GMG Classical Music Forum

We all know there are differences between the conductors, but what are they?

I find it hard to express, certainly, but there is also a great deal of hearsay out there, with lots of rubbish flying about, especially about controversial conductors such as Toscanini (see Winter 2006 edition of Classic Record Collector).

I therefore wanted to start a thread about all conductors, but specifically about compariing our own experiences with that of the perceptions/reputations of them within our community. It might also be interesting to share anecdotes.

Here is a list for starters, I am not going to add to it because I have started this thread for the very reason I don't know enough about them:

Szell
Bernstein
Karajan
Toscanini
Furtwangler
Leinsdorf
Levine
Solti
Kondrashin
Davis
Marriner
Gardiner
Abbado
Barenboim
Beecham
Bohm
Chailly
Celibidache

Beecham is probably my favourite conductor and had a tongue as caustic as Oscar Wilde at times:

Once in rehearsal he was unsatisfied with the performance of a female cello soloist, and said to her - "Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!"

Or,

In reference to Sir Adrian Boult:

"He came to see me this morning - positively reeking of Horlicks!"

:D

My favourite conductors are probably Nikolaus Harnoncourt and René Jacobs (for his Mozart and Monteverdi). I lack experience of the conductors mostly reckoned to be the "giants" (Toscanini, Karajan et al), som I cannot really comment on any of those.

I had the great good fortune ro see/hear "live" in concert every conductor on your list except Toscanini, Furtwaengler and Celibidache. And I have a plethora of recordings by T and F. Celibidache on the other hand, TO ME, seems not to be worth wasting my time over.
Again, to me, the most impressive were Karajan, Szell, Solti, and Bernstein. The intensity of their performances was always way above par. And in fact, was often overwhelmingly intense.
There are many great conductors that you should have included on your list, but didn't. Among them, Monteux, Munch, Stokowski, C. Kleiber, Reiner, Kubelik, Van Beinum and Haitink. Certainly they belong on any such list BEFORE I would include Marriner, Leinsdorf and Gardiner

There are many conductors I like, especially Furtwangler, Kleiber (father and son), Salonen, Monteux, and at times Lenny.

I know Iago would agree with me on Salonen.

BTW, Iago, what do you think of the young conductor who will take over LA Phil in a couple of years? Have you ever heard him? I assume Salonen himself highly recommend him since surely he is part of the braintrust in the decision making process.

Six on your list are still living, although some would say that that is arguable! ;D

You'll know from experience. Who turns you on the most in, say, Beethoven?

The drive of period instrument conductors like Gardiner is not a million miles away from, say, Toscanini.

However, you might require something that, apparently, allows the music to breathe a bit more, in which case Furtwangler is your man.

Some went for precision and feeling and still end up sounding like clockwork, others built the music up to great and empty climaxes that might be OK in concert but becomes tiresome on repitition.

I think that there is an art in recording for posterity and I can list those conductors that I think knew and achieved that in that they presented subtle performances that refuse to be revealed at first hearing and will give a lifetime of pleasure.

One of those not on your list was Rudolf Kempe. Not great in everything, but who was/is!

Quote from: springrite on April 16, 2007, 10:55:20 PM
BTW, Iago, what do you think of the young conductor who will take over LA Phil in a couple of years? Have you ever heard him? I assume Salonen himself highly recommend him since surely he is part of the braintrust in the decision making process.

Dudamel is brilliant. I just heard him do an excellent Mahler 1 with the CSO. Click on the globe under my avatar for a full review.

I have kept some thoughts on various conductors, some written just to remind me of performances, others preserved from either posts on the other site, or from E mails to people who asked me questions. I do not mean it to read as self indulgence, here is a part of what I have kept. There is more, but personally I don't tend to read very long posts.

Mike


Of all the conductors I have sung for in choir, I still think Gary Bertini was one of the best; he used to work in Scotland a lot and I was in quite a few of his choral performances. He spoke about seven languages fluently and was comfortable in all kinds of music. Technically he was a superb musician. He adapted the sound of the orchestra to suit say French or German music. He could and did pick up not just wrong notes but I watched him in a thick texture drill down to find errors in the part scores. He was a good orchestral trainer, but testy and impatient.

I recall a completely wonderful Berlioz Romeo and Juliet, full of passion. The rehearsals were stormy, he got angry with the orchestra to the point that he threw a chair across the stage. About three minutes later and in the middle of a bar the orchestra walked out....the three hour session had elapsed. However on the night they played up a storm.

I also was in a terrific performance of the Berlioz Grande Messe in Milan, he was good at big scale pieces, This one in an enormous tent, The acoustics were surprisingly good, I recall feeling blotted out in the Tuba Mirum by the 10 sets of kettle drums as they made the air crackle. . Walton's Belshazzar's Feast became much more than a showpiece, he made it make sense in the context of singing it in Israel. The Bible setting clear to him,he explained it in its context as we stood in the country itself under threat at the time. Previn may have given it more bling-bling; but Bertini gave it a lot more depth.

The best performance of Stravinsky's Oedipus Rex that I was involved with was again Bertini's; sledgehammer drama and deep regret. That may have worked against the distancing concept of Stravinsky, but it etched itself more deeply on my mind than several others who I sang it for, rather more famous names.

He was generally difficult and he could be scathing towards soloists if they were not absolutely accurate. The orchestras did not much enjoy his style. This rather than talent may have meant he had not been brought more into the limelight.

Gullini: He was immensely courteous, he spoke quietly and we had to strain to hear him. The rehearsals were rather like the sermon on the mount from 'Life of Brian' as we relayed to one another what we thought he had said. He liked to talk about the texts; we were singing the Verdi Four Sacred Pieces. I recall he wanted the words 'Stabat mater' to have a heaving sigh to express the meaning of what we were singing. He was very exact with breathing marks and although we had seemingly been rehearsing to his marked score, he changed quite a few and concentrated on certain parts of the score letting other stretches work through without comment. He used a stick and to my eyes his face looked as though his entrails were being pulled through his bum. He was god to a lot around me, but for the most part he left me cold. I think even then his best work was behind him. Everything was very slow. I have a theory that as conductors get older, then, with some exceptions, their music making slows down as the pulse of the music is related to their own slowing bodily pulse.


He was careful getting an initial balance within the choir. When it came to the orchestral rehearsal, he played through making almost no comments, then spoke some detail to the leader. He did chording with the LA Phil. brass, not to correct notes, but to obtain a blend. It all went for almost nothing as the performances were in the Hollywood Bowl. That whole set up with Carlo goes to Hollywood seemed a curious mismatch of culture to this private and aristocratic man. I seem to recall the fixer there was Ernest Fleicher or Fleichman who made his presence known, he seemed like the sort who could broker a deal to sell Hoovers to desert dwellers.

During the performance someone out in the picnic area let off a sparkling wine bottle with a report like a gunshot, Gullini clutched his heart and momentarily we wondered what had happened, the music flowed on. I felt he had little to say in terms of delivering the music. It was a strange combination.


Maazel: Very business-like, but also relaxed. Not seeming to be very interested, he produced an efficient but rather boring Beethoven 9th. He checked for markings in the orchestral scores in some detail, then played through pretty much without stopping. He seemed intent on having the music played to the markings of the score. He did not vary the pulse much. Unlike Sinopoli who pulled the Mahler 2 around like dough. Sinopoli intellectualised the music explaining his fix on the ideas within the score at great length both to the chorus in piano rehearsal and to the orchestral players, but they stayed attentive to him. He used a stick. He had a very clear beat and was one to eyeball a section when it was due to come in. He was able to use one arm to keep time and the other to shape the music and bring people in. But in fact his Mahler 2 was deathly boring. A great disappointment.

John Elliott Gardiner; Straight away, I want to make clear I think he produces superb results, especially in the last 15 years or so. When I was involved in his performances, he was the only conductor who ever gave me the impression that he did not like working with amateurs. He would spend a lot of time lecturing us on what he wanted before we were allowed to sing. He was an ultra interventionalist . He phrased everything in enormous detail and worked that detail to death. With the orchestra he was quite different in manner where there were shared jokes. But he was attentive to everything and put in an enormous amount of detail. For everything I saw him work on, he had gone back to the manuscripts and amended traditional performance practice. I got the impression he HAD to put his stamp on any working edition of a score and take issue with anyone else's edition. I was in his very first attempt at Damnation of Faust. We did it in the town Berlioz was born in. Just a few days later and we were performing and recording it in Lyon, he had rethought it greatly to its benefit and produced a performance of much delicacy and drive. Although issued by Phillips, the sound is recessed and detail thereby lost, along with impact. This was an early recording by Anne Sophie von Otter, she was grave, beautiful voice at that time but impassive, not a patch on Diana Montague who had sung at La cote Saint Andre days previously and in my opinion is the better singer.
I saw Gardiner wait for players to write in the phrasing he wanted.

Quote from: knight on April 17, 2007, 07:12:35 AM
I have kept some thought on various conductors, some written just to remind me of performances, others preserved from either posts on the other site, or from E mails to people who asked me questions. I do not mean it to read as self indulgence, here is a part of what I have kept. There is more, but personally I don't tend to read very long posts.

Mike

(..)

Gullini: (..) He was god to a lot around me, but for the most part he left me cold. I think even then his best work was behind him. Everything was very slow. I have a theory that as conductors get older, then, with some exceptions, their music making slows down as the pulse of the music is related to their own slowing bodily pulse.

Maazel: Very business-like, but also relaxed. Not seeming to be very interested, he produced an efficient but rather boring Beethoven 9th. He checked for markings in the orchestral scores in some detail, then played through pretty much without stopping. He seemed intent on having the music played to the markings of the score. He did not vary the pulse much. Unlike Sinopoli who pulled the Mahler 2 around like dough. Sinopoli intellectualised the music explaining his fix on the ideas within the score at great length both to the chorus in piano rehearsal and to the orchestral players, but they stayed attentive to him. He used a stick. He had a very clear beat and was one to eyeball a section when it was due to come in. He was able to use one arm to keep time and the other to shape the music and bring people in. But in fact his Mahler 2 was deathly boring. A great disappointment.

John Elliott Gardiner; (...) He would spend a lot of time lecturing us on what he wanted before we were allowed to sing. He was an ultra interventionalist . He phrased everything in enormous detail and worked that detail to death. With the orchestra he was quite different in manner where there were shared jokes. But he was attentive to everything and put in an enormous amount of detail. For everything I saw him work on, he had gone back to the manuscripts and amended traditional performance practice. I got the impression he HAD to put his stamp on any working edition of a score and take issue with anyone else's edition. (...) I saw Gardiner wait for players to write in the phrasing he wanted.

Mike great post!  :)

What struck me was that you describe these conductors exactly as I experience them as a listener... Very interesting!

Q

Thanks Que, I have yards more, but am not going to spam the site with it all just yet.

Mike

Quote from: knight on April 17, 2007, 07:12:35 AM
John Elliott Gardiner; Straight away, I want to make clear I think he produces superb results, especially in the last 15 years or so. When I was involved in his performances, he was the only conductor who ever gave me the impression that he did not like working with amateurs. He would spend a lot of time lecturing us on what he wanted before we were allowed to sing. He was an ultra interventionalist . He phrased everything in enormous detail and worked that detail to death. With the orchestra he was quite different in manner where there were shared jokes. But he was attentive to everything and put in an enormous amount of detail. For everything I saw him work on, he had gone back to the manuscripts and amended traditional performance practice. I got the impression he HAD to put his stamp on any working edition of a score and take issue with anyone else's edition. I was in his very first attempt at Damnation of Faust. We did it in the town Berlioz was born in. Just a few days later and we were performing and recording it in Lyon, he had rethought it greatly to its benefit and produced a performance of much delicacy and drive. Although issued by Phillips, the sound is recessed and detail thereby lost, along with impact. This was an early recording by Anne Sophie von Otter, she was grave, beautiful voice at that time but impassive, not a patch on Diana Montague who had sung at La cote Saint Andre days previously and in my opinion is the better singer.
I saw Gardiner wait for players to write in the phrasing he wanted.

Just a short reply to your most excellent post.  I am a huge Gardiner fan, too, even though most of the time the repertoire he does is a bit off my radar.  But the CD below, with Stravinsky Symphony of Psalms and choral music by Lili Boulanger, is quite terrific. 

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000068PHA.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

--Bruce

I enjoyed this piece from yours Mike, very informative, and I learned quite a bit.

Thanks guys.....slab two.....

Mike

Sir John Pritchard . He spent all the coffee breaks going round and writing his marks into the part scores as they stood on the music stands. Pritchard used an unusually long stick, it was easy to see and he was a pleasure to work with. His was civilised music making, but without an individual stamp on it. Perhaps surprisingly he had a larger admiring entourage than even Michael Tilson Thomas, but thereby hangs another tale. The best of him was a wonderful and joyous Haydn Creation.



Abbado wanted a well schooled sound, but not smooth. His French music sounded different in blend from his German music. He is good at building climaxes and sustaining sound, demands a very graded diminuendo. Abbado: calm, communicated with a very expressive face and hand gestures. Did not talk about the music, stuck to the technical terms for what he wanted then expanded these, Like so many, an acute ear for blend. Liked eye contact to bring in sections or specific instruments.
He could become angry if mucked about by the orchestra, then would make his specific irritations known in a tense but very quiet way. Had a good command of the orchestras, who tended to watch him closely. He used a stick and was clear with the beat. He did not waste time in rehearsals. Organised and a clear sense of the architecture of a piece. He conducted Act 2 of Lohengrin as a vast arc and an exciting and involving performance. This included the major debut of Rosalind Plowright, just before she made the Trovatore with Gullini. Abbado also oversaw a stellar Verdi Requiem with Margaret Price and Jessye Norman swaying in the Lacrimosa. He brought over from Italy a chorus coach who we were supposed to watch during the rehearsals and performance. We could not get used to him and found him a distraction. It was the only occasion I encountered this arrangement, which I was told was common in Italy. The performance has been issued on DVD. In rehearsal Carearas made the odd fluff. He started to blame the orchestra for distracting him by dropping pencils. For the rest of the rehearsal, Abbado had to suffer a plague of dropped pencils every time Carearas opened his mouth. Price sang superbly transcending an outfit that made her look like Miss Piggie.

Muti
Usually I felt his final rehearsal was better than the performances, they seemed to be free of tension, relaxed, like people there making music together for the love of it.
Very concentrated in rehearsal, never described the music, but communicated clearly. He would conduct with a stick and spend time conducting with his eyes closed. Does not bring in sections like they are idiots during performance, but would concentrate a lot on the sound of the string sections. Quite active on the podium, gave a lot of notes to the musicians. Built a rapport with people. He could get a quieter sound out of the Philharmonia than I have ever heard, quiet, but projected and intense.

I have sung in about a dozen Muti performances. I always enjoyed the experience. He could crack the whip with the orchestra. I recall a rehearsal with the Philharmonia, (London): a brass player, who had a bit of a playing gap was reading a newspaper. Muti noticed and stood on the podium looking at the reader, the orchestra fell silent, he waited and eventually the poor reader looked up. Then in tones of ice he quietly said, "We do not do that in THIS orchestra." The players always watched him, which was not the case with a number of orchestras.
I also recall a performance that had started when the corporate junket guests noisily filed into the front row of the circle. He became aware of the disturbance, stopped the music, turned round with arms folded and watched them. They got the message and settled down as quickly as they could, but he continued to stare at them, clearly furious and the silence seemed to stretch for a very long time. Finally he restarted the piece from the beginning.

I loved singing in the Albert Hall, the atmosphere at Proms time is buzzy. I did probably about half a dozen proms. We also used to go to London to sing at the Queen Elizabeth Hall. One of these occasions was to do Berlioz Romeo and Juliet for Muti. For the Berlioz there is a section for the men offstage, this meant getting us on, off and then on. Muti refused to have this, so, on the night some professionals were hired to stand in the wings and sing to a TV screen of Muti. They went spectacularly flat, much to our mortification as the programme did not mention them, only us.
I think Muti live is quite different from the lower voltage Muti in the studio. At the Edinburgh Festival we did the Beethoven Choral Fantasia with him and Peter Frankel was the pianist. In rehearsal it was relaxed and like a chamber music performance, wonderful. That atmosphere was replaced at performance by a stiffer stilted style, a great shame.



