What are some of your favorite ones? There is a great discussion on just HvK's on the "purchase" thread, and thought this topic deserved its own "umbrella". I currently have HvK's 70's cycle....have heard great things about his 60's work, and also enjoy my Furtwängler run on the Music & Arts label. Here are the covers:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RNK28TPRL._AA240_.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/411TD7G50AL._AA240_.jpg)
Dis:
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/02/8/5/802.jpg)
and dis:
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IzLvxJD-L._AA240_.jpg)
and dis:
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/4116VYV6P6L._AA240_.jpg)
and dis:
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/82/d0/5429b220dca021966b7b3010._AA240_.L.jpg)
and dat:
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KH1BPB9WL._AA240_.jpg)
Mackerras/Scottish Chamber Orchestra
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=10241
I *knew* you would say that!
What's your girlfriend's favorite?
Quote from: M forever on August 19, 2007, 08:37:41 AM
I *knew* you would say that!
What's your girlfriend's favorite?
Ah, and like your choices Wand, Harnoncourt, and Giulini were shocking! ;D ;)
However, the Bernstein intrigues me.
Walter/ColSo
and the Furtwängler set Bogey posted, only I seem to have misplaced it :'(.
Quote from: M forever on August 19, 2007, 08:37:41 AM
I *knew* you would say that!
What's your girlfriend's favorite?
Good question. Don't really know.
I do like other Brahms cycles (Wand, Abbado, etc) but for some reason I always come back to Mackerras. Maybe its the reduced instrumentation that I like. Gives the music a less heavy feel which is appealing to me.
It would be easy enough to pick up a cycle, but I never have. Maybe I should. How's the Wand? Anyone?
The thread on the old forum: Brahm's Symphonies cycles (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,7437.0.html)
My favourites in chronological order:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/6449724.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/5171872.jpg)
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8409836.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/410TVMV2KXL._AA240_.jpg)
Q
Quote from: hornteacher on August 19, 2007, 08:43:32 AM
Good question. Don't really know.
You should ask her next time you see her!
Quote from: Bogey on August 19, 2007, 08:39:03 AM
Ah, and like your choices Wand, Harnoncourt, and Giulini were shocking! ;D ;)
However, the Bernstein intrigues me.
I deserve the best! These cycles represent an extremely wide spectrum of interpretive approaches while all being very stylish and idiomatic. I would have loved to include the Mackerras set, I think the concept is great, after all, Brahms liked to have his symphonies performed by a really small orchestra. I have been to the theater in Meiningen where several of his major works were performed with such a small band under Bülow. It is a really small theater and I find the idea intriguing to hear this music in an intimate setting with lean, transparent sounds. However, I don't find this set to be very successful in the execution of that idea. The orchestra does not have the eloquence of phrasing and the sense of flexible timing needed for this music.
Harnoncourt does much better, although the forces he uses aren't quite that small. They were rather "medium" sized. I heard the performances live when they recorded that, it was incredibly interesting to hear the BP play like that only a few years after I had heard them play the Brahms symphonies in widescreen sound under Karajan. Which in itself was very impressive, too. And the orchestra really audibly enjoyed "rediscovering" the music in that way.
Mackerras is, unfortunately, more a dry exercise of a good idea. There is also a set with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe and Berglund which I have but somehow never got around to listening to.
Quote from: hornteacher on August 19, 2007, 08:35:52 AM
Mackerras/Scottish Chamber Orchestra
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=10241
Seconded. Hard to beat as "hip" or "near-hip" versions go.
Also, for traditional readings:
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/39/598339.jpg)
Thomas
Jansons/Oslo Philharmonic:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XHPSZXZRL._SS500_.jpg)
Haitink/Boston Symphony:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/05/90/7f659330dca028feadf72010.L.jpg)
Jochum/London Philharmonic:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/12/1b/fded228348a04a0f5e32e010.L.jpg)
Honorable mentions:
1st - Tennstedt/LPO
2nd - Carlos Kleiber/VPO
3rd - Cantelli/Philharmonia
Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony, now on Sony, is very strong on all four. I do prefer Reiner, Royal Philharmonic, for Symphony No. 4.
I would put Karajan's 60's cycle on top (especially the 4th) and 80's cycle second. The second cycle has it's amazing moments, but suffers from poor recording, I find the brass and winds too recessed. There are many cycles that I find satisfying in their way, I'd say the Kertesz/VPO cycle is the finest. Jochum's cycle in EMI is thrilling but driven too hard, IMO. His old MONO cycle on DG is also brilliant.
Quote from: Bogey on August 19, 2007, 08:29:07 AM
What are some of your favorite ones? There is a great discussion on just HvK's on the "purchase" thread, and thought this topic deserved its own "umbrella". I currently have HvK's 70's cycle....have heard great things about his 60's work, and also enjoy my Furtwängler run on the Music & Arts label. Here are the covers:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RNK28TPRL._AA240_.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/411TD7G50AL._AA240_.jpg)
1)Jochum/LSO/EMI - requires two purchases for complete 1-4 set
2)Walter/NYPO/Sony - sounds much different than later Columbia SO versions
3)Dorati/LSO/Mercury - available as Archiv reissue
4)Van Beinum/CBO/Phillips - got this from HMV Japan
Also like the Furtwangler/Music & Arts plus Toscanini/RCA as historical documents
To make best Brahms 1-4 set from individual CDs:
1)Klemperer/EMI GROTC
2)Walter/NYPO/Sony
3)Jochum/LSO/EMI
4)Kleiber/VPO/DG
I was thinking of making a thread about Brahms cycles, to see if I'm missing any great ones. I have a "thing" for collecting good Brahms symphony cycles, adoring the Brahms symphonies as I do! ;D
My Top 10
1. Furtwangler/VPO, BPO (EMI) - No contest.
2. Harnoncourt/BPO (Teldec)
3. Karajan/BPO (DG) - The 70's cycle; if the unavailable 60's cycle was around, I might have put it in its place, from what I've heard about it.
4. Toscanini/Philharmonia (Testament)
5. Sanderling/Staatskapelle Dresden (EMI)
6. Walter/NYPO (United Archives) - And Sony, apparently.
7. Wand/NDR Hamburg Symphony Orchestra (RCA) - His penultimate cycle.
8. Abbado/BPO (DG)
9. Haitink/Concertgebouw (Philips)
10. Custom cycle (Various) - Ok, I cheated. :P
1st Symphony, Karajan/BPO (DG) - The only part of the 60's cycle I have, bundled with the Schumann 1st.
2nd & 3rd Symphonies, Walter/Columbia Symphony Orchestra (Sony)
4th Symphony, Kleiber/VPO - (DG)
Honourable Mention: Karajan/BPO (DG) - The amalgam of the 70's and 80's cycle, part of the Karajan Edition; I left it out because of already having one Karajan cycle in the list.
Good cycles left out deliberately are the Klemperer, which I never warmed to, and the Weingartner, because I've never heard a "listenable" transfer of that otherwise excellent cycle. Oh, and, for the ultimate (in my opinion) performance of the Academic Festival Overture, check out Willem Mengelberg and the Concertgebouw Orchestra, on Naxos. 8)
P.S.: Oh, looks like DarkAngel did the "custom cycle" thing, too. I feel less guilty, now. ;)
I have this one :
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YJ8TVQJ1L._AA240_.jpg)
i don't know what the general feeling is about Eschenbach or about this set in particular....but, although it was a "good" introduction (relatively speaking) for a newbie like me, it was totally blown to pieces when i heard Kleiber's version of 4th. Suddenly, the Eschenbach set seemed completely lifeless and i have never managed to get attracted into it any longer...i'll be checking the recommendations on this thread for sure :)
Quote from: Renfield on August 19, 2007, 10:58:18 AM
I was thinking of making a thread about Brahms cycles, to see if I'm missing any great ones. I have a "thing" for collecting good Brahms symphony cycles, adoring the Brahms symphonies as I do! ;D
My Top 10
1. Furtwangler/VPO, BPO (EMI) - No contest.
That EMI-set (I have it myself) misses two superb FW/Brahms recordings: the 1st Hamburg '51 and the 4th BPO '44. Recommended!
Q
I have Haitink with the LSO (LSO Live), Marriner with the ASMF (Hanssler), and Rahbari with the Brussels Belgian Radio & TV Philharmonic Orchestra (Naxos).
Quote from: Mark on August 19, 2007, 11:39:55 AM
I have Haitink with the LSO (LSO Live)
I think that was far less successful than his earlier (Concertgebouw) cycle; or at least that's what I remember reading about it...
Another vote for the Walter/NYPO - now sadly oop! The Col/SO cycle is also very good but I prefer the NYPO
My top 4 individual recordings
1 Abendroth BRSO (1955)
2 Walter NYPO
3 Walter NYPO
4 Reiner RPO
Quote from: Bogey on August 19, 2007, 08:29:07 AM
What are some of your favorite ones?
mravinsky. sets are mostly pointless though
Quote from: Holden on August 19, 2007, 12:22:55 PM
Another vote for the Walter/NYPO - now sadly oop! The Col/SO cycle is also very good but I prefer the NYPO
It is fortunately not OOP - available on a Sony/UK-issue and on the United Archives issue that
Renfield mentioned - sound quality on both is comparable (The UA issue is reportedly from original sources...)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/5171872.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/UAR004-3.jpg)
Q
Quote from: sidoze on August 19, 2007, 02:41:54 PM
mravinsky. sets are mostly pointless though
Why? They are a convenient way of getting the music and are usually cheaper per disc than the individual discs.
Quote from: sidoze on August 19, 2007, 02:41:54 PM
sets are mostly pointless though
I strenuously disagree. If you want to only one recording of each symphony and want it to be the best available you must pick and choose. But if you like having more than one recording of each work, having a few sets is a very satisfying way to do it. Besides, it is useful to have a consistent set of interpretations from a conductor that you generally admire.
Quote from: Que on August 19, 2007, 08:58:23 PM
It is fortunately not OOP - available on a Sony/UK-issue and on the United Archives issue that Renfield mentioned - sound quality on both is comparable (The UA issue is reportedly from original sources...)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/5171872.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/UAR004-3.jpg)
Q
Actually, I really have been wondering: is the sound quality in the same range, for the Sony issue and the United Archives one? Because my main "gripe" with the United Archives set (which I have) is that the sound tends to come out as a bit "harsh"; and I don't think that's the intended result, as far as Walter is concerned. :-\
There's also a French release from Sony of the same set... How would that compare to the other two, I wonder? In other words, do you (or does anyone) have both sets (or even all three), to give us a good comparison? I really admire Walter's interpretation, so I'd like to have the best transfers available, if I can find them... :)
(One thing to note about the United Archives set, however, is the excellent "filler" material it complements the cycle with: truly superb performances of the Academic Overture, the Tragic Overture, some Hungarian Dances, and the Haydn Variations, as well. 8))
Quote from: head-case on August 19, 2007, 09:21:13 AM
I would put Karajan's 60's cycle on top...
Seconded. $:)
I don't think it's available as a set, but I've seen them as budget discs, so this should be something that turns up at your used haunts,
Bill. :)
Quote from: George on August 20, 2007, 05:57:58 AM
Seconded. $:)
I don't think it's available as a set, but I've seen them as budget discs, so this should be something that turns up at your used haunts, Bill. :)
From the 60's set I have #1 in the "Originals" series, #2 and #3 in a rather poorly mastered "musicfest" and #4 from the DG "Karajan Edition" which first came out in the 80's (rather nicely mastered) with paintings by Karajan's wife on the cover. I think it is shocking that this set was never given a proper CD edition, when the 70's set was re-released in every imaginable format.
Quote from: head-case on August 20, 2007, 07:38:41 AM
From the 60's set I have #1 in the "Originals" series, #2 and #3 in a rather poorly mastered "musicfest" and #4 from the DG "Karajan Edition" which first came out in the 80's (rather nicely mastered) with paintings by Karajan's wife on the cover. I think it is shocking that this set was never given a proper CD edition, when the 70's set was re-released in every imaginable format.
Shocking, yet consistent with the monkey-headed decisions that the major labels have made over the the years.
Quote from: Renfield on August 20, 2007, 12:33:11 AM
Actually, I really have been wondering: is the sound quality in the same range, for the Sony issue and the United Archives one? Because my main "gripe" with the United Archives set (which I have) is that the sound tends to come out as a bit "harsh"; and I don't think that's the intended result, as far as Walter is concerned. :-\
There's also a French release from Sony of the same set... How would that compare to the other two, I wonder? In other words, do you (or does anyone) have both sets (or even all three), to give us a good comparison? I really admire Walter's interpretation, so I'd like to have the best transfers available, if I can find them... :)
I own the Sony-UK and listened once to the UA issue on headphones in a shop. My impression was that sound was more or less the same. That harshness/roughness you describe is IMO also on the Sony-UK. I haven't heard the Sony-France issues.
Q
Quote from: head-case on August 19, 2007, 09:21:43 PM
I strenuously disagree. If you want to only one recording of each symphony and want it to be the best available you must pick and choose. But if you like having more than one recording of each work, having a few sets is a very satisfying way to do it. Besides, it is useful to have a consistent set of interpretations from a conductor that you generally admire.
Plus there simply are more sets out there than ever before, at prices lower than ever before because the labels repackage everything and often put together complete cycles and box sets for often less than originally just one CD cost.
Quote from: Que on August 20, 2007, 08:33:43 AM
I own the Sony-UK and listened once to the UA issue on headphones in a shop. My impression was that sound was more or less the same. That harshness/roughness you describe is IMO also on the Sony-UK. I haven't heard the Sony-France issues.
Q
I think I'm taking the proverbial plunge and getting the Sony-France version as well. I'm very, very curious to see if these performances exist in a "softer" transfer. :)
On the subject of the Karajan 60's cycle, I have a rather technical question I've long wanted to ask someone more knowledgable than me in theoretical (musical) matters. So, with apologies for the slight sidetracking, here goes...
