s/70s numbers.
I agree with you about this problem. Also, I don't know why, but symphony 81, which is truly admirable, is very rare on record.
About Solomons, I am thinking about finding the boxes released around 1990, I prefer to own them all $:)
Quote from: Jo498 on October 20, 2014, 02:28:36 AM
I do not know about the mores of this forum, but I think it is better to post a new message with additions than to edit the original posting. Otherwise reaction on the first message (like mine and your answer) will be very confusing to later readers.
Well, I'll not edit completely my first list, and try to make it clear if I radically change something in it.
Quote from: RebLem on October 20, 2014, 05:41:48 AM
I have not embarked on a Haydn listening project yet, but I will give you some preliminary assessments. I have 2 complete sets--the Dorati and the Davies. I used to have the Maerzendorfer set on MHS LP's, but that's long gone. Of the three, the Dorati is infinitely preferable. The Davies is pretty routine; the last disc containing 103 and 104 is the only one that stands head and shoulders above the rest. If its every issued as a separate, you should get it, but don't bother with the set. Maerzendorfer was pretty good, but he played most of the trios in unaccountably slow tempos. I have listened to some partial sets and I have three sets of the London Symphonies I have yet to listen to--in alphabetical order, Kuijken, Minkowski, and Solti. The London sets I have listened to are those by Colin Davis, Harnoncourt, and Jochum. I also have and have listened to partial sets by Klemperer and Szell. I also have lots of single discs, some of which are by the same conductor--partial sets, in other words, both in and out of the London sets. These include a few Fischers, Thomas Fey, Weill, Hogwood. I also have and have listened to the Kuijken set of 25, 52, 53, and 82-92.
I will say unhesitatingly that my favorite set is that by Kuijken. If the set of the London symphonies is anything like the set of pre-Londons I have listened to--and he seems to be a pretty consistent conductor--I will have to say he is head and shoulders above all the others I have listened to, at least.
Kuijken's London Symphonies are something I really plan to find, despite the high price. I've always been fond of his Paris symphonies. The only issue I have with these recordings when comparing them to others is the sound, with a certain lack of detail, and limited dynamics. Also, taking symphonies one by one, of course other, other recent HIP versions have sometimes done better, for a number of reasons.
Also, I generally found Kuijken's recordings on Virgin were better with the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment than with La Petite Bande. But I have already heard the two last symphonies with La Petite Bande on DHM, and in my memory these are excellent performances, with excellent sound quality.
Quote from: Marc on October 20, 2014, 05:00:14 AM
Well, around 2000, in the Netherlands I had some discussions with fans AND members of Leusink's Holland Boys Choir who defended the lousy (IMHO) recordings of Bach's cantatas by claiming that Bach's own performance circumstances were lousy too and that he complained about the quality of his choristers, so: Leusink's performances were truly HIP and authentic.
I know this explanation -by fans and members of Leusink's troupe- can easily be ridiculed; but I think it would be better understood, if were expressed as: Bach's works never were thought or composed to be a "danty", lavish show.
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 20, 2014, 05:42:26 AM
I agree with you about this problem. Also, I don't know why, but symphony 81, which is truly admirable, is very rare on record.
Yes, the Orpheus almost wins by default here (I try to find their 79 for and affordable price). I do not remember much about Fischer's (he is rather good in some of the "70s", his weakest are 82-104 and a few early ones, generally he is much better with the works recorded later. The difference between e.g. 21 (very good) and 22 (meh, recorded much earlier) is striking. There is a Naxos 81 which is o.k., but not great (I do not know Dorati's).
Quote
About Solomons, I am thinking about finding the boxes released around 1990, I prefer to own them all
I believe there were even more on LP that never appeared on CD. I bid once or twice on Ebay on the 3-CD-boxes, but was not successful, so I basically try to forget about them. Supposedly the 45 and 48 are among the best of his recordings and I have those.
Unfortunately this stuff will never be reissued as physical discs, we can count ourselves lucky, if we get downloads.
I am somewhat surprised at the praise Kuijken gets. I think his 103/104 is very strong, but I was not so impressed by his Paris set. To save some space I threw out three Paris sets, although they were all pretty good: Kuijken, Weil and Wolf, because I found that for HIP Harnoncourt and maybe Brüggen were more interesting and for modern chamber orchestra I slightly preferred Marriner to Wolf.
Maybe I should revisit Kuijken and Weil in other pieces (because with the Paris sets I have, I am rather happy, they are certainly the best served Haydn on disc, even more good recordings than the London set).
Kuijken's London set is far and away my favourite. It is lean and energetic, but never rushed. The tempos seem very natural to me and there are no "gimmicks", just pure Haydn played with verve and sensitivity. The playing and recording are first rate ... transparent and incisive, which gives a lot of impact to the exciting development sections and sensitivity in the slow movements. There is not a dud amongst them. My original favourites were Harnoncourt and Szell, but Kuijken now tops the list (except for Szell in Symp 97).
I also have Kuijken's Paris symphonies: They are good but I find them a little inferior to his Londons.
For the rest, I prefer mainly Fischer, with Dorati from time to time. Dorati's version of no. 90 is exceptional .... tremendous music making.
For the Sturm and Drang, Pinnock is excellent, but Solomons (if you can find it) is even better, with 39, 44 and 45 absolutely stunning.
Quote from: Gordo on October 20, 2014, 06:05:24 AM
I know this explanation -by fans and members of Leusink's troupe- can easily be ridiculed; but I think it would be better understood, if were expressed as: Bach's works never were thought or composed to be a "danty", lavish show.
Do you mean "dainty"? If you do who does Bach cantatas daintily?
Quote from: Mandryka on October 21, 2014, 08:13:51 AM
Do you mean "dainty"? If you do who does Bach cantatas daintily?
I was really thinking of "danty" (with quotation marks), as defined here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=danty; but "dainty" is better when used as synonym of utterly refined.
Examples? Herreweghe and Suzuki.
Quote from: Gordo on October 21, 2014, 09:47:06 AMExamples? Herreweghe and Suzuki.
Herreweghe's
Bach is "small; b@tch like" to you? ???
Quote from: North Star on October 21, 2014, 10:05:21 AM
Herreweghe's Bach is "small; b@tch like" to you? ???
:D
Quote from: Gordo on October 21, 2014, 09:47:06 AM
I was really thinking of "danty" (with quotation marks), as defined here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=danty; but "dainty" is better when used as synonym of utterly refined.
Examples? Herreweghe and Suzuki.
Never heard danty - is it US English? I note that it also means "Something that is considered to be superbly awesome, ridiculously amazing, and outright spectacular. Commonly used when referring to pears."
I think these entries in urban dictionary are taking the piss - fakes.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 21, 2014, 12:09:29 PM
Never heard danty - is it US English? I note that it also means "Something that is considered to be superbly awesome, ridiculously amazing, and outright spectacular. Commonly used when referring to pears."
I think these entries in urban dictionary are taking the piss - fakes.
From OED:
Quote† dant, n.1
View as: Outline |Full entry
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Etymology: Compare obsolete Dutch dante ‘ambubaia, mulier ignava’.
Obs.
Thesaurus »
‘A profligate woman’ (Halliwell).
a1529 J. Skelton Tunnyng of Elynour Rummyng in Certayne Bks. (?1545) 515 In came another dant She had a wide wesant.
So definitely not a US invention, or fake.
a1529 J. Skelton Tunnyng of Elynour Rummyng in Certayne Bks. (?1545) 515 In came another dant She had a wide wesant.
That HAS to be a joke. What the hell's a wesant?
Quote from: Mandryka on October 21, 2014, 12:37:08 PM
a1529 J. Skelton Tunnyng of Elynour Rummyng in Certayne Bks. (?1545) 515 In came another dant She had a wide wesant.
That HAS to be a joke. What the hell's a wesant?
Same as weasand 8)
Now chiefly dial.
1. The œsophagus or gullet.
gullet
a. The passage in the neck of an animal by which food and drink pass from the mouth to the stomach; the œsophagus.
How is Makarras for the London symphonies compared to Bruggen? I see he gets very highly praised on arkiv/classics today but there are more recommendations for Bruggen here.
Quote from: elotito on October 24, 2014, 07:55:11 AM
How is Makarras for the London symphonies compared to Bruggen? I see he gets very highly praised on arkiv/classics today but there are more recommendations for Bruggen here.
As far as I know, Mackerras only recorded 31,45, 100, 101, 103 and 104 (on Telarc.)
I listened to their recordings of 100, 101 and 103 today.
Bruggen is sometimes like Harnoncourt, pulling out details in a way that detracts from the flow of the music.
Mackerras doesn't do that. His 100 and 103 seem to have more weight and momentum than Bruggen's performances.
Neither is my first choice for 100,101, 103 or 104 but I'm happy to have both sets of performances. Lots of very fine Haydn performances around now.
Quote from: Old Listener on October 24, 2014, 09:07:57 PM
Neither is my first choice for 100,101, 103 or 104 but I'm happy to have both sets of performances.
What are your preferences for these symphonies? Thanks.
Quote from: alkan on October 20, 2014, 08:45:25 AM
Dorati's version of no. 90 is exceptional .... tremendous music making.
I just managed to listen to this one, your description is spot on, wow.
Quote from: alkan on October 25, 2014, 07:44:56 AM
What are your preferences for these symphonies? Thanks.
100 - Klemperer on EMI the second movement reminds me of an English slow march. I can visuallize the soldiers pushing their feet ahread horizontally before setting them down.
101 - no single favorite. Ones that I like include Goodman/Hanover Band (with a fine 102 and a wonderful Windsor Castle Overture), McGegan/Philharmonia Baroque, Abbado/COE and Monteux/VPO. I like Mackerras and Bruggen others as well. I've got 22 recordings and almost all are very enjoyable to listen to. 101 is well served.
102 - Klemperer on EMI
103 - Markevich (dry ambience but very clear)
104 - Kuijken about the only recording by Kuijken that I like.
while I'm at it
92 - Szell / Cleveland - My favorite by a long distance. The Smithsonian CD with the Schubert 9th symphony seems to have a bit better sound than the Essential Classics CD.
93 - Szell/Cleveland and Jochum / LPO for the dancing 1st movement
94 - Szell/Cleveland
95 - Reiner/ Chicago, Szell/Cleveland. I often listen to Klemper/EMI too.
96 - Abbado/COE (along with the best Sinfonia Concertante I've heard) Szell is about an equal favorite.
97 - Szell / Cleveland
98 - no clear favorite but Szell in the lead.
99 - Szell but I'm not sure that any recording has done full justice to this work.
A note about the Szell CDs. A recent set with 93-98 had significantly improved sound over the Essential Classics CDs or the Odyssey CDs. It made a difference for 95 and 98 in particular. I don't know about the source for the recent bargain box.
A couple of decades ago, there weren't so many good Haydn recordings around and many were out of print and unavailable. We have lots of great recrdings to choose from now and most recordings are available in some way.
Quote from: Old Listener on October 25, 2014, 11:23:07 AM
100 - Klemperer on EMI the second movement reminds me of an English slow march. I can visuallize the soldiers pushing their feet ahread horizontally before setting them down.
101 - no single favorite. Ones that I like include Goodman/Hanover Band (with a fine 102 and a wonderful Windsor Castle Overture), McGegan/Philharmonia Baroque, Abbado/COE and Monteux/VPO. I like Mackerras and Bruggen others as well. I've got 22 recordings and almost all are very enjoyable to listen to. 101 is well served.
102 - Klemperer on EMI
103 - Markevich (dry ambience but very clear)
104 - Kuijken about the only recording by Kuijken that I like.
while I'm at it
92 - Szell / Cleveland - My favorite by a long distance. The Smithsonian CD with the Schubert 9th symphony seems to have a bit better sound than the Essential Classics CD.
93 - Szell/Cleveland and Jochum / LPO for the dancing 1st movement
94 - Szell/Cleveland
95 - Reiner/ Chicago, Szell/Cleveland. I often listen to Klemper/EMI too.
96 - Abbado/COE (along with the best Sinfonia Concertante I've heard) Szell is about an equal favorite.
97 - Szell / Cleveland
98 - no clear favorite but Szell in the lead.
99 - Szell but I'm not sure that any recording has done full justice to this work.
A note about the Szell CDs. A recent set with 93-98 had significantly improved sound over the Essential Classics CDs or the Odyssey CDs. It made a difference for 95 and 98 in particular. I don't know about the source for the recent bargain box.
A couple of decades ago, there weren't so many good Haydn recordings around and many were out of print and unavailable. We have lots of great recrdings to choose from now and most recordings are available in some way.
Hmmm .... I understand your choice of pseudonym ! A big majority of the older generation of conductors.
Szell is one of my favourites for the early London symphonies. I have an old set of CD's but I think I may need to invest in the remastered set. Klemperer is a surprise, since I would never have thought he possessed the vitality, energy and sense ofhumor for Haydn. I guess I need to check out some of his recordings. The same goes for Markevich for no. 103, which is one of my absolute favourite symphonies. I have never found a completely satisfactory recording of the last movement .... I am looking for one with a lot of nervous tension and an implacable tempo, especially in the switches between the forte passages and the following repeated note piano sections.
I guess that our tastes will not match, since I am a big fan of Kuijken for the Londons. And although I like the Szell 92, I find Kuijken excellent here as well.
I too have several recordings of 101, but I am still looking for one with an overwhelming finale. Haydn really builds up the tension in the approach to the culmination of the development, and when it arrives I really feel that the brass should be blare out and make a real impact. Out of your 22 versions, is there one that is like this ?