In my experience, Rattle likes to talk to the singers about the concepts of the music, usually he is very enthusiastic. He then conducts without the score and mouths abstractly and manically. He is clearly interested in allowing people to hear what is written in the score. Live he takes more extreme risks than in the studio. He is thorough and methodical, usually polite, but also lets it be quietly known if he is unhappy. He has a sharp ear and tracks errors down. He likes choral singers to watch him and to sing without scores so as to facilitate contact with them.

It is generally easy to follow him, though not so easy to detect the first in the bar.
I sang in Rattle's first performance of the Beethoven Ninth, it had a chamber like feel to it and was quite swift, but it did not engage what I feel are the deeper aspects of the score and although organised and tidy and light on its feet, it did not have gravitas or beauty or a sense of exploration. When he arrived he demanded that we sing without scores, Birmingham always did this, but it was much too near the concert to pull a stunt like that on us. So he had to be content with us holding the scores.  Birmingham even managed the Glagolitic Mass without the music, a considerable achievement, but apart from it meaning everyone watching the conductor more attentively, I can't say I can hear any difference than when a good choir is singing from scores and being properly attentive


I happened across a version of Mahler's 8th conducted by Boulez and I was in the performance. I had no idea it had been preserved. Here are my recollections from 30 years ago and then I give as dispassionate as possible review of the discs.

In 1975 the Scottish National Orchestra Chorus was riding high often attracting engagements without the SNO orchestra and having an annual appearance at the London Proms. It was also when Pierre Boulez was the chief conductor of the BBC Philharmonic. We joined them, the BBC singers and Choral Society plus the Wandsworth School Choir for the Mahler.

The rehearsals went Ok, though we found Boulez distant and uncommunicative. The behaviour of the teacher with the Wandsworth boys caused raised eyebrows as several times we encountered him sitting on the floor astride a boy tickling him. How the world has changed; now he would be subject to rather more than dirty looks should he be so unwise as to behave in such a way.

At the performance I almost needed binoculars to see Boulez, he semaphored like a bandmaster. During the performance one of a group of us, who was going to go out after the performance for dinner, left the platform. He went AWOL and eventually I tracked him to the nearest hospital, admitted dead on arrival after having thrown himself under a subway train. All this coloured my memory of an unsatisfactory and uninvolving performance. I have had little time for Boulez since, not enjoying his music or his philosophy...he did at one time advocate burning down all opera houses, presumably Bayreuth had him sign a contract foreswearing pyromania.

So, what of the performance on the discs. It is on a label called Living Stage, LS347.16, cost £9 from MDC on The Strand, London and has passionate excerpts from the Berlioz Romeo and Juliet as a makeweight at the start of the first disc.

I was very taken aback and have to eat a lot of hostile words. It is miles away from being the metronomic performance of my memory. It surges and is full of energy and of repose. The soloists mostly do well with one significant exception. Edda Moser and Linda Esther Gray lead the soaring soprano soloists with the brief rather forward, but beautifully poised appearance of Wendy Eathorne. Elisabeth Connell and Bernadette Greevy are first rate Mezzos and Sigmund Nimsgern and Marius Rintzler take good care of the lower voices. The blot is Alberto Remedios, ENOs famous Siegfried. He is superb in the first movement then falls apart completely in the second, he uses head voice where his voice is splintering, cracks on attempted high notes or even leaves them out, provides late entries and tries hard to gentle his way round the Jungfrau. It is a shocker.

Boulez sets off at a terrific pace and the choirs do well with the entries distinct, secure and well sung rather than shouted. The end of the first movement presses forward and the upward fountains of the choral parts come across exceptionally. The actual sound coming off the discs surprised me with no noticeable compression and forward sound, an unusually fine radio recording.

The second movement opens poetically, there is wonderful ebb and flow throughout and many textures are filigree. Very few fluffs from the orchestra, one or two ragged brass entries apart, they sound on great form. The long stretch of the second part is very well sung by committed soloists, except as already mentioned, Remedios. The ending has terrific sonority as the engineers capture the staggering noise of the Albert Hall organ in full flow.

So, I am happy to listen repeatedly for much more than nostalgic reasons and the noise you hear as you read is me eating many critical words about Boulez. On the night we had felt flat rather than elated. I recall another concert that undeservedly had a reverse effect. Gibson conducting Mahler 2 with Jessye Norman, we all thought it was wonderful, I saw it on TV months later and it was boring. Possibly at least sometimes the performers are not the best judges of what just happened.

Wow keep them coming Mike, really good reading material. I loved to read the part about Muti & Abbado!
So many nice details.
Learning experience, again. :)

Thanks for posting these great anecdotes Mike. Interesting and informative.

Quote from: knight on April 17, 2007, 09:30:40 AM
Sir John Pritchard . He spent all the coffee breaks going round and writing his marks into the part scores as they stood on the music stands. Pritchard used an unusually long stick, it was easy to see and he was a pleasure to work with. His was civilised music making, but without an individual stamp on it. Perhaps surprisingly he had a larger admiring entourage than even Michael Tilson Thomas, but thereby hangs another tale. The best of him was a wonderful and joyous Haydn Creation.

How nice to see Pritchard mentioned.  I haven't thought about him for years.  Sometime in the early 1980s, I bought his BBC recording of Scriabin's Symphony No. 3 (The Divine Poem) and then heard him play it live here in NYC.  I recall being completely wowed by the performance.  The cover art on the CD is lovely, too: a drawing of mountain peaks (tried to find a copy online, but no luck).

--Bruce

Bruce,

Pritchard described himself as the eternal bridesmaid. I gathered that he kept his diary clear for the three weeks of the festival and he then was wheeled on last minute instead of other ailing conductors. He substituted for Kubelik, Previn and Bernstein. One year we got Andrew Davis instead of Goodall.

It was a shame to miss out on Bernstein.

Mike

Slab 3

Mike

I have heard and read several conductors say that the better orchestras go with not behind the beat. As a singer in choir, we got instantly used to whatever the band were doing and stuck with their method whether or not it reflected the way it had been timed in piano rehearsal. I would go as far as suggesting a lot of singers were never aware that they were automatically making an adjustment. It was vital you made the adjustment as exposed entries would become even more exposed if you came in ahead of the orchestra on the beat, but the orchestra was working behind it.

One year at the Edinburgh Festival we did the Missa Solemnis with Solti, went straight down to London and repeated it as a prom. I know he comes in for a lot of stick, but even those who would not have his Wagner as a doorstopper were eating out of his hand. He was not well at the first performance, but throughout the rehearsals he was good humoured. He was exact in what he wanted and asked for and got a Germanic pronunciation of the of the Latin. He shouted all the time, not aggressively, but to clarify what he wanted without stopping. He did not use a baton in piano rehearsals, but did when we got to the orchestral rehearsals. He was on good terms with the orchestra. In the two days between the performances he recovered and we were confronted by a dynamo for the second performance. I have a tape of the Prom and I don't think the choir ever sounded better, the energy within the first two movements was remarkable, nor did he simply skate over the reflective passages. I maintain he is an across the score conductor as against an up and down the page guy, that is to say, he seems to grip the tempo and pace and accuracy of entries predominantly over the texture, though he certainly did not ignore colour. 

I got the impression he looked for momentum combined with detail. He asked for a very strange formation of the choir, I have never seen it before or since. In the Albert Hall we were behind the orchestra but on the platform, not in the Choir Stalls. He strung us out right along the platform and there were only four rows of us. I had tenors in front of me. I think it made us work harder as no one could rely on a block of sound and you could only hear a little of what the choir was producing. Siegfried Jerusalem was terrific in the tenor part and Helen Donath coped well with music I felt was a size too big for her.


I was fortunate to get into the SNO chorus without any real music education.... the chorus master was one who was especially interested in specific voices. I joined at 18, then the youngest bass in the choir. He took a liking to my voice and for a year he had me included in his training class, but I still got to sing in all the performances. I have a quick ear and once heard, I could repeat lines to him quite well. Also, because I had heard such a lot of music I knew the style of what we were doing. Lots of singers just turn up to sing and have no insight into the different style of say French rather than German composers, or Classical as against Romantic. Quite quickly he was putting newbies beside me which I took as a compliment. On one occasion in The Albert Hall. Missa Solemnis, I was put at the end of the one line of Bases because he told me he could rely on me keeping it together and coming in strongly on the entries.

This good ear thing is OK for Handel and Bach, but we did Penderecki in that first year and I had to go to a musical friend and be trained like a dog. We did his Stabat Mater and he conducted us. I was well scared, as the music was unaccompanied and he was about three feet from me. At one point all the singers had to produce a different semitone through about three octaves. He knew exactly what notes were missing and was very impatient about it. I managed not draw attention to myself, but was never sure whether I was on the right note or had stolen someone else's. There was only about a third of the choir used for the piece and I think John, the Chorus Master took a flyer on me to study the music at home.

I did a Mahler 8 at the Wolf Trap, 1975, Leinsdorf conducted. He seemed to be somewhat at sea, asked the choir to lead him rather than he lead the choir....A bit of a tall order as no doubt that would mean 500 different opinions. It was not a great performance, made memorable mainly for the terrific rolls of thunder that swept across some of the quiet passages. I did perhaps think Leinsdorf was just too old to cope with this piece, he had been a legendary name to me and I had been keen to sing for him during the tour, it works that way sometimes, then a name not known to you sets you on fire with excitement. He certainly in performance did not follow my lead; I got the impression he preferred to follow the Sopranos.

On that 1976 tour we performed in several of the summer out-doors venues. The oddest was at St Louis. It was a large tent cut in half with the performers in the tent facing out towards the audience. We did Verdi Requiem and Haydn's Creation there. It was boiling hot. The conductor, Alexander Gibson, forgot to give us any sit queues in the Verdi. I recall watching the shirt of the man in front of me turn to water as it stuck to him. It was the first time I had tasted watermelon. I had loads of it as soon as we came off stage.

This was part of a trip in 1976 something like 10 venues in three weeks and an astonishing number of pieces. Let me see what I can recall...
Beethoven's 9th Baremboim and Mehta.
Bach Wachet Auf Gibson
Verdi Requiem and Haydn Creation Gibson
Walton Belshazza's Feast Previn
Copeland Tender Land Mehta
Prokofiev Alexander Nevsky Conlon
Mahler 8th Leinsdorf and Rudel
Bruckner Motets and Handel Zadok the priest + Britten St Cecelia...That was in New York where the orchestra does not appear with amateurs, so it was in St. Pat. Cathedral with an organist.

One year for auditions; presumably to ring the changes we had to sing a couple of songs or arias. A few people got weeded out on that occasion. My wife was always sure she would get chucked out. Her nightmare was when there was a blend problem or a repeated error when the chorus master would go along a section one by one making them sing the problem passage.

As for long hard concerts, I did a Scottish prom consisting of Walton's Belshazzar's Feast and Berlioz Te Deum...weird or what! It would have been OK except that the conductor, Alexander Gibson, was going through a bad patch. He gave us hell at the piano rehearsal claiming we were pushing him too fast on the Berlioz and he had rethought the piece and it was going to be slow. He went on and on. So we did it in rehearsal how he wanted it.

On the night of the performance, Gibson was worse the wear for drink and that meant real danger, we watched him like hawks. Near the beginning of the Walton there is quite a tricky unaccompanied passage for the men. He simply put his baton down, crossed his arms and stared into the middle distance. This was a sweat-instantly-on-the-backs-of-the-knees moment. I saw the Leader pulsing with his bow subtly and followed him, then he brought the orchestra in, Gibson suddenly came to life and conducted the whole thing with a scowl on his face.
Clearly in the interval further refreshment was consumed, we were then treated to probably the FASTEST ever performance of the Te Deum, the real problem being that no two bars were the same length. I especially recall looking at the chorus master standing right at the back of the hall with a broad grin on his face and shaking his head. That is one none of us were going to forget.
During the rehearsals for Gurrelieder the soloists turned up and were introduced to us. Amongst a famous line-up was Hans Hotter as The Speaker. The conductor was Alexander Gibson.
The story unfolded later, but during the break in rehearsal Hotter complained to Gibson that he had not been introduced appropriately for such a distinguished guest. So, when everyone appeared again, just as we were about to start, Gibson brought Hotter to his feet and gave a very supercilious, and at the time puzzling, re-introduction. Gibson's tone and body language said as much as the words. I recall one phrase, "Herr Hotter used to be a very famous singer, today he will speak for us."

Even if they had wanted Hotter back I cannot think he would have been willing.

Gibson could be terrific, but the misses started to outweigh the hits and he ended up retiring, very sad. The Verdi Requiem we did with him in St Louis was extravagantly praised, he was compared to de Sabata. He could be fantastically unprofessional. We were performing Bach's Magnificat and there was a lot of fuss going on in the Cathedral because Princess Margaret would be present. He had not bothered with a piano rehearsal. He was distracted by the sniffer dogs and security people poking round. So, starting in a bad mood it got worse. At one point he looked at a played and said....I did not know there was one of you in this piece.....a dead give away that he had not opened the score. He went through it faster than Gardiner could possibly and we thought this was him just showing his temper, however at the performance, he went at it the same way. He clearly was not in sympathy with Bach and simply catapulted through the piece giving no help to the hard pressed soloists.

I am going to print this info out, its bloody terrific.
As long as you have the info I print. :)

Harry, Thanks...there is more, but I think you all need a bit of a rest.

Mike

Quote from: knight on April 17, 2007, 11:17:02 AM
Harry, Thanks...there is more, but I think you all need a bit of a rest.

Mike

Not me though! :)

I am being cheeky here....slab four the final part now below.

Mike

I recall Julius Rudel doing a passable impersonation of Erich von Stroheim. It seemed even more like life because in the humidity of St Louis he strode angrily about in long shorts, smacking his leg with his long baton almost like a riding crop. This was in preparation for what turned out to be a very fine Mahler 8th. He was superbly nasty, but I am afraid the only people he freaked out were the children's chorus who went silent with fear. The rest of us were not up for being terrorised, we had had to put up for years being alternatively kissed or bitten by Sir Alexander Gibson who several times strode off mid rehearsal because something or other was unendurable. On one occasion it was the puny electric organ which was meant to compete with the full orchestra in Berlioz Grande Messe. Although I could see his point, it did mean that we never did rehearse the final 20 minutes, as he had not managed to reach them in the piano rehearsal either and that kept us on out toes on the night. He did one of his classics on us during the performance. During the Lacrimosa while the Tenors are flagilating themselves with some very tricky whipping music, Gibson spread-eagled himself over the podium, stiff armed, he had not collapsed....the music flowed on in approximate time and Sir Alex eventually decided to rejoin us. Although I never encountered any of the conductors who used to make the orchestra wonder if they had a job in the morning, latterly with Gibson, a number actively looked on a regular basis.

After the declining Gibson years where drink took an increasing toll, Neeme Jarvi was a breath of fresh air. Although he was a good orchestral trainer and brought standards up significantly, he disliked rehearsal. He took a lot of risks in either changing things substantially in performance, or simply not rehearsing passages and taking a flyer. It was always exciting to perform with him. He was easy to follow, to the extent he conducted the Hungarian March in the Damnation of Faust entirely with his eyebrows and shoulders, and it came off terrifically well. His was among the best Mahler 8th I have been in, though he did not do much with the opening of the second movement. Early in his tenure he did Blest Pair of Sirens. by Parry. Although he was a quick learner, he came unstuck here in that he set a grotesquely slow pace, like a run down record. It was broadcast on radio and made us laugh out loud it was such a distortion. He soon got to grips with the 'English' idiom. But that was one of the few performances where I kept running out of breath.

Tippet conducted us in his own work Child of Our Time. This was very exciting to us. He was engaging and knew the score expertly, vital as his sight was very poor and he could not see the score unless his nose was touching it. He picked up the odd error in the orchestral parts. The performance itself was good, but he rocked us by having a sudden memory lapse and at a critically difficulty entry simply stood stock still until he came to again and the leader once again saved the day and kept things going.