In the "dawn" sequence, near the end of the fourth movement of the Brahms 1st, there are what sound to me as ten notes consequtively "held" by the orchestra, the longest in duration usually being the first, second, fourth and tenth in the sequence. So the part I'm referring to is something like:
1 -
2 - 3 -
4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 -
10 (for all the sense that makes to you).
With my apologies for the vague and childish manner of my description, as I only have my ear to guide me and am barely acquainted with the names of the tones in a basic piano keyboard, much less an orchestra, here is my issue:
The first of those notes, the one that - in a way - "launches" the "dawn" sequence, is a specific tone - let's symbolise it with X. In every single recording of the Brahms 1st I can recall
but one, X is the tone
T (whose "name" I wish I knew :P). But in the Karajan 60's recording that I have (DG Originals), the specific tone launching the sequence is
not T, but another tone,
S: in fact the same tone as the
second one in the sequence!
So what's going on? ???
In other words, the note "launching" the 60's Karajan Brahms 1st "dawn" is different from what I've heard in every other performance of the symphony, including Karajan's later two: apparently, Karajan uses the same note twice, rather than use a higher tone first, then "drop" to the second. Is it a glitch in the editing? Is it an alternative a conductor may opt to follow?
Is he plain wrong? Believe me, I'm frustrated not to be able to say "that's X minor, but he's doing Y major", rather than be so descriptive about it, but it's still a fact that I am hearing
two different tones.Can someone help? I've had this question ever since I heard that recording and realised the tone difference, and it's been driving me nuts. :o
http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/bhr2575/large/index.html
If the score doesn't answer your question, you may have to make an excerpt clip and post it so people can listen to what you mean. I don't have that particular recording.
Quote from: M forever on August 20, 2007, 09:52:19 AM
http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/bhr2575/large/index.html
If the score doesn't answer your question, you may have to make an excerpt clip and post it so people can listen to what you mean. I don't have that particular recording.
Your edit caught me right as I was going to answer. Actually, the score probably might answer my question, given that - even though I can't
name tones comfortably, due to lack of practice in associating names with the sounds which I
do identify - I, thankfully,
can read music. :D
Still, if the score is written in the way I hear in all recordings but the 60's Karajan, it will simply tell me that Karajan did indeed alter it: but it
is a start, and one that I am very thankful for! I don't tend to have Brahms scores stacked on my desk. ;)
Right, took me long enough, but the answer has been found! With many thanks to Brahms for his timpani scoring, without which I would have been very hard-pressed to follow the last part of the 1st symphony; though true enough, this was the first time I actually followed a full-orchestra score, much less "live" while listening to the music. :o
Anyway, to the point! The part of the finale I was referring apparently comprises of bars 407 to 414, and more specifically, bar 407 itself. The note I've been hearing in the Karajan recording that "disturbed" me is the one played by the trumpets at that bar, which is the exact same as their first note in bar 408; and after I finally found that part in the score and listened to the music while following it, my ear finally registered the actual (and higher) trombone note I'm used to having my attention drawn to, at that point in the symphony.
In other words, it's the transfer, or even the recording itself, that has resulted in the usually-prevalent trombone note (which I will not even attempt to name :P) at bar 407 being "hidden" behind the trumpets. And since I already surprised myself by succeeding in finding out all this with my first go in under an hour, I won't go further into pondering if that note has to be heard above the rest, or if it's just usually heard above the rest...
If someone else wants to enlighten us further on that last point, please, be my guest. I'll have to admit, though: searching for the answer behind that "deviant" note was fun! ;D
Quote from: Que on August 20, 2007, 08:33:43 AM
I own the Sony-UK [Walter NYP set] and listened once to the UA issue on headphones in a shop. My impression was that sound was more or less the same. That harshness/roughness you describe is IMO also on the Sony-UK. I haven't heard the Sony-France issues.
Here's a comparison by some folks on r.m.c.r (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/tree/browse_frm/thread/ca9e85ba934e089/e8b09d29fa6d6122?rnum=11&q=group%3Arec.music.classical.recordings+walter+brahms+sony&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.music.classical.recordings%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2Fca9e85ba934e089%2F782fff8960c65ce2%3Flnk%3Dgst%26q%3Dgroup%253Arec.music.classical.recordings%2Bwalter%2Bbrahms%2Bsony%26rnum%3D5%26#doc_b1ab6233241b60fa).
Apparently, the Sony UK and Sony France sets are the same remasterings.
I have the French Sony version of Walter/NYPO set (2 CDs) and they do sound pretty good, but have not compared it to other versions shown above. When I bought these a couple years ago used on Amazon I had read a post saying these were the best sounding versions available........
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31QCPAVB1JL._AA240_.jpg)(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/4d/87/0218793509a08a7fffba3110._AA240_.L.jpg)
Quote from: Daverz on August 20, 2007, 11:15:14 AM
Here's a comparison by some folks on r.m.c.r (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/tree/browse_frm/thread/ca9e85ba934e089/e8b09d29fa6d6122?rnum=11&q=group%3Arec.music.classical.recordings+walter+brahms+sony&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.music.classical.recordings%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2Fca9e85ba934e089%2F782fff8960c65ce2%3Flnk%3Dgst%26q%3Dgroup%253Arec.music.classical.recordings%2Bwalter%2Bbrahms%2Bsony%26rnum%3D5%26#doc_b1ab6233241b60fa).
Apparently, the Sony UK and Sony France sets are the same remasterings.
Thank you for that link! I've been looking for such a comparison for months. :D
In my shopping cart they go, the French-Sony discs: I'm not taking chances, here. :P
Quote from: sound67 on August 19, 2007, 09:00:45 AM
Seconded. Hard to beat as "hip" or "near-hip" versions go.
Also, for traditional readings:
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/39/598339.jpg)
Thomas
Suitner has a very strong 1st. I was floored the first time I heard it. One of my favorite 1sts. However, the rest of the cycle has all the edges a bit too rounded off. It fails to build up any tension. In particular the 4th I found disappointing.
Some favorites of mine:
Furtwängler/VPO/BPO/EMI
Barenboim/CSO/Warner
Masur/NYPO/Warner
Toscanini/NBC/RCA
Beinum/Concertgebouw/Philips
Abbado's first cycle on DG with various orchestrasBut basically, you never can have enough Brahms cycles... ;D
Quote from: sound67 on August 19, 2007, 09:00:45 AM
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/39/598339.jpg)
Is it just me or does Suitner look a little like Gomer Pyle? SHAZAMM!!
Quote from: hornteacher on August 20, 2007, 07:02:31 PM
Is it just me or does Suitner look a little like Gomer Pyle? SHAZAMM!!
Suitner looks just like him. Maybe he is Gomer.
Quote from: Don on August 20, 2007, 07:04:44 PM
Suitner looks just like him. Maybe he is Gomer.
The name sure suits him. ;D
I've been on a real Brahms symphony binge this year. Some of the ones that I have really enjoyed but not seen mentioned here are as follows:
Dohnanyi/Cleveland O (re-released in April in an inexpensive slim box)
Szell/Cleveland O
Levine/Chicago SO (Japan mastering)
Levine /Vienna PO
I also downloaded the Gielen Brahms 1 from eMusic.com and find it to be one of the most satisfying ones that I have heard. It is a fairly swift version, featuring sharp textures and oodles of detail and clarity.
Of the ones previously mentioned elsewhere, I really love the Wand/NDR and Karajan (Recent release of 80's No. 1-3, 70's No. 4). One of the common denominators in the these two sets and the above Cleveland ones is very strong lower brass playing. Also, the tempos are generally on the brisk side for all four sets.
I was surprised by how much I really liked the box by Sir Colin Davis/BRSO on RCA. I finished listening to it last week. It has tempos that would seem slower than my ideal, but the playing is superb by the Bavarians and Davis has fairly flexible tempos.
I listened to the Muti/Philly O set just prior to that and found it to be a complete dullard.
Scott
I think the Levine/WP 3rd is really outstanding, one of the most intense and musically to the point recordings of the 3rd. Same goes for the Tragische Ouvertüre from that set. The other items are all very nice, too, hardly surprising given the authority the orchestra has in playing this music. All the more interesting to compare them playing the same pieces under Giulini, Bernstein, and also Böhm, in their cycle with him from the 70s which may not yet have been mentioned here either.
I have the 3rd only from the Davis/SOBR cycle which I picked up for $3 or so in an used CD shop, just to hear what the orchestra sounds like in the recording, as Davis is conductor whose interpretation rarely interest me. However, the first impression from this disc was also very good. But I would have to listen to it again in order to give a more detailed criticism, but I also considered maybe grabbing the whole box since it's often available for very cheap and contains all the symphonies and concertos. However, I already have so many recordings of these symphonies, it is not really a buying priority right now.
I would probably buy the Dohnányi/Clevelandbox first though since I have some of these as individual releases but not all of them and the box also contains the violin concerto with Zehetmaier which I don't yet have either.
I agree about the Muti cycle. Nice playing and all that, but you get that from many other sets and with more depth and charcter of sound, too. The Philips recording is one of these typically round, warm, supersmooth recordings they often produced which superficially heard may sound very "nice" but which I really don't find very good because they are too featureless and like a warm, fat sauce. Musically, Muti's approach is fiercely classicist but he simply doesn't offer as much insight into the inner life of the music as conductors with a roughly similar approach do, like Dohnányi or Wand.
For a cycle, I think the Karajan 1960's leads the way. Especially for 1 & 4. Klemperer is his equal in 2 & 3 (1956 & 1957), and Abbado in 3 (1989).
Quote from: BorisG on August 31, 2007, 07:39:25 PM
For a cycle, I think the Karajan 1960's leads the way. Especially for 1 & 4. Klemperer is his equal in 2 & 3 (1956 & 1957), and Abbado in 3 (1989).
But why,
why aren't they issuing it (complete) on CD? :(
Quote from: Renfield on August 31, 2007, 08:24:54 PM
But why, why aren't they issuing it (complete) on CD? :(
Because the chimpanzees who run DG haven't a clue about the music that they release? ;D
I'm most inclined to listen to either the MacKerras set or the Sanderling, or maybe Szell. Sanderling's is the most appealing plush cycle I know, in large part because of the sound of the Dresden Staatskapelle. In general I prefer the less weighty strings of MacKerras. I like a tonal balance more like chamber music, but am not as pleased with MacKerras's symphonies as with his serenades (the former seem just a bit, well, stodgy), so I might really like a leaner approach but livelier and more playful.
Has anyone heard the Berglund/COE cycle? I've had my finger on the trigger for that one a couple of times, but haven't fired yet.
Quote from: longears on September 01, 2007, 08:44:47 AM
Has anyone heard the Berglund/COE cycle? I've had my finger on the trigger for that one a couple of times, but haven't fired yet.
FYI - This set is available from eMusic.com. I believe the first 25 downloads are free. In fact they have a decent number of Brahms cycles available:
Berglund, Bychkov, Alsop (1-3), Janowski/Liverpool (plus the new Pittsburgh B1), Haitink/LSO Live, Gielen (1-2).
I've sampled the Berglund set a few times (mostly at bedtime), but really never gave it enough outright attention to form an impression.
Quote from: sperlsco on September 02, 2007, 07:18:27 AM
I've sampled the Berglund set a few times (mostly at bedtime), but really never gave it enough outright attention to form an impression.
Just in case my use of the word "sampled" is unclear, I have indeed downloaded the set from eMusic and listened through at various times. For someone looking for less strings and more forward winds, this may be your cup of tea. The performances seem enjoyable enough, but just rather smallish -- especially in the bigger moments.
I am always looking for better and better recordings of Brahms's symphonies. Taking the hint from some posters on this thread, I have purchased the Fourth with Kleiber and the VPO. Just got through listening to movement No. 1, and so far, it's everything everyone says it is — clear, dynamic, beautifully phrased.
Also bought the First with Klemperer & the Philharmonia. Will get back to you on that.
Quote from: Joe Barron on September 20, 2007, 08:30:55 AM
I am always looking for better and better recordings of Brahms's symphonies. Taking the hint from some posters on this thread, I have purchased the Fourth with Kleiber and the VPO. Just got through listening to movement No. 1, and so far, it's everything everyone says it is — clear, dynamic, beautifully phrased.
It's a stunning performance, and really well recorded too. As good as Walter and Furtwängler are, they do not have both of these qualities.
Anyone got any thoughts they'd care to share on Bychkov conducting the WDR Sinfonieorchester Koln in these symphonies?
Quote from: Mark on September 20, 2007, 09:18:26 AM
Anyone got any thoughts they'd care to share on Bychkov conducting the WDR Sinfonieorchester Koln in these symphonies?
First time I hear of it... But I do have thoughts to share on the newly-released Medici Masters Brahms 1st by the Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra, under Klemperer's baton, which is superb!
(And that coming from someone who isn't exactly a die-hard fan of Klemperer's Philharmonia Brahms cycle, as you might notice from my recommendations earlier in this thread.)
I'll be the first to mention the set by:
Wolfgang Sawallisch/London Philharmonic
:)
A relatively recent addition to my collection, and a superb one. Long readings, with especially long opening movements in all four symphonies, but they never sound slow or heavy. Lyricism where appropriate, oomph where needed. I can think of no cycle I like better - though I shan't be discarding my old standbys.
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/31/19231.jpg)
Quote from: Mark on September 20, 2007, 09:18:26 AM
Anyone got any thoughts they'd care to share on Bychkov conducting the WDR Sinfonieorchester Koln in these symphonies?
So, has nobody listened to this set yet?
Quote from: Todd on April 29, 2008, 04:54:47 AM
A relatively recent addition to my collection, and a superb one. Long readings, with especially long opening movements in all four symphonies, but they never sound slow or heavy. Lyricism where appropriate, oomph where needed. I can think of no cycle I like better - though I shan't be discarding my old standbys.