Finally, if you like Reiner in no 95, I guess that you must love his 88 on the same CD! This is one of the great Haydn discs IMHO.
Quote from: elotito on October 25, 2014, 09:07:38 AM
I just managed to listen to this one, your description is spot on, wow.
Yes, it really hit me sideways when I first heard it. I think No 90 is the pinnacle of Dorati's series. It has a wonderful mix of grandeur and energy in the outer movements and the orchestra is terrific. Everything is just right.
Dorati's No 91 is not bad either ..... :)
Whatever the merits are of Kuijken's London Symphonies, I find them too painfully out of tune to listen to (except for the two "A major" ones, Nos. 98 and 102). I don't know what tuning system he's using, but it's not one that works for my ears.
Quote from: alkan on October 25, 2014, 01:53:15 PM
Hmmm .... I understand your choice of pseudonym ! A big majority of the older generation of conductors.
Szell is one of my favourites for the early London symphonies. I have an old set of CD's but I think I may need to invest in the remastered set. Klemperer is a surprise, since I would never have thought he possessed the vitality, energy and sense ofhumor for Haydn. I guess I need to check out some of his recordings. The same goes for Markevich for no. 103, which is one of my absolute favourite symphonies. I have never found a completely satisfactory recording of the last movement .... I am looking for one with a lot of nervous tension and an implacable tempo, especially in the switches between the forte passages and the following repeated note piano sections.
I guess that our tastes will not match, since I am a big fan of Kuijken for the Londons. And although I like the Szell 92, I find Kuijken excellent here as well.
I too have several recordings of 101, but I am still looking for one with an overwhelming finale. Haydn really builds up the tension in the approach to the culmination of the development, and when it arrives I really feel that the brass should be blare out and make a real impact. Out of your 22 versions, is there one that is like this ?
Finally, if you like Reiner in no 95, I guess that you must love his 88 on the same CD! This is one of the great Haydn discs IMHO.
Well, I've been behind in thoroughly sampling the recordings of conductors whose work I admire. I've been caught up on Szell, Reiner, Klemperer, Walter and Monteux recordings for a while. More recently, I've explored Sandor Vegh's Mozart, Haydn and Schubert recordings as conductor. I'm almost done collecting Wand's recordings that interest me. I've sampled the Abbado COE recordings and the Orchestra Mozart recordings. I have another Hogwood Haydn box to get. I'm getting closer to being caught up.
I do appreciate and listen to musicians who are still alive and working. For example, the Bilson/Gardiner Mozart concerti recordings are favorites for me.
--
Haydn 103 - I listened to Bruggen and Mackerras yesterday and Markevich today. All seemed to have "a lot of nervous tension and an implacable tempo" in the last movement.
---
Haydn 101 - I've listened to 5 performances in 2 days but I wasn't listening for the particular thing. What struck me about the Goodman performance was how it danced from the start of the second movement to the end of the symphony.
As I listened to the Briuggen and Mackerras yesterday, I was struck by how they build to a big, dramatic climax.
---
Haydn 88 - Another work with many very good recordings. The Reiner is one such but not head and shoulders over others for me. Obscure ones I like: Jane Glover / London Mozart Players has a wonderful sense of Haydn style (80, 83, 84, 87 and 89 are equally good.) Hans Peter Frank / Helsingsborg SO (89 and 90 are very good too.)
The only recording of 88 that I can find no merit in is by Furtwangler coupled with a Schubert 9th symphony. Many people used to rave about how profound it was. I'd give both works a try every so often and never heard anything worthwhile on those recordings.
I have the Haydn anthology by Frans Brüggen, which I enjoy usually very much. But I think that the Sturm ind Drang symphonies with the Orch, of the Age of Enlighthenment are not as good as the Paris and London ones done with his Orchestra of the 18th Century.
I also have two discs with Trevor Pinnock with Sturm ind Drang, which I like very much. But when it comes to some of them I actually like very much a CD I haven't seen listed yet in this thread: Symphonies 44, 45, and 49 by Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra. I find them (even) more energetic than Trevor Pinnock's account.
Any other thoughts on Koopman's Haydn, and especially about other CDs from this series?
Quote from: JaapT on October 27, 2014, 02:49:58 PM
I have the Haydn anthology by Frans Brüggen, which I enjoy usually very much. But I think that the Sturm ind Drang symphonies with the Orch, of the Age of Enlighthenment are not as good as the Paris and London ones done with his Orchestra of the 18th Century.
I also have two discs with Trevor Pinnock with Sturm ind Drang, which I like very much. But when it comes to some of them I actually like very much a CD I haven't seen listed yet in this thread: Symphonies 44, 45, and 49 by Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra. I find them (even) more energetic than Trevor Pinnock's account.
Any other thoughts on Koopman's Haydn, and especially about other CDs from this series?
It is not a series, Koopman recorded symphonies 44, 45 & 49 and also 83-85 for Erato, at the very beginning of the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, but that's all.
I haven't heard 83-85 yet. About the three earlier symphonies, I think these are good early HIP accounts, but by comparison with more recent attempts, I feel it lacks a little in spontaneity and vigour... Also, the sound is not very precise, with wide and vague acoustics. I found symphony 44 a little better than the 2 others, though.
As an anecdote, I have heard Koopman conduct Haydn many years ago (symphonies I don't remember, and also a choral piece, I don't which). It was with a modern orchestra (the Orchestre philharmonique de Radio France) and it was a really dull performance, but it just felt like there was no alchemy at all between him and the musicians. A failed partnership...
I finished listening to the London Symphonies and completed my above list. I also listened to a few of these by Kuijken (but I stil have to purchase the complete set) and he is really each time among the best versions, easily.
I still have the Sinfonia Concertante and the two Symphonies A and B to listen too, plus a few of the Solomons recordings, the 4 last symphonies by Markevitch, and most of Fey's recordings... So, still a few things to hear and a few editions to make to my list.
Well, I listened to my 5 versions of the Sinfonia Concertante Hob. I:105 tonight. And what a beautiful piece of music this is ! I knew it but didn't remember how beautiful it is. It is certainly one of my favourite works by Haydn, and not less beautiful than Mozart's violin-viola Sinfonia concertante.
Hermann Scherchen's version is really incredible (in the Westminster orchestral big Korean box). Vivid stereo sound, and magnificent soloists, really, all that in the most comfortable and brilliant viennese sound (but with clarity too, thanks to Scherchen's efforts). A really wonderful CD.
Among other versions, there's one by Toscanini in 1948 and it is not bad at all, warm and full of spirit, with excellent soloists.
Wallfisch, Dorati and even Harnoncourt are less satisfying...
Quote from: Discobolus on October 29, 2014, 03:37:05 PM
Well, I listened to my 5 versions of the Sinfonia Concertante Hob. I:105 tonight. And what a beautiful piece of music this is ! I knew it but didn't remember how beautiful it is. It is certainly one of my favourite works by Haydn, and not less beautiful than Mozart's violin-viola Sinfonia concertante.
Hermann Scherchen's version is really incredible (in the Westminster orchestral big Korean box). Vivid stereo sound, and magnificent soloists, really, all that in the most comfortable and brilliant viennese sound (but with clarity too, thanks to Scherchen's efforts). A really wonderful CD.
Among other versions, there's one by Toscanini in 1948 and it is not bad at all, warm and full of spirit, with excellent soloists.
Wallfisch, Dorati and even Harnoncourt are less satisfying...
Here's the
Sinfonia Concertante if anyone wants to hear it:
Haydn - Sinfonia Concertante in B flat major, Hob. I:105Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra / Adam Fischerhttps://www.youtube.com/v/snNYJjNo1F8
Chamber Orchestra of the 50th Collegium Musicum / Hiroshi Kodamahttps://www.youtube.com/v/5ZTuWScLZfU
NBC Orchestra / Arturo Toscaninihttps://www.youtube.com/v/keKurc8tK7I
Orchestra of the 18th Century / Frans Brüggenhttps://www.youtube.com/v/4tj0zz6KmSI
The Philadelphia Orchestra / Eugene Ormandyhttps://www.youtube.com/v/PsY5DVFF2hk
Slovak Chamber Orchestra / Bohdan Warchalhttps://www.youtube.com/v/3OcMChZOnyA
[? / ?] – but it's a nice version, whoever it is
[Update: I have it on very good authority – thanks, Discobolus (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=profile;u=9572)! – that it's Philharmonica Hungarica / Antal Doráti]https://www.youtube.com/v/DLV2hhcTEdI
Thanks, great findings, I didn't have a few of these :)
And I had forgotten the Brüggen version :o
I had actually forgotten about this whole CD, with symphony 88 and 89. Great, more Haydn to listen to !!!
Quote from: Discobolus on October 29, 2014, 04:27:52 PM
Thanks, great findings, I didn't have a few of these :)
Mighty good.
Quote from: Discobolus on October 29, 2014, 04:27:52 PMAnd I had forgotten the Brüggen version :o
I had actually forgotten about this whole CD, with symphony 88 and 89. Great, more Haydn to listen to !!!
I would love to find out who it is playing the last version. It's probably my favourite of all the ones I've heard so far. I've just checked all available versions on Spotify (http://www.spotify.com/au/), but unfortunately none of them matched. I think I'll have to a dig a little deeper. I'm now in dog-with-a-bone mode. I'm determined to find out who that is!
According to the timing and a quick comparison, this is the Dorati version. Good, not great. I slightly prefer Brüggen. I find the dialogue between soloists in Toscanini really better. And Scherchen is really miles above...
Quote from: Discobolus on October 29, 2014, 04:57:31 PM
According to the timing and a quick comparison, this is the Dorati version. Good, not great. I slightly prefer Brüggen. I find the dialogue between soloists in Toscanini really better. And Scherchen is really miles above...
I like how urbane the Dorati performance is. Thanks for doing the detective work, Discobolus. (This page (http://classical-music-online.net/en/production/18573) confirms it.)
I'm itching to hear the Scherchen version now.
Quote from: Discobolus on October 29, 2014, 04:57:31 PM
According to the timing and a quick comparison, this is the Dorati version. Good, not great. I slightly prefer Brüggen. I find the dialogue between soloists in Toscanini really better. And Scherchen is really miles above...
I've found a preview of the Scherchen version here (http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/haydn-sinfonia-concertante-haydn-symphony-no-100-military-symphony-24-96-download-p749.php). Wow. It's full of beans. (I think I could safely use the word "zippy" to describe it.)
Thanks, Discobolus, for pointing me in the direction of Scherchen's version. Splendid.
It's a pity that the Scherchen was not included in the DG-Haydn-Box from 10 years ago or so. I am not sure if I want to spend money for a 2nd party transfer download of an almost 50 year old recording.
I love the beautiful 2nd movement, but overall I am not as fond of the piece as of many other Haydn symphonies. It is still very good, but comparably lightweight. Probably should listen to Brüggen's; I have had the box for some time but not listened to all of it (as I had the London set before I got the big box).
As for some other pieces: Does anyone have heard the Salonen/Stockholm disc from the 80s with 22, 82, and 78? I am especially interested in 78. Or should I get Orpheus for 78?
Another one that seems interesting is Rattle with 22, 86 and 102, any comments on this one? I rather like Rattle's disc with 60, 70, 90 and also the Berlin recordings of 88-92 + Concertante. But of course I do not really need another 86 or 102...
Quote from: Jo498 on October 30, 2014, 02:02:00 AM
[....]
As for some other pieces: Does anyone have heard the Salonen/Stockholm disc from the 80s with 22, 82, and 78? I am especially interested in 78. Or should I get Orpheus for 78?
[....]
I can't compare Salonen to the Orpheus disc, because I dunno the latter. I only have the Adam Fischer/Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra recording (Nimbus, re-released on Brilliant Classics) to compare.
The Salonen/Stockholm disc is beautifully recorded and no. 78 is played as Haydn described it: beautiful, elegant and not too long. Adam Fischer's performance is more grim and stiff, especially in the outer movements, with slower tempi to add to that grimness. Summarized: Salonen is more Pinnock and Fischer is more Harnoncourt. ;)
I'm happy with both of them.
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 29, 2014, 04:27:52 PM
Thanks, great findings, I didn't have a few of these :)
And I had forgotten the Brüggen version :o
I had actually forgotten about this whole CD, with symphony 88 and 89. Great, more Haydn to listen to !!!
And perhaps more. A few more sinfonia concertante recordings not yet mentioned:
Abbado / COE - still my favorite. Soloists and orchestra fit together better than in other recordings I've heard. The outer movements feel right and the second movement conveys the beauty in the music.
Spivakov / Moscow Virtuosi (on a CD with Kissin playing the dickins out of the Haydn piano Concerto in D major). - more emphasis on the soloists than the orchestra.
Pople / London Festival Orchestra - very good humored but not high powered.
Sandor Vegh / Camerata Academica Salzburg - slower with warm sound. Enjoyable but not a top choice for me.
Simon / BPO - in a box set with 88-92. I like all the performances in the set. 90 especially.
Barenboim / ECO - I've had this on LP for 40+ years. I've always admired how the Haydn performance sang.
Maezendorfer / Vienna CO - I'm listing this for completeness. I wouldn't recommend it.
Hogwood / Kammer Orchestra Basel - found on Youtube. An album cover suggests that a CD or LP recording exists.
I just downloaded a recording by Abbado / Orchestra Mozart on the Claves label (from Amoeba.com.) I have not listened to more than samples yet.
