I would like to hear members input on which Rimsky-Korsakov orchestral works are worth collecting, besides the obvious. I understand his symphonies, especially #2, are worth investigating. There's a set on Brilliant (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Oct02/Rimsky_Brilliant.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Oct02/Rimsky_Brilliant.htm)) and Bis (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11191 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11191)) that have gotten decent reviews, but I look forward to other suggestions...
The only things you need are Scherazade, Russian Easter Fantasy Overture, and the Capricio Espanol. Everything else I have heard by him range from the forgettable (opera music, I can't take an entire opera unfortunately) to outright terrible (symphonies for example)
RW1883 - your links interest me, and I'll take a serious look @ the listings.
Another recommendation that I own is a great bargin 2-CD set shown below - includes the usual R-K suggestions, plus others; but, I'd love to hear comments from others who might have the 'larger' sets of your links! :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21SRGWTPQBL._AA180_.jpg)
"The obvious" with Reiner is all you need. $:)
As well as the obvious, I would suggest getting the suite from Le Coq d'Or.
I have the 4-disc Brilliant Classics set which I picked up some time ago for about £6; it has the 3 symphonies, Sheherazade, Sadko (musical picture), Song of India, Overture on Russian Themes, The Tsars Bride Overture, Fantasia on Serbian Themes, Fairy Tale (Skazka), The Tale of Tsar Saltan Suite, Le Coq d'Or, Flight of the Bumble Bee and Christmas Eve Suite. Some of it is interesting, but none of it is essential unless you are a real Rimsky-Korsakov completist.
Quote from: BorisG on December 11, 2007, 07:50:07 PM
"The obvious" with Reiner is all you need. $:)
very true. i would add 'russian easter overture' (barenboim/chicago) and 'tsar slatan' (ansermet/osr)
the ones you listed are probably very good, too.
many people dig beecham's 'scheherazade'.
dj
You should have also his magnificent piano trio, his SQ
and his string sextet. And don't forget the movements
he wrote for string quartet on the collective works. :D :D
Definitely listen to the symphonies, particularly Antar, which should appeal to anyone who enjoys Scheherazade. I have that Brilliant set but so far find Butt's Antar exasperatingly slow and leaden. There's a Naxos recording of it with more get-up-and-go.
The orchestral works are very worthwhile, for RK was one of the great orchestrator's around.
The inexpensive set on BIS with the Malaysian SO/Kees Bakels. That will give you the major works in pristine performances and sound.
The Chambermusic is also very worthwhile....
Is the Brilliant set all Yondoni Butt? They've issued some other ASV recordings, so that makes sense.
Some of my favorites:
Scheherazade: Stokowski/LSO/Cala
Capriccio Espagnol: Kondrashin/RCA
Opera orchestral suites: Järvi
Russian Easter: Rodzinski
For Antar, Beecham makes the most of the work, but that's in mono. I wish Sony/BMG would reissue the Morton Gould recording.
Here's a nice budget issue with some classic recordings:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412MRHFN59L._AA240_.jpg)
Rimsky was primarily an opera composer. I suppose he was neglected for a long time because his works were in Russian and were based on fairy tales rather than being verismo works. But in recent years more has become available on CD and DVD, so maybe one of our opera experts can comment on some desirable releases.
Daverz, it's a 50/50 split between Butt and Loris Tjeknavorian (who is also an ASV artist). Both of the latters' CD's are with the Armenian Philharmonic whereas the Butts' are one with the LSO and one with the Philharmonia.
Quoterw1883
I would like to hear members input on which Rimsky-Korsakov orchestral works are worth collecting, besides the obvious.
Well, that is not what you asked, but I would strongly suggest some of his operas: Kitege, Le coq d'or, Tzar Saltan, Sadko, Katshei the Immortal, among others. They are very beautiful.
Daverz - The Capriccio Espagnole - is the Kondrashin/RCA better than the Maazel/BPO on DG?
Quote from: val on December 13, 2007, 01:07:34 AM
Well, that is not what you asked, but I would strongly suggest some of his operas: Kitege, Le coq d'or, Tzar Saltan, Sadko, Katshei the Immortal, among others. They are very beautiful.
Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I'll definitely look into the operas as well. I've read Golovanov conducting "May Night" is one worth getting...
By chance I just this morning put a mini-comment about Rimsky's First and Third Symphonies under the topic "The Worst First."
