I went to a seminar the other week where this Oxford/ Berkeley chap argued for Beethoven's symphonies being trashy, particularly the Fifth and Ninth, because he could point to homologous features in other rather bombastic music, such as in the Ruins of Athens numbers. Any serious listener knows though there are numerous composers where traits in their major works can be found in the minor ones also- this enriches and may well complicate the situation, but to argue against 200 years of critical appraisal saying that the Beethoven symphonies are great works can only be done by residing very high up away from reality in an ivory tower. On the deeper levels art and society may issue from the same source but I'm sceptical about relating music to anything else because the tendency is to have then explained it away.
Quote from: Sean on November 12, 2007, 09:22:11 AM
I went to a seminar the other week where this Oxford/ Berkeley chap argued for Beethoven's symphonies being trashy, particularly the Fifth and Ninth, because he could point to homologous features in other rather bombastic music, such as in the Ruins of Athens numbers. Any serious listener knows though there are numerous composers where traits in their major works can be found in the minor ones also- this enriches and may well complicate the situation, but to argue against 200 years of critical appraisal saying that the Beethoven symphonies are great works can only be done by residing very high up away from reality in an ivory tower. On the deeper levels art and society may issue from the same source but I'm sceptical about relating music to anything else because the tendency is to have then explained it away.
Ruins of Athens is great music!
Quote from: Sean on November 12, 2007, 09:22:11 AM
I went to a seminar the other week where this Oxford/ Berkeley chap argued for Beethoven's symphonies being trashy, particularly the Fifth and Ninth, because he could point to homologous features in other rather bombastic music, such as in the Ruins of Athens numbers. Any serious listener knows though there are numerous composers where traits in their major works can be found in the minor ones also- this enriches and may well complicate the situation, but to argue against 200 years of critical appraisal saying that the Beethoven symphonies are great works can only be done by residing very high up away from reality in an ivory tower. On the deeper levels art and society may issue from the same source but I'm sceptical about relating music to anything else because the tendency is to have then explained it away.
Bullshit.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 15, 2007, 07:09:03 AM
Ruins of Athens is great music!
Bullshit.
Riveting, isn't it?
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 15, 2007, 12:44:23 PM
Riveting, isn't it?
Not really. It might be if the moderators kicked out the abusive riff raff. Alas they seem consistently unwilling or incapable of doing so.
Rod, Try reading the rules of the site. Josquin's opinions may be poorly expressed, they may not adhere to some standards you expect; but that is no reason to ban someone. This site runs to Rob's rules, not yours....you seemed not to be able to grasp that concept last time round. If someone insults you, let us know, if they don't like the music or the opinions, they are free to say so.
Mike
Quote from: knight on November 16, 2007, 02:12:58 AM
Rod, Try reading the rules of the site. Josquin's opinions may be poorly expressed, they may not adhere to some standards you expect; but that is no reason to ban someone. This site runs to Rob's rules, not yours....you seemed not to be able to grasp that concept last time round. If someone insults you, let us know, if they don't like the music or the opinions, they are free to say so.
Mike
This is the only site I can think of whereby members can routinely refer to other members comments as 'bullshit' and get away with it completely. Meanwhile you are giving ME a hard time for complaining about it. I can't imagine a more perverse situation. I pressed the report post button already with no result, but considering your comment here, I needn't have bothered.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 02:34:27 AM
This is the only site I can think of whereby members can refer to other members comments as 'bullshit' and get away with it completely. I pressed the report post button already with no result, but considering your comment here, I needn't have bothered.
Maybe you are to civilized for the rest of us. It was clearly bullshit that Beethoven's symphonies are trashy, get over it huh. If I was at that seminar I would have gotten up and yelled bullshit.
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on November 16, 2007, 02:46:45 AM
Maybe you are to civilized for the rest of us. It was clearly bullshit that Beethoven's symphonies are trashy, get over it huh. If I was at that seminar I would have gotten up and yelled bullshit.
Get a grip, the comment I made was not a quote and certainly was not bullshit. READ!!!
But I could tollerate the profanity if it was coupled with some intelligent insight, something that is a rare commodity here.
