Hello all,
Longtime on and off lurker speaking. I've wondered whether any of you have experienced this and how you "deal" with it. I'm a German native speaker and I sometimes hate the texts that go with certain songs or arias. Sometimes I think the texts are just a little bit ludicrous, sometimes I find them so horrible that it really detracts from my enjoyment of the music. And sometimes I just can't listen to the music because of the texts. Cases in point: Schubert songs (just bad poetry sometimes in my obviously personal view), far worse is Wagner (of course) or certain Mahler songs - I don't really know whether I like the last movement of his fourth symphony because I can't stand the text, so much so that I stop listening. Anyone who has similar experiences? Maybe I should listen to performances of these compositions in languages I don't speak at all (if I find them, that is).
I don't remember any Schubert song lyrics as distractingly horrible. Some are a bit cheesy or sentimental, e.g. "Das Zügenglöcklein". "Das himmlische Leben" is rather funny, I think. The worst well known Mahler I find "Es sungen drei Engel..." in the 3rd symphony and the really worst I tend to skip is "Verlorne Müh" from Wunderhorn, because the music is not memorable either and trained singers trying that fake dialect (not sure if it was close to some dialect 200 years ago when this poetry was collected/edited but it sounds fake) is horrendous.
Wagner is a very special case. Often one cannot understand the text anyway. Sometimes it is quite poignant and poetic or even witty. (I think that Sachs' response to Walther "Wie fang ich nach der Regel an? - Ihr stellt sie selbst und folgt ihr dann" or even the "nationalist" final of Meistersinger (i.e. the elevation of German arts and artists above political conflict and disunity) are getting their points across quite well)
Then it is often so strange and far removed from normal language that it's literally beyond good and evil. "Wes Herd dies auch sei, hier muss ich rasten" is very good, but "Ein Quell etc." for "I am thirsty, get me a drink" is just bizarre. Or calling the torch "Zünde" in Tristan, II. Words, either made up or totally uncommon and giving a comical impression.
I find Wagner's texts just plain awful. I used to read them when listening to the operas, but I long ago stopped doing that. I find most texts for most music to be less satisfactory than the music, so I always listen for the tune. I will also write that as a native English speaker, I generally detest the English language when used in opera or art song, partly because I find English to sound comparatively ugly in such forms. Someone like Ned Rorem is the very rare exception here. English language pop and rock songs fare a bit better, but there the short, simple tune is definitely the thing.
Unfortunately, a large proportion of Schubert's texts are depressing. Even the ones that start off cheerful end up in weeping, sobbing, warm tears, cold tears, wanting to die etc. Johann Mayrhofer's texts are easily the worst. Mayrhofer and Schubert were friends but fell out. Mayrhofer outlived Schubert but committed suicide in 1836 - not surprising when you read his poetry. Schubert set more Mayrhofer than any other poet except Goethe.
Having said that Winterreise is my favourite of Schubert's lieder.
The texts of Bach's cantatas are pretty dreary - too much grief for sin etc. I usually read through the text then let the music take over rather than following the text word for word.
Mostly in the pop music world. This q. arose on Twitter, and this was my view of "Tom Sawyer" by Rush.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 07, 2022, 07:24:21 AM
Mostly in the pop music world. This q. arose on Twitter, and this was my view of "Tom Sawyer" by Rush.
Agreed - I listen to almost no present-day pop music because the lyrics ruin the tunes for me. Old jazz standards often reveal very old-fashioned views of romance and gender roles. And, of course, even "classic" rock has lyrics like yeah yeah yeah, nah nah nah, da da da, and the unforgettable sha la la la la la la la la la la di dah. ;D ;D
I don't pay much attention to the text, be it opera (a synopsis is more than enough for me, I have never ever listened libretto in hand -- but then again I speak French fluently and understand Italian fairly well) or Lieder (my German is very limited anyway) Prima la musica poi le parole is my guiding principle.
Quote from: Florestan on August 07, 2022, 08:10:39 AM
I don't pay much attention to the text, be it opera (a synopsis is more than enough for me, I have never ever listened libretto in hand -- but then again I speak French fluently and understand Italian fairly well) or Lieder (my German is very limited anyway) Prima la musica poi le parole is my guiding principle.