Check for a 2-CD set with Neemi Jarvi conducting the Scottish National Orchestra in all of the best suites from the operas. I also have his DGG set with all 3 symphonies and the Russian Easter Overture and the Capriccio Espagnol.
Although you said orchestral CD's, the ultimate Rimsky-Korsakov work to have is the opera The Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya.
Quote from: Cato on December 13, 2007, 09:26:02 AM
By chance I just this morning put a mini-comment about Rimsky's First and Third Symphonies under the topic "The Worst First."
Check for a 2-CD set with Neemi Jarvi conducting the Scottish National Orchestra in all of the best suites from the operas. I also have his DGG set with all 3 symphonies and the Russian Easter Overture and the Capriccio Espagnol.
Although you said orchestral CD's, the ultimate Rimsky-Korsakov work to have is the opera The Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya.
Concerning "The Invisible City of Kitezh", is the Gergiev the one to get?
Night on Mount Triglav
30+ minutes of Orchestral, from the Opera Mlada...wonderful themes, lovely work
Marco Polo
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on December 13, 2007, 09:32:27 AM
Night on Mount Triglav
30+ minutes of Orchestral, from Opera...wonderful themes, lovely work
Marco Polo
I was completely unaware of this work, but just the title alone has me interested. Mount Triglav (Three-Head) is the highest peak in Slovenia (formerly the highest peak in Yugoslavia). This the triple-peaked mountain is a national symbol of Slovenia and can be seen in the coat of arms on the flag of Slovenia.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Coat_of_Arms_of_Slovenia.svg/85px-Coat_of_Arms_of_Slovenia.svg.png)
The Marco Polo recording you mention appears to be OOP. But there is a Naxos CD with the Moscow SO and Igor Golovschin conducting. Has anyone heard that one?
Buy this CD and you'll never need another Rimsky-Korsakov recording.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DK9YB1P0L._SS500_.jpg)
On the other hand, this one is also pleasant, if you like chamber music.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YRE45RHRL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: rw1883 on December 13, 2007, 09:30:20 AM
Concerning "The Invisible City of Kitezh", is the Gergiev the one to get?
Yes, I am fairly happy with it, even with the stage noise. Some reviewers complained about a few of the singers, but if you want a complete recording, this is - I think - the only game in town. There was another recording years ago, but it had cuts of about an hour.
Quote from: head-case on December 13, 2007, 11:10:16 AM
Buy this CD and you'll never need another Rimsky-Korsakov recording.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DK9YB1P0L._SS500_.jpg)
How would you know whether the OP needs another RK recording? How many
Scheherazades have you heard? Is this another one of your bone-headed nutjob recommendations?
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 13, 2007, 02:32:28 PM
How would you know whether the OP needs another RK recording? How many Scheherazades have you heard? Is this another one of your bone-headed nutjob recommendations?
I happen to know these are the finest R-K available, and that R-K didn't manage to compose enough decent orchestral music to spill over on to a third CD. 0:)
Quote from: head-case on December 13, 2007, 03:24:28 PM
I happen to know these are the finest R-K available, and that R-K didn't manage to compose enough decent orchestral music to spill over on to a third CD. 0:)
That's crap!
A truly exuberant Tsar Bride overture (Gergiev is not even CLOSE with his lack of detail and precision with Kirov, sad to say), a Snow Maiden with extreme beauty (with modern sound and precision that embarrasses Ansermet and his gang), a Scheherazade that is interpretatively and technically comparable to any big name in the catalogue etc, the MPO/Kees Bakels on BIS is the way to go. Of course there are better recordings of each individual one, for example, Kodrashin's RCO Scheherazade has a more organic sense in tempi choices while Bakels is more Reiner like, slightly forward, which i don't like. But for the sound and the price, you can't go wrong. And what a hall too!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NDNVIpa2L._SS500_.jpg)
Howard
He wrote some interesting songs as well. "A Flight of Passing Clouds" is an absolutely ravishing, haunting piece. I have this sung by Jennie Tourel on an old Columbia LP, but I don't know whether it is available on CD.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 13, 2007, 02:32:28 PM
How would you know whether the OP needs another RK recording? How many Scheherazades have you heard? Is this another one of your bone-headed nutjob recommendations?
the ansermet is a great collection and worth having for r-k fans.
dj
The most stunning Capriccio espagnole for me is the BPO/Maazel on DG Originals that even tops Argenta & Dorati!