Discobolus (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=profile;u=9572) recently asked me what I thought of Hermann Scherchen's conducting of Haydn's symphonies. Because I've never heard any of Scherchen's recordings (nope, none at all), I set about rectifying this dreadful oversight by finding a disc with Haydn and Scherchen on it.
I found a disc featuring Haydn's Military and Farewell Symphonies coupled with the Sinfonia Concertante, performed by the Vienna State Opera Orchestra with Hermann at the helm.
I had a listen, and this was my response:
*******************************************
I must state from the outset that I have very little in the way of Haydn symphony recordings. I have the London and Paris Symphonies (both sets by Brüggen) and a few discs of miscellaneous symphonies. As for those symphonies on the Scherchen CD, I have one Sinfonia Concertante (The Chamber Orchestra of Europe / Sir Roger Norrington (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=59298)), one Military Symphony (Royal Philharmonic Orchestra / Kurt Sanderling (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=573553)), and don't have the Farewell Symphony. Given that my current listening interests have been of composers who aren't Haydn, I haven't heard those discs in ages. So this will feel new to me.
These are my first impressions:
Symphony No. 100 "Military"
http://www.youtube.com/v/ReQe5dB-JF8
1st movement: The elegance in the playing is wonderful. The recording's not much chop (there's a glare in the violins when they start playing loudly), but oh my, the phrasing from the orchestra. Glorious. This is nice, old school Haydn, and I'm enjoying it enormously – glassy violins and all.
I was surprised at the occasional mistakes (at 0:50 a violin in the left channel plays a wrong note, at 3:11/3:12 a violin in the left channel plays a sharp note, at 5:08 violins in the right channel are sharp), but overall the orchestra plays as one. As far as I know, I've never heard Scherchen's conducting before (he didn't record much of my favourite composers). What I like about his conducting here is how he achives unanimity of ensemble, and how he has a definite vision of what the music is supposed to sound like. (In this case it's supposed to sound like what I guess was the mid-1950s view of Haydn: traditional central European.)
2nd movement: That phrasing. Beautiful. From 2:18-2:26 the percussion section sounds like they're having a whale of a time, banging away on their instruments. Fun. And I like the half-hearted cymbal clash at 3:23 (it's played a lot quieter than the previous clashes – I wonder if it's marked that way in the score).
The orchestra sounds a little unsteady at 4:33 (that may just be because the horn in the right channel is a little flat).
4:50-5:04: Cute bassoon in the left channel. (Did the bassoonist miss a note at 5:03, or is that in the score?)
Actually, that entire section featuring the interplay with the winds (4:50-5:25) is lovely.
I'll try to be a bit briefer with my responses from here on in.
6:12: Mendelssohn! (http://youtu.be/z0wmzoHd6yo (http://youtu.be/z0wmzoHd6yo))
Overall impression of the second movement: I'd rate it VNI (Very Nice Indeed).
3rd movement: The way this starts is a good working definition of the word "rollicking".
The more I'm listening Scherchen's conducting, the less like other conductors from the '50s it sounds. Scherchen's Haydn is light on its feet.
4th movement: There sure is some frisky playing in this movement. I have no idea how it's played in other versions, but this one sounds as if the orchestra's playing as fast as it can. It's tremendously exciting.
1:28: Flat note from a cello in the left channel.
1:44/1:45: I think the timpani in the right channel is as close to perfect for this moment as is possible (for this performance).
3:12: Well, I certainly wasn't expecting the triangle and bass drum here. Haydn knows how to make something exciting even more exciting.
Splendid.
Symphony No. 45 "Farewell"
http://www.youtube.com/v/WWwTJWD-51M
1st movement: This is music played with furrowed brow. It reminds me of Beethoven in his "relentless" mode.
That was quick. It's already time for the second movement.
2nd movement: This is very pleasant and refined. Haydn has his wig on for this movement.
3rd movement: Another pleasant and refined movement.
4th movement: More pleasantness and refinement. This is very nice indeed.
I thought it was lovely that each player said cheerio as he left ("Auf wiedersehen" at 4:08, 4:10, then plenty more times until the end of the movement). The sound of a chair moving (at 4:12 in the left channel), footsteps (4:18-4:22 and elsewhere), and even the sound of an instrument case closing (5:25) were nice touches. I dare say Hermann Scherchen was the last one to say "Auf wiedersehen", at 8:11.
For me, the little lapses in playing (e.g., a slightly flat violin in the left channel from 4:39-4:41, dodgy intonation from the violins in the left channel from 4:45-4:51, the horn coming in late at 4:52) just added to the charm of this movement.
Unfortunately, at 7:33 the right channel drops out. (According to the All Music Guide (http://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-symphonies-nos-45-48-92-94-100-101-mw0001967022), "...owing to a defect in the master tape, the last 45 seconds of it is rendered in mono...")
Overall, though, this last movement is what I think classical music record reviewers tend to call "treasureable". I loved it.
Sinfonia Concertante
1st movement: I was a little disappointed that something came after the Farewell Symphony. (With all those "Auf wiedersehen"s, I would have much preferred the Farewell to end the disc.)
The end of the Farewell had put me in a reverie, but as soon as the Sinfonia Concertante started I was yanked out of it by an orchestra loudly banging away at their instruments. (I know it wasn't all that loud, but it sure felt like it.)
Trivia: At 0:05 there's a little thump in the left channel. And at 0:18/0:19 there's a little glitch. (I think that's on the master tape, not the CD.)
0:43-0:52: That's a vey busy, and weird-sounding, viola churning away in the background there. Or maybe it's a cello, playing very high. Actually, the more this movement goes on, the more I'm inclined to think it's a cello. The sound of the cello in the treble region (e.g., 2:19-2:21) has that odd sound I heard earlier. I guess it's a cello.
Hmm. I'll try not to get hung up on the sound of instruments here. (Note to self: Just enjoy the music, Peter.)
There's some nice interplay between the solo instruments in this opening movement.
However, I feel compelled to say that I'm not totally enjoying Scherchen's ultra-brisk interpretation of this first movement. I'd prefer the orchestra to slow down a little so I can savour the various concertante parts.
2nd movement: That's better. Not a lot better, but better.
The cello's slightly insecure intonation from 1:18-1:47 is bothering me a bit.
I like the bassoon sneaking in a bit of concertante-ness from 2:04-2:07.
When the orchestra opens out with that lovely cantabile playing (3:04-3:14) it feels like a big musical hug from Haydn.
3rd movement: I like the tempo and forthright playing of this last movement. I think the way Scherchen approaches this movement is just right.
5:15/5:16: Wow, that's a woozy horn note in the right channel. (This is what I think happened: The horn guy plays a flat note, quickly realises his mistake, and moves the note up to the proper one, hoping no-one will notice.)
*******************************************
And that's what I thought on first hearing.
More Scherchen please.
Quote from: Marc on October 30, 2014, 03:47:29 AM
The Salonen/Stockholm disc is beautifully recorded and no. 78 is played as Haydn described it: beautiful, elegant and not too long. Adam Fischer's performance is more grim and stiff, especially in the outer movements, with slower tempi to add to that grimness.
I can agree with your description, but after listening to the Salonen CD one and a half times or so I am not that happy with it. I find it often too fast and rather lightweight overall. In the #78 I clearly prefer Fischer, I think. I had forgotten how good this one was. I might go for a more thorough comparison (my 3rd one is Goodman's).
As I have not exactly finished my Haydn symphonies listening project yet, I listened to Solomons recordings, 36 symphonies mostly available through average rips on Youtube, but I tried to ignore issues that evidently are a consequence of this aspect.
I understand why, around 1980-82, these recordings were well received. L'Estro Armonico is not a period instruments ensemble, but a chamber orchestra with a lighter sound than people were used to then, an insistence on the detail, without much legato. Still, today, it sounds tefchnically a little weak, a few sections (horns are usually very fragile, and lower string sections sound spineless, as they do on most Hogwood recordings by the way) really make the whole thing sound a little amateurish at times. Some symphonies are better than others though.
On the pure matter of interpretation, the impression is quite fresh, elegant, pleasant. But there are more recent, tense, detailed, technically satisfying recordings, and I don't really see how Solomons' could be considered competitive anymore when compared to Pinnock or Harnoncourt. Nice, good readings, and a useful addition to the discography for a few symphonies where the choice is scarce (between Dorati/Fischer/DRD and Hogwood). But not much more.
Now Fey will be my last stop on this trip :)
Has no one mentioned the supremely elegant recordings of the last six London symphonies by Mogens Wöldike and the Vienna State Opera Orchestra?
[asin]B0000023B2[/asin]
Originally issued on Vanguard LPs, and later--all-too-briefly--available on cd. Long out of print, alas, and offered at exorbitant prices whenever someone does decide to part with a used copy.
The first two movements of the Military:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POGlfT90wRE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POGlfT90wRE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hq9oFL1lpI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hq9oFL1lpI)
And the glorious adagio of No. 102:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMTp0hLkcz4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMTp0hLkcz4)
Quote from: Discobolus on November 13, 2014, 06:37:46 AM
L'Estro Armonico is not a period instruments ensemble, but a chamber orchestra with a lighter sound than people were used to then, an insistence on the detail, without much legato.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91BBxxkIOgL._SL1500_.jpg)
Not sure where you heard that... ??
8)
Well, that was my impression. Then it's a very timid way to play these instruments... And the horns really don't sound natural (well, they mostly sound bad anyway...).
Comparing older "period instruments" recordings and recent HIP ones (with or without period instruments) is sometimes a funny experience, and it proves the important element is not so much the instruments, but the choices in terms of phrasing, articulation, etc.
Thanks anyway :)
Quote from: Discobolus on November 13, 2014, 01:07:16 PM
Well, that was my impression. Then it's a very timid way to play these instruments... And the horns really don't sound natural (well, they mostly sound bad anyway...).
Comparing older "period instruments" recordings and recent HIP ones (with or without period instruments) is sometimes a funny experience, and it proves the important element is not so much the instruments, but the choices in terms of phrasing, articulation, etc.
Thanks anyway :)
Yes, I don't disagree with that. The results obtained by the true pioneers are certainly not the same of modern PI performances. And not only in the playing, but in the recording techniques too.
My opinion doesn't matter, of course, one way or another, but for me, the musicianship carries these performances far past any shortcomings in sound or recording. I have all of them, I bought the 9 disks which had never been released by CBS, remastered to CD by Haydn House. In some cases, they are the only alternative to Hogwood, and in at least one case (Symphony 63, 'La Roxelane' (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-music-part-1-.html)) they provide the alternative version performance which enables you to hear both authentic orchestrations (on PI, that is, which is all I care about).
I know you make allowances for older recordings which are not PI, which have similar issues, usually of sound. Since I don't do that, I don't make a special pleading for these to have the same forbearance. I will just quietly enjoy them, over here in the corner.... :D
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2014, 01:18:29 PM
Yes, I don't disagree with that. The results obtained by the true pioneers are certainly not the same of modern PI performances. And not only in the playing, but in the recording techniques too.
My opinion doesn't matter, of course, one way or another, but for me, the musicianship carries these performances far past any shortcomings in sound or recording. I have all of them, I bought the 9 disks which had never been released by CBS, remastered to CD by Haydn House. In some cases, they are the only alternative to Hogwood, and in at least one case (Symphony 63, 'La Roxelane' (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-music-part-1-.html)) they provide the alternative version performance which enables you to hear both authentic orchestrations (on PI, that is, which is all I care about).
I know you make allowances for older recordings which are not PI, which have similar issues, usually of sound. Since I don't do that, I don't make a special pleading for these to have the same forbearance. I will just quietly enjoy them, over here in the corner.... :D
8)
As I said, I tried to completely forget all sound characteristics here, since I heard rips that didn't do justice to the originals anyway. The sound is not the issue here.
I do agree with you though, these recordings are quite enjoyable, pleasant. And they are really valuable because most of these symphonies are not that well recorded (and I don't find Solomons usually inferior to Hogwood, or not very much if it is the case).
Thanks for pointing out symphony no. 63, it seems it is the only Solomons recording I had missed ! I'll listen to that in a minute :)
Edit : done ! Indeed, an essential recording and much better than Dorati in version 1. And one of the best of Solomons' by the way. I would have hated not to know it ! Thanks again (and for the excellent summary in your article too).
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2014, 01:18:29 PM
Yes, I don't disagree with that. The results obtained by the true pioneers are certainly not the same of modern PI performances. And not only in the playing, but in the recording techniques too.
My opinion doesn't matter, of course, one way or another, but for me, the musicianship carries these performances far past any shortcomings in sound or recording. I have all of them, I bought the 9 disks which had never been released by CBS, remastered to CD by Haydn House. In some cases, they are the only alternative to Hogwood, and in at least one case (Symphony 63, 'La Roxelane' (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-music-part-1-.html)) they provide the alternative version performance which enables you to hear both authentic orchestrations (on PI, that is, which is all I care about).
I know you make allowances for older recordings which are not PI, which have similar issues, usually of sound. Since I don't do that, I don't make a special pleading for these to have the same forbearance. I will just quietly enjoy them, over here in the corner.... :D
in a few recordings, the sheer sound of the orchestra and soloist sound exactly right for the work. i often feel that when listening to many of the solomons recordings. the bilson/gardiner mozart pc recordings are another example.
solomons 39, 45, 48 and 59 are unbeatable for me. love those high horns in 48.
Quote from: jfdrex on November 13, 2014, 12:02:52 PM
Has no one mentioned the supremely elegant recordings of the last six London symphonies by Mogens Wöldike and the Vienna State Opera Orchestra?