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/31/19231.jpg)
Man, this looks good. Mainly because I love their Requiem on Audite.
Hey, folks. I'd be interested to hear some thoughts on Gielen's recent Brahms cycle; I have heard his Fourth and have to say that it's my favorite performance since Carlos Kleiber's. A bit brisk but entirely fabulous - wondering if the other three are up to that standard.
In the opposite direction, I have heard the first three symphonies from Marek Janowski's ongoing cycle and cannot wait for the Fourth to be released. So far the music-making has been fabulous, with highly accomplished playing from Pittsburgh.
Quote from: Brian on April 29, 2008, 11:20:55 AM
Hey, folks. I'd be interested to hear some thoughts on Gielen's recent Brahms cycle; I have heard his Fourth and have to say that it's my favorite performance since Carlos Kleiber's. A bit brisk but entirely fabulous - wondering if the other three are up to that standard.
In the opposite direction, I have heard the first three symphonies from Marek Janowski's ongoing cycle and cannot wait for the Fourth to be released. So far the music-making has been fabulous, with highly accomplished playing from Pittsburgh.
Has he completed the cycle? Gielen, that is. If he has,
where do I buy it? ;D
Janowski's Brahms I've heard live, the 3rd symphony. Highly energetic, virile reading to be sure; but I'll have to wait for him to wrap up the cycle, maybe "cross-examine" a few reviews before making the purchase.
(I'm already past my 20th Brahms cycle, I think. So even though these are a known obsession for me, there's no rush. :P)
Quote from: Renfield on April 29, 2008, 01:14:04 PM
Has he completed the cycle? Gielen, that is. If he has, where do I buy it? ;D
He has. :) It's only on single CDs, though; results 2, 3 and 4 (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_seeall_1?ie=UTF8&rs=&keywords=gielen%20brahms&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Agielen%20brahms%2Ci%3Apopular) here and also available for download on eMusic. :)
Quote from: Renfield on April 29, 2008, 01:14:04 PM
(I'm already past my 20th Brahms cycle, I think. So even though these are a known obsession for me, there's no rush. :P)
Care to share your very favorites?
Quote from: George on April 29, 2008, 03:11:41 PM
Care to share your very favorites?
That is a hard question, if ever there was any.
A great part of why I collect Brahms symphony cycles so obsessively is that they all seem to have something different to say, and it's very hard to stick to just one, or two, or even
five.
However, I'll give the issue some thought, maybe get a chance to listen to Gielen's as well, and get back to you on that. :)
Thanks. :)
Boxset, '85 Suitner. Cycle (three single CDs), '64 Karajan. DVD, '73 Karajan.
I was too curious so I had to acquire the French Sony version of the 1st and 2nd in addition to the UA release I already had. I compared the Fourth movement of the 2nd symphony, and to be honest I get slightly confused as to which version I prefer. The French Sony probably has a more natural sound, and e.g the woodwind has a more full, beautiful sound. The UA version is bit more on the bright side, and in fact it sounds more like a historic recording. I don't know why, but it sounds more rhythmic and exciting (maybe because it's more compressed?); like e.g. in the blazing end of the this movement. Have any of you compared these recordings as well?
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/UAR004-3.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31QCPAVB1JL._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: rubio on May 12, 2008, 04:00:10 AM
I was too curious so I had to acquire the French Sony version of the 1st and 2nd in addition to the UA release I already had. I compared the Fourth movement of the 2nd symphony, and to be honest I get slightly confused as to which version I prefer. The French Sony probably has a more natural sound, and e.g the woodwind has a more full, beautiful sound. The UA version is bit more on the bright side, and in fact it sounds more like a historic recording. I don't know why, but it sounds more rhythmic and exciting (maybe because it's more compressed?); like e.g. in the blazing end of the this movement. Have any of you compared these recordings as well?
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/UAR004-3.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31QCPAVB1JL._AA240_.jpg)
Ah,
that cycle. I recall at least one conversation when I had asked about the same thing previously, where
Que eventually provided a wonderful link to a thorough comparison of the two remasterings (IIRC).
Now that I have had both for a while, and obviously very subjectively, I seem to deviate towards the UA remastering, in my listening.
Both have their merits, as you said, but I'm starting to suspect the French remastering's extra "breadth" of sound is what makes it sound slightly fuzzier to my ears, while the UA remastering comes off as harsh but more precise, to me.
So all in all, I second the idea of the French Sony remastering being warmer and wider, but the UA being sprightlier, in a way. :)
(Though digging up that link would be best. I seem to recall the cross-comparison being very thorough!)
Like renfeld, I've gone through a number of Brahms sets --- more, perhaps, than with any other composer --- looking for perfection. Well, I now have the French Sony set, and I can stop looking. Walter's performances with the NYPO are, movement by movement, the strongest I have heard, and I cannot imagine a more dynamix and engrossing reading the the Fourth. The mono sound is a little thin through earphones, but over speakers, there is no reason to complain.
Quote from: Renfield on May 13, 2008, 08:38:02 AM
Ah, that cycle. I recall at least one conversation when I had asked about the same thing previously, where Que eventually provided a wonderful link to a thorough comparison of the two remasterings (IIRC).
Now that I have had both for a while, and obviously very subjectively, I seem to deviate towards the UA remastering, in my listening.
Both have their merits, as you said, but I'm starting to suspect the French remastering's extra "breadth" of sound is what makes it sound slightly fuzzier to my ears, while the UA remastering comes off as harsh but more precise, to me.
So all in all, I second the idea of the French Sony remastering being warmer and wider, but the UA being sprightlier, in a way. :)
(Though digging up that link would be best. I seem to recall the cross-comparison being very thorough!)
I also lean towards the UA transfer as it seems sprightlier/more rhythmic and precise. I get a real kick out of the ending of this Walter NYPO 2nd symphony like in no other performance. The French Sony issue kicks slightly less, but it has other merits.
There's a box set somewhere with Celibidache conducting Italian Radio orchestras. Celi makes those 3rd rate ensembles sound almost first rate. Only Furtwangler could do the same...
Quote from: FredT on May 17, 2008, 01:03:30 PM
There's a box set somewhere with Celibidache conducting Italian Radio orchestras. Celi makes those 3rd rate ensembles sound almost first rate. Only Furtwangler could do the same...
Add Karajan to that list. In fact, most great conductors: I'd say it's part of the all-round achievement that characterises a conductor we later call "great". :)
It could maybe not be called a cycle, but it comes pretty close (contains only the 3rd movement of the 1st symphony). Any opinions on Mengelberg's way with Brahms?
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0636943116425.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0636943115824.jpg)
The Brahms VC with Herman Krebbers also seem very interesting.
Quote from: rubio on July 19, 2008, 02:06:15 AM
It could maybe not be called a cycle, but it comes pretty close (contains only the 3rd movement of the 1st symphony). Any opinions on Mengelberg's way with Brahms?
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0636943116425.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0636943115824.jpg)
The Brahms VC with Herman Krebbers also seem very interesting.
Alas, I only have one of those discs: the one with the 3rd symphony.
And I say "alas" because, out of lack of a better way to put it, Mengelberg's Brahms
was quite something. Not to everyone's taste, as I seem to recall briefly commenting with
Que, but the man had an opinion, and a tremendous orchestra to back it up with! 8)
Idiomatic, then, sometimes downright odd Brahms. But I do recommend at least the disc I own, if nothing else for the simply stupendous Academic Festival Overture, which I still consider the best recording of the piece I own! :)
Quote from: Renfield on July 19, 2008, 02:27:20 AM
Alas, I only have one of those discs: the one with the 3rd symphony.
And I say "alas" because, out of lack of a better way to put it, Mengelberg's Brahms was quite something. Not to everyone's taste, as I seem to recall briefly commenting with Que, but the man had an opinion, and a tremendous orchestra to back it up with! 8)
Idiomatic, then, sometimes downright odd Brahms. But I do recommend at least the disc I own, if nothing else for the simply stupendous Academic Festival Overture, which I still consider the best recording of the piece I own! :)
Thanks for the comment, Renfield! These Naxos CD's are quite cheap, so I will pick them up if I have them in front of me. :)
Kubelik
Barenboim (Erato)
Walter
Szell
i would say solti sym1 with CSO is good.....especially 4th movement........
Quote from: Renfield on July 26, 2008, 03:57:37 AM
Which one, pray tell? :)
With the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.
Quote from: Philoctetes on July 26, 2008, 08:07:35 AM
With the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.
Have you tried the NYPO cycle?
Quote from: Renfield on July 26, 2008, 10:09:05 AM
Have you tried the NYPO cycle?
I actually think I might have that one around as well.
Quote from: Philoctetes on July 26, 2008, 10:09:32 AM
I actually think I might have that one around as well.
I've only heard the 2nd and 3rd from the Columbia cycle, but I strongly prefer his earlier work as a whole. Even more so a 3rd with the Vienna Philharmonic in an Andante release I recently picked up, which is quite
superb.But more about that box in this thread at a later point, once I've gone through all the contents; I do intend to make a post about it. :)
I listened to some Brahms lately, and more specifically these three sets.
The Kempe is still my slight favourite among all the sets I own. I love the broadness combined with the inner pulse, dancing rhythms and forward thrust of these readings. The BPO strings are just delicious :).
The Kubelik and the Sanderling I would characterise as middle of the road Brahms interpretations. I clearly prefer Kubelik of these two sets. He and the BRSO has an immaculate sense of the subtle details in the music and the balances between orchestral sections. It has a darker hue than Kempe and the readings feel quite dramatic. I just miss the last ounce of forward thrust. The readings are a tad slower than Kempe, but especially the Kubelik third recieves a very cohenrent reading. I find this the most difficult of Brahms symphonies to pull off successfully.
The Sanderling/SD set is on the lusher, warmer side with beautiful playing from the orchestra. Especially the 4th receives a fine, emotional reading. I still find Kubelik's readings more dynamic and exciting. And the playings of the BRSO is also very fine.
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SBT3054.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/8337928.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0743213036724.jpg)
Quote from: rubio on August 17, 2008, 04:09:39 AM
I listened to some Brahms lately, and more specifically these three sets.
The Kempe is still my slight favourite among all the sets I own. I love the broadness combined with the inner pulse, dancing rhythms and forward thrust of these readings. The BPO strings are just delicious :).
The Kubelik and the Sanderling I would characterise as middle of the road Brahms interpretations. I clearly prefer Kubelik of these two sets. He and the BRSO has an immaculate sense of the subtle details in the music and the balances between orchestral sections. It has a darker hue than Kempe and the readings feel quite dramatic. I just miss the last ounce of forward thrust. The readings are a tad slower than Kempe, but especially the Kubelik third receives a very coherent reading. I find this the most difficult of Brahms symphonies to pull off successfully.
The Sanderling/SD set is on the lusher, warmer side with beautiful playing from the orchestra. Especially the 4th receives a fine, emotional reading. I still find Kubelik's readings more dynamic and exciting. And the playings of the BRSO is also very fine.
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SBT3054.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/8337928.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0743213036724.jpg)
Kubelik slower than Kempe, mmhh that is pretty slow! :) I already find Kempe too slow, but he makes more than up for this by his beautiful interpretation. That Kubelik is slow as well does no come as a surprise since his performance of the German Requiem (also on Orfeo - live rec.) is also slow, and has a rather "Mahlerian" feel to it, btw.
I tried one disc of the Sanderling. That cycle has a strong reputation but I wasn't that impressed, other than by the absolutely gorgeous sounding orchestra. Very middle of the road and undercharacterised IMO.
Q
Quote from: Que on August 17, 2008, 11:18:39 PM
Kubelik slower than Kempe, mmhh that is pretty slow! :) I already find Kempe too slow, but he makes more than up for this by his beautiful interpretation. That Kubelik is slow as well does no come as a surprise since his performance of the German Requiem (also on Orfeo - live rec.) is also slow, and has a rather "Mahlerian" feel to it, btw.
I tried one disc of the Sanderling. That cycle has a strong reputation but I wasn't that impressed, other than by the absolutely gorgeous sounding orchestra. Very middle of the road and undercharacterised IMO.
Q
Kubelik is probably not much slower than Kempe, but I find a bit more thrust and power in Kempe's interpretation. Still I really like Kubelik, because of his nice phrasing and attention to details. BRSO is an orchestra I like a lot also. I saw there was a really cheap new copy at Amazon. Probably you snapped that up :).
My impression of the Sanderling/SD is pretty much the same as yours. As I have plenty of Brahms cycles in my limited spaced apartment - this one went up to the attic. I just did not connect too much with it (exceot for the 4th).
Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum!
Or at least I hereby commit it. 0:)
So here's our long-neglected thread about Brahms cycles. Feel free to post things in it again. :)
I'd start, but my Brahms obsession doesn't quite make me the best arbiter over what would constitute an interesting and relevant topic.
Does anyone know how the Kempe BPO Brahms compares to his Munich Brahms cycle? The Munich cycle seems to be a bit easier (and cheaper) to come by. I have a BPO Tragic Overture that was included with the EMI/IMG Great Conductors Kempe set. Is that the same one that is on his complete cycle? That one is a scorcher! One of the most intense performances I have ever heard.
Quote from: MishaK on April 01, 2011, 06:08:59 PM
Does anyone know how the Kempe BPO Brahms compares to his Munich Brahms cycle?
Good question! I have the BPO cycle, and I see the Munich cycle is indeed available in the following form:
[asin]B00006CXXV[/asin]
[asin]B00006CXXX[/asin]
Re: the BPO cycle, it's been years since I gave it a spin. I remember it as rather 'warm', singing Brahms. Sort of Günter Wand
ish, without being
that laid back.
If someone can get back to us about the Munich cycle, I'll see about going through the Berlin one and posting updated impressions, sometime in the next few days.