Quote from: Sean on November 12, 2007, 09:22:11 AM
I went to a seminar the other week where this Oxford/ Berkeley chap argued for Beethoven's symphonies being trashy, particularly the Fifth and Ninth, because he could point to homologous features in other rather bombastic music, such as in the Ruins of Athens numbers. Any serious listener knows though there are numerous composers where traits in their major works can be found in the minor ones also- this enriches and may well complicate the situation, but to argue against 200 years of critical appraisal saying that the Beethoven symphonies are great works can only be done by residing very high up away from reality in an ivory tower. On the deeper levels art and society may issue from the same source but I'm sceptical about relating music to anything else because the tendency is to have then explained it away.
Why can't the trashy works and the great ones share characteristics? I think it's a wonderful and mysterious fact that this is so. It should only bother you if you think great music has some essence imported from Beyond. Since there are no Platonists here there's no need to worry, eh, Sean?
;) I don't know
Ruins Of Athens. Fellow trash collectors: Could anyone point me to a clip of
Athens? Would exposure to it ruin the symphonies for a healthy adult?
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 02:34:27 AM
This is the only site I can think of whereby members can routinely refer to other members comments as 'bullshit' and get away with it completely.
Don't get out much?
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 02:34:27 AM
This is the only site I can think of whereby members can routinely refer to other members comments as 'bullshit' and get away with it completely.
Routinely? I'm possibly the only one here who would resort to such antics and i don't post much.
In all fairness, what did you expect? The original comment deserved nothing more, and your response wasn't exactly a paragon in common sense, either.
Still, you could use more polite words to say what's on you heart, and in this repect Rod is right.....
Quote from: drogulus on November 16, 2007, 04:57:47 AM
Why can't the trashy works and the great ones share characteristics? I think it's a wonderful and mysterious fact that this is so. It should only bother you if you think great music has some essence imported from Beyond. Since there are no Platonists here there's no need to worry, eh, Sean? ;)
I don't know Ruins Of Athens. Fellow trash collectors: Could anyone point me to a clip of Athens? Would exposure to it ruin the symphonies for a healthy adult?
There is more to Ruins.. than the overture, there are a number of other vocal and instrumental pieces too. In fact this music is packed with 'hits' and I'm surprised it is not better known. I have a recording of all of it, a rare thing. Maybe if you ask at my site I'll oblige you with a track or two. GMG is not in my good books today...
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 16, 2007, 06:24:46 AM
Routinely? I'm possibly the only one here who would resort to such antics and i don't post much.
In all fairness, what did you expect? The original comment deserved nothing more, and your response wasn't exactly a paragon in common sense, either.
Believe me, you're not the only one from my experience here. Concerning my earlier comment, have you actually heard all the music from Ruins of Athens?
Quote from: Harry on November 16, 2007, 06:26:18 AM
Still, you could use more polite words to say what's on you heart, and in this repect Rod is right.....
Only
this respect Harry? :o
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 06:49:56 AM
Concerning my earlier comment, have you actually heard all the music from Ruins of Athens?
Yes i did. Is it bad music? Of course not. Is it a great masterpiece in the same order as the
ninth? Not even close.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 16, 2007, 07:20:52 AM
Yes i did. Is it bad music? Of course not. Is it a great masterpiece in the same order as the ninth? Not even close.
Who said that? I said it was great music, and great music it is! 'Great' means many things. How many pieces by any composer compare with the 9th for God's sake?? Yet there are still many other great pieces. I even get great joy from Beethoven's humble mandolin music!
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 07:30:08 AM
'Great' means many things.
No it doesn't. What ever gave you such an idea?
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 07:30:08 AM
How many pieces by any composer compare with the 9th for God's sake??
Very few. You do realize of course something doesn't need to be great to be worthwhile, right?
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 16, 2007, 07:33:45 AM
No it doesn't. What ever gave you such an idea?