Yeah, I also try not to pay attention. The problem is that if the language is pronounced clearly enough, it is hard to avoid comprehending what is being sung, especially if one knows beforehand that you hate the text :(
Quote from: Jo498 on August 07, 2022, 04:43:42 AM
I don't remember any Schubert song lyrics as distractingly horrible. Some are a bit cheesy or sentimental, e.g. "Das Zügenglöcklein". "Das himmlische Leben" is rather funny, I think. The worst well known Mahler I find "Es sungen drei Engel..." in the 3rd symphony and the really worst I tend to skip is "Verlorne Müh" from Wunderhorn, because the music is not memorable either and trained singers trying that fake dialect (not sure if it was close to some dialect 200 years ago when this poetry was collected/edited but it sounds fake) is horrendous.
Wagner is a very special case. Often one cannot understand the text anyway. Sometimes it is quite poignant and poetic or even witty. (I think that Sachs' response to Walther "Wie fang ich nach der Regel an? - Ihr stellt sie selbst und folgt ihr dann" or even the "nationalist" final of Meistersinger (i.e. the elevation of German arts and artists above political conflict and disunity) are getting their points across quite well)
Then it is often so strange and far removed from normal language that it's literally beyond good and evil. "Wes Herd dies auch sei, hier muss ich rasten" is very good, but "Ein Quell etc." for "I am thirsty, get me a drink" is just bizarre. Or calling the torch "Zünde" in Tristan, II. Words, either made up or totally uncommon and giving a comical impression.
I'm vegan, that's why I hate that Mahler song and don't find it funny, though it probably is (my impression is that it is rather ironical in fact, but I never listened to it till the end. If the words are uncommon as in Tristan, that would also rather strengthen my interest in the work, since I'm interested in how language changes over time.
Quote from: Todd on August 07, 2022, 05:17:17 AM
I find Wagner's texts just plain awful. I used to read them when listening to the operas, but I long ago stopped doing that. I find most texts for most music to be less satisfactory than the music, so I always listen for the tune. I will also write that as a native English speaker, I generally detest the English language when used in opera or art song, partly because I find English to sound comparatively ugly in such forms. Someone like Ned Rorem is the very rare exception here. English language pop and rock songs fare a bit better, but there the short, simple tune is definitely the thing.
Oh, I love English spoken or sung. The language itself sounds like music to me :-* . English choirs are the greatest for me. But I know that this is not a universal attitude.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 07, 2022, 07:24:21 AM
Mostly in the pop music world. This q. arose on Twitter, and this was my view of "Tom Sawyer" by Rush.
That's interesting because one might have thought that pop songs are closer to our modern outlook on life and hence potentially less dated. Though of course lyrics can be annoying in other ways, too.
Das himmlische Leben is ironical in as much the childish dream of heaven is more like "Schlaraffenland", i.e. above all plenty of food, including the butchering of animals. The only really heavenly stanza is the last one describing the heavenly music: Kein Musik ist ja nicht auf Erden, die unserer verglichen kann werden.
If I couldn't take texts or lyrics I don't agree with ideologically, I would have to severely restrict the literature I could read. Unless we are dealing with extremely explicit descriptions (of e.g. butchering), I don't think that this is a reasonable way to deal with literature or lyrics.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 07, 2022, 09:14:20 AM
If I couldn't take texts or lyrics I don't agree with ideologically, I would have to severely restrict the literature I could read. Unless we are dealing with extremely explicit descriptions (of e.g. butchering), I don't think that this is a reasonable way to deal with literature or lyrics.
Very much agree with this, and I'd add that how be perceive the quality or worth of a literary or musical work (or a combination of both) should not be dictated by how "up to date" it is of how it relates to our everyday life.
The obvious case is
Wagner, already mentioned above. Yes,
Wagner uses artificially archaic formulations and language that, in many casss, sound bizarre today, and much (but not all) of what he wrote as libretti, taking in isolation, is not really that great. But much of it,
with the music, becomes of the highest calibre and pertinently addresses many crucial issues of Western civilisation, at the same level as the greats from that preceded him.
As for songs, we really cannot expect all music to be set to texts by the likes of
Mallarmé,
Baudelaire,
Rilke, etc., can we?