Quote from: Renfield on April 01, 2011, 06:22:29 PM
Re: the BPO cycle, it's been years since I gave it a spin. I remember it as rather 'warm', singing Brahms. Sort of Günter Wandish, without being laid back.
Hmmm... judging by the Tragic Overture alone (and some of his work in other repertoire), Kempe strikes me as being a lot more intense and with a richer color palette than Wand. That's precisely why I'm interested in his Brahms.
Quote from: MishaK on April 01, 2011, 06:25:15 PM
Hmmm... judging by the Tragic Overture alone (and some of his work in other repertoire), Kempe strikes me as being a lot more intense and with a richer color palette than Wand. That's precisely why I'm interested in his Brahms.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to convey with my comment. He's like a more saturated and intense Wand, roughly speaking.
A couple of recent (re)issues:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/PH11019.jpg)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/8802063.jpg)
Quote from: The new erato on April 01, 2011, 11:02:03 PM
A couple of recent (re)issues:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/PH11019.jpg)
Hm. The Berlin Symphony Orchestra? ???
I see they're called the Konzerthausorchester Berlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konzerthausorchester_Berlin) now... Still, any good?
Newly reappeared, and highly praised around GMG:
[asin]B004H6P2LU[/asin]
Quote from: Brian on April 04, 2011, 05:55:16 AM
Newly reappeared, and highly praised around GMG:
[asin]B004H6P2LU[/asin]
I don't have 2-4, just 1 and the Requiem from this cycle and both are excellent. One of the most intense, pedal-to-the-metal No.1s in the entire catalog. I think I may have to invest in the complete cycle now that it's available cheaply and re-sell my single issue 1 and Requiem.
Quote from: MishaK on April 04, 2011, 06:19:15 AM
I don't have 2-4, just 1 and the Requiem from this cycle and both are excellent. One of the most intense, pedal-to-the-metal No.1s in the entire catalog. I think I may have to invest in the complete cycle now that it's available cheaply and re-sell my single issue 1 and Requiem.
Is the audio engineering good?
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 04, 2011, 06:20:12 AM
Is the audio engineering good?
I have to confess not having listened to it in a while, but I recall it being on par for standard 70s analog stereo. IIRC, this was recorded at Medinah Temple, which avoids some of the dryness and balancing issues in the old Orchestra Hall, but I'm not entirely sure.
Quote from: MishaK on April 04, 2011, 06:25:26 AM
I have to confess not having listened to it in a while, but I recall it being on par for standard 70s analog stereo. IIRC, this was recorded at Medinah Temple, which avoids some of the dryness and balancing issues in the old Orchestra Hall, but I'm not entirely sure.
Hmmm. Back in the days of vinyl when RCA pressings (with dynagroove) were horrid I developed the a very negative impression of RCA which I have never shaken off. Aside from a few "Living Stereo" recording with Reiner I don't know if I have a single RCA recording.
FWIW, Hurwitz, in the context of reviewing Levine's later VPO/DG cycle, mentions the earlier CSO/RCA cycle as "one of the best ones".
http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11432
On amazon, the prolific
and generally reliable "Santa Fe Listener" has this to say about sound:
Quote
This cycle was previously available in Japan, and despite the 24-bit remastering, I find no sonic difference between that version and this one. Sony BMG hasn't even taken the trboule to match sound levels, so that the First and Fourth Sym., which are disc mates on CD 1, differ widely. Overall, the sound is good, but the brass and timpani are placed a bit too far back for maximum impact in the First. At high volume the strings turn a bit gritty, also.
http://www.amazon.com/James-Levine-Conducts-Brahms/dp/B004H6P2LU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1301933350&sr=8-1
Quote from: MishaK on April 04, 2011, 07:55:08 AMOn amazon, the prolific and generally reliable "Santa Fe Listener" has this to say about sound:
Prolific, yes, reliable? If he ridicules something, I buy it immediately.
On amazon I find J Scott Morrison to be the most helpful review of classical recordings.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 04, 2011, 08:43:21 AM
Prolific, yes, reliable? If he ridicules something, I buy it immediately.
On amazon I find J Scott Morrison to be the most helpful review of classical recordings.
Yes, sorry, you're right. I confused the two. SFL does have some kooky biases at times.
Quote from: MishaK on April 04, 2011, 08:48:47 AM
Yes, sorry, you're right. I confused the two. SFL does have some kooky biases at times.
Yes, he really should transfer here.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 04, 2011, 06:41:38 AM
Hmmm. Back in the days of vinyl when RCA pressings (with dynagroove) were horrid I developed the a very negative impression of RCA which I have never shaken off. Aside from a few "Living Stereo" recording with Reiner I don't know if I have a single RCA recording.
RCA seemed to go downhill fast in the mid-60s, with the big exception of the recordings they made with Previn.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 04, 2011, 06:41:38 AM
Hmmm. Back in the days of vinyl when RCA pressings (with dynagroove) were horrid I developed the a very negative impression of RCA which I have never shaken off. Aside from a few "Living Stereo" recording with Reiner I don't know if I have a single RCA recording.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I recall you mentioning having heard Levine's early Mahler at some point - on RCA. :)
As for the Brahms, I was definitely impressed enough by his later 3rd with the VPO to add the Chicago cycle re-release to my 'buy ASAP' list.
Quote from: Renfield on April 09, 2011, 02:16:19 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I recall you mentioning having heard Levine's early Mahler at some point - on RCA. :)
No, you must be thinking of someone else, I didn't even know those recordings existed until that box set came out.
I have an enjoy a number of Levine recordings, but no Mahler.
Thinking back, the only RCA set's I can think of on my shelves (aside from the classic RCA Living Stereo recordings from the Reiner era) are a set of Roussel symphonies with Janowski and the old Beethoven string quartet cycle with the Guarneri.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 09, 2011, 03:13:13 PM
No, you must be thinking of someone else, I didn't even know those recordings existed until that box set came out.
I have an enjoy a number of Levine recordings, but no Mahler.
Thinking back, the only RCA set's I can think of on my shelves (aside from the classic RCA Living Stereo recordings from the Reiner era) are a set of Roussel symphonies with Janowski and the old Beethoven string quartet cycle with the Guarneri.
Apologies. I must have conflated a comment from you about Levine with some by
Sarge on his Mahler. Though this is quite off-topic, I found that Mahler set is interesting, and quite well-recorded, if not quite something to write home about in sonic terms.
(Which may or may not translate to your 'horrid', depending on one's particular expectations!)
Further, since you mentioned Janowski, there's his Ring on RCA as well, similarly well-recorded, in that artificial-yet-well-realised way. I hear he's redoing it for Pentatone, similar to his redux of the earlier
Brahms (back on topic!) cycle with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vnjEJvrrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
This set is becoming a favorite of mine, been listening to the 4th this afternoon, and it's a wonder of rhythmic coherency with great details from the orchestra. There is something to capture at every twist and turn of the recording.
8)
i just heard the 1st symphony with abravanel and: oh my god!
will make my way through the rest of the cycle for sure...
From tsrauser in the Buy & Sell board, I recently received Harnoncourt and Wand/NDR. Harnoncourt's Third was almost operatic in its supercharged emotion... looking forward to contrasting the two conductors for sure.
Bumping this thread to ask all of you Brahms nuts for a recommendation!
I currently have these four cycles in my collection:
Klemperer/Philharmonia
Karajan 1960's
Levine/Chicago
Bernstein/VPO
And single discs of the fourth by Kleiber/VPO and Abbado/BPO.
I'm looking to add another one, preferably a modern cycle with good sonics and a smaller (HIP?) orchestra. Any particular ones I should look into? The Mackerras set on Telarc is looking good. What do people think of the Gardiner recordings?
There are also Daniel Harding's recordings, if I recall correctly, they're with a small modern orchestra.
Since there's been some discussion of RCA here, and some really superlative recommendations of
Günter Wand's RCA (?) Brahms cycle, has anyone heard rumblings of a forthcoming Wand edition that might include that Brahms cycle, or for that matter, any other ~RCA Wand? I ask only because it seems like the Brahms/Wand/RCA is swiftly dropping out of availability, as did that nice-looking but awkwardly large (sorry, I am child of the compact disc) Wand GREAT RECORDINGS box.
That
Japanese Wand "Live" box from last spring looks great---the Lübeck Bruckner 8th! I need it!---but it doesn't seem to contain the 1982~83 Brahms recordings that I have heard praise for.
Quote
A new 33 CD box of Gunther Wand "Live Recordings" compiled by Sony/RCA
Korea becomes available at most Japanese classical sites on May 10
2012. A few links:
http://tower.jp/item/3095653/Gunter-Wand-Live
http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/5040197
http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B007WYU3HM
Are there any Wand completists out there who care tell us how much of
this is previously issued, readily availalbe, not available, etc?
Track Listing from Tower:
DISC 1
Brahms, Johannes: Symphony No.1 in c Op.68 Symphony Orchestra Chicago
Recording: 1989.1, Chicago, Orchestra Hall
DISC 2
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.3 in d (Version 1,889) NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1992.1.12-14, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 3
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.4 in E-Flat "Die Romantische" NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1990.6.17-19, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 4
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.6 in A (Original Version 1879-1881) NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1995.5.15, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 5
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.7 in E (Original Version 1881-83) NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording : 1992.3.15-17, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 6-7
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.8 in c (Haas Edition) NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1993.12.5-7, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 8
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No in .9 d (Original Version) NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1993.3.7-9, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 9
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No.1 in C Op.21 NDR-Sinfonieorchester
Recording: 1997.12.7-9, Hamburg , Musikhalle
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No.2 in D Op.36 NDR-Sinfonieorchester
Recording: 1999.2.21-23, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 10
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Serenade in D K.320 "Posthorn"
Beethoven, Ludwig van : Symphony No.4 in B-Flat Op.60 NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 2001.4.8-10, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 11
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Leonore Overture No.3 Op.72B- NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1990.6.17 -19, Hamburg, Musikhalle
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No.3 in E-Flat Op.55 "Eroica" NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1989.12.10-12, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 12
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No.6 in F Op.68 "Pastorale"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No.5 in c Op.67 NDR-Sinfonieorchester
Recording: 1992.10.11-13, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 13
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No.3 in D D. two hundred NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1992.11.29-12.1, Hamburg, Musikhalle
Schumann, Robert: Symphony No.3 in E-Flat Op.97 "Rheinische" NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1991.9.15-17, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 14
Schumann , Robert: Symphony No.4 Op.120 in d NDR-Sinfonieorchester
Recording: 1990.9.30-10.2, Hamburg, Musikhalle
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No.8 in b D.759 "Unfinished" NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1991.4.21 -23, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 15
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No.9 in C D.944 "The Great" NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1991.4.21-23, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 16
Brahms, Johannes: Symphony No.1 in c Op.68 NDR-Sinfonieorchester
Recording: 1996.4.21-23, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 17
Brahms, Johannes: Symphony No.2 in D Op.73 NDR-Sinfonieorchester
Recording: 1996.7.9-11, Hamburg, Musikhalle
Brahms, Johannes: Symphony No.3 in F Op.90 NDR-Sinfonieorchester
Recording: 1995.4.9-11, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 18 Brahms, Johannes: Symphony No.4 Op.98 in e NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1997.12.7-9, Hamburg , Musikhalle
DISC 19 -20
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.5 in B-Flat (Original Version 1875-78)
NDR-Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1989.10.8-10, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 20
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.6 in A NDR -Sinfonieorchester Recording:
1988.12.4 / 5, Hamburg, Musikhalle
DISC 21-22
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.8 in c (Haas Edition) NDR-
Sinfonieorchester Recording: 1987.8.22-23, Luebecker, Dom
DISC 23
Bruckner, Anton : Symphony No.9 in d NDR-Sinfonieorchester Recording:
1988.6.24-26, Luebecker, Dom twenty-four
DISC 25
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No.8 in b D.759 "Unfinished"
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No.9 in C D.944 "The Great" Berliner
Philharmoniker Recording: 1995.3.28/29, Berlin, Philharmonie
DISC 26
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.4 in E-Flat "Die Romantische" Berliner
Philharmoniker Recording: 1998.1.30-2.1, Berlin , Philharmonie
DISC 27
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.5 in B-Flat (Original Version 1875-78)
Berliner Philharmoniker Recording: 1996.1.12-14, Berlin, Philharmonie
DISC 28
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.7 in E (Original 1881-83 version)
Berliner Philharmoniker Recording: 1999.11.19-21, Berlin,
Philharmonie
DISC 29-30
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.8 in c (Original Version) Berliner
Philharmoniker Recording: 2001.1.19-22, Berlin, Philharmonie
DISC 31
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.9 in d (Original Version) Berliner
Philharmoniker Recording: 1998.9.18/20, Berlin, Philharmonie
DISC 32-33
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No.4 in E-Flat "Romantische Die" (Version
1878-1880; Nowak Edition)
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No.5 in B-Flat D.485 NDR-Sinfonieorchester
Recording: 2001.10.28-30, Hamburg, Musikhalle
taken from:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/Y-npofKwRuQ (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/Y-npofKwRuQ)
Quote from: betterthanfine on January 23, 2013, 01:00:46 PM
Bumping this thread to ask all of you Brahms nuts for a recommendation!
I currently have these four cycles in my collection:
Klemperer/Philharmonia
Karajan 1960's
Levine/Chicago
Bernstein/VPO
I'm looking to add another one, preferably a modern cycle with good sonics and a smaller (HIP?) orchestra. Any particular ones I should look into? The Mackerras set on Telarc is looking good. What do people think of the Gardiner recordings?
Well, first surprised that I'm not subscribed to this thread! :)
Currently, I have 3 sets (several more culled out in the past), including the
Klemperer - my two more recent additions are below, i.e.