Quote from: david johnson on December 16, 2007, 02:52:11 AM
the ansermet is a great collection and worth having for r-k fans.
dj
That I agree with completely.
Quote from: hautbois on December 15, 2007, 06:44:55 PM
That's crap!
A truly exuberant Tsar Bride overture (Gergiev is not even CLOSE with his lack of detail and precision with Kirov, sad to say), a Snow Maiden with extreme beauty (with modern sound and precision that embarrasses Ansermet and his gang), a Scheherazade that is interpretatively and technically comparable to any big name in the catalogue etc, the MPO/Kees Bakels on BIS is the way to go. Of course there are better recordings of each individual one, for example, Kodrashin's RCO Scheherazade has a more organic sense in tempi choices while Bakels is more Reiner like, slightly forward, which i don't like. But for the sound and the price, you can't go wrong. And what a hall too!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NDNVIpa2L._SS500_.jpg)
Howard
Could not agree more Howard....as I said earlier in this thread the same. :)
Apart from the obvious, I would recommend The Invisible City of Kitezh and the charming Christmas Eve with its lovely ballet of the stars.
Quote from: techniquest on December 11, 2007, 10:47:04 PM
As well as the obvious, I would suggest getting the suite from Le Coq d'Or.
Why only the suite? The opera itself is quite fun. As far as I know, it was supposed to ridicule and expose the Russian tsarist regime of the time. The libretto is sometimes hilarious. And beside that, the opera is very coherent with great music. The first part takes place at King Dodon's palace, but then they meet Queen of Shemakha, and from that time on there is a lot of music resembling the Sheherazade suite in style. Beside ethereal Queen of Shemakha arias, there are several orchestral pieces, such as the dance at the Queen's pavilion and the wedding procession, with the Arabian and the Dodon's motives blending. The Astrologer's music is somewhat "Chinese", and the tenor has to have the high E-flat, so some of them transpose the role.
Anyway, I am just totally exalted with the opera and think that it would be interesting to those who enjoy the Sheherazade suite.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 16, 2007, 04:24:15 AM
That I agree with completely.
Yes, the Ansermet R-K collection is great. My favorite Scheherazade along with a very fine Tsar Saltan Suite, Russian Eastern Festival Overture, May Night, and Christmas Eve.
I like this 2-CD set and have the set ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZV3A9TWFL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
This is my favourite RK CD set too:
See also http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9104.0.html
I've picked up sets of the Rimsky symphonies by Jarvi, Svetlanov and Kitajenko, and also have the Ansermet 2-disc set on Australian Decca Eloquence (including Antar).
The 1st and 3rd symphonies I think confuse interpreters because they cannot be included with Rimsky's "exotica". They are in fact much more classical in style. I love the 1st under Kitajenko - he makes it sound like early Schubert, which I think is how it should sound. Svetlanov heavily Russo-fies it, which is interesting especially if you enjoy that flavour, but the andante is deformed into a Slavic funeral - not at all what Rimsky intended. Jarvi by contrast is swifter but entirely arbitrary compared to Kitajenko. Kitajenko's pretty good in the 3rd too, but unfortunately is just too slow in the scherzo. Apparently Rohzdestvensty is great in the 3rd, but that recording is totally OOP.
Jarvi, Svet, Kitajenko and Ansermet are all decent in Antar, but none really reaches the top level, as far as I'm concerned. The last movement in particular, and the end of the last movement in especial particular, really need to be weightier and more impressive IMO. What other good recordings are there of this from the last 30 years?
"Ansermet in Rimsky suites" may sound like a done deal - and the result is pleasant if immediately forgettable. However, if you get the Regis disc of Svet in the Rimsky suites, you'll find something much more gripping and effective. I think assuming Ansermet is all you need in this area is a real mistake.
EDIT: One advantage of Ansermet is he includes the female choir in the Snow Maiden suite (they sound suspiciously like Rhine maidens).
I haven't encountered the operas yet, but from what I've heard about their exotic settings and crazy plots, they'd make fine DVD fodder.
I agree with the others who recommend the BIS set under Bakels: generally very fine performances, spectacular sound (befitting Rimsky's colorful orchestration), and a good bargain.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51o0T3UtgXL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Another good bargain is from Chandos, a very pleasant surprise when I've bought this from Amazon. Spectacular performances and sound, on the same level as Bakels, which is also in my possession.