Mahler's use of naïf/popular texts in the
Wunderhorn-Lieder and related works, for instance, or his own in the
Fahrenden Gesellen , perfectly suit the purpose set out, don't they?
One would really have to go to specific texts. I am not an expert (i.e. I don't have a degree in literature although my high school/prep school was comparably heavy in humanities) but have read my share of both literature/lyrics and commentary in several languages and I think with normal "charity" there is rather little lyrics/text in classical music I find so cringeworthy that I'd rather not understand the language.
And for the worst cases there is always ironically distant appreciation, such as in "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die" ;) or "Das ist kein Mann?!?!!" :D
(I also dimly remember the detailed "butchering descriptions" in Moby Dick and in "Butcher's Crossing" (with buffaloes) quite fascinating despite never having been hunting, not even fishing myself.)
Quote from: Jo498 on August 07, 2022, 09:14:20 AM
Das himmlische Leben is ironical in as much the childish dream of heaven is more like "Schlaraffenland", i.e. above all plenty of food, including the butchering of animals. The only really heavenly stanza is the last one describing the heavenly music: Kein Musik ist ja nicht auf Erden, die unserer verglichen kann werden.
If I couldn't take texts or lyrics I don't agree with ideologically, I would have to severely restrict the literature I could read. Unless we are dealing with extremely explicit descriptions (of e.g. butchering), I don't think that this is a reasonable way to deal with literature or lyrics.
Not saying I'm reasonable :) Thanks for the explanation.
Quote from: ritter on August 07, 2022, 09:49:00 AM
Very much agree with this, and I'd add that how be perceive the quality or worth of a literary or musical work (or a combination of both) should not be dictated by how "up to date" it is of how it relates to our everyday life.
The obvious case is Wagner, already mentioned above. Yes, Wagner uses artificially archaic formulations and language that, in many casss, sound bizarre today, and much (but not all) of what he wrote as libretti, taking in isolation, is not really that great. But much of it, with the music, becomes of the highest calibre and pertinently addresses many crucial issues of Western civilisation, at the same level as the greats from that preceded him.
As for songs, we really cannot expect all music to be set to texts by the likes of Mallarmé, Baudelaire, Rilke, etc., can we? Mahler's use of naïf/popular texts in the Wunderhorn-Lieder and related works, for instance, or his own in the Fahrenden Gesellen , perfectly suit the purpose set out, don't they?
Completely agree. There are just certain texts that for some reason trigger negative responses that detract from my enjoyment of the music. Not something I can intentionally suppress. I was talking about my gut response, not about artistic value.
Quote from: Verena on August 07, 2022, 12:57:38 PM
.... There are just certain texts that for some reason trigger negative responses that detract from my enjoyment of the music. Not something I can intentionally suppress. I was talking about my gut response, not about artistic value.
Quite understandable; it happens to all of us, I guess. Many an opera libretto makes me cringe, and even if I "praised"
Mahler in my previous post, the strongly dislike the text to
Das klagende Lied . "
Ach Spielmann, lieber Spielmann mein". Please! ::) ;D
And the text to a work I
really like the (music and the way the words are set to music),
Debussy's
La Damoiselle élue, I find downright revolting. ;)
Quote from: ritter on August 07, 2022, 02:16:55 PM
Quite understandable; it happens to all of us, I guess. Many an opera libretto makes me cringe, and even if I "praised" Mahler in my previous post, the strongly dislike the text to Das klagende Lied . "Ach Spielmann, lieber Spielmann mein". Please! ::) ;D
And the text to a work I really like the (music and the way the words are set to music), Debussy's La Damoiselle élue, I find downright revolting. ;)
Fortunately my French is poor enough to enable me to ignore the text in such a case. Now you got me interested in this work, which I'm not familiar with :)
Quote from: Verena on August 07, 2022, 04:26:07 AM
Hello all,
Longtime on and off lurker speaking. I've wondered whether any of you have experienced this and how you "deal" with it. I'm a German native speaker and I sometimes hate the texts that go with certain songs or arias. Sometimes I think the texts are just a little bit ludicrous, sometimes I find them so horrible that it really detracts from my enjoyment of the music. And sometimes I just can't listen to the music because of the texts. Cases in point: Schubert songs (just bad poetry sometimes in my obviously personal view), far worse is Wagner (of course) or certain Mahler songs - I don't really know whether I like the last movement of his fourth symphony because I can't stand the text, so much so that I stop listening. Anyone who has similar experiences? Maybe I should listen to performances of these compositions in languages I don't speak at all (if I find them, that is).