Originally issued on Vanguard LPs, and later--all-too-briefly--available on cd. Long out of print, alas, and offered at exorbitant prices whenever someone does decide to part with a used copy.
old friends from decades ago and still very enjoyable to listen too.
some are in a couple of the mp3 only bach guild big boxes available very cheap on amazon.
Of Solomons' I have only heard the 6 easily (some time ago) available on CD: 26,39,45,48,49,59. "Timid" is about the last attribute I would apply. Sure, the ensemble is rather small and sounds small and chamberlike, but there is no lack of horns in 48 or 39. Overall I find them among the most "edgy" performances I know, especially in the fast movements. Pinnock is, of course, much smoother, more polished and also very good, but lacks that nervous edginess I find compelling in several of these pieces.
This might not be the best approach to later, more "relaxed" symphonies like 63 and I am not going out of my way to get 3rd party transfers or something like that, but I am quite glad that I have the ones I have.
Cross-posting this in the Haydn's House and this thread as it is relevant to the topic.
There has been no discussion in this thread of Goberman. Is he just of historical interest as a pioneer recording Haydn's symphonies?
I noticed that there is a pre-release notice of Goberman's Haydn Symphonies (14 cds) at Amazon.jp. I did not come across much about him here at GMG and understand that his recordings have been available (cd-r?) from the Haydn.house.
http://www.haydnhouse.com/max_goberman.htm (http://www.haydnhouse.com/max_goberman.htm)
According to the Amazon.UK blurb below it appears as if the Sony release is a new remastering of those recordings? Could anybody expand our knowledge about Goberman's Haydn? :)
Feb 9, 2015 at Amazon JP - available for pre-order
http://www.amazon.co.jp/Max-Goberman-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B00PCCX0NA (http://www.amazon.co.jp/Max-Goberman-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B00PCCX0NA)
listed at Amazon UK
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Max-Goberman-The-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B00PCCX0NA (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Max-Goberman-The-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B00PCCX0NA)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71XXtF28F5L._SL1500_.jpg)
from Amazon UK
"Just over 50 years after his untimely death at the age of only 51, Sony Classical is proud to make available once again the pioneering recordings of Haydn symphonies which the American conductor Max Goberman made in Vienna in the early 1960s and which, had he lived, would have formed part of the first ever complete recording of the great Austrian composer's symphonic works.
Initially released on LP by Goberman's own subscription label, the Library of Recorded Masterpieces, and originally packaged in deluxe gatefold sleeves, these historic recordings not only boasted state-of-the-art 3-track stereo sonics and authentically idiomatic playing by the Vienna State Opera Orchestra, but also took advantage of the latest musicological research to present startlingly fresh reinterpretations of these classic masterpieces in a lively, slimmed-down style that foreshadowed the historically informed period-instrument performances of today.
Born in Philadelphia in 1911, and a student of both Leopold Auer (violin) and Fritz Reiner (conducting), Max Goberman was one of the most promising and enterprising American maestros of his time, equally at home in the concert hall, the opera house, the ballet theatre, on Broadway and in the recording studio. Having joined the Philadelphia Orchestra as a violinist while still in his teens, he soon formed his own orchestra, the New York Sinfonietta, which became noted for its adventurous programming. He later became chief conductor of both New York City Opera and Ballet Theatre (forerunner to American Ballet Theatre), while enjoying a parallel career on Broadway as musical director for such hit shows as Billion Dollar Baby, Where's Charley?, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn and, most notably, Bernstein's West Side Story.
But Goberman was also an entrepreneur, founding his own Library of Recorded Masterpieces label with the aim of recording the complete orchestral works of Vivaldi and the complete symphonies of Haydn for sale to subscribers by mail order. Sadly, he had only managed to record 75 of Vivaldi's concertos and 45 of Haydn's symphonies before dying from a heart attack on New Year's Eve 1962.
A few of Goberman's Haydn recordings were later released on CBS's Odyssey label, but with severely compromised sound, the bizarre decision having been taken to hold back the centre channel of the 3-track master tapes, thus obscuring much of the woodwind and brass detail that made the original LRM releases so special. Newly remastered from the original 3-track tapes wherever they were available, Sony Music's new 14-CD set thus restores these historic recordings to pristine condition and general circulation for the very first time."
Wow, I've never heard of Max Goberman or his cycle before. Some of the LP transfers are on YouTube, however!
http://www.youtube.com/v/T_00SjCeEeE
Quote from: Brian on November 14, 2014, 09:48:06 AM
Wow, I've never heard of Max Goberman or his cycle before. Some of the LP transfers are on YouTube, however!
http://www.youtube.com/v/T_00SjCeEeE
I actually like this! (Alternatively, I have not been listening to Haydn enough lately! :P)
Quote from: Brian on November 14, 2014, 09:48:06 AM
Wow, I've never heard of Max Goberman or his cycle before. Some of the LP transfers are on YouTube, however!
Quote from: Moonfish on November 14, 2014, 10:42:12 AM
I actually like this!
So do I. In fact, I prefer it to Fey and Goodman's Firsts. Fischer, though, rules here. He and his band are utterly magnificent in these early (numbered) Symphonies.
Sarge
I love that ! It shows its age but it is really pleasant ! I'll have to get this set for sure !
Quote from: Moonfish on November 14, 2014, 09:36:37 AM
from Amazon UK
But Goberman was also an entrepreneur, founding his own Library of Recorded Masterpieces label with the aim of recording the complete orchestral works of Vivaldi and the complete symphonies of Haydn for sale to subscribers by mail order. Sadly, he had only managed to record 75 of Vivaldi's concertos and 45 of Haydn's symphonies before dying from a heart attack on New Year's Eve 1962.
I count only 41 symphonies on this page:
http://www.haydnhouse.com/Max_Goberman.htm (http://www.haydnhouse.com/Max_Goberman.htm)
I really liked that performance a lot, too.
Quote from: NLK1971 on November 14, 2014, 12:49:19 PM
I count only 41 symphonies on this page:
http://www.haydnhouse.com/Max_Goberman.htm (http://www.haydnhouse.com/Max_Goberman.htm)
Maybe Sony came across some additional source material?
Ah, just noticed they're all listed on the Amazon UK page under see all items...
Nos. 27/34/37/107 seem to be the additions.
The Leslie Jones (Nonesuch) and Max Goberman (Odyssey) were already 'oldies' when I started collecting Haydn in the mid-seventies. They do have a mix of snap and warmth that, to this day, are endearing to the haydnian. We, seasoned ones, know that Papa is anything but monolithic in his music making and so should be their discographic realizations. Therefore, some exploration and lots of duplication may be necessary to understand and appreciate these gems.
Right now I'm proceeding slowly thorough the 13-disc Frans Brüggen box. The first disc of symphonies 47, 46, 26 and 49 with the Orchestra of the 18th Century. I find them surprisingly mellow, at least when compared to other versions II own.
About ten years ago, I purchased this, praised to the heavens by the Gramophone ~
[asin]B0000041AR[/asin]
~ but found it wanting. Well played, of course, and with that distinctive Concertgebouw sound, but lacking something in the way of individuality and elan. So I listed it for sale on Amazon. And waited... and waited... for a few years... and even lowered the price a few times. But nobody bought it.
So, a couple of weeks ago, not only did I de-list it--I bought its mate (very cheaply), just to balance things out ??? ;) ~
[asin]B0000041AQ[/asin]
And so I've been listening to volume 1... And am just as unimpressed with it as I was with volume 2.
Am I alone in feeling that Davis's Concertgebouw performances of the London symphonies fall far short of Beecham, Bernstein, Jochum, Harnoncourt, et al?
And does anyone want to buy those two volumes off of me? :D :laugh:
Quote from: jfdrex on November 18, 2014, 08:41:32 AM
About ten years ago, I purchased this, praised to the heavens by the Gramophone ~
[asin]B0000041AR[/asin]
~ but found it wanting. Well played, of course, and with that distinctive Concertgebouw sound, but lacking something in the way of individuality and elan. So I listed it for sale on Amazon. And waited... and waited... for a few years... and even lowered the price a few times. But nobody bought it.
So, a couple of weeks ago, not only did I de-list it--I bought its mate (very cheaply), just to balance things out ??? ;) ~
[asin]B0000041AQ[/asin]
And so I've been listening to volume 1... And am just as unimpressed with it as I was with volume 2.
Am I alone in feeling that Davis's Concertgebouw performances of the London symphonies fall far short of Beecham, Bernstein, Jochum, Harnoncourt, et al?
And does anyone want to buy those two volumes off of me? :D :laugh:
Yep! :) I kid. If I didn't already own both, I'd take them. I find Davis better than those you listed, but perhaps we like different things in the music.
Davis is among the London sets I still have to listen to :) But I've heard very contrasting opinions on this cycle...
While I'm still listening to Fey's recordings, I've finished Harnoncourt's Paris symphonies. And they are simply extraordinary. Just a tad formal sometimes, but so beautiful you can't ever regret any moment of it. By far the best Paris symphonies I've heard. Precise order of the Paris sets would now be : 1. Harnoncourt / 2. Weil / 3. Bernstein / 4. Kuijken / 5. Brüggen / 6. Goodman & Karajan ex aequo / 8. Dorati.
I've updated my list (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23654.msg839815.html#msg839815).
Harnoncourt's Paris Symphonies are indeed very, very special. Not to be thrown off by the wayside are the Fischer, Ansermet and Dutoit versions. Goodman, Jones and Sanderling are worth their salt. Menuhin is an also-ran I'm afraid. I concur with Discobolus: Harnoncourt, Weil and Bernstein take the prize.
Quote from: Discobolus on November 18, 2014, 09:10:55 AM
Davis is among the London sets I still have to listen to :) But I've heard very contrasting opinions on this cycle...
While I'm still listening to Fey's recordings, I've finished Harnoncourt's Paris symphonies. And they are simply extraordinary. Just a tad formal sometimes, but so beautiful you can't ever regret any moment of it. By far the best Paris symphonies I've heard. Precise order of the Paris sets would now be : 1. Harnoncourt / 2. Weil / 3. Bernstein / 4. Kuijken / 5. Brüggen / 6. Goodman & Karajan ex aequo / 8. Dorati.
I've updated my list (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23654.msg839815.html#msg839815).
Ugggh. Kuijken, the scourge of Paris! :)
Quote from: Discobolus on November 18, 2014, 09:10:55 AM
I've updated my list (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23654.msg839815.html#msg839815).
And I see you haven't added Fey to the list anywhere! Interesting.
I need to give the Harnoncourt Paris another try, apparently; one listen to the Bear scared me back to Weil and Bernstein for the past year. Harnoncourt is very eccentric in that work.
And, in their several ways, Weil and Lenny are great with "Papa."
Quote from: Discobolus on November 18, 2014, 09:10:55 AM
While I'm still listening to Fey's recordings, I've finished Harnoncourt's Paris symphonies. And they are simply extraordinary. Just a tad formal sometimes, but so beautiful you can't ever regret any moment of it. By far the best Paris symphonies I've heard. Precise order of the Paris sets would now be : 1. Harnoncourt / 2. Weil / 3. Bernstein / 4. Kuijken / 5. Brüggen / 6. Goodman & Karajan ex aequo / 8. Dorati.
My Paris ranking:
1-Fey
2-Bernstein
3-Harnoncourt
4-Weil
Sarge
Quote from: Brian on November 19, 2014, 04:47:12 AM
And I see you haven't added Fey to the list anywhere! Interesting.
I need to give the Harnoncourt Paris another try, apparently; one listen to the Bear scared me back to Weil and Bernstein for the past year. Harnoncourt is very eccentric in that work.
I am currently listening to Fey, I'll add him after this if I feel it is "deserved". Don't worry I'll post my comments about him!
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 19, 2014, 04:55:04 AM
My Paris ranking:
1-Fey
2-Bernstein
3-Harnoncourt
4-Weil
Sarge
Well, these symphonies, then, are quite well served!
Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2014, 05:32:10 AM
Well, these symphonies, then, are quite well served!
Indeed...and all four sets are great in their individual ways.
Sarge
Fey is exciting, but sometimes crazy and irritating in his exaggerations and mannerisms. But I recall that I liked his Paris set a lot and probably more than several other of his recordings.
Harnoncourt is mannered as well, but the Paris set does sound so colorful and fresh that they do not bother me so much (unless I like the particular mannerisms anyway). Still, I probably would have preferred if he played somethings a little more straightforward (as he did, IMO, in the earlier 3-4 discs with the Concentus Musicus).
Just curious--any love here for HvK in the Paris and London symphonies? ;)
If nothing else, some of the reviews on Amazon are hugely entertaining--they're all over the place, with certain listeners ready to die defending Fluffy to the last semiquaver, and others eager to light a bonfire and burn each and every one of those DG Haydn recordings:
[asin]B000001GNT[/asin]
[asin]B001DCQI9Q[/asin]
Did H. C. Robbins Landon really know what he was talking about when he praised HvK's Haydn? Or (conspiracy theory alert ;D) was HCRL's purported praise of HvK's way with Papa Haydn just an elaborate hoax propagated by HvK's water-carriers? ???
Quote from: jfdrex on November 19, 2014, 11:51:20 AM
Just curious--any love here for HvK in the Paris and London symphonies? ;)
If nothing else, some of the reviews on Amazon are hugely entertaining--they're all over the place, with certain listeners ready to die defending Fluffy to the last semiquaver, and others eager to light a bonfire and burn each and every one of those DG Haydn recordings:
[asin]B000001GNT[/asin]
[asin]B001DCQI9Q[/asin]
Did H. C. Robbins Landon really know what he was talking about when he praised HvK's Haydn? Or (conspiracy theory alert ;D) was HCRL's purported praise of HvK's way with Papa Haydn just an elaborate hoax propagated by HvK's water-carriers? ???