Tilson-Thomas made an appearance in Edinburgh to inevitably conduct some Bernstein. He was certainly pleasant, knew what he wanted, but seemed to be very much painting by numbers and there was no freshness, no attempt to draw us in. We were however astonished by his extensive retinue. All men in their 20s or 30s. They did not directly give the game away as to whatever their function was, but they virtually constituted an audience. I never saw a conductor bring anyone to a piano rehearsal, but to bring seven?

Ricardo Chailly was a highlight, personality plus and electrifying. He was one who knew the parts in the score inside out, he somehow embraced everyone without a lot of talking. Precise in what he wanted, he used a stick and had a clear beat. He brought out colours from well known work you had not been aware of. He was young when he came to Edinburgh, but we all knew he was one to watch.

James Conlon, he seemed like a boy, very personable, but he quickly stamped his authority on us. We were doing Nevsky at the Hollywood Bowl, we had a second generation Russian émigré in the choir, she had been coaching us. However, Conlon was not having any of it. It turned out he spoke excellent Russian and he unpicked it and put it back together again, it sounded much more authentic and of course, we ate out of his hand. After the performance, a couple of the orchestra complemented us on our Russian and asked who had coached us.....they were not altogether surprised at the answer. That coaching did us well as we subsequently recorded the piece under Jarvi....who seemed to take what he got in that respect, so it was as well it was good. 

Temirkarnov was like Russian Royalty. His gestures were almost balletic with his hands, as though he was slicing the air and dividing it into quarters. He was relaxed and friendly, but as soon as the music started he became this hieratic figure his face withdrawn. One piece we did was Nevsky, we never saw the soloist until the actual concert, the legendary Irina Arkapova. The show was stopped to allow her entrance for her aria, then she swept off....I guess you can only sit through Nevsky so many times, but I should think her fee would have been fat and I was disappointed she could not be bothered to sit the whole thing out as her movements disturbed the flow of the piece.

Everyone enjoyed Previn, he was easygoing, but totally professional. He was one of the very few who made quips to the choir in the piano rehearsal. He was among the many who really used the ears of the chorus director to sit out in the auditorium and ask about balance. We did Belshazzar's Feast with him conducting the Chicago S.O.. He gave a lot of notes on the score and they really listened to him, then the brass in particular played as thrillingly as possible with a wonderful swagger. Twice after than he was 'ill' when engaged to conduct us.

Other conductors I recall are Leppard, Mackerras, not at all a pleasure, but he got excellent results, Casadasu, hopeless as was Owen Arewll-Hughes, Janowski another I was happy never to see again, he managed to drain all the drama out of Verdi's Four Sacred Pieces, Lobos Cobos who we all rated very highly, Nick Kramer who was an early music guy, but without using early music instruments...odd. Hickox...a swine and deeply unpleasant, Dutoit who was so delighted with us he insisted his contract for the Edin Festival included concerts with us. Baremboim a Philidelphia Beethoven 9 where the players were caught out having not organized the repeats between them, boy was he annoyed about that, Willcocks and Salonon. Exciting days....long past.

Quote from: knight on April 17, 2007, 11:17:02 AM
. . . but I think you all need a bit of a rest.

Oh, we'll be the judge of that laddie! :-)

Quote from: knight on April 17, 2007, 11:23:45 AM
. . . He was superbly nasty . . . .

Oh, I know a choral conductor who sought to emulate that! :-)

QuoteJames Conlon, he seemed like a boy, very personable, but he quickly stamped his authority on us. We were doing Nevsky at the Hollywood Bowl, we had a second generation Russian émigré in the choir, she had been coaching us. However, Conlon was not having any of it. It turned out he spoke excellent Russian and he unpicked it and put it back together again, it sounded much more authentic and of course, we ate out of his hand. After the performance, a couple of the orchestra complemented us on our Russian and asked who had coached us.....they were not altogether surprised at the answer. That coaching did us well as we subsequently recorded the piece under Jarvi....who seemed to take what he got in that respect, so it was as well it was good.

Terrific! And no, I somehow don't believe that Järvi would go out of his way to improve Russian enunciation  ;)

QuoteMackerras, not at all a pleasure, but he got excellent results

I'd love to hear more about this, he's a favorite of mine.

QuoteHickox...a swine and deeply unpleasant

Must be an interesting story here!

QuoteDutoit who was so delighted with us he insisted his contract for the Edin Festival included concerts with us.

Would like to hear more about him too, he consistently puts out high-quality recordings and seems impeccably polished.

Mike, your reminiscences are priceless! Thanks so much for sharing them. You have been a very lucky man to work with so many of these guys. Too funny about Gibson, and a shame. He's made many fine recordings.

Edit: Could you remind us Mike, what the group was you sang with? Was it the Royal Scottish National Chorus?

I second the request for more info on Dutoit and would like to add a request on more about Barenboim (when was this? you said Philly? 1970s?).

BTW, my father played under Previn and Rudel on a few occasions and would second your observations about both.

Mike, I only just got here so my praise might seem a little late but thanks for the great posts! Fascinating material! Thanks so much! :D :D :D :D

Maciek

Quote from: springriteBTW, Iago, what do you think of the young conductor who will take over LA Phil in a couple of years? Have you ever heard him? I assume Salonen himself highly recommend him since surely he is part of the braintrust in the decision making process.

Indeed, the praise doesn't get much better than this -

At a news conference Monday officially announcing Dudamel's appointment, Salonen said, "I was moved to tears, and so was practically everyone else," by Dudamel's performance of Mahler's Fifth Symphony at the Mahler competition. "We realized this was a rare and natural talent that happens every now and then in history, but not very often."

That impression was confirmed, Salonen said, by not only Dudamel's Bowl debut but also a performance of Kodaly, Rachmaninoff and Bartok at Walt Disney Concert Hall in January.

"Halfway through the first piece," Salonen said, "I whispered to my wife, 'Jane, this is the man. There's absolutely no question about it.'

Talk about a vote of confidence. That quote is from this great article: http://www.southbendtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070415/Ent05/704150462/-1/ENT/CAT=Ent05

I love this quote from Dudamel about future plans with the LA Phil:
"We need to have our honeymoon together to make children."  ;D

Springrite,

      I haven't seen Dudamel yet. But am looking forward to doing so.
However, despite his good reviews, I will make my own judgement when I hear/see him.

Knight,

       Which orchestras were you a member of?
You said you played in the Hollywood Bowl. When was that?

Quote from: Iago on April 17, 2007, 01:42:10 PM
       Which orchestras were you a member of?
You said you played in the Hollywood Bowl. When was that?

Methinks knight was a member of a chorus.  ;)

Thanks folks, let me see what I can recall on the ones you ask about.

Baremboim was in 1976. He was another of the ultra businesslike ones with no interest in small talk. I recall arguing with a couple of the choir who preferred Mehta. We had done the 9th with them both. Mehta had been charming, but again, I think that, compromised by the holiday atmosphere at the Hollywood Bowl, it simply was not anything other than an efficient performance.

The consensus was that Mehta was going to mature into a great conductor and Baremboim would not. I strongly disagreed. I sensed some interesting things, especially in the first and third movements. Years later I understood that Baremboim was influenced by Furtwangler, although it was not much like the Furtwangler performances I have heard, it was definitely an interpretation with ideas. Baremboim seemed diffident when some of the singers accidentally encountered him after rehearsal. He was concentrated, but the Orch was just not quite doing what he wanted.

Conductors are always very careful in front of the amateurs, they are usually fairly circumspect about whatever the problems were. But there were long discussions with the leader and I thought that had we not been there then he would have addressed his obvious unhappiness direct to the orchestra. I can remember Baremboim saying what repeats they were going to take, I saw some write it down, but at least two subsections got it wrong during the performance and his head whipped round while he angrily eyeballed them. I would have liked to work more for him, though he showed no understanding of what he wanted to get from the voices, basically there he took what we had and it was the orchestral detail that preoccupied him.

Mackerras had long been a hero, he was one we really looked forward to. He was doing the Delius Mass of Life and I got the impression he was not much into it. Heather Harper was the soprano and even in her twilight years she sang astonishingly well. It seemed as though only when she was singing that he blossomed. Other than that he was sour with everyone, not happy with the choir, though we thought we were doing just what he wanted. The performance was judged an all round success. I have just remembered our rehearsals were in a very odd hall with bad acoustics, that may have been the problem as I think there was a time lag that took time to overcome. He was very well prepared, but this felt like the fulfillment of a contract and I know from others that he was different to work with when he was performing music he is famous for.

Hickox came on like he was used to better, though we were well regarded. He was utterly impatient, rude, cut people off in the orchestra and used a lot of dismissive body language. It was the B Minor Mass. On the night it was fine, though he scowled at everyone apart from the audience.

Dutoit conducted us in the full Daphnis and Chloe. He was taken aback with our range of colour and accuracy without sounding drilled. He was communicative and very encouraging. It was a terrific performance. I have seen him since and not been very impressed, he did Sibelius that sounded under rehearsed and the chording of the brass was ragged, but back then, he worked in great detail with the orchestra.

One story about Gardiner. He gave us a very hard time in a Schumann piece, 'Paradise and the Peri', he also lectured us about how wonderful it was despite the feeling we had that it was drech. There was one part where the mezzos sang the same note for three pages. It was not difficult music in any way, but he was exacting and seemed unhappy.

I happened to meet him socially after the first rehersal. I guessed he would not recall my face, so innocently asked how his rehearsal had been. He said it was excellent, the singers are first rate. I then explained I was in the choir and we had the impression we could not do anything right for him and that if he liked what we were doing, he could try saying so. I have to say he looked nonplussed, but I never have been the sort to be intimidated. This was the only time I ever tried to speak to any of the conductors, but he had annoyed me so much.

He was markedly different in the following rehearsal with us, pleasant and encouraging....once we got to being with the orchestra, it was as though he was simply putting up with us. Having said this he then asked for us for Damnation of Faust and we were surprised at that. On that recording he brings out some of the most beautiful and graduated singing we ever achieved.

Mike

Quote from: Iago on April 17, 2007, 01:42:10 PM


Knight,

       Which orchestras were you a member of?
You said you played in the Hollywood Bowl. When was that?

Iago, I was in choirs, not orchestras. I travelled quite a bit with both the Scottish National Orch Chorus...as it then was, also The Edinburgh Festival Chorus and in an incarnation called the Scottish Chorus where we would be rehearsed for a week or so, then sent abroad.

Mike

I am in awe, that you have worked with so many of the greatest.  You have enough for a small book, there!

--Bruce

That document has been on my desktop for ages, the more I write the more I recall, sometime I will explain about Menuhin, but I am sure lots of you have stories and opinions.

This cannot be allowed to turn into the Mike Thread.

Mike

Maybe, but I for one wouldn't mind you actually starting a Mike thread. (The Great Recordings section would be appropriate, don't you think ;D?)

Mike, I only saw those posts late last night - what a fantastic collection of memories, and thanks so much for sharing them. I'm also going to be copying them out into a single document to peruse at leisure. :)

And yes, I too feel the pressing need for a Mike thread!

Well, you have been kind. As there have been no objections I will add some new fragments.....I have not thought of this material for ages, but rereading it brought to the surface some more memories.

Menuhin was a legend to us and he had been conducting for quite a few years, for instance in the Bath Festival in the 1960s. We had read mixed accounts about his ability to conduct. He was coming for the Mozart Mass in C. At this point the chorus master was the newly returned to Edinburgh, Arthur Oldam.....quite a character. In between stints with us, he had been the chorus master simultaneously with the Paris Opera and the Concertgebouw. Arthur had tried to get a marked score out of Menuhin and meet him, however, Menuhin's diary was packed full. Eventually, a couple of days before the piano rehearsal Arthur flew over to Paris to see Menuhin and go over the score together. They sat opposite one another and started reading bar numbers out to confirm dynamics etc.

Very soon they discovered they were not working from the same score, ie not merely a different edition, but Menuhin thought he was to perform the Requiem, he had never seen the music for or heard the Mass in C. General consternation, no the choir could not learn the Requiem to standard in a few days, no, the soloists had been engaged for the Mass in C. He undertook to learn the piece.

He was utterly charming and gave no direct indication to us that he simply did not know the piece. The rehearsals were a bit fraught as he was virtually sight reading it. He was not clear on what he wanted and we got frankly confused over the markings he wanted. Arthur gave us notes to 'clarify'. It must have been a fairly scary experience for him, he was already elderly and his memory fallible. The performance was respectable, but not really Festival standard. Arthur did not tell us the story until after the performance.

The chorus master who had basically sponsored me was John Currie. He was a superb voice trainer and had aspirations to be a conductor. We did do several concerts with him, but he somehow did not reach the heights that many of our big guns did. I do recall in programmes his biog referred to his debut date at the Carnegie Hall, what it did not make clear was that this was a hall in Carnegie's native Scotland, not the one in New York. In that very hall we were singing after a performance of Les Nuits d'ete with Felicity Palmer, still at that point a soprano. I have always enjoyed her singing and the following just shows that even the very best can muck it up.

The first song started and Palmer came in three bars early. I was wide eyed wondering whether John would have to stop the piece and restart, then I saw him put three fingers to his chest and dive them down, he repeated this several times and the orchestra scrabbled to catch the singer....she had determinedly sailed on. I was pretty taken aback that the singers beside me had not been aware of any unusual sounds or that anything had gone wrong. It used to annoy me that a lot of them could not tell Ravel from Mendelssohn. I would have assumed anyone with a musical ear could tell when Berlioz suddenly sounds like Berio.

John had a good pair of ears, well used by most conductors who would be happy to take notes from him as he listened out in the hall during orchestral rehearsals and after every such rehearsal he would give very detailed notes. These we found vital and they would often be incorporated into a prematch pep talk in the green room. I only knew of one instance where he overruled the conductor and that was Simon Rattle. This was his first concert with us in the Usher Hall in Edinburgh. It has odd acoustics. Shaped like the Albert Hall, but with a box at the platform end where the choir sit. You have to project very hard to make the sound come through the invisible barrier of the proscenium. We knew the hall well, but Rattle kept telling us we were too loud...in reality, 250 people singing the Faure would be grotesque now, possibly he thought so then. We went quieter and quieter.

Just before the performance, John told us that he had explained to Rattle that the sound was not coming into the hall at all. He said that we simply could not do it like Rattle insisted, we had to sing as we knew in that hall. We did. Although I know there was trouble about it subsequently, Rattle was assiduous in using John's ears in subsequent performances, I guess he learnt.

John subsequently went over to LA to be the director of the St Paul's Orchestra. I am not sure that it went very well. Eventually he came back to Scotland and basically retired, itself an odd thing for a musician to do.

Mike

No Ormandy on that list of old greats?

I wish others would add to this thread...I see Ormandy mentioned. I have no memories of him unfortunately. My only reminder of him is that when I performed with his old orchestra at their summer venue, it was pointed out to us that the swish mobile podium was then the only air conditioned pidium in the world, designed to Ormandy's specifications.

Mike

Mike,

Some other British names other names came to mind that I was wondering if you had the chance to sing under or had reminiscences of. Namely Adrian Boult. :) Also Neville Marriner, Colin Davis, Vernon Handley.

I really enjoy reading these firsthand accounts, they're fascinating. Hopefully other orchestral/choral musicians will happen by with observations to share!

Sorry Greta, I have not been in performances with any of them. Some near misses, Colin Davis had been mooted for one concert, but was repalced well before hand. That happened quite a bit.

Mike

Quote from: knight on June 24, 2007, 01:08:41 AM
I wish others would add to this thread...I see Ormandy mentioned. I have no memories of him unfortunately. My only reminder of him is that when I performed with his old orchestra at their summer venue, it was pointed out to us that the swish mobile podium was then the only air conditioned pidium in the world, designed to Ormandy's specifications.

Mike

Thanks for all the great stuff, Mike! Any brushes with Barbirolli or Walter?

I will be guilty of putting up a "me too" post, but I do want to add my voice to the chorus thanking you for taking the time to share your reminiscences, Mike.