Mackerras & Dohnanyi; as you state, the Mackerras will in part satisfy your criteria of a smaller orchestra w/ good sonics - the instruments are 'mixed' w/ period brass ones - several short reviews reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=10241); a number of 3* ratings on Amazon which appear to simply be a preference for a LARGE band, IMO.
Dohnanyi is w/ the Cleveland Orch from the late 1980s-90; super bargain on the Amazon MP for 4 discs (includes a couple overtures & the Violin Concerto). I could add another set and will be quite interested in other posts - good luck in your selection(s)!
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-wWM8jtQ/0/O/BrahmsMackerras.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51EdOP+SupL.jpg)
My complete sets...
Mackerras/Scottish CO - Telarc
Levine/CSO - RCA
Bernstein/VPO - DG
Solti/CSO - Decca
Harnoncourt/BPO - Teldec
Karajan/BPO - DG (80s)
I find the most consistent of these sets to be Mackerras and Levine, and Harnoncourt's sounds fresh and unique (similar to his Schubert cycle) so it's never too far behind, plus it contains my favorite No.2. I should say that much of my enthusiasm for Mackerras is in Telarc's sound and the crisp and balanced display of the Scottish Chamber Orchestra. I do find their No.1 to be tad dull, but great in the other three. Bernstein's is slow in all the right places, and slow in all the wrong places.
Unfortunately, none of these sets hold my favorite No.4, at the moment that would go to Kleiber, and surprisingly Barenboim/CSO. To me, the 4th is all about the tempi, and these two get it right, especially with a swift finale.
Quote from: Octave on January 25, 2013, 10:26:02 PM
That Japanese Wand "Live" box from last spring looks great---the Lübeck Bruckner 8th! I need it!---but it doesn't seem to contain the 1982~83 Brahms recordings that I have heard praise for.
Oh, but it contains his 1989 live Brahms 1 with CSO! That is pure gold. The interpretation is not meaningfully different than his NDR version, but a) it has the electricity and spontaneity of a live performance, which is an ingredient often a bit missing in studio Wand, and b) that orchestra is leagues better than 1980s NDR. Just a stupendous performance.
I would go to three or four recorded cycles:
Kubelik BRSO on Orfeo for pure music making, lyrical and for lack of a better word, Bayerisch: sunny.
Wand with the NDR, live mid nineties, for a 'Northern' reading. Orchestral colors (and Brahms was a master colorist) are suppressed, but the intensity is great.
Giulini in a mixed collection: 1 and 2 from Los Angeles, 4 from Chicago and 3 from Vienna. Grand, de luxe readings.
Kempe in Munich.
Occasionally I pick Bernstein's 2 or 4 from Vienna or Haitink, Amsterdam or Boston (not London).
I own zero Brahms. I traded it all with my Dad in exchange for some RVW, Prokofiev, and Bartok I didn't own. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 09, 2013, 07:26:25 AM
I own zero Brahms. I traded it all with my Dad in exchange for some RVW, Prokofiev, and Bartok I didn't own. :)
Nothing wrong with that! ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 09, 2013, 07:26:25 AM
I own zero Brahms. I traded it all with my Dad in exchange for some RVW, Prokofiev, and Bartok I didn't own. :)
I don't own any Brahms either, John.
Brahms owns me! $:)
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 09, 2013, 07:33:13 AM
I don't own any Brahms either, John.
Brahms owns me! $:)
:D
Quote from: North Star on January 23, 2013, 01:09:37 PM
There are also Daniel Harding's recordings, if I recall correctly, they're with a small modern orchestra.
I have Harding's 3rd & 4th (and his violin concerto with Isabelle Faust) and like them quite a bit. Note that I do not care for the over-stuffed, densely padded, thick-textured Big Band Brahms that predates the HIPsters.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 09, 2013, 09:29:36 AM
I have Harding's 3rd & 4th (and his violin concerto with Isabelle Faust) and like them quite a bit. Note that I do not care for the over-stuffed, densely padded, thick-textured Big Band Brahms that predates the HIPsters.
That VC recording slipped my mind when posting. Both discs are definitely on the top of the list of next Brahms discs to get. I too am not a fan of excessive thickness, but e.g. Rattle & BPO is fine in my opinion. (although it's been a while since the last time I listened to that)
Quote from: North Star on January 23, 2013, 01:09:37 PM
There are also Daniel Harding's recordings, if I recall correctly, they're with a small modern orchestra.
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 26, 2013, 09:15:29 AM
Well, first surprised that I'm not subscribed to this thread! :)
Currently, I have 3 sets (several more culled out in the past), including the Klemperer - my two more recent additions are below, i.e. Mackerras & Dohnanyi; as you state, the Mackerras will in part satisfy your criteria of a smaller orchestra w/ good sonics - the instruments are 'mixed' w/ period brass ones - several short reviews reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=10241); a number of 3* ratings on Amazon which appear to simply be a preference for a LARGE band, IMO.
Dohnanyi is w/ the Cleveland Orch from the late 1980s-90; super bargain on the Amazon MP for 4 discs (includes a couple overtures & the Violin Concerto). I could add another set and will be quite interested in other posts - good luck in your selection(s)!
Thanks both of you for the suggestions! I think Mackerras is my man, but the price is a bit steep at the moment. I'll just hang on until I come across a good deal. :)
Quote from: betterthanfine on February 10, 2013, 12:53:57 AM
I think Mackerras is my man, but the price is a bit steep at the moment. I'll just hang on until I come across a good deal. :)
Telarcs are often available cheap at Berkshire Record Outlet.
Bill
Hi,
I currently own complete sets of:
Karajan/60's
Bernstein/NY
Walter/ColSO
Abbado/BPO
ArkivMusic has the Klemperer set on sale this weekend for $9.99USD. The price is certainly right...any thoughts on this set?
Quote from: Jersey Joe on February 16, 2013, 03:22:26 AM
ArkivMusic has the Klemperer set on sale this weekend for $9.99USD. The price is certainly right...any thoughts on this set?
I love Klemperer's Brahms, but there is that brand new 4cd set, which would only cost you ~$2.40 more than the old 3cd from Arkiv, but also includes Klemperer's REQUIEM, which is probably one to have if you dig Brahms. I think that's the better deal, if not by much. My only personal reference for your own Brahms collection is the Karajan, if that makes any difference; I don't yet know the others you mention....
[asin]B00A4AI19I[/asin]
Quote from: Octave on February 16, 2013, 03:33:20 AM
I love Klemperer's Brahms, but there is that brand new 4cd set of Klemperer's Brahms, which would only cost you ~$2.40 more than the old 3cd from Arkiv, but also includes Klemperer's REQUIEM, which is probably one to have if you dig Brahms. I think that's the better deal, if not by much. My only personal reference for your own Brahms collection is the Karajan, if that makes any difference; I don't yet know the others you mention....
[asin]B00A4AI19I[/asin]
Klemperer's Brahms is mandatory IMO, I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned more! :)
Q
There's a complete set of Brahms symphonies from Hans Rosbaud live in Baden Baden on symphonyshare. The sound is poor, the performances are astonishing. The 4 is now one of my top recommendations for this symphony.
Thank you Octave, Que, and Mandryka. As I wasn't actively in the market for another Brahms set, I've decided to pass for now. I am very happy with the sets I own.
edit: what is symphonyshare?
It's not strictly The Topic . . . but there is a lovely e minor symphony in this box:
[asin]B0001ZMBV0[/asin]
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2013, 01:01:27 PM
It's not strictly The Topic . . . but there is a lovely e minor symphony in this box:
[asin]B0001ZMBV0[/asin]
There was also a GROC with the symphony.
[asin]B0002VEQFM[/asin]
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2013, 11:11:10 AM
There's a complete set of Brahms symphonies from Hans Rosbaud live in Baden Baden on symphonyshare. The sound is poor, the performances are astonishing. The 4 is now one of my top recommendations for this symphony.
Wow, thanks for the heads up! I'm listening to Rosbaud's Brahms 3 now, absolutely incredible, uplifting, and immediately one of my most treasured Brahms' 3rds.
Quote from: Leo K. on March 03, 2013, 12:29:36 PM
Wow, thanks for the heads up! I'm listening to Rosbaud's Brahms 3 now, absolutely incredible, uplifting, and immediately one of my most treasured Brahms' 3rds.
I can't get enough of Rosbaud's Brahms broadcasts. I am amazed.
Quote from: Leo K. on April 01, 2013, 11:53:18 AM
I can't get enough of Rosbaud's Brahms broadcasts. I am amazed.
Glad you like them. It was the Brahms 4 which impressed me most.
Try his eroica. It's interesting.. As is his Schubert 9.
Ok, so these (below) are the Brahms sets I have already, can you guys tell me if Sanderling/Dresden and/or Klemperer/Philharmonia is/are significantly enough different than these to warrant a purchase?
Karajan - 60s DG
Wand - RCA
Walter - SONY
Jochum - EMI
Furtwangler - Music and Arts
Barbirolli - EMI
Quote from: George on April 08, 2013, 12:17:24 PM
Ok, so these (below) are the Brahms sets I have already, can you guys tell me if Sanderling/Dresden and/or Klemperer/Philharmonia is/are significantly enough different than these to warrant a purchase?
Karajan - 60s DG
Wand - RCA
Walter - SONY
Jochum - EMI
Furtwangler - Music and Arts
Barbirolli - EMI
Hey, George. I used to have the Sanderling/Dresden cycle. And of those on your list I currently own Jochum's EMI (save the 4th) and I once owned a cobbled Furtwängler cycle.
How Sanderling's set fits in this company is hard to say. It definitely has a unique "sound" - big, lush, and expansive. I'm almost tempted to say "sprawling" as Sanderling isn't interested in conciseness. No doubt it's quality stuff but ultimately my taste in Brahms has gravitated towards a warm yet sharper type of interpretation and I ended up selling the Sanderling.
These days though I make my pitch for an unjustly neglected cycle from Jansons and the Oslo PO, which I also mention here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21661.msg709988.html#msg709988)
Thanks Don!
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 09, 2013, 09:29:36 AM
I have Harding's 3rd & 4th (and his violin concerto with Isabelle Faust) and like them quite a bit. Note that I do not care for the over-stuffed, densely padded, thick-textured Big Band Brahms that predates the HIPsters.
Good man! Harding's stuff is great. The 3rd is my favorite 3rd, actually. :)
I've been very impressed with Harnoncourt's Berlin cycle the last few weeks, I resisted it for a long time, but that was so wrong, it's an amazing cycle.
Quote from: Leo K. on April 20, 2013, 07:07:44 PM
I've been very impressed with Harnoncourt's Berlin cycle the last few weeks, I resisted it for a long time, but that was so wrong, it's an amazing cycle.
+1
After stumbling on samples of this disc I ordered it. If it turns out as good as it seems, I'll probably spring for the other installments in the cycle.
[asin]B00004TZT2[/asin]
Quote from: Leo K. on April 20, 2013, 07:07:44 PM
I've been very impressed with Harnoncourt's Berlin cycle the last few weeks, I resisted it for a long time, but that was so wrong, it's an amazing cycle.
Very well played, sure, but... aren't Harnoncourt a bit... how to say it?... a bit 'pastoral' in his overall approach? I mean voltage is consistently rather low thoughout the cycle. Maybe the recording is to blame. I perhaps have to give a second chance to Nikolaus after all...
Quote from: Parsifal on April 20, 2013, 08:39:16 PM
After stumbling on samples of this disc I ordered it. If it turns out as good as it seems, I'll probably spring for the other installments in the cycle.
[asin]B00004TZT2[/asin]
Make sure to let us know what you think.
Quote from: Obradovic on April 21, 2013, 03:58:43 AM
Very well played, sure, but... aren't Harnoncourt a bit... how to say it?... a bit 'pastoral' in his overall approach? I mean voltage is consistently rather low thoughout the cycle. Maybe the recording is to blame. I perhaps have to give a second chance to Nikolaus after all...
That's true, it is low voltage at least in 1,2 and 4. I think that's a plus point rather than a problem. I liked his 1 a lot because it's so gentle, quiet, noble, moderate emotionally, joyful, lyrical and full of changing textures. Who would have thought that this of all symphonies could be played like that?
What you don't have is tension, excitement and strong emotion. But if you want that there's no shortage of recordings on offer.
And generally I thought the set was full of interesting things.
I haven't heard the 3.
Quote from: Geo Dude on April 21, 2013, 04:55:44 AM
Make sure to let us know what you think.
Had a chance to listen today.
I enjoyed it. It is a live recording (I wasn't aware of this until listening) and this gives it a sense of occasion. It is not one of those studio affairs where the slightest thing is off and the producer announces, "ok, let's go back to bar 68 and see if we can get a cleaner entrance from the oboe." I get the impression that Janson is swinging for the fences and not every effect comes off exactly as planned. Still, I hear things that I did not hear before, and that makes it a good experience for me.
In the first movement Jansons takes what feels like a slow tempo and does not enforce the tightest possible ensemble, giving the music a bit of an impressionistic mist. The second movement is nice, although the big apothesis in the massed strings towards the end of the movement didn't overwhelm. The third movement was good, but could have used a bit more rhythmic snap. The passacaglia was probably the most successful movement here, and there were parts where I noticed brass parts that had seemingly escaped my attention before.
Whether to get the other discs from this series is a question. I have a lot of Brahms on the shelf already.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 21, 2013, 12:56:58 PM
Who would have thought that this of all symphonies could be played like that?