I cannot answer directly. 10 or 15 years ago I tried a disc of
HvK conducting
Mozart, hearing which nearly brought me to tears.
And not tears of joy ....
So, mine is not a genuine opinion; but in a footnote, indicate that I have no confidence 8)
Quote from: jfdrex on November 19, 2014, 11:51:20 AM
Just curious--any love here for HvK in the Paris and London symphonies? ;)
If nothing else, some of the reviews on Amazon are hugely entertaining--they're all over the place, with certain listeners ready to die defending Fluffy to the last semiquaver, and others eager to light a bonfire and burn each and every one of those DG Haydn recordings:
[asin]B000001GNT[/asin]
[asin]B001DCQI9Q[/asin]
Did H. C. Robbins Landon really know what he was talking about when he praised HvK's Haydn? Or (conspiracy theory alert ;D) was HCRL's purported praise of HvK's way with Papa Haydn just an elaborate hoax propagated by HvK's water-carriers? ???
Huge fan of HVK's Haydn here! Actually a recent fan as I just acquired these two sets a few months ago.
Are these any good?
(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028948022823.jpg)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 20, 2014, 04:38:51 PM
Are these any good?
(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028948022823.jpg)
:D
8)
This Neal is such a joker! :D
Err.Guys. Seriously. I have NO recordings from Bruggen. I don't really have an opinion about him. So are your comments: this is so good, he must be joking? Or is it, he's so bad, he must be joking? Forgive me if he's a legend, but I know none of his work.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 20, 2014, 04:55:20 PM
Err.Guys. Seriously. I have NO recordings from Bruggen. I don't really have an opinion about him. So are your comments: this is so good, he must be joking? Or is it, he's so bad, he must be joking? Forgive me if he's a legend, but I know none of his work.
I have a great opinion about Brüggen's understanding of the Classical style, even better than my opinion about his Baroque recordings. That said, my knowledge of that set is just partial (limited to the London symphonies) because I recently ordered it from JPC. But his Mozart, his Haydn and his Beethoven have never disappointed me. However, as you probably know, Gurn and I are HIP nuts... ;D
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 20, 2014, 04:55:20 PM
Err.Guys. Seriously. I have NO recordings from Bruggen. I don't really have an opinion about him. So are your comments: this is so good, he must be joking? Or is it, he's so bad, he must be joking? Forgive me if he's a legend, but I know none of his work.
This is so good, you must be joking. Back when Brüggen was still alive, that box (actually its earlier equivalent) was selling for upwards of $175 after it instantly went OOP. I still don't have it, I bought all the disks 'used' as singles or duos over a 2 year period. That the whole thing can be had for less than 30€ in most places is freaking ludicrous, and if anyone has an interest in PI/HIP recordings, they would be on the losing side to not snap it up before it again goes OOP and rises into the stratosphere.
Of course, one can pick and choose from dozens of other recordings and probably find superior versions for every one here, but why would you? :)
8)
The only person I remember disliking Brüggen was Michael Schaffer (M Forever). As far as I recall, Michael thought he was a phony.
Quote from: Daverz on November 20, 2014, 06:40:53 PM
The only person I remember disliking Brüggen was Michael Schaffer (M Forever). As far as I recall, Michael thought he was a phony.
I don't remember that, but not surprising. I think he can drag his tempos just a little from time to time, but that i just a personal preference, and I am a nasty niggler at heart. I wouldn't imagine not having all his Haydn! :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2014, 06:48:56 PM
I don't remember that, but not surprising. I think he can drag his tempos just a little from time to time, but that i just a personal preference, and I am a nasty niggler at heart. I wouldn't imagine not having all his Haydn! :)
If I had to pick a single set of Paris symphonies, Bruggen's set would be it. Of course, I'd want the (different) performance of 86 on a single Philips CD coupled with 88. Bruggen gets the style and humor just right in that perrformance.
I am not through with Brüggen's set (but I had the London set before and liked most of it). Very roughly (and this is underselling his qualities) Brüggen is halfway between the lean, mean, straightforward style of Weil and Pinnock and the more nuanced, sometimes mannered readings of Harnoncourt.
Some tempi are comparably slow (I think he is too slow e.g. in the first movements of 90 and 93), there are also some tempo changes that can be irritating (finale of 98, the change is in the score, but Brüggen does it in an extreme fashion, some listeners love it) and the fortissimo tutti chord of the "surprise" comes early (which is probably a way to add a little extra surprise). Also the "middle symphonies" are not as "storm and stress"ful as with some other conductors, but the more nuanced approach also has many advantages.
For that price it is certainly worth it, even if you like only half of it.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 20, 2014, 10:53:10 PMthe fortissimo tutti chord of the "surprise" comes early (which is probably a way to add a little extra surprise).
If one
must add a little extra surprise I'd almost prefer the Minkowski route to be honest.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 20, 2014, 10:53:10 PM
I am not through with Brüggen's set . Also the "middle symphonies" are not as "storm and stress"ful as with some other conductors, but the more nuanced approach also has many advantages.
Same here. I'm starting on the set and finding that other recordings are sturmer and drangier than these (even Marriner in the 'named' S&D ones). But the approach is genial, which I like.
Maybe I should invest in the Marriner set ? I used to have them all on vinyl and cassette ::).
I only have (and have listened to) Marriner's "Paris" set which is one of the best with a modern (chamber) orchestra; I especially like the "lighter" symphonies (84,85,87) here. There was a 10-disc set with 29 "named" symphonies, Marriner and Leppard conducting, but this is oop (available for download at an absurdly high price). Right now, besides the Paris set one can only find one older disc with 59/100/101 and 6-8. And several concertos, Masses and both oratorios.
The Pinnock "Sturm&Drang"-Box is very good, in great sound and affordable, often more lively and more straightforward than Brüggen, if not the last word in expression. I have not heard Hogwood and Goodman in those pieces, but as mentioned above some of the few available recordings with Solomons are also favorites (e.g. 45, 48, 49).
Quote from: Daverz on November 20, 2014, 06:40:53 PM
The only person I remember disliking Brüggen was Michael Schaffer (M Forever). As far as I recall, Michael thought he was a phony.
In my recollection that honorary title was for Jos van Immerseel, whose conducting has become quite appreciated on the forum.
But then again, M was quite generous in handing out these accolades. .. :D
Q
So, I started listening to Thomas Fey's cycle, for the moment I listened to vol. 1-7. It is an overall excellent cycle, and for all I heard it bears all the characteristics of a possible "reference full cycle" in these symphonies. But this doesn't mean these performances are always excellent of course (there are a few weaker performances) and, most importantly, it is a little bland, a little too "papa" at times, and even sometimes kind of artificial in the way ideas and effects are applied to the score, without much variety.
It is no surprise, then, that Fey only gets to be my favourite in symphonies where I found the discography really not satisfying, for instance no. 34 or 40 where Dorati only won because of too few opponents. Fey actually rarely matches the best versions, if I take symphonies one by one (except in no. 52 actually, where I couldn't choose between Kuijken, Weil and Fey, except maybe if I did a full and detailed comparison of the three, that all have minor weaknesses anyway).
In a few symphonies (a couple Paris symphonies, and no. 69 'Laudon') I comparing Fey back-to-back against Weil, Harnoncourt, or even Hogwood (very good for once in 69). Each time, Fey was a little inferior everywhere (tension, instrumental quality and colour even for a modern orchestra), sometimes frankly lacking ideas (no. 87 for instance). Also, the acoustics of these CDs in general put the orchestra at a distance that is not useful (I don't feel it covers any strong orchestral defect) and that reduces impact, dynamics...
I'll continue listening to this cycle of course, I feel Fey will really fill a void in many "minor" symphonies. But after reading so many great things about him here, I can't help but feel a little disappointed. I'll buy the full set with pleasure when it will be out though !
By the way, it is interesting to read in the first booklets that this Haydn projects was supposed to be completed in 2009, for the bicentenary of Haydn's death. It has apparently been really delayed... Also, at first (and that might be an explanation), Fey was supposed to record the full cycle with two different orchestras, but in the end only the Heidelberger Sinfoniker stayed on the project, and the Schlierbacher Kammerorchester completely dropped out of the picture. I'm under the impression the latter was actually disbanded...
Here is my updated list of favourite versions, then :
1. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
2. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
3. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
4. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
5. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
6. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
7. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien /// Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
8. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
9. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
10. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
11. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
12. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
13. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
14. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
15. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
16. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
17. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
18. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
19. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
20. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
21. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
22. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
23. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
24. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
25. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
26. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
27. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
28. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
29. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
30. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
31. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
32. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
33. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
34. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
35. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
36. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
37. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
38. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
39. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
40. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
41. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
42. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
43. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
44. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
45. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien /// Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
46. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
47. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
48. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
49. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Gottfried von der Goltz & Freiburger Barockorchester
50. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
51. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
52. Sigiswald Kuijken / La Petite Bande /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik /// Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
53. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
54. Christopher Hogwood / AAM (2nd version, 1994)
55. Hermann Scherchen / Wiener Symphoniker
56. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
57. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
58. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
59. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
60. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
61. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
62. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
63. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
64. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
65. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
66. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
67. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
68. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
69. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
70. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
71. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
72. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
73. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
74. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
75. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
76. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
77. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
78. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
79. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
80. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
81. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
82. Herbert von Karajan / Berliner Philharmoniker /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
83. Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
84. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
85. Guy van Waas / Les Agrémens
86. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
87. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica & Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
88. Wilhelm Furtwängler / Berliner Philharmoniker
89. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
90. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
91. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century
92. Sigiswald Kuijken / La Petite Bande
93. Thomas Beecham / Royal Philharmonic Orchestra /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest
94. Wilhelm Furtwängler / Wiener Philharmoniker /// Pau Casals / Marlboro Festival Orchestra
95. Pau Casals / Marlboro Festival Orchestra /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
96. Christopher Hogwood / AAM /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
97. George Szell / Cleveland Orchestra (1957) /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
98. Ferenc Fricsay / RIAS-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
99. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century
100. Ferenc Fricsay / RIAS-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin /// Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest
101. Arturo Toscanini / NBC Symphony Orchestra /// Fritz Reiner (and "his Symphony Orchestra") /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
102. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic 1962 /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
103. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest
104. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
105. (Sinfonia Concertante) Wiener Staatsopernorchester / Hermann Scherchen
107. (Symphonie "A") Christopher Hogwood / AAM
108. (Symphonie "B") Christopher Hogwood / AAM
Favourite cycles for :
- Paris symphonies : 1. Harnoncourt / 2. Weil / 3. Bernstein / 4. Kuijken / 5. Brüggen / 6. Goodman & Karajan ex aequo / 8. Dorati & Fey ex aequo.
- London symphonies : ... (still have to listen to a few of them)
Quote from: Discobolus on December 10, 2014, 01:25:11 PM
Here is my updated list of favourite versions, then :
1. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
2. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
3. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
4. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
5. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
...
I have far less conviction about my making such a list than I once did. For more than half the symphonies, I have more than one performance that I like a lot. I cycle through them rather than playing the same favorite over and over.
A recent discovery: Fruhbeck de Burgos / Bavarian RSO playing a very enjoyable Sym. 100 in concert. Do I prefer it to the Klemperer recording? I don't know but I sure enjoy listening to it.
Quote from: Discobolus on December 10, 2014, 01:25:11 PM
So, I started listening to Thomas Fey's cycle, for the moment I listened to vol. 1-7. It is an overall excellent cycle, and for all I heard it bears all the characteristics of a possible "reference full cycle" in these symphonies. But this doesn't mean these performances are always excellent of course (there are a few weaker performances) and, most importantly, it is a little bland, a little too "papa" at times, and even sometimes kind of artificial in the way ideas and effects are applied to the score, without much variety.
It is no surprise, then, that Fey only gets to be my favourite in symphonies where I found the discography really not satisfying, for instance no. 34 or 40 where Dorati only won because of too few opponents. Fey actually rarely matches the best versions, if I take symphonies one by one (except in no. 52 actually, where I couldn't choose between Kuijken, Weil and Fey, except maybe if I did a full and detailed comparison of the three, that all have minor weaknesses anyway).
In a few symphonies (a couple Paris symphonies, and no. 69 'Laudon') I comparing Fey back-to-back against Weil, Harnoncourt, or even Hogwood (very good for once in 69). Each time, Fey was a little inferior everywhere (tension, instrumental quality and colour even for a modern orchestra), sometimes frankly lacking ideas (no. 87 for instance). Also, the acoustics of these CDs in general put the orchestra at a distance that is not useful (I don't feel it covers any strong orchestral defect) and that reduces impact, dynamics...
I'll continue listening to this cycle of course, I feel Fey will really fill a void in many "minor" symphonies. But after reading so many great things about him here, I can't help but feel a little disappointed. I'll buy the full set with pleasure when it will be out though !
By the way, it is interesting to read in the first booklets that this Haydn projects was supposed to be completed in 2009, for the bicentenary of Haydn's death. It has apparently been really delayed... Also, at first (and that might be an explanation), Fey was supposed to record the full cycle with two different orchestras, but in the end only the Heidelberger Sinfoniker stayed on the project, and the Schlierbacher Kammerorchester completely dropped out of the picture. I'm under the impression the latter was actually disbanded...