For people interested in learning more about conductors, if you haven't seen the video "The Art of Conducting: Great Conductors of the Past," you might seek it out.  I have a copy on VHS, but I think it is out on DVD now (it's on Teldec Video). It has footage of famous conductors in both performance and rehearsal, with commentary by luminaries including J.E. Gardiner, Isaac Stern, Beecham, Menuhin, Szell, Bruno Walter, Otto Klemperer, Stokowski, Karajan, and others. There is one segment of Koussevitsky conducting the Egmont Overture that is just fantastic and lots of other good stuff besides.

Quote from: Nipper on July 02, 2007, 05:46:56 PM
For people interested in learning more about conductors, if you haven't seen the video "The Art of Conducting: Great Conductors of the Past," you might seek it out.  I have a copy on VHS, but I think it is out on DVD now (it's on Teldec Video). It has footage of famous conductors in both performance and rehearsal, with commentary by luminaries including J.E. Gardiner, Isaac Stern, Beecham, Menuhin, Szell, Bruno Walter, Otto Klemperer, Stokowski, Karajan, and others. There is one segment of Koussevitsky conducting the Egmont Overture that is just fantastic and lots of other good stuff besides.

There is a second volume of the same as well: The Art of Conducting - Legendary Conductors of a Golden Era. This one features Celibidache, Furtwängler, E. Kleiber, Mravinsky, Munch, Mengelberg, Cluytens, Karajan, Scherchen, Talich, with commentary from inter alia Barenboim, Haitink and Menuhin.

As to the first set, which you mention, the full list of featured conductors is: Barbirolli, Beecham, Bernstein, Busch, Furtwängler, Karajan, Klemperer, Koussevitzky, Nikisch, Reiner, Stokowski, Strauss, Szell, Toscanini, Walter, Weingartner, with commentary inter alia by Gardiner, Stern, Menuhin, Knussen.

No Barbirolli or Walter from me I am afraid. I do like this story about Barbirolli....He was rehearsing Aida at Covent Garden, seemingly a spectacular production. Horses in the Triumphal Scene. Things were not going well, at one point one horse crapped onto the stage and Barbirolli remarked.....Everyone's a critic!


Mike

Hmmm - this thread can be compared to being in a foreign city, just strolling along, feeling peckish and saying: "Let's pop inside there and eat!" - and coming upon the best restaurant in the region by happenstance.

Brilliant contributions, Mike!

Thanks indeed....Michel had hoped to read of Furtwangler and Szell, Klemperer and many others that were before my time, I am hoping others will pop by to fill in gaps and provide some overlaps.

Cheers,

Mike

(Was the category Conductors, in general, not a certain group, in the old forum? I can't find it!)

This afternoon I spent close to an hour watching Pierre Boulez rehearsing the Wiener Philharmoniker in concerts by Alban Berg's Three Pieces and his own Notations I-IV. An overwhelming revelation of those two pieces, which had always left me muttering: "Huh?" Oh no, today's session did not remove all the 'huhs', but I got closer to hearing what was being played. Some day I might even understand it completely because of Boulez's enlightening, informative chats in between.

What really impressed me was Boulez's miraculous talent for hearing. An example was a passage in Berg's Orchesterstück II Reigen. There are about one hundred musicians playing, what seemed to me, whatever they wanted to, however they wanted to, more like the sound I am used to when the entire orchestra is tuning up at the beginning of a concert. Boulez interrupts them and asks trumpet 3 to play for him a G. The young man does it. "No, no, wrong, try again". The trumpeter tries again; Boulez not satisfied and after the third try he hums a G for the musician, and he gets it right! Perfect! To me they all sounded the same. Now how on earth could Boulez detect this barely off-key G among the mass of other notes produced by the entire orchestra? He showed this same talent during his Notations IV. He asks three trombones to repeat a certain bar. No good. After repeated tries it is discovered that the mute of one trombonist is shaped different than the other two!

Have I helped you to understand why I love to watch DVDs? Even the videos of concerts are a revelation of what makes any classical piece of music worth my time and concentration. BTW, Boulez during rehearsal is so much more lively, even charming, than during regular performances.  :)

Lis, thank you for this preview.  (I have this DVD but haven't watched it yet!  :'()

Boulez is supposed to be incredible with tuning, and your observation would bear this out.

--Bruce

Quote from: uffeviking on July 24, 2007, 03:29:52 PM

What really impressed me was Boulez's miraculous talent for hearing. An example was a passage in Berg's Orchesterstück II Reigen. There are about one hundred musicians playing, what seemed to me, whatever they wanted to, however they wanted to, more like the sound I am used to when the entire orchestra is tuning up at the beginning of a concert. Boulez interrupts them and asks trumpet 3 to play for him a G. The young man does it. "No, no, wrong, try again". The trumpeter tries again; Boulez not satisfied and after the third try he hums a G for the musician, and he gets it right! Perfect! To me they all sounded the same. Now how on earth could Boulez detect this barely off-key G among the mass of other notes produced by the entire orchestra? He showed this same talent during his Notations IV. He asks three trombones to repeat a certain bar. No good. After repeated tries it is discovered that the mute of one trombonist is shaped different than the other two!

Come on, it's total BS. Boulez just likes to do things like that even though the three G's may sound EXACTLY the same. He does it to make himself look good. Musicians go WOW because they say to themselves: he can tell the difference even though we can't tell a lick, he must be SPECIAL !

I met this one older gentlemen who used to play French horn at the NYPO (don't remember his name) at West End Records in NYC and he tells me Boulez LOVES doing things like that and after awhile musicians (those with good ears anyway) just tune him out. He has respect for the likes of Bernstein, Maazel and even Masur but things Boulez is just a quack.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 24, 2007, 04:14:12 PM
I met this one older gentlemen who used to play French horn at the NYPO (don't remember his name) at West End Records in NYC and he tells me Boulez LOVES doing things like that and after awhile musicians (those with good ears anyway) just tune him out. He has respect for the likes of Bernstein, Maazel and even Masur but things Boulez is just a quack.

Well, the horn player is entitled to his opinion, but I've heard more comments that would support Lis' observation.  (And I mean, let's face it: Boulez didn't exactly have a winning relationship with the NYPO. ;D)

--Bruce

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 24, 2007, 04:14:12 PM
Come on, it's total BS. Boulez just likes to do things like that even though the three G's may sound EXACTLY the same. He does it to make himself look good. Musicians go WOW because they say to themselves: he can tell the difference even though we can't tell a lick, he must be SPECIAL !

I met this one older gentlemen who used to play French horn at the NYPO (don't remember his name) at West End Records in NYC and he tells me Boulez LOVES doing things like that and after awhile musicians (those with good ears anyway) just tune him out. He has respect for the likes of Bernstein, Maazel and even Masur but things Boulez is just a quack.

Talk about BS

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 24, 2007, 04:14:12 PM
Come on, it's total BS. Boulez just likes to do things like that even though the three G's may sound EXACTLY the same. He does it to make himself look good. Musicians go WOW because they say to themselves: he can tell the difference even though we can't tell a lick, he must be SPECIAL !

I met this one older gentlemen who used to play French horn at the NYPO (don't remember his name) at West End Records in NYC and he tells me Boulez LOVES doing things like that and after awhile musicians (those with good ears anyway) just tune him out. He has respect for the likes of Bernstein, Maazel and even Masur but things Boulez is just a quack.

Bear in mind that in this example, Boulez detected dissonance coming from the player's instrument. That taken in context; the other trumpets, I don't find this at all unbelievable. As far as the industry goes, Boulez is known to have a very discriminating ear.

Lis told the story completely wrong. Boulez didn't "tune" a single G over and over, he detected that the second trumpet was playing 3 or 4 wrong notes and looked into that, the trumpet player played the same notes again, technically correct, but the wrong notes again, and then they figured out that he had the transposition key wrong.
That Boulez can even hear that kind of stuff in an enormously complex atonal piece is astonishing beyond description. There are probably only a few people on the planet who can hear that well. That is not a trick or tick, and it earns him a lot of respect from really professional musicians. Because that is what it should be like but rarely is. A lot of conductors don't even hear much easier stuff precise. Which is of course not the way it should be. When a conductor can hear that precise (and that also means that he really knows and understands the piece), that makes him about as far away from a "quack" as possible.

Quote from: M forever on July 24, 2007, 05:35:03 PM
Lis told the story completely wrong. Boulez didn't "tune" a single G over and over, he detected that the second trumpet was playing 3 or 4 wrong notes and looked into that, the trumpet player played the same notes again, technically correct, but the wrong notes again, and then they figured out that he had the transposition key wrong.
That Boulez can even hear that kind of stuff in an enormously complex atonal piece is astonishing beyond description. There are probably only a few people on the planet who can hear that well. That is not a trick or tick, and it earns him a lot of respect from really professional musicians. Because that is what it should be like but rarely is. A lot of conductors don't even hear much easier stuff precise. Which is of course not the way it should be. When a conductor can hear that precise (and that also means that he really knows and understands the piece), that makes him about as far away from a "quack" as possible.

Your rendition of the story seems entirely more plausible. But, given his reputation, I was prepared to believe the story as Lis told it.  :)

M forever: you sound as if you have seen this DVD. I have seen it too, - and just watched it again, digital camera at the ready! The trumpeter who was asked by Boulez to play a G was the very young one - s. screen shot -. In the photo it shows No. 2 lowering his instrument, a golden blurr on the photo because the camera had just switched from Boulez to the musician. You see the other two trumpeters with their instruments in their laps, they had not played the G requested by Boulez.

No, I am not in the mood to start a lengthy discussion about this observation, and especially not with a professional musician. I am just a listener - and observer!  ;D

I'd take this thread's title to mean it's about the conductor's art, not just Boulez'. Here's a video  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyHRsU6dlf4)of Charles Munch rehearsing (in German) and conducting portions of Daphnis with the Hungarian State Orchestra (1966). Personally I don't care if the conductor has a 'surgical' ear. That may very well be his only attribute. What he communicates to the players is what counts.

Quote from: M forever on July 24, 2007, 05:35:03 PM

That Boulez can even hear that kind of stuff in an enormously complex atonal piece is astonishing beyond description. There are probably only a few people on the planet who can hear that well. That is not a trick or tick, and it earns him a lot of respect from really professional musicians. Because that is what it should be like but rarely is.

I have a couple of musicians tell me the exact same thing, and also telling me that conductors like Neemi Jarvi is the total opposite. As a joke some musicians would play the wrong notes and Jarvi had no idea whatsoever. I was at a dinner party and the musicians were joking about it.

Quote from: springrite on July 24, 2007, 07:45:53 PM
I have a couple of musicians tell me the exact same thing, and also telling me that conductors like Neemi Jarvi is the total opposite. As a joke some musicians would play the wrong notes and Jarvi had no idea whatsoever. I was at a dinner party and the musicians were joking about it.

Orchestra musicians will often do that on purpose to test a new guest conductor's mettle.

Quote from: O Mensch on July 24, 2007, 07:56:49 PM
Orchestra musicians will often do that on purpose to test a new guest conductor's mettle.

Really, how obnoxious...

Seems that Boulez has a little bit of Fritz Reiner in him.
Reiner was loathed by the members of his orchestras. But they had such respect for his musicianship and ability to bring out the best in them, that they would have gladly walked on hot coals for him.

I have no proof regarding this next statement, but I don't think that musicians would do the same for Boulez.
Boulez strikes me as being more the "Critical Pedagogue" than the type of conductor able to mold a performance with loving care and respect for his musicians.  Just my OPINION!!!

Quote from: Iago on July 24, 2007, 10:33:16 PM
I have no proof regarding this next statement, but I don't think that musicians would do the same for Boulez.
Boulez strikes me as being more the "Critical Pedagogue" than the type of conductor able to mold a performance with loving care and respect for his musicians.  Just my OPINION!!!

I don't know why the former would necessarily have to exclude the latter. If you have a chance, try to catch the video of the live performance of the Firebird with the CSO from the Cologne MusikTriennale 2000. If that isn't loving care and mutual respect, I don't know what is.

Quote from: uffeviking on July 24, 2007, 06:52:53 PM
M forever: you sound as if you have seen this DVD. I have seen it too, - and just watched it again, digital camera at the ready! The trumpeter who was asked by Boulez to play a G was the very young one - s. screen shot -.

Looks like we are talking about two different scenes. I don't remember the one in the screenshot, probably because if that is what he wanted to tune is not something so special. It's just an open 5th, easy to hear. But the other scene I described with the few wrong notes in the middle of an atonal thicket totally knocked me out. That is astounding. Incidentally, that was the same trumpet player. He was probably nervous and a little insecure, as he was still fairly new with the orchestra at the time. It may not have helped to make his day better that, after the wrong notes got sorted out, someone in the orchestra says very audibly "warum nicht gleich so?" ("why couldn't you do that right the first time").

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 24, 2007, 07:34:39 PM
Personally I don't care if the conductor has a 'surgical' ear. That may very well be his only attribute. What he communicates to the players is what counts.

If the conductor does not have an idea of the piece which is so precise that he can hear exactly in his head what the music should sound like (and therefore notice immediately when it doesn't), he doesn't *have* anything of value to communicate. Whipping up a little "excitement" is not good conducting. Good conducting is if the man with the stick knows and understands the piece deeply and has a conception of it which is so developed that it makes total sense. If he has that kind of conception, then he can also hear when what they play are not the notes written in the score.
Otherwise, he is just a poser who has no business standing in front of professional musicians and waving a little stick at them.

Quote from: Iago on July 24, 2007, 10:33:16 PM
Seems that Boulez has a little bit of Fritz Reiner in him.
Reiner was loathed by the members of his orchestras. But they had such respect for his musicianship and ability to bring out the best in them, that they would have gladly walked on hot coals for him.

Boulez is a completely different kind of conductor. He is always friendly and calm, from what I have heard and seen, the respect he is given by musicians is earned by his deep professionality and the respectful way he treats musicians. He is very demanding, but I have never heard that he terrorizes musicians.

Quote from: Steve on July 24, 2007, 09:56:53 PM
Really, how obnoxious...

Not at all. Every single of the musicians in any professional orchestra has won an audition over sometimes dozens and dozens of competitors, made it through one or two years of his/her trial period, and is required to play difficult pieces well day in and day out. If they can't play the right notes, they can't work. If a conductor can't hear wrong notes, he has no business being a conductor. That is just as much a basic requirement of his job as the musicians have to actually be able to play the right notes (at least) on their instruments. There are many, many hollow posers and impostors on the podium. It is much easier to fake being a conductor than being a musician.

Quote from: springrite on July 24, 2007, 07:45:53 PM
I have a couple of musicians tell me the exact same thing, and also telling me that conductors like Neemi Jarvi is the total opposite. As a joke some musicians would play the wrong notes and Jarvi had no idea whatsoever. I was at a dinner party and the musicians were joking about it.

I am not surprised. It is very obvious from many of his recordings that he often doesn't know the pieces he conducts well, he just waves the orchestra through more or less effectively, but many musical details get overlooked and his performances rarely have arecognizeable concept.

Lis, I'm merging this with the old "Conductors" topic that you missed (it's quite similar). If you decide I'm not allowed to mess with your thread you can just split it again... ;D

Quote from: M forever on July 25, 2007, 01:32:30 AM

If the conductor does not have an idea of the piece which is so precise that he can hear exactly in his head what the music should sound like (and therefore notice immediately when it doesn't), he doesn't *have* anything of value to communicate. Whipping up a little "excitement" is not good conducting. Good conducting is if the man with the stick knows and understands the piece deeply and has a conception of it which is so developed that it makes total sense. If he has that kind of conception, then he can also hear when what they play are not the notes written in the score.
Otherwise, he is just a poser who has no business standing in front of professional musicians and waving a little stick at them.

Nobody denies that, and it wasn't what I was writing about anyway. I was referring to technically outstanding conductors who deliver emotionally sterile performances. Objective knowledge does not necessarily translate into what is referred to as an outstanding performance (whatever the term implies). As a listener I feel more cheated by that kind of poser than by the other one. I have no idea if to a professional musician that Munch clip communicates anything, but as a listener, I find it outstanding.