No I don't agree. For me the text is very important for appreciating the music, my experience in lieder and opera is less satisfying if I don't know what the text means.
For example, how on earth could anyone appreciate this song if they don't know what the words mean, they'd get completely the wrong idea and their experience of the whole would be reduced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_YokuLpgQ8&ab_channel=KatharineDurran-Topic
And imagine someone didn't know what
Veni creatur spiritus meant -- they would think that the first movement of Mahler 8 was the setting of a popular secular song or something.
In both cases, if you don't know the meaning of the words, you miss the irony, and the irony is of the essence in these pieces.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 08, 2022, 03:49:40 AM
No I don't agree. For me the text is very important for appreciating the music, my experience in lieder and opera is less satisfying if I don't know what the text means.
For example, how on earth could anyone appreciate this song if they don't know what the words mean, they'd get completely the wrong idea and their experience of the whole would be reduced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_YokuLpgQ8&ab_channel=KatharineDurran-Topic
And imagine someone didn't know what Veni creatur spiritus meant -- they would think that the first movement of Mahler 8 was the setting of a popular secular song or something.
In both cases, if you don't know the meaning of the words, you miss the irony, and the irony is of the essence in these pieces.
Thanks for the two examples. Couldn't agree more. I've been trying to get a grip on irony for years so these are particularly interesting for me. Haven't been familiar with either (Mahler 8 being the only symphony of his I've avoided completely so far).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_YokuLpgQ8&ab_channel=KatharineDurran-Topic
In both cases, if you don't know the meaning of the words, you miss the irony, and the irony is of the essence in these pieces.
I don't know Katharine Durran but I wonder as to where the irony is in Mahlers use of the Veni creator hymn. Can you elaborate a bit?
At the Mahler foundation I read about the Veni creator....:
"Mahler achieved remarkable synchronization of words and music here, he claimed that after arriving at his summer retreat in 1906, prepared to immerse himself in composing the work, he noticed an inconsistency in the text that he had with him, which caused him to believe that it was either incomplete or otherwise incorrect. He asked that the for him the sent to him immediately, when it arrived, he had already composed the music, and low and behold, it fit to the text perfectly, as if, in composing the music, he knew instinctively what the text should be. Constantine Floros believes the story apocryphal, he suggests that an examination of the relationship between the words and the music reveals that Mahler was not guided by the idea of absolute music as he claimed, but by the text to which key musical passages are often geared."
and
"Even the bells according to Floros, are used as a symbolical reference to transcendence. Part one opens in a resplendent mood full of spirit and enthusiasm. Without a single measure of introduction, the exposition begins at once on a strong low E flat, thus immediately sounding the tonic route, it is followed in the middle of the bar by an equally powerful E flat major chord on the organ that hails the entrance of the first theme in both choruses, to the words "Veni, veni Creator Spiritus" the choruses joyfully resound with a resilient theme, which we'll call veiny one, as a mighty evocation of the creative spirit sourced in Divine majesty, veiny one begins with Mahler's favorite interval, the fourth ear falling, played in a trochaic rhythm long short, followed after a single beat rest by a rising seventh."
and
"This monumental conclusion to an incredibly powerful and complex movement not only contains some of Mahler's most thrilling music, but shows the composer at the height of his creative powers. He demonstrates his ability to integrate diverse musical material in an extremely complex contrapuntal setting and to conjoin music and text in a symbolic interrelationship that is representative of his creative philosophy. It is hard to imagine what more needs to be said after such a strong and definitive conclusion. Yet there is still something to be achieved before true and enduring creativity can be accomplished."
Source: https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/listening-guide/listening-guide-movement-1-lied-1-hymnus-veni-creator-spiritus/
Anyway, my knowledge of english may be too weak to grasp what you try to explain. ...
Quote from: Verena on August 08, 2022, 04:37:42 AM
Thanks for the two examples. Couldn't agree more. I've been trying to get a grip on irony for years so these are particularly interesting for me. Haven't been familiar with either (Mahler 8 being the only symphony of his I've avoided completely so far).