Not even Brahms perhaps! :) I think No.1 (the first movement at least) must sound self-assured and virile, after such long inner torment and conflict. In No.2 the pastoral mood of the first movement should be somehow distinctly defined and demarcated from the similar characters of the second and third movements otherwise boredom might creep in. No.3 is on the same vein I assure you. No.4 is to my ears an intimate but epic and tragic in its articulation and classical balance utterance, Aeschylian I might say and any attempt to play down its qualities works against it. It's a work (not that the other three aren't) treacherously difficult to bring off well. Kleiber and Giulini in Chicago are IMO unbeatable here
Quote from: Obradovic on April 22, 2013, 01:15:51 AM
Not even Brahms perhaps! :) I think No.1 (the first movement at least) must sound self-assured and virile, after such long inner torment and conflict. In No.2 the pastoral mood of the first movement should be somehow distinctly defined and demarcated from the similar characters of the second and third movements otherwise boredom might creep in. No.3 is on the same vein I assure you. No.4 is to my ears an intimate but epic and tragic in its articulation and classical balance utterance, Aeschylian I might say and any attempt to play down its qualities works against it. It's a work (not that the other three aren't) treacherously difficult to bring off well. Kleiber and Giulini in Chicago are IMO unbeatable here
To focus things, can we think of 1/i?
I know that some of the greatest records play it like that. I could easily provide a list, I expect you could too, and I bet Harnoncourt himself could provide such a list. And that sets expectations a certain way. But why shouldn't a more subdued style be appropriate? Do we know much about Brahms intentions and expectations? Is there anything in the music which naturally leads away from small scale dynamics variation and limited emotional content? Those aren't meant to be rhetorical questions, I really don't know. But I do know that in some moods I enjoy Harnoncourt's 1 very much.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 22, 2013, 07:33:13 AM
To focus things, can we think of 1/i?
I know that some of the greatest records play it like that. I could easily provide a list, I expect you could too, and I bet Harnoncourt himself could provide such a list. And that sets expectations a certain way. But why shouldn't a more subdued style be appropriate? Do we know much about Brahms intentions and expectations? Is there anything in the music which naturally leads away from small scale dynamics variation and limited emotional content? Those aren't meant to be rhetorical questions, I really don't know. But I do know that in some moods I enjoy Harnoncourt's 1 very much.
I don't think there is anything new or controversial in the idea that Brahms symphonies can be performed in a lyrical manner. Barbirolli's old cycle with the Vienna Philharmonic did just that, and Fischer's new recording of the first is another example of that approach. Bernstein slowed them way down in his VPO cycle, but I don't think it worked for him.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 22, 2013, 07:33:13 AM
To focus things, can we think of 1/i?
I know that some of the greatest records play it like that. I could easily provide a list, I expect you could too, and I bet Harnoncourt himself could provide such a list. And that sets expectations a certain way. But why shouldn't a more subdued style be appropriate? Do we know much about Brahms intentions and expectations? Is there anything in the music which naturally leads away from small scale dynamics variation and limited emotional content? Those aren't meant to be rhetorical questions, I really don't know. But I do know that in some moods I enjoy Harnoncourt's 1 very much.
This anecdote may not be of as much use to you as I would hope, but for what it is worth Brahms responded to one of his symphonies being performed contrary to a way that he liked to conduct it by introducing himself to the conductor and saying that he never would have envisioned his work being performed that way but liked it.
Quote from: Geo Dude on April 22, 2013, 10:23:44 AM
This anecdote may not be of as much use to you as I would hope, but for what it is worth Brahms responded to one of his symphonies being performed contrary to a way that he liked to conduct it by introducing himself to the conductor and saying that he never would have envisioned his work being performed that way but liked it.
All these remind me the famous and funny incident in Parma with Franco Corelli singing Radames. Do you know about it?
Quote from: Parsifal on April 22, 2013, 07:44:16 AM
I don't think there is anything new or controversial in the idea that Brahms symphonies can be performed in a lyrical manner. Barbirolli's old cycle with the Vienna Philharmonic did just that, and Fischer's new recording of the first is another example of that approach. Bernstein slowed them way down in his VPO cycle, but I don't think it worked for him.
Thanks for taking the trouble to post this message which I found interesting and helpful. I was unaware of the Barbirolli before but I've had the chance to hear the C minor symphony today and I can see where you're coming from. Same with the Fischer. It looks like there's a tradition of Brahms performance which I was unaware of, and which I find quite interesting. I like the Barbirolli/VPO almost as much as I like the Harnoncourt.
So the now question is, how far does this noble, restrained approach go? Was Barbirolli the innovator? The earliest Brahms performances I know, like Mengelberg and Weingartner and Furtwangler and Max Fiedler, seem to take a very different approach to the music.
There's also the question of how Giulini's later recordings fit into this, the VPO ones.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 23, 2013, 07:35:10 AM
Thanks for taking the trouble to post this message which I found interesting and helpful. I was unaware of the Barbirolli before but I've had the chance to hear the C minor symphony today and I can see where you're coming from. Same with the Fischer. It looks like there's a tradition of Brahms performance which I was unaware of, and which I find quite interesting. I like the Barbirolli/VPO almost as much as I like the Harnoncourt.
So the now question is, how far does this noble, restrained approach go? Was Barbirolli the innovator? The earliest Brahms performances I know, like Mengelberg and Weingartner and Furtwangler and Max Fiedler, seem to take a very different approach to the music.
There's also the question of how Giulini's later recordings fit into this.
According to the notes to the Mackerras/Scottish recordings, Brahms himself preferred a small scale orchestra with a chamber music feel, rather than the heroic approach. For me, it seems self-evident that Brahms would prefer the more dolce treatment, since every voice sings in his orchestration.
Quote from: Parsifal on April 23, 2013, 08:50:23 AM
According to the notes to the Mackerras/Scottish recordings, Brahms himself preferred a small scale orchestra with a chamber music feel, rather than the heroic approach. For me, it seems self-evident that Brahms would prefer the more dolce treatment, since every voice sings in his orchestration.
Ditto, +1, and amen.
Quote from: Obradovic on April 22, 2013, 11:35:55 AM
All these remind me the famous and funny incident in Parma with Franco Corelli singing Radames. Do you know about it?
I'm not familiar with that incident; feel free to enlighten me (us?) about it. :)
Quote from: Parsifal on April 23, 2013, 08:50:23 AM
According to the notes to the Mackerras/Scottish recordings, Brahms himself preferred a small scale orchestra with a chamber music feel, rather than the heroic approach. For me, it seems self-evident that Brahms would prefer the more dolce treatment, since every voice sings in his orchestration.
The Brahms biography I've read corroborates Mackerras's notes; there was a story in there about a larger orchestra performing one of his symphonies with Brahms serving as guest conductor. When they started bringing out all of the stringed instruments he told them to send some back because they had more on hand than he wanted.
On a semi-related note, this reminds me of an anecdote of my own: I saw a guest conductor with the San Antonio symphony that gave us an extended pre-concert lecture about his history, including his history with Brahms. He commented that as a student he had always found the Brahms performances he heard quite turgid and thought Brahms was simply boring and overrated until they started studying the scores in his composition class at which point he decided that overly romanticized performances were the problem, not Brahms. He then stated that his philosophy on conducting Brahms is to try to bring out the classical elements because 'the romantic side takes care of itself.' Unfortunately, I've been unable to remember his name (or find the program) because I would really like to find out if he's done any recordings of Brahms.
Quote from: Geo Dude on April 23, 2013, 11:05:22 AM
I'm not familiar with that incident; feel free to enlighten me (us?) about it. :)
Well, Teatro Reggio di Parma used to have the most wicked and irrascible attending public. They would never spare a vociferous and protracted booing to anyone who would fail, as they believed, to serve the composer's wishes. Deviation from the written score or even the traditional embellishment was out of the question!
Once, Franco Corelli was to appear in Aida and decided to sing his part as it was. Exactly. After he had uttered the last note of 'Celeste Aida' fierce booing ensued as usual. And he asked the crowd:
-'What's the matter with you??"
-Booooooooo
-'Where was I wrong??'
-Boooooooo
-'It was as it should be!'
-Boooooooo
-'It was as Verdi wrote it!'
-(A voice from the booing crowd): 'Verdi ha sbagliato!!' (Verdi was wrong!!) ;)
Should all Brahms symphonies be approached the same way? Did then Brahms compose four symphonies or one symphony four times? Besides, what to me sounds lyrical to other ears sounds dull. What's for sure is that dense handling of the orchestration pays disservice to the works. In Brahms' orchestration less is more. His palette is not very broad but the georgeous 'brown' colours of his orchestra cry for special attention and care. Slackening the pulse and lowering the temperature is IMO a rather cheap and uneffective way bring off the lyric aspect of the music that should be avoided. Even Celibidache paid special attention to these works putting aside his usual slow tempos. And don't get me wrong, Brahms never heard his symphonies played the same way we hear them today.
PS 1: I summoned a seance to call Brahms' spirit for advice but Abraham Lincoln came instead. When asked he replied: 'You can downplay the virtues of a symphony all the time, you can downplay the virtues of all symphonies some times, but you can never downplay the virtues of all symphonies all the time ;D
PS 2: Harnoncourt, after all, is prone to adopting similar approaches: Listen to his Moldau with the VPO and if this is music for a river... then I don't know what a music for a (swimming) pool should be
I've started to enjoy some of Dohdanyi/Philharmonia Brahms, especially the C minor. How does it compare with the Cleveland recordings? Do I need to get them too?
This will sound way off base, but my preferred Brahms symphony cycle is actually a one piano four-hand arrangement, as part of Naxos' Brahms Four Hand Piano Music series. The arrangements are performed by Silke-Thora Matthies and Christian Köhn, and the symphonies are found on volumes 6, 7 and 8. (And as a bonus, volume 15 contains the two-piano four-hand arrangement of Symphonies 3 & 4.) I'm pretty sure that Brahms did not make all of the arrangements himself.
I'm not sure why I prefer listening to the one piano, four hand arrangements over the originals. I also prefer the one piano, four hand versions of Brahms' Hungarian Dances and Dvorak's Slavonic Dances. But in these cases, IIRC the orchestral versions are the arrangements and the four-hand versions are the originals. Weird, I know.
Quote from: eumyang on April 29, 2013, 06:39:43 PM
This will sound way off base, but my preferred Brahms symphony cycle is actually a one piano four-hand arrangement, as part of Naxos' Brahms Four Hand Piano Music series. The arrangements are performed by Silke-Thora Matthies and Christian Köhn, and the symphonies are found on volumes 6, 7 and 8. (And as a bonus, volume 15 contains the two-piano four-hand arrangement of Symphonies 3 & 4.) I'm pretty sure that Brahms did not make all of the arrangements himself.
I'm not sure why I prefer listening to the one piano, four hand arrangements over the originals. I also prefer the one piano, four hand versions of Brahms' Hungarian Dances and Dvorak's Slavonic Dances. But in these cases, IIRC the orchestral versions are the arrangements and the four-hand versions are the originals. Weird, I know.
Good to know about these. It's actually a very HIP way to hear the symphonies, regardless of the piano used, isn't it? One the side of reception history rather than public (orchestral) performance. The HIP antecedent to record-collecting. I guess the arrangements would have to be old enough to have been disseminated with Brahms' or his immediate estate's approval.
Also, maybe related, I've mentioned recently how much I like Brahms' own four-hands "London Version" of the REQUIEM; I've only heard one recording (by Accentus et al), but that makes me wonder if the I'd really like the symphonies this way.
Can you tell at a glance who did the symphony arrangements, and/or how old they are?
Quote from: eumyang on April 29, 2013, 06:39:43 PM
This will sound way off base, but my preferred Brahms symphony cycle is actually a one piano four-hand arrangement, as part of Naxos' Brahms Four Hand Piano Music series. The arrangements are performed by Silke-Thora Matthies and Christian Köhn, and the symphonies are found on volumes 6, 7 and 8. (And as a bonus, volume 15 contains the two-piano four-hand arrangement of Symphonies 3 & 4.) I'm pretty sure that Brahms did not make all of the arrangements himself.
I'm not sure why I prefer listening to the one piano, four hand arrangements over the originals. I also prefer the one piano, four hand versions of Brahms' Hungarian Dances and Dvorak's Slavonic Dances. But in these cases, IIRC the orchestral versions are the arrangements and the four-hand versions are the originals. Weird, I know.
I can relate to this. I have a piano transcription of Beethoven 9th symphony and i listen to that more often than to the original. I do have the Naxos version for piano of the Brahms Requiem and that makes the music sound dull.
Mike
I just had my first listen to Haitink's Brahms 2 with the Conc'bouw, from the 70s cycle. A used LP that I paid all of $1 for.
Damn, this is good, in every way (playing, interpretation, sound). Is the rest of Haitink's cycle as excellent as this?
Best $1 purchase ever!
Quote from: Velimir on June 10, 2013, 10:29:38 AM
I just had my first listen to Haitink's Brahms 2 with the Conc'bouw, from the 70s cycle. A used LP that I paid all of $1 for.
Damn, this is good, in every way (playing, interpretation, sound). Is the rest of Haitink's cycle as excellent as this?
Best $1 purchase ever!
Yes, definitely. :) It's on my short list.
Q
Quote from: Velimir on June 10, 2013, 10:29:38 AM
I just had my first listen to Haitink's Brahms 2 with the Conc'bouw, from the 70s cycle. A used LP that I paid all of $1 for.
Damn, this is good, in every way (playing, interpretation, sound). Is the rest of Haitink's cycle as excellent as this?
All of Haitink's old RCO recordings for Philips are about as good as pre-HIP big band orchestral music gets -- Beethoven, Mahler, Debussy, Brahms, you name it! When I started buying classical LPs more than 40 years ago, once I discovered Haitink/RCO/Philips I pretty much stopped wasting my money on Karajan. ;)
This thread has been dead for a while. Thought I'd revive it to ask about the Chailly (Nov. 2013) Brahms set that has come out. I have several excellent cycles, but most are a bit long in the tooth. I'm wondering if this performance is as engaging as Chailly's Beethoven set.
Quote from: Baklavaboy on November 16, 2013, 07:47:40 PM
This thread has been dead for a while. Thought I'd revive it to ask about the Chailly (Nov. 2013) Brahms set that has come out. I have several excellent cycles, but most are a bit long in the tooth. I'm wondering if this performance is as engaging as Chailly's Beethoven set.