Quote from: Maciek on July 25, 2007, 04:08:35 AM
Lis, I'm merging this with the old "Conductors" topic that you missed (it's quite similar). If you decide I'm not allowed to mess with your thread you can just split it again... ;D

My most sincere and grateful thanks, dear Maciek and alert fellow moderator!  $:)

I actually had looked at Michel's - BTW where is he? - but thought the thread was restricted to the ones he listed. D'uh!  :-[

My father recounted to me a rehearsal by the LSO of Beethoven's Fifth in the 1950s (with a conductor whose name I forget). The first movement starts before the bar, and the conductor had many false starts trying to begin the piece. In the end, an exasperated orchestra member shouted out: "Just drop your bloody hand, then we'll do the rest".

Lilas Pastia,

    Those "you tube" excerpts with Munch conducting feature the Boston Symphony Orch IN PERFORMANCE. Only the rehearsal segment is with the Hungarian Orchestra.
And just as an aside. I wonder why Boulez was NEVER invited to conduct the Boston Symphony?  i can't imagine that he was ever invited and turned down the invitation. And I'm not too certain that he was ever invited to Philadelphia, either.

Quote from: Harry Collier on July 25, 2007, 07:08:29 AM
My father recounted to me a rehearsal by the LSO of Beethoven's Fifth in the 1950s (with a conductor whose name I forget). The first movement starts before the bar, and the conductor had many false starts trying to begin the piece. In the end, an exasperated orchestra member shouted out: "Just drop your bloody hand, then we'll do the rest".

I don't doubt your father. But I do doubt that ANY orchestra member would shout that way. That would have been the height of disrespect. I thought that the "English" were known for their courteousness?

Quote from: M forever on July 25, 2007, 01:32:30 AM

Not at all. Every single of the musicians in any professional orchestra has won an audition over sometimes dozens and dozens of competitors, made it through one or two years of his/her trial period, and is required to play difficult pieces well day in and day out. If they can't play the right notes, they can't work. If a conductor can't hear wrong notes, he has no business being a conductor. That is just as much a basic requirement of his job as the musicians have to actually be able to play the right notes (at least) on their instruments. There are many, many hollow posers and impostors on the podium. It is much easier to fake being a conductor than being a musician.

That is really for the professional committee that hires for the Conductor to decide. It is not for the performers to "mess with" a conductor during practice. That's obnoxious. Does that mean that I have a problem with having high expectations for conductors? Of course, not.

Quote from: Iago on July 25, 2007, 11:22:44 AM
I don't doubt your father. But I do doubt that ANY orchestra member would shout that way. That would have been the height of disrespect. I thought that the "English" were known for their courteousness?

Professionals don't tolerate amateurs for too long. At around the same 10 year period, the LSO downed bows and reeds and went on strike for one conductor; I THINK (50 years on) my father said it was Bernard Herrrman (an American from Hollywood). But this may just be a jumbled recollection). Anyway, sometimes enough becomes enough.

I saw musicians playing up conductors in various ways. In rehearsal the BBC SO clearly decided they did not think much of Sir David Willcocks. The trombones and trumpets swapped instruments and fooled around. The timps guy stood with arms folded when Willcocks tried to bring him in and he then simply left the platform. I have no idea what it was all about. Willcocks was unfailingly polite and simply raised his eyebrows.

I saw Abbado given a very hard time by his brass players of the LSO. The off-stage guys went to the pub part way through a rehearsal, there was quite a fuss about that one. Abbado was very angry at how some of the musicians behaved, he walked off to cool down. The performance however was as exciting and electric as could be imagined. This was the same orchestra that decided to get back at Carreras when he said his fluffs were caused by dropped pencils. Abbado and the singer were then subjected to a barrage of pencil-dropping whenever he opened his mouth. In a way Carreras asked for it, but the players did not have to give it.

It usually seems to be the brass who are at the centre of trouble. I do recall two posting polo mints down one french horn during rehearsal, one of the London Orchestras, but I do not remember which one.

Mike

Quote from: knight on July 25, 2007, 12:16:12 PM
...It usually seems to be the brass who are at the centre of trouble...

Well, of course!  They get bored waiting two hundred measures for their single fortissimo chord. :-\ ;D

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 25, 2007, 06:31:36 AM
Nobody denies that, and it wasn't what I was writing about anyway. I was referring to technically outstanding conductors who deliver emotionally sterile performances. Objective knowledge does not necessarily translate into what is referred to as an outstanding performance (whatever the term implies). As a listener I feel more cheated by that kind of poser than by the other one. I have no idea if to a professional musician that Munch clip communicates anything, but as a listener, I find it outstanding.

What is musically good and bad or emotionally communicating is really a different thing. A technically "outstanding" conductor who hears everything and knows how to rehearse and direct the orchestra is not a different kind of poser. If he knows his stuff, has good ears, knows the score and has a concept for it that he can bring across in rehearsal, then he is not a poser at all. You or me may not like the interpretation that results from that, but one has to separate that from technical qualities.
But if someone does not have these technical qualities and knowledge, then he also can not develop a valuable interpretation of a complex orchestral piece and direct 80 musicians performing it. Whipping up a little excitement and relying on the orchestra to carry the conductor through the piece so that he looks good is not good conducting - although some good performances sometimes happen despite a bad conductor. But only when the orchestra comes through in spite of him. Which can be really dificult.

Quote from: Steve on July 25, 2007, 11:44:27 AM
That is really for the professional committee that hires for the Conductor to decide. It is not for the performers to "mess with" a conductor during practice. That's obnoxious. Does that mean that I have a problem with having high expectations for conductors? Of course, not.

That's not the way it works. Whatever the "professional" committee decides, if the conducotr is not good, then there is no way he can get respect and professional cooperation from dozens of musicians who are all better than he is. It's not like in other jobs where an incompetent guy gets hired for a management position, the employees think that sucks but return to their cubicles and carry on as before. The orchestra-conductor dynamic is totally different and a bad conductor can be very, very, very, very frustrating for good musicians to deal with. But it is harder to avoid dealing with him than with the incompetent manager.
Although real "messing with the conductor" incidences occur and they make for better stories, that rarely happens in good professional orchestras in the way of "let'stest this guy and give him a hard time". It does sometimes, but not often, I would say.
And that's not even necessary. It is hard to describe, but when a conductor does not know his stuff, it becomes apparent very quickly, and after only a short while longer, it is pretty much clear if he knows what he is doing or not. If yes, it can make a huge difference in the ensemble playing experience. If not, then it can be a very major pain in the ass and immensely frustrating. Musicians most of the time don't even need to "test" conductors - it often shows very quickly if they are good or not.

Quote from: knight on July 25, 2007, 12:16:12 PM
I saw Abbado given a very hard time by his brass players of the LSO. The off-stage guys went to the pub part way through a rehearsal, there was quite a fuss about that one.

That is grossly unprofessional. Whatever musicians think of a particular conductor (and Abbado is usually well liked by most musicians that I know), walking off is a completely different thing. They get paid to be there and play. There are plenty of musicians around London, especially for extra jobs like this. In a case like this, the musicians should not get rehired for other jobs, or written up and warned if they are employed by the orchestra.

Quote from: M forever on July 25, 2007, 03:38:05 PM
...Musicians most of the time don't even need to "test" conductors - it often shows very quickly if they are good or not.

Indeed.  It usually takes about half a minute for us to find out whether the man with the stick knows his stuff.

What can be very very frustrating, though, is when a conductor obviously knows his music and has good ideas about it, but his/her stick or hand technique is not up to the challenges!  I've worked with such, both old and young.  And, as M and others have pointed out, if an orchestra player screws up or has insufficient technique, everybody knows who to blame--but if a conductor's technique is bad, too often he blames the orchestra.  Sometimes I've nearly asked, "Shall we follow your beat, or do what you've said?" :-X

And if a conductor tries to conduct me when I'm playing a solo passage, I just ignore him. ;D

Abbado was always well respected and I don't know why that Lohengrin concert caused problems with the brass. I do recall they were indeed bought in for the concert, the full normal brass compliment remained on the platform. I well remember Abbado's suppressed fury. He was not one to just let go and display his anger, but before the concert itself some of the orchestra said a few things to us and there had been real trouble about the incidence. I certainly experienced a number of concerts with the hit and miss kind of conductors, some almost disasters and others quite memorable. But of course, we all preferred to be working with people who knew how to get what they wanted.

Mike

Quote from: jochanaan on July 25, 2007, 09:47:36 PM
What can be very very frustrating, though, is when a conductor obviously knows his music and has good ideas about it, but his/her stick or hand technique is not up to the challenges!  I've worked with such, both old and young.

Yes, that's too bad, but there is nothing one can do about that. I may have great ideas about certain trumpet pieces, too, unfortunately though, I can't play the trumpet, so I don't try to. What some conductors do is really just as ridiculous as if someone took an instrument he can't play and started scratching or blowing around wildly and randomly. Only that that is immediately obvious as idiotic to everybody, while a lot of basically totally incompetent conductors are allowed to get away with way too much.

Quote from: jochanaan on July 25, 2007, 09:47:36 PM
And, as M and others have pointed out, if an orchestra player screws up or has insufficient technique, everybody knows who to blame--but if a conductor's technique is bad, too often he blames the orchestra.  Sometimes I've nearly asked, "Shall we follow your beat, or do what you've said?" :-X

I have actually said that a few times. I guess that doesn't surprise you... 0:)

One should always try to cooperate with the conductor, but sometimes, it's just not possible and the problems aren't a matter of different views about the music or something like that - that doesn't really matter anyway, because an important part of the craft of the orchestral musician is to be able to grasp and realize many different concepts, after all, if everybody did what they wanted, there would be no ensemble play - it is simply that the man with the stick does not belong in front of an orchestra.

I have never really been in a situation in which orchestral musicians were malicious, with most conductors, they play better than he conducts, but sometimes, it is just too much. Some basically OK conductors are also intolerable because they have mental problems and insecurities which they try to take out on the orchestra. I witnessed an amazing scene once in the Staatskapelle Weimar when the MD, Hans Peter Frank (who was widely called "Hackepeter" instead of Hans Peter, hacken means the same in German as "to hack", and "Hackepeter" means minced meat... ;D ) who was not such a bad conductor when he pulled himself together but also had a very massive maestro complex, started picking on the bass section and made some unprofessional and unfriendly remarks. The musicians had been used to just say nothing and overlook such remarks during Eastern Block times because he was "well connected" with communist party officials, but this was after the reunification and some had just had enough and were ready to try the new freedom. So the principal bass told him "you don't talk to us like that, if you have something to criticize, tell us in musical terms and we will improve it". What followed was highly interesting. Frank just stared at him in disbelief, gasped a few times but couldn't find any words, turned red in the face and collapsed on the podium...he was carried out with the whole orchestra looking on in amazed silence. The rehearsal was interrupted and someone sent over to the music academy (which is 5 minutes away) to  get the conducting professor who was a good professional "Kapellmeister" (and that is actually unusual for conducting professors at music academies since they often end up with the failed maestros). He took the program over and it was actually much better than most of the concerts with Frank (IIRC, that was DSCH10).

I find watching videos of orchestral works really fascinating. There's so much variety of attitudes, podium behaviour and display of baton(less) technique. It's amazing to see different conductors doing the same piece in different ways.

I was a bit puzzled by Dudamel conducting Mahler 3 at La Scala (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUUFi0nhv3w). It seems like he's reacting to the music instead of conducting it. Or maybe I just pay too much attention to his face, and I can't interpret the hand language anyways :-\.

Although the 5th movement is much less of a showpiece, Haitink in Berlin  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcxFUh3RUeY&mode=related&search=)give a totally different portrait of a conductor at work in this same symphony (not many conductor shots, though. I guess Haitink is less interesting to watch than Dudamel...)   For Haitink in more demonstrative stuff, there's also this Berin rite of Spring (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqWpwYpwdNI) which I find very interesting.

I remember a neighbour, a clarinet player in the Philharmonia in the 1970s, saying to me once: "We don't mind who conducts us as long as it isn't Menuhin".

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 26, 2007, 05:51:50 AM


I was a bit puzzled by Dudamel conducting Mahler 3 at La Scala (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUUFi0nhv3w). It seems like he's reacting to the music instead of conducting it. Or maybe I just pay too much attention to his face, and I can't interpret the hand language anyways :-\.

For the exactly opposite i.e. conductor actually giving instructions and cues in advance (as it should be)

Mravinsky / Leningrad / Shostakovich 5th, IV & II movements

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0iqZbM1Pdc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0iqZbM1Pdc)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCTsAxr7BlU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCTsAxr7BlU)

The finale tempo is way over- what's he trying to do, make a ironically bombastic piece genuinely bombastic? The scherzo's about right but still affected by the period's anxiousness and misses the architectural intrigue and placing, and the absolutely blatant formal insistencies, and misguided woodwind flurries taken only as flurries, make me want to switch off before the end. Another conductor with a pre-given idea of a work not issuing from what it's saying.

Sean - are you consciously tring to look ridiculous, or does that come naturally to you without thinking about it? Mravinsky lived through the same times in the same place and same environment as DSCH did, he premiered this 5th symphony (as well as several others) and worked together very closely with DSCH for many years. DSCH saw him as the conductor who really understood his music and could bring it to life. Mravinsky did not make ostentatious musical gestures, his music making was always concentrated, to the point, essential. Mravinsky knew much better than you ever will what this music is about. The one with pre-given ideas (and really stupid ones at that) here is you. You should just shut up, listen and learn.

I'll check out a few other Youtube vids when I get time. It's easier if you just agree with me though, you know you want to...

Quote from: M forever on July 26, 2007, 12:27:40 AM
I have actually said that a few times. I guess that doesn't surprise you... 0:)

Not a bit. ;D

Another conductor with surgically precise stick technique and utter absence of histrionics is Markevitch

Liebestod / ORTF / Markevitch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hompneV2QX4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hompneV2QX4)

Quote from: Harry CollierAt around the same 10 year period, the LSO downed bows and reeds and went on strike for one conductor; I THINK (50 years on) my father said it was Bernard Herrrman (an American from Hollywood).

Yes, he wasn't ever a LSO Prinicipal Conductor, but I guess that was for a recording, a fair few London musicians suffered through his failed conducting career...of course, this is Bernard Herrmann, the well-known composer for the Hitchcock films, who was dead set on being a famous classical conductor, but he was just too crochety and ill-tempered to succeed here. He did make some recordings on Phase 4 with the LPO, which are...interesting, to say the least.

Quote from: M foreverSome basically OK conductors are also intolerable because they have mental problems and insecurities which they try to take out on the orchestra.

No kidding. My director for much of college, he was actually a decent guy at heart who cared about his students, and had excellent baton technique, but on the podium it was like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, yelling, screaming, temper tantrums, he loved to humiliate players or sections in front of their peers. Some just do not get that players do not play better out of fear and anger. To some extent, it can be a motivator, to come in knowing your parts and to be alert, but to get to that next level of music-making, it can be a huge detriment. For several years, we day-to-day experienced this poisonous, damaging atmosphere, that could really wreak havoc, temporarily, with one's self esteem. He liked to say we weren't trying hard enough, but really we were just disgusted at some point. Going into rehearsal cringing is not a good way to exist. One year, we lost a very good oboe player, a sweet girl who just didn't want to be subjected to this kind of thing (she wasn't a music major anyway), he couldn't convince her to stay, and realized in a way his folly. His last year he became a little more rational, and as culmination of his tenure we gave a really fantastic concert under him at a high profile convention, but listening to it now, there's still something that is lacking, he was more technically outstanding than emotionally. Highly respected for interesting programming and the detail he brought to his performances, but ego, whoo boy.

Good experiences: We really enjoyed playing under our very young assistant director, he could respectfully tell the band what he wanted and was a total livewire on the podium, great technique and this boundless joy that made for an exciting, enjoyable performance. My high school director, was totally not a livewire on the podium and he could be strict sure, but always so respectful and he had an unbelievevable rapport with us, we felt like he was a second father. He taught us a lot about the music we played, the composers and their lives, and life in general.

In All-Region band (the best students from a large area of schools are chosen by audition) we got to work with two composers who had been called in to conduct us in their own music, which was very interesting. One year was Martin Mailman, a little old guy with white tufty hair and requisite turtleneck, prof. from North Texas, we did a freely atonal introspective piece of his that was very good, even if it flew over our heads. We had no clue, for much of the time, what he was conducting. He told us he rarely conducted and only his music, therefore we kind of discovered at breaks that none of us were really watching him because we just could not tell where his beat was. We did an amazing Howard Hanson piece, that came off because you feel the band playing together and communicating rather than being led, a unique experience.