In French there's an expression which I think is very close to irony, though I should warn you I'm not a native speaker. They say second degré. A second meaning -- a second point, aim -- which lies behind the surface. I suppose this idea of a sense which is behind the surface meaning, this spatial metaphor, is what leads people to talk about depth.
Quote from: pjme on August 08, 2022, 09:08:21 AM
I wonder as to where the irony is in Mahlers use of the Veni creator hymn. Can you elaborate a bit?
At the Mahler foundation I read about the Veni creator....:
Put it like this, setting Veni Creator Spiritus in a way which follows the conventions of religious hymn music is one thing -- to set it like Mahler did in the 8th symphony, a raucous march tune at times, is at the very least iconoclastic and possibly much more than that. All this to be taken in the context of the second half, which is a secular text (Faust) set in a rapt and spiritual sounding way.
If you didn't know what the texts were and what they signified, all this would pass you by. You'd just have the musical surface.
Here's Brahms's idea of a hymn setting to contrast with Mahler's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMQH4uzEwlM&ab_channel=St.AugustineAcademyPress
And Bruckner's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6fAT3iGRWc&ab_channel=morphthing1
Here's Veni Creator Spiritus by Arvo Part
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqLr1itXYvM&ab_channel=Rub%C3%A9nDJSuzukid
Contrast Mahler from this point
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5Id1OAPNsA&t=774s&ab_channel=rogerbridgland
But the real point I want to make is that you couldn't even begin to have the discussion if you weren't aware of the sense of the text.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 08, 2022, 10:11:12 AM
In French there's an expression which I think is very close to irony, though I should warn you I'm not a native speaker. They say second degré. A second meaning -- a second point, aim -- which lies behind the surface. I suppose this idea of a sense which is behind the surface meaning, this spatial metaphor, is what leads people to talk about depth.
Put it like this, setting Veni Creator Spiritus in a way which follows the conventions of religious hymn music is one thing -- to set it like Mahler did in the 8th symphony, a raucous march tune at times, is at the very least iconoclastic and possibly much more than that. All this to be taken in the context of the second half, which is a secular text (Faust) set in a rapt and spiritual sounding way.
If you didn't know what the texts were and what they signified, all this would pass you by. You'd just have the musical surface.
Yes, that is a really helpful way of capturing the essence of irony I think. Also in comparison with metaphor, where the metaphorical meaning is maybe not so much "behind" but rather an extension of the literal meaning.
I don't think Mahler 8 is "iconoclastic" at all. It's not "traditional" but neither was the Gloria of Beethoven's Missa solemnis (or the choral finale of his 9th) ~80 years earlier. Both Beethoven and Mahler use the full at their time "modern" choral+symphonic apparatus to convey spiritual exaltation. (That's not to deny that some Catholics might not appreciate the setting of a liturgic hymn in a symphony.)
This might qualify for an UO but I think overall Mahler is far more often "naive"/"straight" in expression than ironic/parodistic (e.g. I think there is nothing whatsoever "distancing" in either Urlicht or the long last movement of the 2nd symphony, it's all completely serious). And the parodistic or "distancing" passages are usually recognizable quite well and even they often have a core of melancholy. Like in some Schubert or Schumann when an ironic tone is used to deal with heartbreak etc or trying to cheer oneself up (in vain).
Sure, in a way whatever one finds in a work of art was "in there". But I believe that the all-pervasive ironic attitude of postmodernity can distort the perception because since the 1960s or so many people seem to be unable to take anything seriously, so the ironic mode is the only one left to them.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 09, 2022, 12:45:00 AM
I don't think Mahler 8 is "iconoclastic" at all. It's not "traditional" but neither was the Gloria of Beethoven's Missa solemnis (or the choral finale of his 9th) ~80 years earlier. Both Beethoven and Mahler use the full at their time "modern" choral+symphonic apparatus to convey spiritual exaltation. (That's not to deny that some Catholics might not appreciate the setting of a liturgic hymn in a symphony.)