Great can mean 'Big' 'Important' 'Grand'; a description of area, mass or volume; or a response to something that meets with ones general approval (which was the context I was using), to name but a few things. Perhaps you need to improve your English? But even 'chips off the block' from Beethoven are better music than most other composers 'great' works, and that's in the context
you mean it! So you see, even here 'Great' is a purely relative term.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 07:39:31 AM
'Great' is a purely relative term.
You don't happen to be an Elgar fan, by any chance?
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 16, 2007, 07:57:21 AM
You don't happen to be an Elgar fan, by any chance?
He stop that, there was enough trouble about him, don't stir that up again.........
You know, all tonal music is bad because Karl von Schitten's Concerto Grosso no. 6 stinks, and it is tonal.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 16, 2007, 07:57:21 AM
You don't happen to be an Elgar fan, by any chance?
A poor diversion 'Josquin', but never mind, Elgar serves me no purpose. Beethoven and Handel are the masters.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 11:34:23 AM
Beethoven and Handel are the masters.
And you can trust the Corkster, because he's always right, and he's a lot smarter than any of us.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2007, 11:37:18 AM
And you can trust the Corkster, because he's always right, and he's a lot smarter than any of us.
Another poor diversion, but only to be expected from the local Mafia at GMG. So you have no opinion of Elgar yourself Mr Henning?
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 02:34:27 AM
This is the only site I can think of whereby members can routinely refer to other members comments as 'bullshit' and get away with it completely.
That's bullshit .......
Quote from: D Minor on November 16, 2007, 11:50:35 AM
That's bullshit .......
Oh, I am
so reporting you to the mods, buster!
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 11:42:49 AM
Another poor diversion, but only to be expected from the local Mafia at GMG. So you have no opinion of Elgar yourself Mr Henning?
I'm the Don of Albuquerque and can attest to the fact that there's no mafia at CMG. That doesn't necessarily mean that Corkin shouldn't be looking over his shoulder. The guy on the subway might be coming to get him.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 11:42:49 AM
So you have no opinion of Elgar yourself Mr Henning?
Karl has and so expresed them about twenty-thousand threads ago.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 11:34:23 AM
A poor diversion 'Josquin', but never mind, Elgar serves me no purpose. Beethoven and Handel are the masters.
Do any composers, excepting Beethoven and Handel, serve any purpose for you other than dumping on them when you make comparisons to Beethoven and Handel?
In itself, an impoverished use at best to have for poor LvB and GFH.
Quote from: Don on November 16, 2007, 11:58:08 AM
Do any composers, excepting Beethoven and Handel, serve any purpose for you other than dumping on them when you make comparisons to Beethoven and Handel?
The ability to "dump on" a composer is a very cathartic, necessary purpose ......... one of the most important purposes a composer can have ........
In this vein, Elgar is a fundamentally important composer who serves a vital, central function to GMG ........
He's just trying to make us hate Beethoven and Handel the way he spoiled Elgar for us. Clever man.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 16, 2007, 12:02:47 PM
He's just trying to make us hate Beethoven and Handel the way he spoiled Elgar for us.
It's the pink harp game. His 2-D devotion repels more balanced music-lovers; and then he can smugly feel superior to those of us who don't share his fervor for The Two Masters.
Whatever else one says about the Corkster, he's found a warm bubble to his liking.
Quote from: Don on November 16, 2007, 11:58:08 AM
Do any composers, excepting Beethoven and Handel, serve any purpose for you other than dumping on them when you make comparisons to Beethoven and Handel?
Must I assume you appreciate all composers in equal measure Don?
Is this kind of fighting necesarry I ask myself.......
Quote from: Harry on November 16, 2007, 12:36:26 PM
Is this kind of fighting necesarry I ask myself.......
My friend please do not confuse bitching with fighting, for there is no fight going on here. Can you believe all this began because I dared to say something positive about Beethoven's 'The Ruins of Athens'?? Alas in a moderation-free forum these things happen...
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 12:43:12 PM
My friend please do not confuse bitching with fighting, for there is no fight going on here. Can you believe all this began because I dared to say something positive about Beethoven's 'The Ruins of Athens'?? Alas in a moderation-free forum these things happen...