One year we had the composer David Holsinger, really memorable. He looks a little Santa Claus-ish, a tiny guy that just lights up on the podium. He was fantastic in every sense of the word, endlessly quotable and inspirational, we could've listened to him talk for hours. His technique was wonderfully clear, and full of emotion too, one time he even got so worked up he stabbed his shiny prominent cranium with his baton and ended up with a head wound we had to alert him of! When a composer can personally tell you what he had in mind behind the pieces and how it should sound, what it should evoke, that is priceless. One of the pieces we played was called "Fanfare for the Uncommon Man" and was dedicated to the longtime director at our local college who passed away, who had been a dear friend of his. He almost got choked up telling us of this man, and when we played this piece, at the last note much of the ensemble did not have dry eyes. That was very, very special.

In college, for a conducting master class we had Craig Kirchhoff, an outstanding conductor who really showed how *little* you sometimes have to do to give the band all it needs to know. A friend, a super trumpet player and musician, was up there doing Grainger's "Irish Tune from County Derry" (which is O Danny Boy, orchestrated for wind band), which has this amazing slow climax, and everything was in its place, but he had no facial expression, it just didn't take off. Kirchoff took the baton and said, "Look, it's all in the face", he got up there, gave us the downbeat and then never used his hands again, he conducted most of the piece using only his face and eyes, cueing and signaling soft, loud, it was really something. There was a lot more music-making going on there and the climax was overwhelming. We also once had Frank Battisti for a guest conductor, he has written a textbook on conducting that is widely used and is now old and frail, he could only sit on a stool to conduct. He had these wise laser-sharp eyes and could hear the slightest of tuning problems, his age limited his movements but he always had complete control.

I also think the amount of respect has a lot to do with how well an orchestra or band plays for their conductor, the ones that treat the players with respect and are known to be outstanding musicians, I could feel us give our all to - when that respect is lost or they are unsure of themselves, some of the magic just isn't there.

Greta, who are you quoting in your above posts  ???

Quote from: uffeviking on July 29, 2007, 07:48:13 AM
Greta, who are you quoting in your above posts  ???

I ain't Greta but do believe that first quote is from Harry Collier and second from M forever.

But here is one video clip especially for you, Lis. Your favorite conductor in action. 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5yc3yRjEe4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5yc3yRjEe4)

Thank you Drasko! How considerate of you.  :-*

Yes, they are digging up the old black and white 'pirate' recordings and issuing them as DVDs. I have three of them and two more on pre-order. It's interesting because I already have the same concerts on those old b/w 'pirates' CDs; nice to see him in action!  ;D

Fixed. :) There are some great Celibidache clips online...I know Lis would have the first, I would love to get it.

Rehearsing Till Eulenspiegel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1LK6la5THA)

Rehearsaing Prokofiev 1st with Munich Phil (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRsdH68ycOE) (Is this from a DVD?)

And a very young Celibidache with the Berlin Phil in wartime (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY6Fg5LPWng&NR=1)

Greta: Already have on DVD Celi's Till Eulenspiegel, rehearsal and performance; Bruckner's 9th and his Mass in F; also Berlioz Symphonie fantastique.

On preorder are Mozart's Symphony No. 2 and 39, plus Prokofiev's Symphony No. 5.

Fascinating to compare conducting by Boulez with Celibidache, to name just two I have watched lately.

A few days ago the Wall Street Journal carried a review of a book called Corresponding With Carlos by Charles Barber.

The author was a pen-friend of Carlos Kleiber, and the book attempts to explain the conductor's eccentricities by looking at their exchange of letters throughout the years.

The reviewer does not agree:

Quote"The need for a biography is obvious, but this first attempt—"Corresponding With Carlos"—is a curate's egg, a book of two unequal halves. Charles Barber, conductor and artistic director at City Opera Vancouver, became Kleiber's pen-friend in the late 1980s...The biographical half of his book is hard-going, a trudge through lumpen text that often lacks cohesion."

Later:

Quote"Mr. Barber's biographical narrative, blurring as much as it clarifies, is casually strewn with avoidable errors...However, once the book turns from biographical sketch to lively correspondence, we get the thrill of reading—hearing—the voice of Carlos Kleiber, and all is light.

English was Kleiber's native tongue, and he was never one for idle chat. In rehearsal, he said little to the players, leaving corrective "Kleibergrams" during coffee breaks on their desks. He apologizes in the letters to Mr. Barber for an "obnoxious sense of humour" and criticizes one of his own videos in which the Concertgebouw players "were so stolid and uninterested and . . . my hair was flying every which way (I had forgotten the hairspray, the most important thing for a conductor right after knowing how to tie your own bow-tie, having shirts the right size and wearing braces that don't shrink)."

He was enthralled by the ungainly Klaus Tennstedt on television, " 'cause he looked helpless and unpretentious and the orchestra . . . played for their lives!" He could be engagingly rude, deciding that "Boulez's poker face implies that the silly noise [he was conducting Varèse] neither surprises nor bothers him. Determined professionalism. It's a job, you see." He tells Mr. Barber that he is "never very rattled by Simon" (Rattle) and refers airily to Chicago's "Sir Salty" (Sir Georg Solti)."

See:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204553904577102761271195198.html?KEYWORDS=Kleiber#articleTabs%3Darticle (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204553904577102761271195198.html?KEYWORDS=Kleiber#articleTabs%3Darticle)

"Kleibergrams": love it!

   It's fascinating and perplexing  the way different orchestras react differently to the same conductor.  One orchestra may hate his guts
and can't stand playing under him,while  another just adores him (or her) and loves  playing under him .
   For example , Christoph Eschenbach and the Houston symphony had a great relationship , and  the orchestra flourished under him .
But when he was chosen to succeed Sawalisch with the Philadelphia orchestra ,  the Philly musicians  just didn't have the same chemistry
with him , and  his contract was not renewed , and he  stepped down after only a few years .  They didn't hate him ,  but  the marriage just didn't work out .

Two conductors I'm very impressed with right now are Edward Gardner and Ilan Volkov. I think both of these conductors have a bright future ahead of them.

Quote from: Superhorn on December 29, 2011, 04:12:56 PM
   It's fascinating and perplexing  the way different orchestras react differently to the same conductor.  One orchestra may hate his guts
and can't stand playing under him,while  another just adores him (or her) and loves  playing under him .
   For example , Christoph Eschenbach and the Houston symphony had a great relationship , and  the orchestra flourished under him .
But when he was chosen to succeed Sawalisch with the Philadelphia orchestra ,  the Philly musicians  just didn't have the same chemistry
with him , and  his contract was not renewed , and he  stepped down after only a few years .  They didn't hate him ,  but  the marriage just didn't work out .

Jean Martinon at Chicago comes to mind: some of the conflicts were not his fault, according to some sources.  One writer says both he and Rafael Kubelik were chased out of Chicago for programming too much contemporary music.

See:

http://www.classicalstore.com/store/product/jean-martinon-jean-martinon-conducts-ravel (http://www.classicalstore.com/store/product/jean-martinon-jean-martinon-conducts-ravel)

Quote from: Cato on December 29, 2011, 06:48:09 PM
Jean Martinon at Chicago comes to mind: some of the conflicts were not his fault, according to some sources.  One writer says both he and Rafael Kubelik were chased out of Chicago for programming too much contemporary music.

See:

http://www.classicalstore.com/store/product/jean-martinon-jean-martinon-conducts-ravel (http://www.classicalstore.com/store/product/jean-martinon-jean-martinon-conducts-ravel)

I guess that refers to Chicago-based arts critic Claudia "acidy" Cassidy.

Related to that affair, I ran across this interesting post at http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.music.classical.recordings/2006-04/msg02176.html

Quote[...]While she did in effect run Desire Defauw and Kubelik out of town as
conductors of the CSO, she didn't with Martinon. I lived through that
episode and have learned things since. There were other factors.

Claudia (I knew her, and she asked me to call her that) turned on
Martinon abruptly in (I think) 1966 and began to savage him in her
reviews after having been favorable toward him. The reasons were
personal, not musical, and were, as Tom said, vindictive. Disgraceful.
In any case, Chicagoans reacted to her third anti-conductor campaign
with fury. They sensed it happening yet again. CSO audience members
printed flyers attacking her and distributed them outside Orchestra
Hall before concerts. Others picketed Tribune Tower, the paper's
headquarters. Finally the Tribune exercised their option had forced her
into retirement (she was past 65). All of that happened around 1967,
before Martinon left the CSO in 1968, so she was out of the picture
when the time for renewal of Martinon's contract came up early that
year. The CSO board was indeed responsible for Martinon's departure
from Chicago, but not because they believed or bowed to Claudia
Cassidy. The story, as I've heard it from people in a position to know,
is even more amazing and stupid.

People on the board somehow got it into their heads that they could
hire Karajan to be the CSO's next music director. Karajan was then at
the peak of his career and power, and the idea that he would abandon
Europe for weeks at a time to conduct in Chicago was one that only
naive business magnates and dilettantes such as run American symphony
orchestra boards could entertain. Nevertheless, they went ahead with it
and started trying to woo him. After tantalizing the CSO amateurs for a
while, Karajan predictably said no.

When that happened, the CSO offered Martinon a new contract. The
music world being what it is, he had heard about the behind-his-back
Karajan discussions from the beginning. He turned the contract renewal
down and told a friend of mine who knew him well "I would have signed a
new contract except for that" (the Karajan business).

Finally -- regarding another message in this thread -- it's true that
Martinon had troubled relations with some CSO members because he tried
to "teach" them things. However, the problems arose with first-chair
players, winds in particular. According to what I have been told,
Martinon insisted upon "instructing" them how to phrase and play their
solo passages. That's not customary at all. Stokowski, Toscanini, and
Bruno Walter, among others, gave their first-chair players freedom and
didn't dictate how every note should be played. Even the martinet
Reiner did. So some CSO members resented Martinon. There was the huge
blow-up with principal oboist Ray Still around 1966, but this message
is already long enough![...]

I have been listening to the conductors of a golden age of composers doing Richard Strauss.  Wow.  Knappertsbusch doing the venereable Tod und Verklärung is a real ear opener.  Reiners Till Eulenspiegel is both compelling and beautiful.  I have listened to a few other pieces too.  Toscanini, Walter, Celibidache (a maniac in his early days)...et al...These bloody things are better than the much of what todays best conductors can offer.  By all the Gods, if we had the recording equipment back then to record as today, these old conductors would still be bestsellers.  And we would all be utterly staggered.    :o

EDIT:  It was Knappertsbusch doing the venereable Tod und Verklärung that made me splurge this..!

   John , I guarantee you that 40 or 50 years from now,  classical music fans and critics will be saying the very same about today's leading conductors .  They will sigh, oh where are the Dudamels,  Alan Gilberts, Abbados, Mutis, Barenboims,  Gergievs, Rattles, of the present
day ? The old maestros did it so much better .  Plus ca change .  .  .  .  .  .  .

QuoteFinally -- regarding another message in this thread -- it's true that
Martinon had troubled relations with some CSO members because he tried
to "teach" them things. However, the problems arose with first-chair
players, winds in particular. According to what I have been told,
Martinon insisted upon "instructing" them how to phrase and play their
solo passages. That's not customary at all. Stokowski, Toscanini, and
Bruno Walter, among others, gave their first-chair players freedom and
didn't dictate how every note should be played. Even the martinet
Reiner did.

This is something I've wondered about. Trying to "tell them how to play" during the full rehearsal will naturally cause unhappiness in the orchestra (there are a few legendary stories doing the rounds). I assumed, it making the most sense to me, that before a rehearsal the conductor "does the rounds" with all the first chairs and soloists, and works out these things beforehand. I've been getting into Rattle's recording of Mahler 3 lately, and I can't believe that amazing scooping oboe sound in the 4th mvt occurred without careful private discussion.

Quote from: James on January 02, 2012, 06:43:26 AM
"In the future, the sound projectionist will be more important than the "conductor", because he decides how it will sound for the listener in the hall."

Sounds like the raves I used to go to.

Quote from: James on January 04, 2012, 03:03:23 AM
It's nothing like that tho .. it's A LOT more 'involved'.

::)

Quote from: James on January 05, 2012, 03:06:08 AM
Knowledge is power! Educate yourself on this .. then you will understand.

To know James..... you must become James.

Quote from: eyeresist on January 03, 2012, 11:35:42 PM
This is something I've wondered about. Trying to "tell them how to play" during the full rehearsal will naturally cause unhappiness in the orchestra (there are a few legendary stories doing the rounds). I assumed, it making the most sense to me, that before a rehearsal the conductor "does the rounds" with all the first chairs and soloists, and works out these things beforehand. I've been getting into Rattle's recording of Mahler 3 lately, and I can't believe that amazing scooping oboe sound in the 4th mvt occurred without careful private discussion.



Sounds like the raves I used to go to.

Berthold Goldschmidt introduced that effect in the alto solo movement of the 3rd symphony. Apparently the score has an ambiguous indication at that point, something that translates as 'pulling up'. That Goldschmidt performance (LSO ca. 1960) is available on The Metrognome website. It is rather extraordinary, although in very variable,sound. Apparently Rattle was familiar with it and believes this is the true way to play that oboe solo.

My collection of recorded music is well represented by the great Hungarian conductors: Fritz Reiner, George Széll, Eugene Ormándy,  Antal Doráti, and Georg Solti. In the early days of the LP, I especially liked Reiner (RCA) and Dorati (Mercury). This was my first real exposure to great music.

JS

Quote from: Scots John on July 16, 2012, 04:28:00 PMThere are a hoard of others, Fricsay, the Dohnányis, the Fischers, Nikisch, and my own most celebrated, the brilliant Rafael Kubelik. Aye. Viva Hungary!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/Rafael_Kubel%C3%ADk.jpg)

You there! Stop where you are, put down OUR Kubelik and Czech your facts, mate! >:(

Quote from: Rinaldo on July 16, 2012, 06:30:45 PM
You there! Stop where you are, put down OUR Kubelik and Czech your facts, mate! >:(

Oh dear, I don't know how the f*$£ I did that, how very odd and monstrously unforgivable.  Of course I know Kubelik is Czech, but somehow in the writing I got my wires crossed in a most baffling way, and I am suitably stupified by the experience.  Apologies.  No Kubelik doppleganger has existed in Hungary, and what made me include him as a Hungarian when I know like night and day he isn't is as mysterious as yellow wind.  One of those things...too much of this, maybe...
(http://www.glenmorangie.com/static/images/whiskies/products/large/the-original-bottle.jpg)

And the great Czech...

Sir,

Quote from: Scots John on July 17, 2012, 04:36:37 PM(http://www.glenmorangie.com/static/images/whiskies/products/large/the-original-bottle.jpg)

you are pardoned. Sláinte!

Thank you for the forgiveness Rinaldo.  Such an error is intolerable for even me to read, and I would consider the poster (if it wasn't me) to be substantially less than a bona fide Classical Music lover and most definitely in the wrong forum. 
It is likely I was listening to Kubelik doing Bruckner 3 (BRSO 27.9.1982) when I was writing about Hungarian conductors, and completely got swept away in a rare sea of Glenmorangie.  I keep listening to that Bruckner 3.  It is the best reading of that symphony I have ever heard.

Quote from: Scots John on July 19, 2012, 07:07:08 AM
Thank you for the forgiveness Rinaldo.  Such an error is intolerable for even me to read, and I would consider the poster (if it wasn't me) to be substantially less than a bona fide Classical Music lover and most definitely in the wrong forum. 
It is likely I was listening to Kubelik doing Bruckner 3 (BRSO 27.9.1982) when I was writing about Hungarian conductors, and completely got swept away in a rare sea of Glenmorangie.  I keep listening to that Bruckner 3.  It is the best reading of that symphony I have ever heard.