Here is my updated list of favourite versions, then :
1. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
2. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
3. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
4. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
5. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
6. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
7. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien /// Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
8. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
9. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
10. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
11. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
12. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
13. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
14. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
15. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
16. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
17. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
18. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
19. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
20. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
21. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
22. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
23. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
24. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
25. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
26. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
27. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
28. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
29. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
30. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
31. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
32. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
33. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
34. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
35. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
36. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
37. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
38. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
39. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
40. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
41. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
42. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
43. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
44. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
45. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien /// Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
46. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
47. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
48. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
49. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Gottfried von der Goltz & Freiburger Barockorchester
50. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
51. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
52. Sigiswald Kuijken / La Petite Bande /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik /// Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
53. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
54. Christopher Hogwood / AAM (2nd version, 1994)
55. Hermann Scherchen / Wiener Symphoniker
56. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
57. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
58. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
59. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
60. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
61. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
62. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
63. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
64. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
65. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
66. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
67. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
68. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
69. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
70. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
71. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
72. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
73. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
74. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
75. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
76. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
77. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
78. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
79. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
80. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
81. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
82. Herbert von Karajan / Berliner Philharmoniker /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
83. Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
84. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
85. Guy van Waas / Les Agrémens
86. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
87. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica & Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
88. Wilhelm Furtwängler / Berliner Philharmoniker
89. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
90. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
91. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century
92. Sigiswald Kuijken / La Petite Bande
93. Thomas Beecham / Royal Philharmonic Orchestra /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest
94. Wilhelm Furtwängler / Wiener Philharmoniker /// Pau Casals / Marlboro Festival Orchestra
95. Pau Casals / Marlboro Festival Orchestra /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
96. Christopher Hogwood / AAM /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
97. George Szell / Cleveland Orchestra (1957) /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
98. Ferenc Fricsay / RIAS-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
99. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century
100. Ferenc Fricsay / RIAS-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin /// Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest
101. Arturo Toscanini / NBC Symphony Orchestra /// Fritz Reiner (and "his Symphony Orchestra") /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
102. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic 1962 /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
103. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest
104. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
105. (Sinfonia Concertante) Wiener Staatsopernorchester / Hermann Scherchen
107. (Symphonie "A") Christopher Hogwood / AAM
108. (Symphonie "B") Christopher Hogwood / AAM
Favourite cycles for :
- Paris symphonies : 1. Harnoncourt / 2. Weil / 3. Bernstein / 4. Kuijken / 5. Brüggen / 6. Goodman & Karajan ex aequo / 8. Dorati & Fey ex aequo.
- London symphonies : ... (still have to listen to a few of them)
Thanks for Les Agrémens, which I hadn't heard before. Have you heard Scherchen's Ultraphon recordings? Or Klemperer's 102? Or Rosbaud 104? There are also some excellent Harnoncourt bootlegs and video performances around.
I think I have about 7-8 of the Fey discs (the Paris set as well as 45,39,40,50,64,65,69,70,73,75). I am somewhat ambivalent. They are certainly a worthy addition to the catalogue and in many lesser known symphonies maybe even a first choice. But some things are just over the top for me. Exaggerated dynamics (like blasting brass) and mannered details (like strange rubati) rule supreme, sometimes at the expense of almost everything else. Like cheap thrills that will not bear repeated listening and just start grating on one's nerves after a while. And while the combination of modern and old instrument does often work well, it sounds sometimes also "cold" to me, compared with the more subtle colors of old instruments throughout.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 10, 2014, 09:44:29 PM
Thanks for Les Agrémens, which I hadn't heard before. Have you heard Scherchen's Ultraphon recordings? Or Klemperer's 102? Or Rosbaud 104? There are also some excellent Harnoncourt bootlegs and video performances around.
I still have to listen to many recordings, including:
- some Scherchen recordings (but I don't even have a list of his complete Haydn recordings, there are really a lot of them, even past what Tahra and Universal have released again, and that I have and have listened to)
- Klemperer: one of the main sets I still have to hear (with Abbado, and a few London cycles)
- Rosbaud: I see 92 and 104 are on Spotify, I'll try them, along with a few remaining versions, after finishing the Fey CDs I have t my disposal.
Bootlegs and videos, well, I'll check them after all that. I can take my time, this project took me almost the whole year, so I'm not in a hurry... (Then, my big plan is to do the same with the quartets ??? ;D)
But suggestions are most welcome.
Quote from: Discobolus on December 11, 2014, 04:19:52 AM
I still have to listen to many recordings, including:
- some Scherchen recordings (but I don't even have a list of his complete Haydn recordings, there are really a lot of them, even past what Tahra and Universal have released again, and that I have and have listened to)
- Klemperer: one of the main sets I still have to hear (with Abbado, and a few London cycles)
- Rosbaud: I see 92 and 104 are on Spotify, I'll try them, along with a few remaining versions, after finishing the Fey CDs I have t my disposal.
Bootlegs and videos, well, I'll check them after all that. I can take my time, this project took me almost the whole year, so I'm not in a hurry... (Then, my big plan is to do the same with the quartets ??? ;D)
But suggestions are most welcome.
The Scherchen 48 for Ultraphon is really special, really inspired I think. Rosbaud was the conductor who made me take Haydn's music seriously -- him and Fricsay and Van Beinum and Ranki on the piano. I think that Klemperer's Haydn is not as good as his Mozart, but the 102 is IMO one of the really great Haydn recordings. Harnoncourt has started to play 26 -- I'll send it to you. And the video I'm thinking of is 92 with CMV. It's excellent.
The other one you may like is the live London symphonies with Norrington, on Haensler.
Quote from: Jo498 on December 11, 2014, 02:10:52 AM
I think I have about 7-8 of the Fey discs (the Paris set as well as 45,39,40,50,64,65,69,70,73,75). I am somewhat ambivalent. They are certainly a worthy addition to the catalogue and in many lesser known symphonies maybe even a first choice. But some things are just over the top for me. Exaggerated dynamics (like blasting brass) and mannered details (like strange rubati) rule supreme, sometimes at the expense of almost everything else. Like cheap thrills that will not bear repeated listening and just start grating on one's nerves after a while. And while the combination of modern and old instrument does often work well, it sounds sometimes also "cold" to me, compared with the more subtle colors of old instruments throughout.
I agree. After repeated attempts to find some redeeming value to the performances, I sold the Fey Haydn disks I had bought.
Quote from: Discobolus on December 10, 2014, 01:25:11 PMit is a little bland, a little too "papa" at times
Fey bland? Well, that's a utterly new characterization. Are you sure you were listening to Fey's Haydn?
Quote from: Jo498 on December 11, 2014, 02:10:52 AM
cheap thrills that will not bear repeated listening
I see you completely disagree with Discobolus ;) Thrills, yes, in spades...but cheap? ...I don't think so. I've been listening repeatedly to all the volumes so far issued with nary a problem. In fact, they keep calling out to me.
Quote from: Old Listener on December 11, 2014, 10:21:21 AM
I agree. After repeated attempts to find some redeeming value to the performances, I sold the Fey Haydn disks I had bought.
Really?
Really? You couldn't find
anything redeeming in Fey performances? ;D I don't think you looked very hard ::)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2014, 12:25:43 PM
Really? Really? You couldn't find anything redeeming in Fey performances? ;D I don't think you looked very hard ::)
Sarge
See why I don't play this game, Sarge? I laughed when I read all that, knowing how you would react. My own feeling is whatever anyone wants to listen to, they can be happy with it, as long as it's Haydn. 0:)
8)
I agree that there's nothing bland about them, but they are overly spicy!
My intensive Haydn symphony listening took place about 2008-10 and I had maybe 3-4 Fey discs then, so he was not a major factor and the stuff I got since then I have not listened so much and compared.
I am fond of fast menuets, but he is absurdly so in the #104 (the first recording of his I encountered, this was probably already in 2006 or so) and I also dislike the extreme slowing down for the trio. He is following Harnoncourts example and completely overdoing it. The music can hardly be articulated at this speed and the trio that could need a little spice becomes boring at half speed. This is something I didn't need repeated listenings to dislike, so I was wrong on that account ;) I also remember that I really liked the first movement of his #85 to find odd and inexplicable rubati in the following movement. A few weeks ago I listened to his 70 and/or 75 and was startled by the brass outbursts. Turns out that I still preferred him somewhat to Goodman, because Goodman plays a version without timpani and only horns (and those less prominent I guess). Still, he also overdid dynamics and added rubato in the finale of 70 where the pauses are already there in the score and do not have to be exaggerated in such a fashion.
As I said, usually I am happy to have them, but I become somewhat wary and (also because of the high price and some saturation of my Haydn collection) I now take my time and will probably not get all volumes. (I have 9 discs if I am not mistaken: 94/104, 45/64, 83-85, 69/86/87, 82/88/95, 39/40/50, 57/65/59, 70/73/75 and 93/96/97 (not even sure if I listened to the last one...)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2014, 12:25:43 PM
Fey bland? Well, that's a utterly new characterization. Are you sure you were listening to Fey's Haydn?
Yes, bland, for a recent recording anyway, and as I tried to explain I think it is the result of several factors (modern instruments and overall quality of the orchestra, distant and reverberated acoustics). There are many effects, but sometimes a little artificial or mechanical, and they don't make up for a certain lack of tension, and of a more three-dimensional sound. I mean, again, these are good performances but when compared directly to Harnoncourt's Paris symphonies, or a few of the (uneven) Brüggen recordings, the richness of instrumental colours and the sharper contrasts are important elements of performances that are at times really astounding. So Fey's versions are not astounding, just very good and safe recordings, probably better than any complete cycle recorded until now, but at times or when directly compared to a very few others, a little "too" safe.
HIPsters will not approve, but... having read about Solti's set of the London Symphonies for years, I finally obtained it last month:
[asin]B0001Y4JHK[/asin]
First impressions? A very bright, open sound, with superb woodwind playing and detail. On the whole, tempi are brisk but not rushed; the interpretations are more straightforward than I expected, with nary a hint of Solti's reputed brutality or nervousness (except in No. 103, which struck me as the least satisfying performance in the set).
Quote from: Jo498 on December 11, 2014, 12:52:11 PM
I agree that there's nothing bland about them, but they are overly spicy!
My intensive Haydn symphony listening took place about 2008-10 and I had maybe 3-4 Fey discs then, so he was not a major factor and the stuff I got since then I have not listened so much and compared.
I am fond of fast menuets, but he is absurdly so in the #104 (the first recording of his I encountered, this was probably already in 2006 or so) and I also dislike the extreme slowing down for the trio. He is following Harnoncourts example and completely overdoing it. The music can hardly be articulated at this speed and the trio that could need a little spice becomes boring at half speed. This is something I didn't need repeated listenings to dislike, so I was wrong on that account ;) I also remember that I really liked the first movement of his #85 to find odd and inexplicable rubati in the following movement. A few weeks ago I listened to his 70 and/or 75 and was startled by the brass outbursts. Turns out that I still preferred him somewhat to Goodman, because Goodman plays a version without timpani and only horns (and those less prominent I guess). Still, he also overdid dynamics and added rubato in the finale of 70 where the pauses are already there in the score and do not have to be exaggerated in such a fashion.
As I said, usually I am happy to have them, but I become somewhat wary and (also because of the high price and some saturation of my Haydn collection) I now take my time and will probably not get all volumes. (I have 9 discs if I am not mistaken: 94/104, 45/64, 83-85, 69/86/87, 82/88/95, 39/40/50, 57/65/59, 70/73/75 and 93/96/97 (not even sure if I listened to the last one...)
Fey likes to compare himself with Harnoncourt, but frankly I don't think (or hear) they have much things in common. And when comparing their interpretations directly their choices are more usually opposites than alike.
Quote from: Jo498 on December 11, 2014, 12:52:11 PM
I agree that there's nothing bland about them, but they are overly spicy!...
Quote from: Discobolus on December 11, 2014, 01:25:41 PM
Yes, bland....
Thank you for your elaboration. I find it both amusing, and not a little puzzling, how different we all are in our assessments of performances and recordings.
It's late here (Germany). I'll comment in more detail tomorrow.
Sarge
Well, I think it's also a difference in vocabulary. What Jo calls "overly spicy" corresponds, I think, to the effects I find too artificial and/or mechanical. And by "bland sound" I don't mean the reading is generally dull, it is not, clearly, or I'd criticize it a lot more. Which is proof that an interpretation can be bland and overly spicy at the same time :D
i am on the verge of listening to the last 4 discs of the Brüggen set of Haydn symphonies. He is of the HIP persuasion, at least nominally. To me he sounds more of the meek persuasion. Bernstein, Szell, even Walter and Klemperer, Dorati or - gasp - Marriner, sound more involved. Brüggen is good, but dispensable.
Listen to what intelligent musicians can do in Haydn : do yourselves a favour and buy the Tharaud/Labadie disc of concerto in D (coupled with some excellent Mozart).
In general I'm not fond of Fey's punchy style. But I'm listening to 61, a favorite symphony, right now, and it's very good.
This thread inspired me to whip out my early Naxos issue of 44-88-104, cond. Barry Wordsworth with a Slovak chamber orch. whose name I can't remember now. Wow, it's really good - compares favorably with some of the bigger names I've heard.
Quote from: jfdrex on December 11, 2014, 01:31:14 PM
HIPsters will not approve, but... having read about Solti's set of the London Symphonies for years, I finally obtained it last month:
[asin]B0001Y4JHK[/asin]
First impressions? A very bright, open sound, with superb woodwind playing and detail. On the whole, tempi are brisk but not rushed; the interpretations are more straightforward than I expected, with nary a hint of Solti's reputed brutality or nervousness (except in No. 103, which struck me as the least satisfying performance in the set).