I am, as I post, listening to the Fourth. So far, the performances are very good, and the sonics excellent. Beyond that (and the fact that CD 3 is filled up with some nice bonuses), I have the feeling that as excellent as it is, it's not quite so special as his Beethoven. But this is only a first listen, so opinion is very much subject to revision.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 17, 2013, 06:08:37 AM
I am, as I post, listening to the Fourth. So far, the performances are very good, and the sonics excellent. Beyond that (and the fact that CD 3 is filled up with some nice bonuses), I have the feeling that as excellent as it is, it's not quite so special as his Beethoven. But this is only a first listen, so opinion is very much subject to revision.
Thanks for the quick response, Jeffrey. I appreciate it. I will try to be patient and wait til I hear a bit more.
Quote from: Baklavaboy on November 16, 2013, 07:47:40 PMI'm wondering if this performance is as engaging as Chailly's Beethoven set.
After listening to the First and Second, I would have to say no. Even if the Third and Fourth are the best ever, the set will certainly not display the consistency of Chailly's LvB.
Has anyone mentioned the Wolfgang Sawallisch/Vienna Symphony (not Philharmonic) set from, I believe, the 1960s or early '70s? Lovely playing, perfectly judged tempos, and a flexible approach that never gets out of hand. This set, and the Reiner recording of the Double Concerto (with Nathan Milstein and Gregor Piatigorsky), I consider ideal Brahms. :D
I seem to recall hearing one of the Mackerras recordings over the radio, and liking it very much.
So you can guess that I don't like my Brahms too heavy. :) I could barely tolerate the one Karajan recording I've heard. On the other hand, I'm also fond of the Celibidache set; its more transparent sound makes it lovely.
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes..." :) --Walt Whitman
BTW, one constant source of irritation is how many conductors take the Andante moderato from #4 as if it were "Adagio lamentoso"! >:(
Quote from: sanantonio on November 22, 2013, 09:49:34 AM
If you have not already done so, track down the John Gardiner or Andrew Manze recordings of the Brahms symphonies. Judging by the comment above you would find them interesting.
I probably would. Thanks, SA!
Listened to Nos. 1 and 3 earlier today, and was extremely impressed with these performances. A nice blend of HIP practices and modern instruments. Chailly gives us Brahms with no congestion musically, both symphonies were very forward driven, right up to the final chords. This makes for an exciting, intense Brahms. The 3rd does a grand job of showcasing Brahms wonderful orchestrations, mainly in part to the Gewandausorchestrer. Not sure yet if I need to own this, still need to hear Nos. 2 and 4, but so far it has presented good performances that I really want to revisit.
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Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 25, 2015, 03:38:44 PM
Listened to Nos. 1 and 3 earlier today, and was extremely impressed with these performances. A nice blend of HIP practices and modern instruments. Chailly gives us Brahms with no congestion musically, both symphonies were very forward driven, right up to the final chords. This makes for an exciting, intense Brahms. The 3rd does a grand job of showcasing Brahms wonderful orchestrations, mainly in part to the Gewandausorchestrer. Not sure yet if I need to own this, still need to hear Nos. 2 and 4, but so far it has presented good performances that I really want to revisit.
Finished the Chailly set (minus the non-symphonies works) and my final thoughts after listening to 2 and 4 remain as they did during the first round of listening. However, I did just finish Thielemann/Dresden set (music only, not the included DVD) and I'm surprised to say that I prefer this one over the Chailly. Stylistically these are polar opposites, offering contrasting views on performance preferences. Where Chailly is lean and light but still with plenty of dramatics, Thielemann is more weighty and dark, even the recorded tone of the Dresden is heavier on the lower strings. In most cases the tempi of Thielemann are slower, although the 2nd's finale is like a rocket, but it is never lethargic and still full of energy.
I think what I really enjoy from the Thielemann/Dresden performances is how there is such a strong focus on the ebb and flow of Brahms brilliant writing, a more personal emphasis from Thielemann in this area really ushers out the lyrical aspect of these works. There are certainly more interpretive choices on display. I own Thielemann's first Brahms 1st disc with Munich and always loved his handling of the finale's famous string chorale, it's soft, delicate and airy, he again instills this in his Dresden performance. Another highlight is the 3rd Symphony, the entire piece, a beautifully crafted rendition.
[asin]B00M14IFRI[/asin]
I have enjoyed reading this thread. The Brahms symphonies took me a long time to appreciate; I initially found them dull, boring and "heavy" in terms of orchestration/orchestral colour. I persisted with my listening for quite a while with no success. Then I discovered the Mackerras set...
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/976/MI0000976309.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
....and that changed everything for me. It was as if the curtain in the dark room was opened and the light flooded in. Smaller orchestral forces brought greater transparency and with that, for me, came a greater appreciation for the music.
Another set that I now greatly value is the Harnoncourt...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51g9s3g5NjL.jpg)
....whose interpretations I think are wonderful.
Two GREAT sets, aligreto.
If you like that "smaller forces" tone, check out Manze and Gardiner's cycles. Both are very good.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 11, 2015, 02:14:45 PM
Two GREAT sets, aligreto.
If you like that "smaller forces" tone, check out Manze and Gardiner's cycles. Both are very good.
Thank you for that; I have the excellent Gardiner cycle but not the Manze and I will certainly investigate that one.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 06, 2015, 04:11:26 PM
Finished the Chailly set (minus the non-symphonies works) and my final thoughts after listening to 2 and 4 remain as they did during the first round of listening. However, I did just finish Thielemann/Dresden set (music only, not the included DVD) and I'm surprised to say that I prefer this one over the Chailly. Stylistically these are polar opposites, offering contrasting views on performance preferences. Where Chailly is lean and light but still with plenty of dramatics, Thielemann is more weighty and dark, even the recorded tone of the Dresden is heavier on the lower strings. In most cases the tempi of Thielemann are slower, although the 2nd's finale is like a rocket, but it is never lethargic and still full of energy.
I think what I really enjoy from the Thielemann/Dresden performances is how there is such a strong focus on the ebb and flow of Brahms brilliant writing, a more personal emphasis from Thielemann in this area really ushers out the lyrical aspect of these works. There are certainly more interpretive choices on display. I own Thielemann's first Brahms 1st disc with Munich and always loved his handling of the finale's famous string chorale, it's soft, delicate and airy, he again instills this in his Dresden performance. Another highlight is the 3rd Symphony, the entire piece, a beautifully crafted rendition.
[asin]B00M14IFRI[/asin]
Thanks for recommending the Thielemann! I've now heard the 1st and 2nd. The account of the 1st is among the most moving and powerful I've heard - listen to those wonderful dark & heavy strings! Your description of Thielemann's focus with the 'ebb and flow' of Brahms' writing is right on. The 2nd is played epic, a serious reading, deeply moving and it'll take a couple more listens to review it properly. Aces!
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 06, 2015, 04:11:26 PM
However, I did just finish Thielemann/Dresden set (music only, not the included DVD) and I'm surprised to say that I prefer this one over the Chailly. Stylistically these are polar opposites, offering contrasting views on performance preferences. Where Chailly is lean and light but still with plenty of dramatics, Thielemann is more weighty and dark, even the recorded tone of the Dresden is heavier on the lower strings. In most cases the tempi of Thielemann are slower, although the 2nd's finale is like a rocket, but it is never lethargic and still full of energy.
I also like Thielemann's Brahms cycle. I think it is one of the best set of recordings he's done.
My favourite cycle is still the Böhm Vienna DGG. Böhm secures powerful and sonorous yet lean and forward-moving performances from the WP.
Giulini WP, Walter Columbia Symph, Haitink Amsterdam, Kertesz WP, Karajan BP('64), Mackerras and Ansermet are also very good ones, securing different aspects of the wide brahmsian spectrum of emotions and musical syntax.
Not too enthusiastic about "favourite" oldies such as Boult, Barbirolli, Jochum BP or Klemperer. Tomy ears they have aged somewhat.
Podium:
1- Böhm and the BRSO (Orfeo) or BPO (DGG). Much loved also : Giulini and the LAPO, Munch BSO, Haitink Concertgebouw.
2 - Abbado and the BP (DGG 1969, one of his earliest recordings - NOT the more rigid 2000-something later recording), Giulini LAPO. This is a difficult symphony to get right.
3- Walter and the Columbia Symphony (CBS-Sony). By a long mile. Wand and the NDR (Hamburg).
4- Haitink Concertgebouw, Böhm WP, both from around 1971. Fischer-Dieskau and the Czech Philharmonic (Supraphon).
Recently listened to Thielemann's Brahms 2, I think I will have to get used to it more as there is definitely something in here I want to get to know better. It is one of the best recordings Thielemann has made in my opinion.
Quote from: jessop on April 07, 2018, 06:50:09 PM
I have been listening to a lot of Brahms 2s recently, Thielemann was the latest one. I jotted down a few thoughts on each one I listened to for comparison.
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/790/MI0003790725.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
As Christian Thielemann once said, 'democracy has no role in the context of orchestral music,' so it is useful to keep this dictatorial style of music making in mind when understanding his interpretative style; Thielemann is the boss and his word is final. With a reputation of fiercely conservative politics and poor diplomatic skills throughout his career as a conductor, he had found his dream job as artistic authoritarian over Staatskapelle Dresden in the more politically conservative state of Saxony in 2012. So, a conservative man conducting some fittingly conservative repertoire, the second symphony of Johannes Brahms, should have some anachronistic flair so as to sound at least delightfully quaint. Considering my adoration of Furtwängler's performances of Brahms 2, particularly his 1952 concert with the Berliners in Munich amongst many others by him and other conductors of that era, I know how thrilling these old hat interpretations of the Austro-German warhorses can be.
And Thielemann certainly brings big sweeping old hat orchestral rubato to the music, appropriately slowing down in the right places and jerking the music back up to tempo where he deems the time is right. This approach to tempo is somewhat predictable even as a throwback to the great conductors of the past, yet its musical justification is not apparent. There is a disconnect between rubato and dynamics, a disconnect between the final tempo of a ritardando and the tempo of the following phrase and sometimes understated articulation particularly in the first and third movements that leaves this Brahms 2 undercooked and served cold. A limited dynamic range in general gives little variety to how each phrase is shaped and as a result the music has a tendency to feel restraint or constricted.
Thielemann certainly has an artistic vision for the piece, one which despite these unfortunate losses certainly brings out a different aspect: one of consistency and regularity. Instead of bringing out the pronounced articulations, dynamic and expression markings expressed in the score , Thielemann opts for an overall abstract austerity that only hints at the possible evocations mood possible in the piece without actually arriving there. The syncopations present in the development section of the opening movement plod along with a stubborn regularity and squareness, successfully shifting our perception of a metric centre but only to bring out yet another tepid squareness instead of vitality and rhythmic tension in need of musical resolution. In the exposition and recapitulation, Thielemann goes so far as to hush down the ben marcato dissonant syncopations against an espressivo counterpoint between low strings, bassoons and violins. He emphasises a certain regularity and squareness in the music once again, rather than the rhythmic vitality that can make this music really come alive.
The orchestra certainly sounds great; every musician follows him obediently and submits to his authority with diligence as he diligently directs them. The orchestral tuttis are a great mass of sound and very effective for Brahms.
Thielemann takes the exposition repeat in the first movement.
This is fantastic!
Smaller ensemble, small bore trombones, 19th century horns, little to no vibrato...perhaps not everyone's cup of Brahms, but these performances are thrilling, never dull, and brilliant in their clarity and execution of these gorgeous scores. Sweepingly romantic it is, but not in the broad manner of Bernstein or Thielemann. It's more in the family of Gardiner's HIP cycle with ORR, which I believe will be replaced with SCO/Ticciati as my new top choice for 'smaller-sized' Brahms cycle.
I'm very interested in reading some of your thoughts, and I'll add more of my own later...I'm using my phone and it's taking me forever just to type this post :'( ;D
[asin]B079JGMVZH[/asin]
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2018, 09:25:48 PM
This is fantastic!
Smaller ensemble, small bore trombones, 19th century horns, little to no vibrato...perhaps not everyone's cup of Brahms, but these performances are thrilling, never dull, and brilliant in their clarity and execution of these gorgeous scores. Sweepingly romantic it is, but not in the broad manner of Bernstein or Thielemann. It's more in the family of Gardiner's HIP cycle with ORR, which I believe will be replaced with SCO/Ticciati as my new top choice for 'smaller-sized' Brahms cycle.
I'm very interested in reading some of your thoughts, and I'll add more of my own later...I'm using my phone and it's taking me forever just to type this post :'( ;D
[asin]B079JGMVZH[/asin]
Thanks for alerting us to this new recording of the Brahms symphonies. I sampled some of it and enjoyed the performances very much.
;)
Haven't heard Ticciati yet, but I was very taken with the Dausgaard Symphony No. 1 with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51AMyU6xmbL.jpg)
I haven't heard his No. 2 yet, which has gotten mixed reviews (well, some didn't like this No. 1, either).
Love the Muti set with Philadelphia Ochestra. His 4th is best that I have heard:)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2018, 09:25:48 PM
This is fantastic!
Smaller ensemble, small bore trombones, 19th century horns, little to no vibrato...perhaps not everyone's cup of Brahms, but these performances are thrilling, never dull, and brilliant in their clarity and execution of these gorgeous scores. Sweepingly romantic it is, but not in the broad manner of Bernstein or Thielemann. It's more in the family of Gardiner's HIP cycle with ORR, which I believe will be replaced with SCO/Ticciati as my new top choice for 'smaller-sized' Brahms cycle.