Kubelik is terrific in Bruckner. :) In the kind of Bruckner I like anyway, sometimes here referred to as "light" Bruckner... 8)

Q

Quote from: Que on July 21, 2012, 06:35:47 AM
Kubelik is terrific in Bruckner. :) In the kind of Bruckner I like anyway, sometimes here referred to as "light" Bruckner... 8)

Q

Absolutely, and all the better for it. His 4th is a gem too.

The passionate ones, their larger than life Egos. Gone, dried up, like letters, from his mistress lover Ada Mainardi. Letters which Arturo Toscanini kept in his trouser-pocket and which contained a handkerchief which she regularly sent to him...freshly stained with her menstrual blood. "I long to finger every sensible and hidden doted spot of you. I will pass all over you like a river of fire..." Toscanini and his baton, tearing the score in half, kicking the stand...a swelling wave of music to bring tears to the hardened heart. Where is their marred genius? Where are the geniuses? The conductor of all time, Arturo Toscanini accosted just before a concert by a frantic clarinetist whose E natural key had broken: "It's all right," Toscanini declared after a moment's thought. "You don't have an E natural tonight." A "moment's thought" to consider an entire orchestral score. "When I retire, I open a bordello," he cried. "You know what that is? Or are you all castrati? I will attract the most beautiful women in the world" this conductor has given way to that of the celebrity composer. Where have the crazed awesome men gone? The religious prophet Furtwangler, the showboater Karajan...Walter, Klemperer, Stokowski, Reiner, Munch, Solti, Mengelberg, Ansermet...no one has taken up their mantle. And we risk loss; those names are likely Lovecraftian gibberish to most souls nowadays.

Where is the perfectly groomed hair, falling into a volcano cascade? The fearsome temper, the lame swagger, freshly pressed tails, Gestapo-like organization, the odd duck?? Rodzinski, who always carried a loaded pistol in his pocket, or Szell, who told the cleaning ladies at Severance Hall what brand of toilet paper to stock...? And now to enter the hall of the Maestro. Yes, the composers, they are the Alpha, creators, but the conductors are oracles--marvelously creating through interpretation, another beautifully obfuscating glass comb through which the music is drawn through. Sometimes I think I love them more than anything else. The celebrity conductor is a dying breed, I regrettably cannot think of any alive today that one could truly call 'Maestro'.

Those were such different times, Leo. If some of these conductors working today acted the way say Bernstein or Reiner did, then there's no doubt that they would be finding employment elsewhere. Orchestra musicians just aren't going to put up with these conductors' crudeness anymore. This reminds me of what happened to Yoel Levi (former principal conductor of the Atlanta SO), I heard stories of him being incredibly rude and even after his long tenure he still wouldn't recognize the musicians and call them by their names. He would say "Okay, you there, second violin, what's your question?" In these delicate, financially-strained times for orchestras, conductors' jobs, like the orchestra musicians, are constantly on the line.

Well, in my mind, I see it as not so much a longing for the conductors themselves as for the times that allowed them to create themselves. So John's post is right on in its main point, but it might miss the point that it is the cultural shift itself that is being decried. I know that I miss the values and cultural standards of the times that I was brought up in, but surely every generation says the same thing? The Cult of the Conductor was a manifestation of 19th century times being carried over for as long as they could be sustained. Pretty much all of the guys that Leo mentions are born in the late 19th century or very early 20th century at latest. Cultural shifts, while important in and of themselves, bring  a negative for every 5 positives. In this case, the shifting importance of classical music along with the importance of the individual's self-esteem has put the Conducting Icon on the shelf. For now....

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2013, 08:03:27 AM
Well, in my mind, I see it as not so much a longing for the conductors themselves as for the times that allowed them to create themselves. So John's post is right on in its main point, but it might miss the point that it is the cultural shift itself that is being decried. I know that I miss the values and cultural standards of the times that I was brought up in, but surely every generation says the same thing? The Cult of the Conductor was a manifestation of 19th century times being carried over for as long as they could be sustained. Pretty much all of the guys that Leo mentions are born in the late 19th century or very early 20th century at latest. Cultural shifts, while important in and of themselves, bring  a negative for every 5 positives. In this case, the shifting importance of classical music along with the importance of the individual's self-esteem has put the Conducting Icon on the shelf. For now....

8)

Yes, a "longing for the times that allowed them to create themselves" is what I feel, yet, as John says regarding different times, I suppose I'm looking at the past through rose-colored glasses. I didn't live those years or perform under those old school guys. ;D Often there are times I focus on what is lost rather than the wonderful positives that arrive with a new culteral shift, as I am just as captured for our historical-critical era. It's a two edged sword, but the spice of life too.

Arturo Tamayo

*bump*

It is delightful to find such a great thread hiding in the dark corners of GMG!  I came across a "book (http://www.morethanthenotes.com/read-the-book/authors-note)" by Arthur Bloomfield that I found interesting (and which most likely has been posted elsewhere)! It definitely captured my attention in terms of knowing more about the more or less famous conductors we are exposed to in the historical recordings we enjoy.

Check it out at More Than Notes (http://www.morethanthenotes.com/read-the-book/authors-note)!

(http://cdn.sinfinimusic.com/assets/2015041401/media/4463038/collage-of-conductors-898x443.jpg)

Quote from: Moonfish on April 22, 2015, 11:07:47 AM
*bump*

It is delightful to find such a great thread hiding in the dark corners of GMG!  I came across a "book (http://www.morethanthenotes.com/read-the-book/authors-note)" by Arthur Bloomfield that I found interesting (and which most likely has been posted elsewhere)! It definitely captured my attention in terms of knowing more about the more or less famous conductors we are exposed to in the historical recordings we enjoy.

Check it out at More Than Notes (http://www.morethanthenotes.com/read-the-book/authors-note)!

(http://cdn.sinfinimusic.com/assets/2015041401/media/4463038/collage-of-conductors-898x443.jpg)

Cool site, do you know if there will be more additions of later conductors? Thanks.

Quote from: Carnivorous Sheep on May 04, 2015, 02:05:52 PM
Cool site, do you know if there will be more additions of later conductors? Thanks.

I don't know. You can e-mail the author if you wish (chumbo@earthlink.net). I'm not sure if the address is still working.  :-\

Sad news: George Prêtre passed away.  He was much admired worldwide.
It seems that since the beginning of 2016, death has been taking a special interest in musicians.

Quote from: Spineur on January 04, 2017, 11:38:23 PM
Sad news: George Prêtre passed away.  He was much admired worldwide.
It seems that since the beginning of 2016, death has been taking a special interest in musicians.

Just read it elsewhere. Sad to hear, haven't started exploring his Icon box, but love some of his opera recordings.

I have ordered his recording of Traviata with Caballe to celebrate his life. It has cost me less than £2.00! I have a fair few of his recordings with Callas including a very fine disc of French arias. The earliest recording I noticed was 1962, a recital with the mezzo Rita Gorr, another very worthwhile disc as long as you can accept Delilah in full-on, knock down, drag-out mood, rather than being seductive. She suits the other roles rather better.

Mike

Bump

I have been thinking recently of conductors who I like most now vs decades ago.

Then:
Cantelli
Klemperer
Szell
Karajan


Now
Cantelli
Abbado
Silvestri
Chailly
Karajan

I have no Szell now, but I think he'd hold his own. The big newcomer is Abbado, who is my conductor of choice the last couple of years.

And whatever happened to James Loughran, who made a top notch Brahms cycle with a second tier orchestra?

Quote from: Ken B on April 08, 2017, 03:01:39 PM
Bump

I have been thinking recently of conductors who I like most now vs decades ago.

Then:
Cantelli
Klemperer
Szell
Karajan


Now
Cantelli
Abbado
Silvestri
Chailly
Karajan

I'm absolutely devastated to see Szell and Klemp demoted...for the likes of Abbado. What were you thinking, Ken?  :o

;D :D ;D

Seriously, though, I can't think of a single Abbado recording I'd rank first before any other (Mrs. Rock is a great admirer of his MacBeth but I prefer Sinopoli). He disappoints on so many levels, especially Mahler. Okay, maybe his collaborations with Pogorelich (Chopin, Tchaikovsky) are pretty good, but I think Pogo dominates those performances.

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2017, 12:44:08 PM
I'm absolutely devastated to see Szell and Klemp demoted...for the likes of Abaddo. What were you thinking, Ken?  :o

;D :D ;D

Seriously, though, I can't think of a single Abbado recording I'd rank first before any other (Mrs. Rock is a great admirer of his MacBeth but I prefer Sinopoli). He disappoints on so many levels, especially Mahler. Okay, maybe his collaborations with Pogorelich (Chopin, Tchaikovsky) are pretty good, but I think Pogo dominates those performances.

Sarge

I never thought much of him when younger, but his DG symphony box just blew me away, as did his Mozart recordings with Orchestra Mozart. I'd call the approach HIPI -- HIP Informed  :laugh: but modern instruments.

Maybe it helps I've never seen a recording by him of that sea thing by Debussy.

I forgot Bohm! He was one of my main guys, I definitely preferred him to Karajan. He has slipped for sure.
(I think Szell would hold his own still.)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61QZTy-ZiFL._SY445_.jpg)

Quote from: Mahlerian on April 12, 2017, 03:34:19 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61QZTy-ZiFL._SY445_.jpg)

My eyes! My eyes!

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Yannick Nézet-Séguin to start his Met tenure 2 years ahead of schedule (i.e.: this year instead of 2020). Will add Pelléas et Mélisande and Dialogues des Carmélites on top of the already scheduled Traviata.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/nezet-seguin-met-early-1.4536852 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/nezet-seguin-met-early-1.4536852)

The Vienna Symphony Names Its New Chief Conductor
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F03%2FOROZCO-ESTRADA_Portrait_c_Martin-Sigmund__Jens-f-Laurson_Sound-Advice_Classical-Critic_Forbes.jpg)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/29/the-vienna-symphony-names-its-new-chief-conductor/#2c76f8bf2cdf (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/29/the-vienna-symphony-names-its-new-chief-conductor/#2c76f8bf2cdf)

QuoteThe Vienna Symphony Orchestra has announced today that the successor to Philippe Jordan will be Columbian-born Andrés Orozco-Estrada. He will officially start his tenure with the 2021/22 season while working closely with the orchestra in the 2020/21 season as the 'Chief Conductor Designate'. Philippe Jordan had recently been appointed the next music director of the Vienna State Opera (which had been struggling to fill that position) and just crosses the street to continue his steep career-path.

Andrés Orozco-Estrada has been living in Vienna for the last 20 years, making the connections necessary to work your way up in that unique city. In 2009 he had become the principal conductor of the Lower Austrian Tonkünstler Orchestra, ...

(Every click helps -- and every comment, correction, or criticisism is welcome)

Interesting, as ever.

. . . it's in quotes, so the quarrel is not with you but with the source  8) :

In "remarkable energy, electrifying conducting, and sheer ability to radiate the joy of music-making," that is poor placement (Puffery Alert) of the adjective sheer.  Ability to radiate the sheer joy of music-making would repair that.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on February 21, 2018, 04:56:43 AM
Latest on Forbes.com

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Valery Gergiev Stays In Munich, Extends Contract To 2025

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/02/21/valery-gergiev-stays-in-munich-extends-contract-to-2025/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/02/21/valery-gergiev-stays-in-munich-extends-contract-to-2025/#388e077e2222)

Literally every click counts to support continued arts coverage on Forbes.com

You know, I had a dream not too long ago that Valery Gergiev died, and in a passing thought I was actually feeling a little bit hopeful for Müncher Philharmoniker. I am sure he does wonderful work, but he is really not shining very brightly there compared to the other brilliant orchestra/conductor pairings in Munich with Jansons and Petrenko. I would be extremely sorry if Gergiev really does die any time soon, because I admire much of work elsewhere.

Curiously, I wonder who my favourite conductors are.........

I love Boulez.........
Pintscher
Mälkki
Knussen
Simone Young
Knappertsbusch
Keilberth
Carlos Kleiber
Jansons

And probably a few others.

Quote from: jessop on March 29, 2018, 05:19:39 AM
You know, I had a dream not too long ago that Valery Gergiev died, and in a passing thought I was actually feeling a little bit hopeful for Müncher Philharmoniker. I am sure he does wonderful work, but he is really not shining very brightly there compared to the other brilliant orchestra/conductor pairings in Munich with Jansons and Petrenko. I would be extremely sorry if Gergiev really does die any time soon, because I admire much of work elsewhere.

Curiously, I wonder who my favourite conductors are.........



And probably a few others.

Petrenko is unique; the BRSO is unique; the MPhil is trying too hard.
If I'm allowed to dream, the town would get Honeck.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 29, 2018, 04:06:38 AM

The Vienna Symphony Names Its New Chief Conductor
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F03%2FOROZCO-ESTRADA_Portrait_c_Martin-Sigmund__Jens-f-Laurson_Sound-Advice_Classical-Critic_Forbes.jpg)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/29/the-vienna-symphony-names-its-new-chief-conductor/#2c76f8bf2cdf (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/29/the-vienna-symphony-names-its-new-chief-conductor/#2c76f8bf2cdf)

(Every click helps -- and every comment, correction, or criticisism is welcome)

You may add another notoriously cranky critic, me, to the impression you have, based on what I heard of Orozco-Estrada's Berlioz Fantastique CD with the Tonkünstler:

"Ugh. This CD is impossible to review. It's not bad, so I can't tell you why I disliked it. It's not very good, either, so I can't tell you why I liked it. It's not even dull. It just sort of is. It exists, without any distinguishing characteristics you could use to discern this Symphonie fantastique from any other. ...even when I sat down with the express purpose of listening carefully for this review, my attention wandered and I read a book and sent an e-mail and didn't notice much."

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Aug13/Berlioz_symphonie_OC869.htm

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2017, 12:44:08 PM
I'm absolutely devastated to see Szell and Klemp demoted...for the likes of Abbado. What were you thinking, Ken?  :o

;D :D ;D

Seriously, though, I can't think of a single Abbado recording I'd rank first before any other (Mrs. Rock is a great admirer of his MacBeth but I prefer Sinopoli). He disappoints on so many levels, especially Mahler. Okay, maybe his collaborations with Pogorelich (Chopin, Tchaikovsky) are pretty good, but I think Pogo dominates those performances.

Sarge

Wow, finally someone shares my view of Abbado! I concede he made a few good recordings very early in his career, before he learned how to ruin things, like the first recording of the Ravel Concerto with Argerich. :)

Quote from: Brian on March 29, 2018, 06:11:29 AM
You may add another notoriously cranky critic, me, to the impression you have, based on what I heard of Orozco-Estrada's Berlioz Fantastique CD with the Tonkünstler:

"Ugh. This CD is impossible to review. It's not bad, so I can't tell you why I disliked it. It's not very good, either, so I can't tell you why I liked it. It's not even dull. It just sort of is. It exists, without any distinguishing characteristics you could use to discern this Symphonie fantastique from any other. ...even when I sat down with the express purpose of listening carefully for this review, my attention wandered and I read a book and sent an e-mail and didn't notice much."

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Aug13/Berlioz_symphonie_OC869.htm

Ha! I THOUGHT you had had written something along those lines about him... but then what I found were rather more positive takes on his Dvorak!

My favourites are all old and furthermore, dead:

Böhm
Keilberth
Boult
Barbirolli
Munch
Monteux
Karajan
Szell
Haitink - not dead yet, but getting there... ::)
Ormandy
Kelberth
Silvestri

Maybe Jochum and Klemperer, Kondrashin, Giulini...

All of them made recordings that are unsurpassed. None among the 30-50ish crowd comes close to them in stature.

Those that come to mind (some based on a great body, some based on limited exposure)

Ansermet
Barbirolli
van Beinem
Boulez
Chailly
Dorati
Haitink
Harnoncourt
Karajan
Maazel

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 29, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Petrenko is unique; the BRSO is unique; the MPhil is trying too hard.
If I'm allowed to dream, the town would get Honeck.

Yes, to the first line. I'm afraid I am not at all familiar with Honeck.

Quote from: André on March 29, 2018, 01:03:59 PMAll of them made recordings that are unsurpassed. None among the 30-50ish crowd comes close to them in stature.

In all fairness, the greats typically did not attain their stature when they were 30-50ish either.