The Ruins of Athens, happens to be one of my favourite Beethoven pieces, and no, I cannot believe what ensued afterwards, but in one thing you are mistaken there is effective moderation on this forum.
People get lots of room to say what they think, but for everything there is a line, when crossed........
Bitching and fighting are very close when it comes to a destructive manipulation with words....
Quote from: Harry on November 16, 2007, 12:54:32 PM
The Ruins of Athens, happens to be one of my favourite Beethoven pieces, and no, I cannot believe what ensued afterwards, but in one thing you are mistaken there is effective moderation on this forum.
People get lots of room to say what they think, but for everything there is a line, when crossed........
Bitching and fighting are very close when it comes to a destructive manipulation with words....
Forgive me but during the time I have spent here and I have yet to witness a single example of genuine moderation. Basically it's a free-for-all for the 'locals'.
In a moderation-free forum, things like saying something positive about Beethoven's 'The Ruins of Athens' happen?
Well, there are worse things.
Heck, I'll say something positive about it: It's pretty good. I'd listen to it once every two or three years, without complaint.
The thing is, Rod (and by all means, report me to the moderators for saying so), the drum you beat on, "Beethoven is The Master, and every note of his is golden" is an eccentricity. An eccentricity to which you are certainly welcome. But most of us are apt to feel that there are 300 pieces we would sooner hear, and out of which we will derive greater musical value, than the obscurer reaches of Beethoven, notwithstanding your own obsequiousness towards him.
QuoteHeck, I'll say something positive about it: It's pretty good. I'd listen to it once every two or three years, without complaint.
Well, but I wouldn't pay to hear a professional orchestra play it live. That were a waste of mine money.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 12:58:15 PM
Forgive me but during the time I have spent here and I have yet to witness a single example of genuine moderation. Basically it's a free-for-all for the 'locals'.
Yes that I can easily understand. Sometimes I wish reaction time would be a bit quicker, but then moderators cannot oversee all at the same time, but they do what they can. I was attacked many times, but I never felt a lack of moderation. But coming in from time to time, will give you the impression, of a free for all.....
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2007, 01:03:53 PM
Well, but I wouldn't pay to hear a professional orchestra play it live. That were a waste of mine money.
Well that is a very personal thing, I have heard it live, played by a very good Dutch orchestra, and it sounded riveting, but what do I know.....
Quote from: Harry on November 16, 2007, 01:05:19 PM
But coming in from time to time, will give you the impression, of a free for all.....
And especially to Rod, who really just waits for people to download his clips and acknowledge the supremacy of his own musical perspective.
At any rate,
Harry, it is not too soon for Rod to learn that, however the moderators operate, they do not exist to enforce Rod's notions of a forum.
Rod has (I am told) his own forum for that. I am sure it is a lively place.
Quote from: Harry on November 16, 2007, 01:11:13 PM
Well that is a very personal thing, I have heard it live, played by a very good Dutch orchestra, and it sounded riveting, but what do I know.....
Why,
Harry, if you enjoyed it, cherish it. If I heard it live, played by a very good orchestra, I may not enjoy it nearly so much as you. It would be a dull forum,
Harry, if we all heard all music in exactly the same way.
Quote from: Harry on November 16, 2007, 01:11:13 PM
it sounded riveting
So you were transfixed by a simple one-minute melody in two-part form, followed by another one also in two part-part form with maybe a following standard three-part form minuet?
WoW! :o
Anyway, I'd much rather hear (for instance) the following seven pieces performed live than any Beethoven overture:
von Weber, Invitation to the Dance
Strauss, Roses from the South
Shostakovich, Festive Overture
Britten, Passacaglia from Peter Grimes
Elgar, Sospiri
Mendelssohn, Overture to A Midsummer Night's Dream
Hindemith, Kammermusik, any of 'em, take yer pick
Quote from: johnQpublic on November 16, 2007, 01:14:51 PM
So you were transfixed by a simple one-minute melody in two-part form, followed by another one also in two part-part form with maybe a following standard three-part form minuet?