[fistpump]
Yes! Finally someone else pays attention to a great set!
[/fistpump]
Re Fey
The couple of CDs I have from him did not turn me off, but did not enthuse me enough to keep on collecting them. There are enough other fish in that sea.
Speaking of which, the new box Bruggen symphonies is now en route to me from JPC, along with the Festetics box. (Roughly 82€ for both, with shipping, no VAT, and a coupon for 20% off).
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 12, 2014, 07:25:00 AM
[fistpump]
Yes! Finally someone else pays attention to a great set!
[/fistpump]
Re Fey
The couple of CDs I have from him did not turn me off, but did not enthuse me enough to keep on collecting them. There are enough other fish in that sea.
Speaking of which, the new box Bruggen symphonies is now en route to me from JPC, along with the Festetics box. (Roughly 82€ for both, with shipping, no VAT, and a coupon for 20% off).
Thanks. Spotting a cheap, gently used set on Amazon recently, I purchased the Solti more out of curiosity than anything. It joins Klemperer, Bernstein, Szell, Davis, Jochum, HvK, and Tate, inter alia, on my non-HIP Haydn London shelf. (Along with Harnoncourt--a grudging nod to the HIPsters--with the non-HIPster Concertgebouw. :))
Speaking of curiosity, I've just remembered that I own one Fey Haydn disk... Will have to give that a second spin & see if it's a Fey Nonny No for me. ;)
Quote from: jfdrex on December 11, 2014, 01:31:14 PM
HIPsters will not approve, but... having read about Solti's set of the London Symphonies for years, I finally obtained it last month:
[asin]B0001Y4JHK[/asin]
First impressions? A very bright, open sound, with superb woodwind playing and detail. On the whole, tempi are brisk but not rushed; the interpretations are more straightforward than I expected, with nary a hint of Solti's reputed brutality or nervousness (except in No. 103, which struck me as the least satisfying performance in the set).
Interesting post! I feel that Solti generally is a bit under-appreciated (apart from his opera recordings (esp. Wagner)). The more I listen to his recordings the more I admire his legacy.
Quote from: Moonfish on December 12, 2014, 04:58:29 PM
Interesting post! I feel that Solti generally is a bit under-appreciated (apart from his opera recordings (esp. Wagner)). The more I listen to his recordings the more I admire his legacy.
Although Solti is best known as a conductor of large-scale late romantic repertoire (Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Richard Strauss), I find his performances of Haydn in this set quite bracing. They've got a lot of zest but aren't overbearing. Solti may approach Haydn as a proto-Beethoven pre-romantic, but he keeps things in classical proportion.
This morning I did a quick back-to-back comparison of Solti and Jochum in the first movement of No. 99. I came to no earth-shaking conclusions; I enjoy them both. But the recorded sound in the Solti is more "present" and transparent and colorful than the sound in the Jochum, which is more homogenized and "grayer." In other words--to make a broad generalization--"typical" Decca sound vs. "typical" DG sound.
I now listened to the first 11 volumes by Thomas Fey. I found that the overall quality of these performances increased with the time, vol. 9-11 are really good. The orchestra improves itself, and the engineering gets better too. It still is a little too formal when there's a strong competition in a symphony, but there are also excellent performances, in symphonies 57 and 61 for instance.
There's 11 other volumes, but I think I'll wait that the dozen or so remaining volumes are released, and that a box with the full cycle is available. I have many other versions to hear anyway...
Here is my updated list then :
1. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
2. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
3. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
4. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
5. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
6. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
7. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien /// Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
8. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
9. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
10. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
11. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
12. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
13. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
14. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
15. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
16. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
17. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
18. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
19. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
20. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
21. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
22. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
23. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
24. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
25. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
26. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
27. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
28. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
29. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
30. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
31. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
32. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
33. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
34. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
35. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
36. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
37. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
38. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
39. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
40. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
41. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
42. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
43. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
44. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
45. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien /// Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
46. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
47. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
48. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
49. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Gottfried von der Goltz & Freiburger Barockorchester
50. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
51. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
52. Sigiswald Kuijken / La Petite Bande /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik /// Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
53. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
54. Christopher Hogwood / AAM (2nd version of the symphony)
55. Hermann Scherchen / Wiener Symphoniker
56. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
57. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
58. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert
59. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
60. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
61. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
62. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
63. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
64. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
65. Trevor Pinnock / English Concert /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
66. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica
67. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM
68. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
69. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
70. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
71. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
72. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
73. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus musicus Wien
74. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
75. Thomas Fey / Heidelberger Sinfoniker
76. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
77. Christopher Hogwood / AAM
78. Roy Goodman / Hanover Band
79. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
80. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
81. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
82. Herbert von Karajan / Berliner Philharmoniker /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
83. Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
84. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
85. Guy van Waas / Les Agrémens
86. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
87. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica & Roy Goodman / Hanover Band /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus Wien
88. Wilhelm Furtwängler / Berliner Philharmoniker
89. Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
90. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Bruno Weil / Tafelmusik
91. Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century
92. Sigiswald Kuijken / La Petite Bande
93. Thomas Beecham / Royal Philharmonic Orchestra /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest
94. Wilhelm Furtwängler / Wiener Philharmoniker /// Pau Casals / Marlboro Festival Orchestra
95. Pau Casals / Marlboro Festival Orchestra /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
96. Christopher Hogwood / AAM /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
97. George Szell / Cleveland Orchestra (1957) /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
98. Ferenc Fricsay / RIAS-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
99. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century
100. Ferenc Fricsay / RIAS-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin /// Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic /// Christopher Hogwood / AAM /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest
101. Arturo Toscanini / NBC Symphony Orchestra /// Fritz Reiner (and "his Symphony Orchestra") /// Frans Brüggen / Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
102. Leonard Bernstein / New York Philharmonic 1962 /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
103. Antal Dorati / Philharmonia Hungarica /// Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest
104. Nikolaus Harnoncourt / Concertgebouworkest /// Sigiswald Kuijken / Petite Bande
105. (Sinfonia Concertante) Wiener Staatsopernorchester / Hermann Scherchen
107. (Symphonie "A") Christopher Hogwood / AAM
108. (Symphonie "B") Christopher Hogwood / AAM
Favourite cycles for :
- Paris symphonies : 1. Harnoncourt / 2. Weil / 3. Bernstein / 4. Kuijken / 5. Brüggen / 6. Goodman & Karajan ex aequo / 8. Dorati & Fey ex aequo.
- London symphonies : ...
Quote from: Jo498 on October 30, 2014, 02:02:00 AM
I rather like Rattle's disc with 60, 70, 90
I just acquired this one and listened to #90. It's really good, with a strong improvisational feel - I think there's even some actual improv on the part of the wind players, in repeats and so forth. And a cheerful feeling throughout, as if everyone involved is having fun.
#90 is one of my favorite little-known Haydn symphonies. Listening to it this time, I wondered if Beethoven got the idea for the super-long coda to his #8 from this Haydn symphony, where the false endings add up to one super-long coda.
Rattle seems to be a real fan of this symphony. I heard him do it with the BPO on tour, and he has re-recorded it with them.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2014, 11:58:35 AM
I cannot answer directly. 10 or 15 years ago I tried a disc of HvK conducting Mozart, hearing which nearly brought me to tears.
And not tears of joy ....
So, mine is not a genuine opinion; but in a footnote, indicate that I have no confidence 8)
I have never really liked his Mozart. His Haydn is okay big band Haydn, but I find it misses the life and zip. Not anywhere near a top recommendation from me.
Kuijken and Weil for me, never heard Harnoncourt or Fey.
From time to time, on the radio, I hear a Haydn symphony played by Thomas Fey. I have never come across anything quite like it. Without exception, all of his interpretations are appalling.
The latest one I have heard is the fugal finale of No 70 with the Heidelberg orchestra on the WROC label (worst recordings of the century) . The adjective "grotesque" immediately springs to mind, closely followed by insensitive, arrogant and ridiculous. Meaningless accelerations, decelerations, exaggerations, ..... It seems that he is determined simply to distort and disfigure this beautiful music, which simply needs to be played "straight" and sensitively. There is no place in Haydn for a huge conductor ego.
Thomas Fey should be banned for life from playing Haydn and should stick to conducting a bus ....
Anyone feel the same (or care to disagree ... ???)
I do not think Fey's tempo changes are (always or most of the time) meaningless. But I can agree that they are often exaggerated, although I do not share your verdict in the end. Fey brings a lot of attention to details, including sonorities which is good but he exaggerates many things. The problem is that most alternative recordings tend to a certain blandness and overlooking of details... so while I do not rush to buy every new issue of Fey's I am quite happy to have his interpretations as an alternative in many cases.
IIRC Goodman is not bad in #70 but it could be that he plays a version without trumpets (or this is in 75, I compared his and Fey's a few months ago in both pieces) which is less effective than Fey's brassy one. Rattle has a good 70 from the early 90s (but he exaggerates dynamics with some pppp passages).
Quote from: Ken B on December 31, 2014, 02:56:33 PM
I have never really liked his Mozart. His Haydn is okay big band Haydn, but I find it misses the life and zip. Not anywhere near a top recommendation from me.
Kuijken and Weil for me, never heard Harnoncourt or Fey.
Weil is really fun--but part of it is energetic tempos and TERRIFIC recording quality. I need to listen more, but my first impression was of a sacrifice of gravitas and depth in his interpretations. I really like Harnoncourt a lot. Dynamic, HIP-ish sound elements, but with some serious heft. For me, Harnoncourt really lets you have your cake and eat it too.
Isn't a shame Bernstein didn't record more of Haydn's symphonies. As a matter of personal taste, nobody comes near him with that witty, happy sound, in contrast probably with Haydn's dismal romantic life. A close second would be Jochum, way ahead of the Prussian armada - Abendroth, Busch, Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch and then Bohm and Karajan. The symphony marathoners - Dorati, Goberman, Maerzendorfer, and more recently Marriner, Davis and Fischer certainly deserve an accolade for their effort. Where is Beecham? Well, Beecham sounds always like Beecham. You have my permission to shoot me.
Quote from: AKILEGO on March 20, 2015, 09:24:13 AMYou have my permission to shoot me.
You left out the best: Szell, Fey and Norrington/Stuttgart 8)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/1408.gif)
AKILEGO
Klemperer is my favored. Which is extraordinary, because never in a million years i would have imagined his style would have fitted Haydn in the least. But it does. You should try his performance of the Miracle symphony (probably my favored Haydn symphony at the moment). It's just great.
Unfortunately, they don't have it on youtube, but they have The Clock symphony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALDTuxiw9RE
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51obe0k95QL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61rGs8wElvL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61rfDGtyqwL._SY300_.jpg)
Unfortunately none of these are complete, but all offer period performances of many of the symphonies.
Freiburger Barockorchester has also recorded some of the symphonies.
Quote from: AKILEGO on March 20, 2015, 09:24:13 AM
Isn't a shame Bernstein didn't record more of Haydn's symphonies.
Agreed!
Quote from: AKILEGO on March 20, 2015, 09:24:13 AM
Isn't a shame Bernstein didn't record more of Haydn's symphonies. As a matter of personal taste, nobody comes near him with that witty, happy sound
His Paris set is extraordinary, but i wasn't taken as much in his London set (which is still good, mind you).
Between him and Harnoncourt (his Paris set is one of the best HIP recordings ever made, IMHO), i never felt the need to look for more in the Paris symphonies. The same cannot be said for the London symphonies. Many good sets, but not one which i would think to be "definitive".
Quote from: sanantonio on March 20, 2015, 10:21:48 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51obe0k95QL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61rGs8wElvL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61rfDGtyqwL._SY300_.jpg)
Unfortunately none of these are complete, but all offer period performances of many of the symphonies.
Freiburger Barockorchester has also recorded some of the symphonies.
And there's also Weil & Tafelmusik, also incomplete.
[asin]B001U0HB60[/asin]
Harnoncourt for the Paris set and the four discs with the Concentus (6-8, 30, 31, 45, 53, 59, 60, 69, 73), less for the "London" set, although there is a lot of good stuff in there as well.
Brüggen at least for his London set (I am not through with the rest of the box but had the London separately years ago).
I'm wondering if this thread should be merged into the primary Haydn thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.0.html)?
Gurn?
Quote from: sanantonio on March 20, 2015, 11:02:08 AM
I'm wondering if this thread should be merged into the primary Haydn thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.0.html)?
Gurn?
Well, it is a single purpose thread, which is to talk about recordings of the symphonies. For the many people who like to do that and nothing else, it is probably more convenient here. I don't know, if anyone else has any thoughts on it, chime in. I have to say, it is easier for me to avoid being here... :D
8)
Quote from: Purusha on March 20, 2015, 10:28:52 AM
Harnoncourt (his Paris set is one of the best HIP recordings ever made, IMHO)
I received that recently and just finished listening to 82. First impression was about as good as possible.
Re: thread merge, I think the time to do that was when this thread was starting. Plus, the main Haydn thread is pretty unwieldy already. I vote nay.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2015, 12:07:51 PM
Well, it is a single purpose thread, which is to talk about recordings of the symphonies. For the many people who like to do that and nothing else, it is probably more convenient here. I don't know, if anyone else has any thoughts on it, chime in. I have to say, it is easier for me to avoid being here... :D
8)
I see your point. All is well.
:)
Quote from: Pat B on March 20, 2015, 12:32:20 PM
I received that recently and just finished listening to 82. First impression was about as good as possible.