This might qualify for an UO but I think overall Mahler is far more often "naive"/"straight" in expression than ironic/parodistic (e.g. I think there is nothing whatsoever "distancing" in either Urlicht or the long last movement of the 2nd symphony, it's all completely serious). And the parodistic or "distancing" passages are usually recognizable quite well and even they often have a core of melancholy. Like in some Schubert or Schumann when an ironic tone is used to deal with heartbreak etc or trying to cheer oneself up (in vain).
Sure, in a way whatever one finds in a work of art was "in there". But I believe that the all-pervasive ironic attitude of postmodernity can distort the perception because since the 1960s or so many people seem to be unable to take anything seriously, so the ironic mode is the only one left to them.
Nobody was suggesting that Mahler was writing parodies or that he wasn't being serious. There are lots of senses of irony in English, but at the very least it is about there being a surface meaning and an underlying meaning.
What is UO?
Missa Solmenis Gloria may have been iconoclastic too, I don't know, I haven't thought about it. The hymn in Beethoven 9 maybe -- though there we have a setting of Goethe (like Mahler in Part 2 of Symphony 8.) That relation between Beethoven 9 and Mahler 8 is something interesting to explore -- from the secular/sacred point of view.
But to repeat, the only point I really wanted to make is that this discussion isn't even open to someone who thinks that the text can me ignored.
Of course one isn't able to understand the composers intention fully if one doesn't know or understand the text. But the OP's question was - as I read it - whether the text may be a disturbing factor in the enjoyment of the music, and if at least some music is enjoyed the best when you don't know the text. For my own part, I often think that it is enough to know the content of the text in general terms in order to enjoy the music as such.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 09, 2022, 01:13:13 AM
the hymn in Beethoven 9 maybe -- though there we have a setting of Goethe
Ahem....
Schiller.
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 09, 2022, 06:04:55 AM
Of course one isn't able to understand the composers intention fully if one doesn't know or understand the text. But the OP's question was - as I read it - whether the text may be a disturbing factor in the enjoyment of the music, and if at least some music is enjoyed the best when you don't know the text. For my own part, I often think that it is enough to know the content of the text in general terms in order to enjoy the music as such.
This.
Actually, I had an uncanny experience with Grieg's Lieder. I understand not a iota of Norwegian yet in 8 cases out of 10 I was able to correctly guess the general mood or feeling by listening to them first and then reading the English translation of lyrics.
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 09, 2022, 06:04:55 AM
Of course one isn't able to understand the composers intention fully if one doesn't know or understand the text. But the OP's question was - as I read it - whether the text may be a disturbing factor in the enjoyment of the music, and if at least some music is enjoyed the best when you don't know the text. For my own part, I often think that it is enough to know the content of the text in general terms in order to enjoy the music as such.
For me, understanding the text (usually) enriches/ helps understanding (most) music and (often) leads to more ( literary)discoveries, new words, unforeseen connections, forgotten customs, prayers, silly/sentimental/ raucous/rude words, curses...
Quote from: Florestan on August 09, 2022, 06:07:45 AM
Ahem.... Schiller.
Ah -- the author of my favourite quote in the whole of literature.
Notwendigkeit ist da, der Zweifel flieht,
Nacht musst es sein wo Friedland's Sterne strahlen.
Quote from: pjme on August 09, 2022, 06:44:54 AM
For me, understanding the text (usually) enriches/ helps understanding (most) music and (often) leads to more ( literary)discoveries, new words, unforeseen connections, forgotten customs, prayers, silly/sentimental/ raucous/rude words, curses...
But reading of poetry may have a similar or better effect - without distracting music!
Quote from: Mandryka on August 09, 2022, 06:55:17 AM
Ah -- the author of my favourite quote in the whole of literature.
Notwendigkeit ist da, der Zweifel flieht,
Nacht musst es sein wo Friedland's Sterne strahlen.
Would you please elaborate a bit on this? I see it's from
Wallensteins Tod but a bit of context and why you like it so much would be most helpful --- as well as an English or French translation. Google Translate doesn't make much sense to me but I guess it's precisely because of the lack of context. I'm really interested. TIA.
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 09, 2022, 07:13:37 AM
But reading of poetry may have a similar or better effect - without distracting music!
+ 1.