WoW! :o
Heck,
Harry would probably work out to it 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2007, 01:12:54 PM
Why, Harry, if you enjoyed it, cherish it. If I heard it live, played by a very good orchestra, I may not enjoy it nearly so much as you. It would be a dull forum, Harry, if we all heard all music in exactly the same way.
Thank you for that.
And I never said that I thought that music sounds the same to everyone, hell most of the music I play is unpalatable to most.....
Quote from: Harry on November 16, 2007, 01:05:19 PM
Yes that I can easily understand. Sometimes I wish reaction time would be a bit quicker, but then moderators cannot oversee all at the same time, but they do what they can. I was attacked many times, but I never felt a lack of moderation. But coming in from time to time, will give you the impression, of a free for all.....
It's OK Harry, I'm not unduly concerned about what goes on here, I just pop back every now any again to see if things have improved. But it's interesting that some of the Mafia who mouth off here at the drop of a hat are as quiet as lambs at CMG...
Quote from: johnQpublic on November 16, 2007, 01:14:51 PM
So you were transfixed by a simple one-minute melody in two-part form, followed by another one also in two part-part form with maybe a following standard three-part form minuet?
WoW! :o
Yes, but then I m very simpleminded, I thought you knew that... :)
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2007, 01:11:35 PM
Rod has (I am told) his own forum for that. I am sure it is a lively place.
Poor marks for observation Karl, the link to my new forum is in my signature.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 01:18:06 PM
It's OK Harry, I'm not unduly concerned about what goes on here, I just pop back every now any again to see if things have improved. But it's interesting that some of the Mafia who mouth off here at the drop of a hat are as quiet as lambs at CMG...
You are right in that.....
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 01:19:55 PM
Poor marks for observation Karl, the link to my new forum is in my signature.
Hear that, Harry? Are you to berate Rod now as you recently berated me?
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 01:18:06 PM
But it's interesting that some of the Mafia who mouth off here at the drop of a hat are as quiet as lambs at CMG...
That's because, compared to here, CMG is
run by the Mafia ...
Quote from: Mark on November 16, 2007, 01:22:06 PM
That's because, compared to here, CMG is run by the Mafia ...
A Mafia, but a different Mafia. It proves my point however about locals getting away with murder.
Quote from: Mark on November 16, 2007, 01:21:07 PM
Hear that, Harry? Are you to berate Rod now as you recently berated me?
You only just noticed too? ;D
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 01:27:05 PM
You only just noticed too? ;D
No. I wouldn't have known had Harry not mentioned it. Like many members here, I have signatures and avatars switched off. Makes following threads easier, I find.
As to the question of the CMG Mafia ... let's not go there. ;D
Quote from: Mark on November 16, 2007, 01:33:03 PM
No. I wouldn't have known had Harry not mentioned it. Like many members here, I have signatures and avatars switched off. Makes following threads easier, I find.
Well if you switch them on you will notice my ad is the utmost in discretion. Even those who can see it aren't aware of it. I use subliminal conditioning....
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2007, 01:11:35 PM
Rod has (I am told) his own forum for that. I am sure it is a lively place.
I just had to check, and what do i find? That Robert Newman is still out of the bag. I feel sorry for Rod already, not even he deserves that.
Quote from: Rod Corkin"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org
Right, so I looked. What's subliminal about the above? ???
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 12:23:44 PM
Must I assume you appreciate all composers in equal measure Don?
Of course not. Here's an example that reveals a difference between us:
1. I prefer Bach to Handel, but I don't dump on Handel to promote Bach.
2. You prefer Handel to Bach, and you have extensively dumped on Bach to promote Handel.
Got it?
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 01:19:55 PM
Poor marks for observation Karl, the link to my new forum is in my signature.
Poor marks for observation, Rod; users can deselect signatures, so the question of
my powers of observation doesn't enter into the matter.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 01:18:06 PM
But it's interesting that some of the Mafia who mouth off here at the drop of a hat are as quiet as lambs at CMG...
You're right!
Why,
you're quiet as a lamb at CMG!