Many of them did, IMO. As for the older ones (born pre-1900), the recording industry was still in its early stages, and orchestral standards were not what they became after the fifties. But I concede this is debatable.

Quote from: André on March 29, 2018, 04:47:06 PM
Many of them did, IMO. As for the older ones (born pre-1900), the recording industry was still in its early stages, and orchestral standards were not what they became after the fifties. But I concede this is debatable.

I don't think even most orchestras were up to today's standards until well into the 90s. A few exceptions I can think of would be the Cleveland Orchestra, who have been at an incredibly high standard for a long time, and possibly the Vienna Phil, who have barely improved since the 1960s and sound comparable to a second rate youth orchestra these days if they don't have a conductor willing to make the orchestra work hard.

Living favorites

(i.e. a conductor where i'd go into the concert for him, rather than the work... or at least never not want to go because of him.) That may include crap-shot conductors like Gatti (it happens not to include crapshoot conductor Gergiev (whom I would seek out to hear in special project but not on a general basis)

K.Petrenko, Honeck, Chailly, Haitink, Blomstedt

Dausgaard, Thielemann, Nelsons, Nezet-Seguin

Gatti, J.Paervi, O.Vanska, H.Holliger, E.z.Guttenberg Ed.; added: Dohnanyi, Salonen, Minkowski

Bychkov, Poschner, Yutaka Sado, Pletnev



...these off the top of my head; I could -- in fact will -- add more, I suppose.


Conductors to avoid at reasonable cost:

Mehta, Muti (except in very specific repertoire), Meister, Young, Znaider...

Does J. Paervi = P. Järvi ?

Of your list, only Haitink and Blomstedt would move me to buy tickets because of their very presence. Otherwise, the program would be my prime motivation  ;D.

Quote from: André on March 30, 2018, 05:14:26 AM
Does J. Paervi = P. Järvi ?

Of your list, only Haitink and Blomstedt would move me to buy tickets because of their very presence. Otherwise, the program would be my prime motivation  ;D.

To that I would add Chailly, Dausgaard, Honeck.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 30, 2018, 05:06:26 AMConductors to avoid at reasonable cost:

Mehta, Muti (except in very specific repertoire), Meister, Young, Znaider...

What about Franz Welser-Möst? I heard that at some circles at EMI his nick-name was "frankly, worst than most." :)

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 30, 2018, 11:51:31 PM
What about Franz Welser-Möst? I heard that at some circles at EMI his nick-name was "frankly, worst than most." :)

That was his nickname in London, generally. I'm not a fan of FWM, thinking him a "custodian of sound", but I do think he is a VERY fine opera conductor and as long as he has the best orchestras in the world at his disposal, his concerts are probably always worth seeking out. At his best he can be great, but his MO isn't such that I would put him in my top tier. Still, I would put him in the above-average category, not the "avoid" category. His Cunning Little Vixen in Vienna with the ClevO was ravishing: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/11/16/review-a-ravishing-cleveland-vixen-in-vienna/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/11/16/review-a-ravishing-cleveland-vixen-in-vienna/)

Honestly I don't think about conductors all that much but.....

In general:

Kondrashin
Harnoncourt
Cambreling
Holliger
Dohnányi (C.v.)
Norrington
Tamayo
Ormandy
van Nevel
Huggett

Repertoire-specific:

Salonen
Minkowski
Bour
Gielen
Stenz
Kna
Boulez
Jochum (E.)
Mälkki
Ančerl
Szell
Roth (F.-X.)
Brüggen
Furtwängler
Chailly
de Leeuw
Zender
Kubelík
Sawallisch
Leinsdorf

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 30, 2018, 11:51:31 PM
What about Franz Welser-Möst? I heard that at some circles at EMI his nick-name was "frankly, worst than most." :)

He received scathing reviews from the Cleveland Plain Dealer too after he became music director of the Cleveland O--until the newspaper owners silenced the critic (Donald Rosenberg). That said, I've never had a problem with his conducting. True, I've only heard him live twice (Haydn 101 and Bruckner 7 with the LPO; Mahler 5 in Cleveland) but both concerts were memorable, even thrilling. I also like the few recordings I have by him (especially his Bruckner 5, Korngold Symphony, and Schmidt Das Buch mit sieben Siegeln).

Sarge
 

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 30, 2018, 05:06:26 AM
Living favorites

(i.e. a conductor where i'd go into the concert for him, rather than the work...

Ivan Fischer, Kirill Petrenko, Manfred Honeck, William Christie.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2018, 12:33:44 PM
He received scathing reviews from the Cleveland Plain Dealer too after he became music director of the Cleveland O--until the newspaper owners silenced the critic (Donald Rosenberg). That said, I've never had a problem with his conducting. True, I've only heard him live twice (Haydn 101 and Bruckner 7 with the LPO; Mahler 5 in Cleveland) but both concerts were memorable, even thrilling. I also like the few recordings I have by him (especially his Bruckner 5, Korngold Symphony, and Schmidt Das Buch mit sieben Siegeln).

Sarge

His Mahler 4th is well worth a listen I think, very much on the slow side, but some nice detailing. ;)

My list for current active conductors to see live also begins with Ivan Fischer and Manfred Honeck, and also would include Riccardo Chailly, Vladimir Jurowski, Stephane Deneve, both Petrenkos, Salonen, Dausgaard, and Antoni Wit.

I have quite recently been in Chailly and Dausgaard performances. Chailly, possibly due to diary issues, sent the La Scala chorus master along to take the piano chorus rehearsal. He made sense and we changed what we were doing to suit what he requested. The following day we were in the hall for Chailly's orchestral rehearsal. We started off, Chailly is a really special musician, very clear and easy to follow. He had the La Scala guy with him at the podium. He changed just about everything that had been specified the previous day. It was clear that they had not conferred in advance. We were not going back to how we had earlier rehearsed it, Chailly wanted other different detailing, which we happily supplied and the performance went well.

There was a bit of amusement that despite the minimal effect of the La Scala guy, he had insisted on a dressing room to himself, which required a room to be emptied out of orchestra players.

Dausgaard had a lot of very interesting ideas, but had some problems getting them across to us and to the orchestra. He kept at it until he was satisfied and the performance was well received. I have very much enoyed his orchestral concerts.

My list of special conductors who I would travel to experience includes Chailly, Nelsons, Petrenko, Jordan, Bychkov, Nezet-Seguin, Jurowsky, Ed Gardiner, Sondergard and Mark Elder.

Mike

I guess from next year you can see Petrenko whenever you want on Berliner Philharmoniker's digital concert hall, but personally I'd love to see him live before he leaves Munich. Thankfully, I'll be there at the end of this year to see him conduct there. 8)

His concert performances there are almost always sold out; the beloved conductor that he is, his name alone attracts a massive audience wanting to see him perform. I can't think of many other conductors who have garnered that level of popularity in recent years.

One conductor who I have soured on is Barenboim. It seems that he always is adding some sort of twist of phrasing or tempo to the music which strikes me as totally inappropriate. At one point I held him in better regard, and consequently I find myself with a fair quantity of his recordings.

This doesn't apply to his piano performances, particularly the old ones.

Quote from: Draško on March 31, 2018, 01:01:04 PM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 30, 2018, 05:06:26 AM
Living favorites

(i.e. a conductor where i'd go into the concert for him, rather than the work...

Ivan Fischer, Kirill Petrenko, Manfred Honeck, William Christie.

One name I'd add is Dohnanyi. I thought he was retired, but no, still going strong. I've been listening to his relatively recent Bruckner 9th with Philharmonia, from Salzburg on Signum, and it's an absolutely superb performance. A big Dohnanyi box from Decca wouldn't be amiss.

Arturo Tamayo is one fantatic conductor I didn't mention earlier. Also, Cambreling is pretty good, but not one of my favourites.

Quote from: Draško on April 02, 2018, 02:08:51 AM
Ivan Fischer, Kirill Petrenko, Manfred Honeck, William Christie.


One name I'd add is Dohnanyi. I thought he was retired, but no, still going strong. I've been listening to his relatively recent Bruckner 9th with Philharmonia, from Salzburg on Signum, and it's an absolutely superb performance. A big Dohnanyi box from Decca wouldn't be amiss.

I agree -- in fact, I had amended my post to include him, even before you posted this (see above). I also agree re: Bruckner 9th. I was at that performance (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-9.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-9.html)) and I love the CD: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/02/23/classical-cd-of-the-week-bruckners-end-in-salzburg/#262d87fa1714 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/02/23/classical-cd-of-the-week-bruckners-end-in-salzburg/#262d87fa1714)

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 02, 2018, 02:35:56 AM
I agree -- in fact, I had amended my post to include him, even before you posted this (see above). I also agree re: Bruckner 9th. I was at that performance (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-9.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-9.html)) and I love the CD: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/02/23/classical-cd-of-the-week-bruckners-end-in-salzburg/#262d87fa1714 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/02/23/classical-cd-of-the-week-bruckners-end-in-salzburg/#262d87fa1714)

Would have loved to have been there. I agree with your review: wonderfully controlled performance, transparent and flowing. Love when trumpets, horns and wagner-tubas are clearly discernible in big brass tuttis, also lots of fine detail in quiet passages, wonderful horn in that Siegfried like passage post first climax in the adagio.   

Quote from: Draško on April 02, 2018, 02:08:51 AM
One name I'd add is Dohnanyi. I thought he was retired, but no, still going strong. I've been listening to his relatively recent Bruckner 9th with Philharmonia, from Salzburg on Signum, and it's an absolutely superb performance. A big Dohnanyi box from Decca wouldn't be amiss.

+1 for Dohnanyi, and also for a Decca box.

Muti, V Petrenko,  Thielemann, Harding to name four that never let me down.

Rattle is good but feel as though something missing when listening to him.

Any other admirers of Malcolm Sargent (1895-1967) sometimes known as 'Flash Harry' leading Thomas Beecham to make a joke when Sargent was on a tour in Japan saying 'Flash in Japan' ( get it?)

Anyway I've always felt that he was rather underrated as a conductor.

His Sibelius Symphony 5 (BBC SO) is my favourite version of that work.

I prefer his Walton Symphony 1 to the much lauded Previn LSO version

My brother says that his Messiah is the best version.

There is a great Holst 'The Planets' (BBC SO) and shorter works like Beni Mora

His Tallis Fantasia (VW) is one of the best.

Just to name a few of his recordings.

Quote from: vandermolen on September 13, 2018, 02:57:15 PM
Any other admirers of Malcolm Sargent (1895-1967) sometimes known as 'Flash Harry' leading Thomas Beecham to make a joke when Sargent was on a tour in Japan saying 'Flash in Japan' ( get it?)

Anyway I've always felt that he was rather underrated as a conductor.

His Sibelius Symphony 5 (BBC SO) is my favourite version of that work.

I prefer his Walton Symphony 1 to the much lauded Previn LSO version

My brother says that his Messiah is the best version.

There is a great Holst 'The Planets' (BBC SO) and shorter works like Beni Mora

His Tallis Fantasia (VW) is one of the best.

Just to name a few of his recordings.

It surprises me how few Sargent recordings there are given his fame during his lifetime. The very first LP I bought was Sargent conducting Vaughan Williams. After that he never seemed to appear on my radar. Did he make a lot of recordings that have never been reissued or was he 'squeezed' out by Beecham, Boult and Barbirolli?

I know he conducted the premiere of RVW 9 but did he ever record it?

Quote from: Biffo on September 14, 2018, 12:59:59 AM
It surprises me how few Sargent recordings there are given his fame during his lifetime. The very first LP I bought was Sargent conducting Vaughan Williams. After that he never seemed to appear on my radar. Did he make a lot of recordings that have never been reissued or was he 'squeezed' out by Beecham, Boult and Barbirolli?

I know he conducted the premiere of RVW 9 but did he ever record it?

There's a nice boxed set giving some idea of the range of his recordings. The premiere performance of VW's 9th Symphony has an infamous reputation. Apparently the orchestra was under rehearsed and VW ended up paying for some rehearsals himself. Sargent is supposed to have taken it much too fast. Roy Douglas who worked with VW in later years (he died some while back at over 100 and I once had tea with him) wrote a book called 'Working with RVW' in which he is scathing about Sargent, whom he obviously couldn't stand, and the performance. A recording does exist on Pristine Audio which, of course, I snapped up. Actually I was surprised as I didn't think it was that bad although the opening movement did sound rather rushed:
[asin]B00I3LJRCA[/asin]
If you click on the Amazon link above some of the reviews are interesting.

When I first typed in 'Sargent' under 'CDs' of course I got Sargent Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.  ::)

Quote from: vandermolen on September 14, 2018, 03:08:56 AM
There's a nice boxed set giving some idea of the range of his recordings. The premiere performance of VW's 9th Symphony has an infamous reputation. Apparently the orchestra was under rehearsed and VW ended up paying for some rehearsals himself. Sargent is supposed to have taken it much too fast. Roy Douglas who worked with VW in later years (he died some while back at over 100 and I once had tea with him) wrote a book called 'Working with RVW' in which he is scathing about Sargent, whom he obviously couldn't stand, and the performance. A recording does exist on Pristine Audio which, of course, I snapped up. Actually I was surprised as I didn't think it was that bad although the opening movement did sound rather rushed:
[asin]B00I3LJRCA[/asin]
If you click on the Amazon link above some of the reviews are interesting.

When I first typed in 'Sargent' under 'CDs' of course I got Sargent Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.  ::)

I've just consulted Michael Kennedy's book on the works of RVW. The 9th had a single rehearsal of 3 hours on March 21 1958 , paid for by the composer (over £250). The unsatisfactory premiere took place of April 2nd. I suppose RVW may have sensed the end was near and just wanted to hear the work; he died on August 26th. Boult recorded the work fairly quickly, a great shame he couldn't have conducted the first performance. Kennedy puts some of the blame on the conditions London orchestras have to work under, there was no possibility of the long rehearsals that had been available with the Halle.

I suppose I must have seen the Sargent Icon box before and decided there wasn't enough in it of interest to warrant a purchase.

Quote from: vandermolen on September 14, 2018, 03:08:56 AM
When I first typed in 'Sargent' under 'CDs' of course I got Sargent Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.  ::)

Three cheers for the Information Super-Highway!

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 14, 2018, 07:08:26 AM
Three cheers for the Information Super-Highway!

When I did a search for the Seattle Symphony Orchestra (see other thread) on Amazon, under Classical Music, it initially tried to direct me to Seattle Seahawks.

regarding Sargent I must admit to not sharing other's enthusiasm for him.  All of this is from memory but I seem to recall that even though Walton wrote a note for publication on the back cover of the Symphony No.1 recording he - the composer - preferred Previn's  contemporaneous account - sorry Vandermolen.  Also, Walton was less than impressed by the level of preparation Sargent put into the premiere of Troilus & Cressida. That performance can be heard in various pretty rough versions:

[asin]B00OAKI5P8[/asin]

to be fair, one Amazon reviewer praises this performance rather highly including Sargent's contribution - to me it sounds rough in every sense.  A shame because once you accept that it is an old-fashioned romantic/tragic opera I think it is one of Walton's masterpieces and certainly a work in which he invested much time and emotional energy.

One thought I put out there about Sargent - and by all means shoot this down in flames - I can't think of a single major 20th Century work dedicated to him by a British composer or other.  Most of the obvious others; Barbirolli/Wood/Boult etc I can think of immediately but not Sargent.  And aside from RVW 9 & Troilus did he get many big British premieres? (that is a genuine question!)

Quote from: vandermolen on September 14, 2018, 03:08:56 AM
.... Roy Douglas who worked with VW in later years (he died some while back at over 100 and I once had tea with him) wrote a book called 'Working with RVW' in which he is scathing about Sargent, whom he obviously couldn't stand, and the performance. ...

And IIRC, William Walton wasn't particularly thrilled with Sargent during the world premiere of Troilus and Cressida. Lady Walton uttered some unflattering (but good-humoured) words concerning the conductor  in Tony Palmer's At the Haunted End of the Day.

Yannick Nézet-Séguin saw his tenure with the Orchestre métropolitain extended in an unusual way this week. He has agreed to be their conductor for life. This definitely puts a lid on any expectations of him succeeding Kent Nagano with the Orchestre symphonique de Montréal.