I have discovered much more new words, unforeseen connections, forgotten customs, prayers, silly/sentimental/ raucous/rude words, curses by reading poetry or browsing GMG than by listening to music. :)
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 09, 2022, 06:04:55 AM
Of course one isn't able to understand the composers intention fully if one doesn't know or understand the text. But the OP's question was - as I read it - whether the text may be a disturbing factor in the enjoyment of the music, and if at least some music is enjoyed the best when you don't know the text. For my own part, I often think that it is enough to know the content of the text in general terms in order to enjoy the music as such.
A general sense yes, when the composer doesn't set the word with their meaning in mind - when they're just set to use the sounds of the syllables. But in the core of classical music, from Bach to Britten say, it's not like that. The words matter. And if you only know the gist you're missing out on quite a big aspect of the music: understanding why those words phrases and sentences have been set in that way.
You're effectively choosing to pretend that the composer has set the text music for the sounds only, or more or less.
Let's take an example which came up recently in a discussion - BWV 140, Wachet Auf . . . If you didn't play pretty close attention to the text, you'd miss all the sexiness of the recitative and duet. That will very much restrict your ability to appreciate the nuances of the music in performance, especially in a performance like Harnoncourt's where the duet is sung by boy and bass.
I wonder how many people who have enjoyed this lollipop of a cantata are completely unaware of how sexually charged it is, because they don't bother with the text. I think that's totally superficial.
Quote from: Florestan on August 09, 2022, 07:29:29 AM
Would you please elaborate a bit on this? I see it's from Wallensteins Tod but a bit of context and why you like it so much would be most helpful --- as well as an English or French translation. Google Translate doesn't make much sense to me but I guess it's precisely because of the lack of context. I'm really interested. TIA.
It means in English
Doubt flees in the face of necessity: it must be night for Friedland's stars to shine.A good friend of mine used to use it like a mantra almost to give herself courage and single mindedness in difficult times.
Quote from: San Antone on August 09, 2022, 07:35:36 AM
The combination of music and text is IMO the highest form of musical art. All of my favorite music is either songs or choral works. And having been a professional songwriter for much of my life, the craft of lyric writing and setting it musically has been an enduring interest, nay obsession, for me for as long as I can remember.
That said I do enjoy purely instrumental music - but there is also no doubt in my mind that text+music is far and away what really interests me.
Please upload one of your songs for us to hear.
Last night I listened to Handel's cantata Apollo and Dafne. The text is as silly at it gets --- I mean, Apollo has just liberated Greece from an unspecified enemy (just figure that!) after which he spends about seven numbers trying to seduce Dafne, a nymph who isn't even able to recognize the liberator of her land, let alone fall in love with him. Please! (It's an Italian cantata so I was able to understand much of what is sung)
But boy, is the music gorgeous! Some of it is playing in my head right now.
Quote from: Florestan on August 09, 2022, 08:00:36 AM
Last night I listened to Handel's cantata Apollo and Dafne. The text is as silly at it gets --- I mean, Apollo has just liberated Greece from an unspecified enemy (just figure that!) after which he spends about seven numbers trying to seduce Dafne, a nymph who isn't even able to recognize the liberator of her land, let alone fall in love with him. Please! (It's an Italian cantata so I was able to understand much of what is sung)
But boy, is the music gorgeous! Some of it is playing in my head right now.
You can make almost any text sound silly if you say it like that. I could make King Lear and the Iliad sound silly. But King Lear and The Iliad are major works of art because of the poetry, i.e. the music created by the words chosen.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 09, 2022, 08:07:48 AM
You can make almost any text sound silly if you say it like that. I could make King Lear and the Iliad sound silly. But King Lear and The Iliad are major works of art because of the poetry, i.e. the music created by the words chosen.
Sorry, this is not an apt comparison.
King Lear and
The Illiad are not musical works, the (credible) claim that the later was rather sung than recited notwithstanding (I suspect it was pretty much something like a
recitativo secco).
But generally your point is valid: a sequence of words can create an inner music.
For instance, these two Romanian examples:
1.
Argint e pe ape şi aur în aer literally means
Silver is on waters and gold in the air and the meaning is that the shining moon is reflected on a lake.
Prin vulturi vântul viu vuia,
Vrun prinţ mai tânăr când trecealiterally means
Through eagles the wind vividly wuthered
When some younger prince rode byand the meaning is that when a younger prince rode by the wind wuthered by the side of the eagles on his helmet.