Boy, a fight just ain't a fight anymore without Larry around! ;)
Quote from: donwyn on November 16, 2007, 05:45:20 PM
Boy, a fight just ain't a fight anymore without Larry around! ;)
Right, seems more like bitching to me. The venom! ;D
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 16, 2007, 01:18:06 PM
It's OK Harry, I'm not unduly concerned about what goes on here, I just pop back every now any again to see if things have improved. But it's interesting that some of the Mafia who mouth off here at the drop of a hat are as quiet as lambs at CMG...
Rod, welcome back.
I would actually be looking forward to a good Händel recordings thread, which is sadly still lacking around here.
I trust that will be in competent hands with you? :)
Q
PS You won't see me on CMG, for all the offensive (c)rudeness flying around here now and then - and lately more now than then... It's there the
moderators that annoy me to no end.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2007, 04:17:30 PM
You're right!
Why, you're quiet as a lamb at CMG!
This may be largely due to the fact that I am no longer a member of CMG. I ordered the mod to remove me a while ago! Here you only have trailer trash type comments to worry about, but there you have all kinds of other more psychological stuff going on, and religious mania too! Too much even for me!
Quote from: Que on November 17, 2007, 12:01:58 AM
Rod, welcome back.
I would actually be looking forward to a good Händel recordings thread, which is sadly still lacking around here.
I trust that will be in competent hands with you? :)
Q
PS You won't see me on CMG, for all the offensive (c)rudeness flying around here now and then - and lately more now than then... It's there the moderators that annoy me to no end.
Well if you for one have signatures switched on you will find a place with a lot of Handel discussion going on right now! And and a lot of downloads too. I leave it up to you to decide...
Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2007, 01:17:16 PM
Anyway, I'd much rather hear (for instance) the following seven pieces performed live than any Beethoven overture:
von Weber, Invitation to the Dance
Strauss, Roses from the South
Shostakovich, Festive Overture
Britten, Passacaglia from Peter Grimes
Elgar, Sospiri
Mendelssohn, Overture to A Midsummer Night's Dream
Hindemith, Kammermusik, any of 'em, take yer pick
A fine list, indeed.
Personally, I'd rather prefer hearing Beethoven's
Die Weihe des Hauses than any of these pieces performed live, with the possible exception of Mendelssohn's priceless homage to Shakespeare. Hindemith's music should appear in concert more often, anyway.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 17, 2007, 02:16:18 AM
Well if you for one have signatures switched on you will find a place with a lot of Handel discussion going on right now! And and a lot of downloads too. I leave it up to you to decide...
Well, no doubt, all of us who find Handel discussion compelling have already registered . . . .
Quote from: Wanderer on November 17, 2007, 05:02:44 AM
A fine list, indeed.
Personally, I'd rather prefer hearing Beethoven's Die Weihe des Hauses than any of these pieces performed live, with the possible exception of Mendelssohn's priceless homage to Shakespeare. Hindemith's music should appear in live concerts more often, anyway.
I would say Beethoven's homage to Handel makes for far better listening than Mendelssohn's homage to Shakespeare. Though of course only when Rod expresses a preference do the rockets and missiles start firing... ::). But I take it as a compliment.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 17, 2007, 08:36:09 AM
Well, no doubt, all of us who find Handel discussion compelling have already registered . . . .
Apparently not...
Quote from: MarkThat's because, compared to here, CMG is run by the Mafia ...
Quote from: Rod Corkin
A Mafia, but a different Mafia. It proves my point however about locals getting away with murder.
A "different Mafia"? Interesting. Any good examples of recent "murder"?
Quote from: Topaz on November 17, 2007, 11:02:02 PM
A "different Mafia"? Interesting. Any good examples of recent "murder"?
Let's not go there - again - shall we? ::)
Q
Quote from: Topaz on November 17, 2007, 11:02:02 PM
A "different Mafia"? Interesting. Any good examples of recent "murder"?
Indeed a killing question. What about dropping this futile discussion?
Quote from: Que on November 17, 2007, 11:39:21 PM
Let's not go there - again - shall we? ::)
Q
So why haven't you joined the place where there are plenty of Handel related things going on? There seems to be a free flow of activity from members here across other similar sites and vice versa.