Re: thread merge, I think the time to do that was when this thread was starting. Plus, the main Haydn thread is pretty unwieldy already. I vote nay.
I'm not a Harnoncourt fan. Count me among the skeptics. But every once in a while he hits gold, and this set of the Parisian symphonies is a case in point.
Doesn't anyone (preferably in Europe) have a spare Vol.9 and 10 of Hogwood's to sell? :D
I am again seriously tempted to get the whole box. BUT: I already have Vols 2,4,8 and one single disc, prefer originals (despite the clumsy packaging) for design and documentation, find Hogwood often closer to decent/good than to great and feel that I have enough recordings of the 40ish Sturm and Drang already. But Vol.9 is used almost as expensive (ca. 50 EUR) as the whole box in Italy... Vol.10 more affordable but I would be getting this mainly for 62...
There must have been some people who were in a similar situation (only they owned Vol. 9) and have doubles now with the big box.
It's not conclusive but it might be that the plug has finally been pulled from Fey's Haydn series. :(
In any case, jpc.de is offering a bunch at less than half price (9 EUR, note that some of the older recordings like 94/104 might often be even cheaper from marketplace sellers).
While generally in sympathy with the series, I find some interpretations too exaggerated, so I have not collected all of them. I own about 9 vols. (I have 34,39,40,45,50,57,59,64,65,69,70,73,75, 82-88, 93-97, 104)
Still, I'd like to get a few more, especially with works that are IMO not well served on recordings but I am also open to suggestions including more frequently recorded pieces. Any comments are welcome!
Considering in particular (the couplings are not ideal for me, as I often only really want one of them...)
48 + 56
53 + 54
60 + 61
and maybe also
41,44,47
49,52,58
(although I think I am reasonably well served with Pinnock's and Brüggen's boxes for the last 6 mentioned)
Nobody listening to Fey's Haydn anymore? I had had the impression it was quite popular with some readers here...
Anyway, I ordered 53/54 (partly because I am not sure I have that alternative finale somewhere and also because 54 is really a great piece and I have fewer convincing recordings of it that the others mentioned), hopefully it'll arrive tomorrow.
While deciding I listened to Fischer in 52-54,56, 61-62 and these are actually pretty good, so I didn't feel the urgent need to get all those of Fey's but I might eventually do so, 61 is also a much better piece than I remembered, for some reason I had most of the "60s" numbers filed unter "rather boring".. I am probably also one of the few Haydnistas who is not crazy about "il distratto" (maybe it strikes too close to home...).
My sense is that
Fey is popular here, that his work is largely at a high level, with perhaps a couple of borderline lapses. (I have perhaps 6 of his
Haydn CDs, as well as some of his
Mendelssohn, and find them uniformly excellent) And, yes, the news that his series is running aground will be mourned here.
Edit :: minor typo / I blame autocorrect
In the 1960s another abandoned Haydn project (besides Goberman and a few others) was with David Blum and the so-called Esterhazy orchester (supposedly NYC area based freelancers) on Vanguard.
Because Simon Roberts of rec.music.classical.recordings used to rave about the #60 by this outfit I had this on my wishlist forever but it was usually unavaible or expensive (or I was too sensible to buy ever more Haydn symphonies). I finally got a Vanguard Everyman CD with 60, 70 and 81 for about EUR 9 incl. overseas shipping which seemed fair and received it a few days ago.
I do not regret getting it but I do not quite see why that recording of 60 is so extremely special. I find the other two also quite good; especially 81 is not exactly overrecorded. Modern instruments but smallish forces and pretty good sound for the vintage.
I also ordered an old CBS 3-disc-set with 6 symphonies conducted by Derek Solomons. For a price that was almost too good so I keep my fingers crossed that the vendor did not make a mistake and I'll get chinese pop music instead or so - no kidding this did happen once because EAN numbers are not always unique.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 02, 2016, 03:03:49 AM
In the 1960s another abandoned Haydn project (besides Goberman and a few others) was with David Blum and the so-called Esterhazy orchester (supposedly NYC area based freelancers) on Vanguard.
Because Simon Roberts of rec.music.classical.recordings used to rave about the #60 by this outfit I had this on my wishlist forever but it was usually unavaible or expensive (or I was too sensible to buy ever more Haydn symphonies). I finally got a Vanguard Everyman CD with 60, 70 and 81 for about EUR 9 incl. overseas shipping which seemed fair and received it a few days ago.
I do not regret getting it but I do not quite see why that recording of 60 is so extremely special. I find the other two also quite good; especially 81 is not exactly overrecorded. Modern instruments but smallish forces and pretty good sound for the vintage.
I also ordered an old CBS 3-disc-set with 6 symphonies conducted by Derek Solomons. For a price that was almost too good so I keep my fingers crossed that the vendor did not make a mistake and I'll get chinese pop music instead or so - no kidding this did happen once because EAN numbers are not always unique.
Well, # 60 is just not a symphony I want to listen to.
There are more Blum Haydn recordings worth getting. Blum's 39 and 59 are my co-favorite recordings of these works. 73 and 75 are very good too. 90 and 91 are in a super cheap Haydn Big Box of mp3 downloads. I don't consider them essential.
Solomons and his group produced lots of very fine PI Haydn recordings. 39 (my other co-favorite recording) and 48 (far and away my favorite recording) and quite a few more. Haydyn house has a number of LP to CD transfers including recordings that never made it to a commercially released CD.
http://www.haydnhouse.com/DSO_Haydn_Symphonies_Series.htm (http://www.haydnhouse.com/DSO_Haydn_Symphonies_Series.htm)
The Bach Guild mp3 download is 13 EUR in Europe which I am not going to pay for downloads of such old stuff, especially after I paid for the physical disc with 60/70/81 (it was actually marked wrongly as 60/75/81 but I don't care because I really like #70). (And I find that I tend not to listen to downloads, force of habit, I am afraid.) If I find 39/75/73 for a decent price I might snap it up.
That the Solomons series was abolished and that most of the ca. 40 symphonies they recorded was never available on CD is a disgrace. I snapped up two single discs (26, 48, 49 and 39,45,59) almost 20 years ago (probably around 97/98) and loved those despite the very small sounding orchestra. I agree about their recordings of #48 and maybe also #39 (that piece is flawed with great outer movements but a fairly trite andante, therefore ranks for me a little lower than the great 44 or 45.
But I am by now mostly happy with the Haydn symphonies I have, so I am not going to walk extra miles or pay real money for mp3s from LPs.
If the following set arrives in good condition, I will be happy, but if that's all the additional Solomons I'll ever hear, so be it.
[asin]B000002625[/asin]
Hi Jo.
You will love this box set. My favourite is number 45, the "Farewell", although here the first movement sounds more like "I'm in a really bad mood so don't mess with me". It is angry, violent and menacing. It is played here a just the right tempo .... not too rushed. The raw sound really heightens the impact as does the transparency of the recording. The horn dissonances at the climaxes make your hair stand on end. It does make you wonder what state of mind Haydn was in when he wrote this kind of thing ....
The whole box set is full of treasures that will give you pleasure for years to come.
For me, the trouble with Fey's Haydn symphonies are they are exactly that ..... Fey's Haydn rather than Haydn's Haydn. I have only heard a few here and there, but I found them to be full of quite grotesque mannerisms. They weren't even thought-provoking ..... just grotesque ...
I think that Fey should be confined to conducting a high-voltage discharge.... around 10,000 volts should do the job .....
I agree that the Dorati set has aged since the time I collected them all as LP's, but for me there is one recording of his that towers over all the others and still sounds wonderful.
It's symphony number 90 .... a terrific performance of wonderful music .... especially the finale.
In fact, #45 is the one piece from that beautiful Solomons box I already have in another guise... I love it as well although there are more good recordings of #45 than of some others (incl. 39 and 48) where Solomons is very good.
Solomons is as lean and mean as it gets and this may not be for everyone and not fit all pieces equally well. But of the ones I have heard I find his more convincing than the comparably lean Hogwood.
From the Fey sale, I got 48 + 56 and 53 + 54 and I am quite happy with them as well. I agree that Fey can be mannered and tends to exaggerate but his style works well with these extrovert pieces.
I received the Solomon box mentioned in #150 and it is expectedly good (30 year old discs but in newish condition). But for the non-fanatic I think it is not necessary to take pains to get these recordings. Grab them if you find them cheap (that's what I did) but do not spend $60 or so for ordering them from Japan.
Solomons' more easily available 39, 45, 48, 49 are the best ones and for a piece like 42 the more recent HIP efforts with bigger orchestras and fuller sound might be more attractive for most listeners.
One of the greatest recordings Leonard Bernstein ever made with the New York Philharmonic was of the Haydn Paris Symphonies. The wind playing is absolutely astonishing!
HIP be damned! It's a hall of fame recording!!!
I'm getting to know Haydn's 80th in D Minor through a fine HIP performance from Giovanni Antonini with the Kammerorchester Basel. It is an absolutely stunning performance with clear textures in the strings and forward brass. What a symphony this is!
Quote from: alkan on June 06, 2016, 03:39:22 AM
For me, the trouble with Fey's Haydn symphonies are they are exactly that ..... Fey's Haydn rather than Haydn's Haydn. I have only heard a few here and there, but I found them to be full of quite grotesque mannerisms. They weren't even thought-provoking ..... just grotesque ...
I think that Fey should be confined to conducting a high-voltage discharge.... around 10,000 volts should do the job .....
I have quite a few of Fey/Haydn as once upon a time I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. Repeated listening reveal just what you described. There is no interpretation per say, just some really forward percussion balances, some grotesque string attacks and extreme tempo contrasts.
As a complete set of the symphonies I have only the Adam Fischer set. For the late symphonies I have the Brüggen set. Brüggen ist quite good. I have also Karajan with the Paris und London symphonies, this is enjoyable, but lacks charme. But what I really like are the perfomances of the "La petite band" which I enjoyed very much, but they have performed only a few of the late symphonies.
For the symphonies themselves: I listen mostly to the late one, the Paris and the London. I tried some of the earlier ones in the Adam Fischer set, but was very often disappointed. There are of course some of the earlier symphonies who are rigthtly famous, for example the Farewell symphony.
Quote from: Martin Lind on October 16, 2016, 12:21:29 PM
As a complete set of the symphonies I have only the Adam Fischer set. For the late symphonies I have the Brüggen set. Brüggen ist quite good. I have also Karajan with the Paris und London symphonies, this is enjoyable, but lacks charme. But what I really like are the perfomances of the "La petite band" which I enjoyed very much, but they have performed only a few of the late symphonies.
For the symphonies themselves: I listen mostly to the late one, the Paris and the London. I tried some of the earlier ones in the Adam Fischer set, but was very often disappointed. There are of course some of the earlier symphonies who are rigthtly famous, for example the Farewell symphony.
Complete sets of any composer are usually a disappointment; there may be the best recording ever of a few woks, and then, the worst ever of some others. Or else they are all bland.
La Petite Bande have done everything after the Paris symphonies, which is to say, 88-104, and very nicely. Perhaps you missed some here and there? They have done only a few of the middle and early ones, that is true.
If you want a new set of Paris symphonies that really will make you enjoy them, I recommend the Harnoncourt. IMO, it is the best set of Paris symphonies recorded. :)
8)
Fey is still out of action, but Haenssler offers now both a dirt cheap budget box with 10 (recent) discs from the series as well as a twofer with recordings of 6-8 under Fey (apparently the last he did before his accident?) and 35,36,51 where the ensemble is led by its concert master Benjamin Spillner.
(I just read elsewhere that the consequences of Fey's injury are apparently so grave that he will very probably never conduct again. But note that this is not official and unconfirmed information.)
(https://media3.jpc.de/image/w440/front/0/0881488160888.jpg)
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/joseph-haydn-symphonien-nr-6-8-35-46-51/hnum/5645199 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/joseph-haydn-symphonien-nr-6-8-35-46-51/hnum/5645199)
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/joseph-haydn-thomas-fey-dirigiert-haydn-symphonien/hnum/5748207 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/joseph-haydn-thomas-fey-dirigiert-haydn-symphonien/hnum/5748207)
Quote from: Jo498 on November 30, 2016, 03:53:36 AM
Fey is still out of action, but Haenssler offers now...a twofer with recordings of 6-8 under Fey (apparently the last he did before his accident?) and 35,36,51 where the ensemble is led by its concert master Benjamin Spillner.
Thanks for pointing this out. Ordered.
Sarge
Quote from: Jo498 on November 30, 2016, 03:53:36 AM
(I just read elsewhere that the consequences of Fey's injury are apparently so grave that he will very probably never conduct again. But note that this is not official and unconfirmed information.)
Heavy news.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 01, 2016, 11:43:52 AM
Heavy news.
Indeed. He is too young. Let's hope the unofficial reports are wrong, but then even if he can return, it seems too serious not to have affected him. Very upsetting news.
Great set. Haydn's symphonies (well, a handful of them) here placed in context in terms of their competition in Paris, ca. 1780-89.
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Jan/Parisian_symphony_RIC357.jpg)
This 7 cd set sometimes appears quite cheaply. Worth wait the time spent for checking the right occasion. Warmly recommended, both as Haydn performances per se and as a musicological conspectus of its era.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 30, 2016, 03:53:36 AM(I just read elsewhere that the consequences of Fey's injury are apparently so grave that he will very probably never conduct again. But note that this is not official and unconfirmed information.)
Given that he has been out of action since 2014, now, not a surprise. A personal tragedy and a loss to the world of music.