I'm very interested in reading some of your thoughts, and I'll add more of my own later...I'm using my phone and it's taking me forever just to type this post :'( ;D
[asin]B079JGMVZH[/asin]
Interesting. I think Gardiner does some things fantastically well. His Brahms certainly has a bite to it and he doesn't gloss over the orchestration like he does with Schumann, even if the orchestration itself isn't anything particularly noteworthy. He brings a freshness to the score with his attention to timbre,
some articulation and definitely bring life to the music at the intersection of rhythm/metre and phrasing. The only thing I don't like about his interpretations in general is where he is very conservative and limited in his expressive rubato and tempo changes. That, and the strange but beautiful sound of pretty much 0% vibrato on every note...it doesn't seem to work equally well on every note that Brahms writes I think and limits the expressive possibilities that can make Brahms sound so good w.
However, I am curious to hear this other version you recommend. Do you find it very similar to Gardiner? Have you heard Berglund's recording with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe?
For me, Gardiner got off to a very bad start to his cycle with No 1 - he pulls the music about horribly. This put me off collecting the rest of the cycle though I did eventually buy No 4 which is a lot better performance.
Ticciati is following in the footsteps of Sir Charles Mackerras who recorded a very fine Brahms cycle with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra. Mackerras uses 'Vienna' horns in F, rotary-valve trumpets and narrow-bore trombones; he has a string section of 10,8,6,6, and 4, typical of an orchestra of Brahms' time.
I have Dausgaard and the Swedish Chamber Orchestra in No 1 but it is a long time since I listened to and need to refresh my memory.
Mackerras remains my favourite for these chamber/HIP preformances though I may have to give Ticciati a try.
Quote from: Biffo on April 08, 2018, 02:42:15 AM
For me, Gardiner got off to a very bad start to his cycle with No 1 - he pulls the music about horribly. This put me off collecting the rest of the cycle though I did eventually buy No 4 which is a lot better performance.
Ticciati is following in the footsteps of Sir Charles Mackerras who recorded a very fine Brahms cycle with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra. Mackerras uses 'Vienna' horns in F, rotary-valve trumpets and narrow-bore trombones; he has a string section of 10,8,6,6, and 4, typical of an orchestra of Brahms' time.
I have Dausgaard and the Swedish Chamber Orchestra in No 1 but it is a long time since I listened to and need to refresh my memory.
Mackerras remains my favourite for these chamber/HIP preformances though I may have to give Ticciati a try.
What do you mean by 'pulls the music about horribly?' Is there something in his phrasing that you feel disjoints the composition? Does his use of tempo or rubato not find any connection to dynamic and articulation to create a good sense of musicality?
I find it interesting that you mention that size orchestra is typical of Brahms' time as I was always under the impression that the size of orchestras were very much dependent on the size of the venue that music was being performed in or what musicians were available. Like, a very big hall might have 18 first violins and 4 flutes to compensate for the larger string section whereas a smaller hall might even have 10 first violins and 2 flutes like in the Mackerras version. Also, I think it was even customary to change the orchestration itself depending on what is available or even what a conductor would wish to make. I am unaware of any strict standard for the 19th century orchestra, but if there was I would be extremely grateful for you to enlighten me a little more.
Quote from: jessop on April 08, 2018, 03:04:19 AM
What do you mean by 'pulls the music about horribly?' Is there something in his phrasing that you feel disjoints the composition? Does his use of tempo or rubato not find any connection to dynamic and articulation to create a good sense of musicality?
I find it interesting that you mention that size orchestra is typical of Brahms' time as I was always under the impression that the size of orchestras were very much dependent on the size of the venue that music was being performed in or what musicians were available. Like, a very big hall might have 18 first violins and 4 flutes to compensate for the larger string section whereas a smaller hall might even have 10 first violins and 2 flutes like in the Mackerras version. Also, I think it was even customary to change the orchestration itself depending on what is available or even what a conductor would wish to make. I am unaware of any strict standard for the 19th century orchestra, but if there was I would be extremely grateful for you to enlighten me a little more.
It is difficult for me to describe the unpleasant sensation JEG' Brahms 1 made on me - probably it is, as you say, his phrasing that disjoints the work.
The notes for the Mackerras recordings states that the strings are in 'approximately the numbers of German town orchestra of Brahms' time'.They also say that 'European orchestras came in a wide variety of sizes but there was a general tendency for them to expand during Brahms' life. For instance, the Leipzig Gewandhaus had 44 players in 1839...72 in 1881...and 98 in 1890....The Vienna Philharmonic had 78 players in 1864, 100 in 1885 and 114 in 1910'
The Meiningen Court Orchestra (Brahms' favourite) had 49 players and when they performed the 4th symphony in 1886 Brahms declined the offer to augment the string section.
Quote from: Biffo on April 08, 2018, 03:38:06 AM
It is difficult for me to describe the unpleasant sensation JEG' Brahms 1 made on me - probably it is, as you say, his phrasing that disjoints the work.
The notes for the Mackerras recordings states that the strings are in 'approximately the numbers of German town orchestra of Brahms' time'.They also say that 'European orchestras came in a wide variety of sizes but there was a general tendency for them to expand during Brahms' life. For instance, the Leipzig Gewandhaus had 44 players in 1839...72 in 1881...and 98 in 1890....The Vienna Philharmonic had 78 players in 1864, 100 in 1885 and 114 in 1910'
The Meiningen Court Orchestra (Brahms' favourite) had 49 players and when they performed the 4th symphony in 1886 Brahms declined the offer to augment the string section.
Very cool and interesting! I guess we can conclude that Brahms himself was a fan of smaller bands? :)
Quote from: Daverz on April 08, 2018, 12:22:30 AM
Haven't heard Ticciati yet, but I was very taken with the Dausgaard Symphony No. 1 with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51AMyU6xmbL.jpg)
I haven't heard his No. 2 yet, which has gotten mixed reviews (well, some didn't like this No. 1, either).
I am interested in hearing Dausgaard's Brahms. I listened to his Mahler 10th this morning and it was nice, although I am not a fan of the completions and stopped listening shortly into II. The Adagio was very enjoyable for me, though.
One thing I thought I heard in the Ticciati Brahms 3rd, which I listened to was a small, but noticeable, amount of portamento by the strings. Overall I was impressed with the sound of the orchestra and his interpretation. I have been a fan of both the Gardiner and Andrew Manze Brahms symphony cycles; this one by Ticciati will join those as my preferred recordings.
Quote from: jessop on April 08, 2018, 04:57:35 AM
Very cool and interesting! I guess we can conclude that Brahms himself was a fan of smaller bands? :)
I don't think we can conclude in that direction. It has more to do with the adequation between size of the concert venue and the orchestral forces to ideally match the acoustics.
I may be old hat when it comes to vibrato, but Brahms
senza vibrato iis smply heretic to me. It just does not fit the length and shape of the musical phrases. Pierre Monteux knew Brahms (played for him in his string quartet) and he was his favourite composer. He never played his symphonies in that way.
Quote from: André on April 08, 2018, 05:50:46 AM
I don't think we can conclude in that direction. It has more to do with the adequation between size of the concert venue and the orchestral forces to ideally match the acoustics.
I may be old hat when it comes to vibrato, but Brahms senza vibrato iis smply heretic to me. It just does not fit the length and shape of the musical phrases. Pierre Monteux knew Brahms (played for him in his string quartet) and he was his favourite composer. He never played his symphonies in that way.
That makes a lot of sense.
I think Brahms
senza vibrato would be heretic even in his time, when he would even go out of his way to notate articulations in his scores (double hairpin accents) where players should use heavy vibrato (rather than regular vibrato) as means to accent certain notes. It was simply customary to do this, as many written accounts describing orchestral string vibrato show that there were many different varieties of it for different purposes depending on what the composer and/or conductor wanted.
I tried to post this article as an attachment but the file size was too large, so I am sending it as a dropbox link for anyone curious enough to have a read. It goes into a lot of examples detailing the different varieties an purposes of orchestral vibrato in the 19th to early 20th century and makes for a very interesting read.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fdq9hz0ri9gty0v/Vibrato.pdf?dl=0
Quote from: André on April 08, 2018, 05:50:46 AM
I don't think we can conclude in that direction. It has more to do with the adequation between size of the concert venue and the orchestral forces to ideally match the acoustics.
I may be old hat when it comes to vibrato, but Brahms senza vibrato iis smply heretic to me. It just does not fit the length and shape of the musical phrases. Pierre Monteux knew Brahms (played for him in his string quartet) and he was his favourite composer. He never played his symphonies in that way.
Except from a historical point, I really am not interested in what Brahms preferred, or Pierre Monteux for that matter. Today, in 2018, some conductors and orchestras are playing Brahms in a manner which may have no relation to what Brahms preferred, but to my ears sounds wonderful.
That is what is important to me.
Sure. You can make your grandmother's goulash with no paprika. Maybe you should give it another name, then.
Quote from: jessop on April 08, 2018, 06:16:35 AM
I tried to post this article as an attachment but the file size was too large, so I am sending it as a dropbox link for anyone curious enough to have a read. It goes into a lot of examples detailing the different varieties an purposes of orchestral vibrato in the 19th to early 20th century and makes for a very interesting read.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fdq9hz0ri9gty0v/Vibrato.pdf?dl=0
Thanks a lot for sharing!
Quote from: André on June 28, 2015, 04:10:04 PM
My favourite cycle is still the Böhm Vienna DGG. Böhm secures powerful and sonorous yet lean and forward-moving performances from the WP.
Giulini WP, Walter Columbia Symph, Haitink Amsterdam, Kertesz WP, Karajan BP('64), Mackerras and Ansermet are also very good ones, securing different aspects of the wide brahmsian spectrum of emotions and musical syntax.
Not too enthusiastic about "favourite" oldies such as Boult, Barbirolli, Jochum BP or Klemperer. Tomy ears they have aged somewhat.
Podium:
1- Böhm and the BRSO (Orfeo) or BPO (DGG). Much loved also : Giulini and the LAPO, Munch BSO, Haitink Concertgebouw.
2 - Abbado and the BP (DGG 1969, one of his earliest recordings - NOT the more rigid 2000-something later recording), Giulini LAPO. This is a difficult symphony to get right.
3- Walter and the Columbia Symphony (CBS-Sony). By a long mile. Wand and the NDR (Hamburg).
4- Haitink Concertgebouw, Böhm WP, both from around 1971. Fischer-Dieskau and the Czech Philharmonic (Supraphon).
My personal build-a-cycle mono + stereo + alternative:
1 - Furtwängler 1951 + Jochum LPO + Thielemann
2 - Walter NYPO + Dohnányi Cleveland + Norrington LCP
3 - Walter VPO + Kempe BPO + Mackerras
4 - Kempe BPO + Jochum LPO + Dohnányi Philharmonia
As far as complete cycles go, Kempe/BPO mixes mono and stereo recordings but all four symphonies are indispensable regardless of provenance; Kertész is consistently in the top four or five in every symphony; likewise Jochum/LPO, definitely preferable to the Berlin recordings; I also prefer Walter with the NY Phil over Walter with the Columbia Phil (though the Columbia 3rd is preferable to the NY one, if not as good as the Vienna one, which is from 1936 and is my benchmark recording of the symphony (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxYeiocnIok)). Norrington's early recordings with the London Classical Players are my favourite in the chamber orchestra/HIP contingent, with much more individuality and expressive power than most of the sets that followed, granting an exception to Mackerras for his 3rd and 4th.
Other cycles worth acquiring: Kubelík/Sinfonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, especially if you're a SOBR stan like me; either of the Dohnányis (Cleveland is slightly better overall, but lacks the superb timpani player of the Philharmonia); Jurowski/LPO.
This thread makes for interesting reading. Although a small number compared to some, I've nine 14 Brahms symphony cycles. But I only listen to a few of them. I can't choose a favourite from them.
Quote from: NikF on April 13, 2018, 03:22:34 AM
This thread makes for interesting reading. Although a small number compared to some, I've nine 14 Brahms symphony cycles. But I only listen to a few of them. I can't choose a favourite from them.
Which are the few that you listen to?
Quote from: George on April 13, 2018, 03:26:30 AM
Which are the few that you listen to?
It varies. Probably
Abbado/
Berlin and
Eschenbach/
Houston Symphony. Then again, I'm fond of
Wand/
NDR and
Schmidt-Isserstedt/
Hamburg Radio Symphony.
For a cycle I'd probably go for Abbado or one of the Walters. As for build-your-own-cycle for me it seems to be the VPO with assorted conductors ::)
1. Fischer/Budapest, Krips/VPO
2. Monteux/VPO, Furtwangler/VPO ('45)
3. Walter/VPO, Krauss/VPO, Bohm/VPO ('53), Koussevitzky/Boston, Levine/VPO
4. Kleiber/VPO, Markevitch/Lamoureux, Furtwangler/VPO ('50), Fischer/Budapest
Quote from: André on April 08, 2018, 05:50:46 AM
I don't think we can conclude in that direction. It has more to do with the adequation between size of the concert venue and the orchestral forces to ideally match the acoustics.
I may be old hat when it comes to vibrato, but Brahms senza vibrato iis smply heretic to me. It just does not fit the length and shape of the musical phrases. Pierre Monteux knew Brahms (played for him in his string quartet) and he was his favourite composer. He never played his symphonies in that way.
Unfortunately this senza vibrato, lean strings approach is the norm rather than the exception today, even with modern ensembles. The other day there was a Schumann 2nd Symphony on the radio with Yannick Nézet-Séguin conducting the Philadelphia Orchestra. You get very little vibrato, phrases are rather choppy and you get that annoying swell that takes place of vibrato. For whatever reason this is how music from the mid to late 19th century is played nowadays. I think it is more common with younger conductors, for example you would never see Haitink conduct Schumann that way. I don't understand it either but to each its own I suppose.
Back to the original thread lately I have been warming towards Solti's CSO cycle. I think Sir Georg nails this cycle, expressive yet never driven with a directness totally appropriate in this music.