Both verses are highly musical even without any music attached.
Just ask Petru on your next meeting. :D
Quote from: Mandryka on August 09, 2022, 07:36:33 AM
It means in English
Doubt flees in the face of necessity: it must be night for Friedland's stars to shine.
A good friend of mine used to use it like a mantra almost to give herself courage and single mindedness in difficult times.
The best mantra for those times is this:
Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. ---
Guillaume Ier d'Orange-Nassau (le Taciturne)One need not hope in order to undertake, nor succeed in order to persevere. ---
William I, Prince of Orange, Count of Nassau-Dillenburg (William the Silent)
I only read Wallenstein once as an untutored kid decades ago (maybe some more conservative schools still read it in class in the 1980s, we only read the more entertaining "Räuber"/Brigands and "William Tell") and I probably missed a lot but that quote must be connected to Wallenstein's (he himself is "Friedland" or "der Friedländer", the name of his duchy? or so) belief in astrology (none less than Kepler made horoscopes for Wallenstein) or more generally, fate and duty. The most famous quote in German from this context is probably Wallenstein's advisor: "In deiner Brust sind deines Schicksals Sterne", i.e. your fateful stars are in your heart, it's up to you to be courageous, not waiting for the hour destined by the stars.
A lot depends on background and the commentaries one has. I recall a native participant in a German language forum who apparently had not realized in years of listening to "Winterreise" that the "tavern" or "inn" in "Das Wirtshaus" IS the graveyard.
As for "Wachet auf" I (almost) grew up with this imagery in church (although probably not as colorful and stark as Lutherans in the 18th century) and I also remember that I read on a record sleeve or so that one could almost use the piece (or at least the duets) as a wedding cantata.
But it's certainly true that a lot of these texts are nowadays historically and culturally rather distant to us (although 19th century songs less than 17th century church texts) and if one wants to dig in one needs commentary (and translations).
Quote from: Jo498 on August 10, 2022, 12:41:06 AM
I only read Wallenstein once as an untutored kid decades ago (maybe some more conservative schools still read it in class in the 1980s, we only read the more entertaining "Räuber"/Brigands and "William Tell") and I probably missed a lot but that quote must be connected to Wallenstein's (he himself is "Friedland" or "der Friedländer", the name of his duchy? or so) belief in astrology (none less than Kepler made horoscopes for Wallenstein) or more generally, fate and duty. The most famous quote in German from this context is probably Wallenstein's advisor: "In deiner Brust sind deines Schicksals Sterne", i.e. your fateful stars are in your heart, it's up to you to be courageous, not waiting for the hour destined by the stars.
A lot depends on background and the commentaries one has. I recall a native participant in a German language forum who apparently had not realized in years of listening to "Winterreise" that the "tavern" or "inn" in "Das Wirtshaus" IS the graveyard.
As for "Wachet auf" I (almost) grew up with this imagery in church (although probably not as colorful and stark as Lutherans in the 18th century) and I also remember that I read on a record sleeve or so that one could almost use the piece (or at least the duets) as a wedding cantata.
But it's certainly true that a lot of these texts are nowadays historically and culturally rather distant to us (although 19th century songs less than 17th century church texts) and if one wants to dig in one needs commentary (and translations).
I have to admit I haven't made that connection either (Wirtshaus - graveyard). Which is quite a bit embarrassing because my native language is German and I'm a linguist with a special interest in metaphors and similar phenomena. And Schubert is maybe my absolute favourite composer. Maybe this failure is a case of what is sometimes called "good-enough processing". You feel you've understood enough of a text and stop processing it. This often leads to misunderstandings when "good enough" turns out to be not nearly good enough. For example, many readers don't really notice the problem with the sentence: "There was a horrible plane crash. After many months, people could finally visit the place where the survivors were buried."
In my case, I of course understood that it's all about death and dying, but I just didn't make that obvious connection between tavern and graveyard.
It must be horrible to survive a plane crash to then be buried alive! ;D
Quote from: ritter on August 10, 2022, 07:16:48 AM
It must be horrible to survive a plane crash to then be buried alive! ;D
:) :laugh: Well, I hadn't thought of THAT interpretation. ;D
The incomprehensible 'Perfect Fool' opera by Holst might be a good example of this.