Quote from: Coopmv on July 12, 2009, 04:46:18 PM
I like this 2-CD set and have the set ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZV3A9TWFL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
This set was a huge disappointment for me. Jarvi isn't really into the music of RK.
Quote from: Harry on March 01, 2010, 02:29:52 AM
This set was a huge disappointment for me. Jarvi isn't really into the music of RK.
Järvi is a highly variable conductor (though I haven't heard this DG set). His set of Rimsky-Korsakov suites on Chandos is fabulous.
[I see I've already recommended the Järvi/Chandos set in this thread...more than 2
years ago!]
I really enjoyed the quintet on this CD.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61RS6BSVJSL._SS400_.jpg)
I have the Gergiev Sadko CDs and have heard Gergiev do the Invisible City of Kitzeh (twice). I highly recommend both pieces. Kitezh, in particular, is a beautiful, visionary work. The opera Sadko cannot be judged by the symphonic poem of the same name, which is uninspired in comparison. I think the negative comments about R-K partly reflect an understable but wrongheaded focus on the incorrect part of his work.
BTW, no mention of the Reiner Scheherazade on this thread? This has always been the strongly recommended version of the work and has just been rereleased on SACD to enthusiasm.
Another vote for The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh, which has some really gorgeous music. Gergiev and the Kirov brought it to the Lincoln Center Festival in 2003, and I enjoyed it immensely. Here (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/18/arts/music/18KIRO.html?scp=4&sq=Kitezh&st=cse) is the New York Times review.
I haven't yet heard Sadko, but have heard it's marvelous--another example of Rimsky-Korsakov's talents as an orchestrator.
--Bruce
Reading over this thread from scratch, I'm surprised how relatively few people have recommended Rimsky's operas?
The single most-performed opera in Russia - far outplaying EVGENY ONEGIN or THE QUEEN OF SPADES even - is Rimsky's THE TSAR'S BRIDE (TSARSKAYA NEVESTA). I can't pretend I am over-found of this overly-melodramatic (to my mind) work, but Russians adore the piece beyond all reasonable level of devotion! It's a fact I use by way of illustration... Moscow has FIVE full-time professional opera companies, and TSAR'S BRIDE is the only opera which all five of them maintain permanently in their continuous every-season repertoire. And it is always sold-out.
But surely his most inspired and imaginative work for the stage is SNOW MAIDEN. Although written before the Tsar's assassination in 1881, it had the good luck to be produced soon after, in 1882 - ushering in a new era of ultra-patriotism and nationalism in the Arts in Russia ("foreign anarchists" were blamed for killing Tsar Alexander II, although in fact no-one was ever found - but foreign arts and culture came under heavy nationalist suspicion for decades afterwards).
Unlike the increasingly conservative and pseudo-patriotic works R-K produced later, this has the light touch of a fairyland kingdom, and deals touchingly with animist beliefs and traditions that are still found in the depths of Siberia. The entire score is imbued with astonishing beauty, and the three dances for Snow-Maiden's suitor Lel' are often performed in the concert-hall too - a calling-card for young mezzo-sopranos (it's a breeches role). Of course the role of the dopey sap Mizgir appeals to the Russian sense of humour, as he's a prototype for "Simpleton Ivan", anti-hero of Russian folk-tales and fairytales.
Oh, and we ought to put in a word for R-K's charming opera for children, KASHCHEY THE INVINCIBLE - again based on a Russian folktale. In Russia at least it still turns up in the repertoire, and still staged primarily for children to enjoy :)
(http://www.helikon.ru/img/wysiwyg/PICT5761.jpg)
Vladimir Bolotin (Kaschey) & Anna Grechishkina (The Queen)
(http://www.helikon.ru/img/wysiwyg/PICT5956_1.jpg)
Oles Paritsky (in a NASA uniform!) as Prince Ivan, and Anna Grechishkina (The Queen)
(http://www.helikon.ru/img/wysiwyg/PICT5900.jpg)
Ksenia Vyaznikova as the Wicked Witch (who turns out to be a Good Witch after all) & Oles Paritsky (Prince Ivan)
(all production photos from the Helikon Opera (Moscow) production by Dmitry Bertmann)
Quote from: False_Dmitry on June 07, 2010, 12:42:46 PM
But surely his most inspired and imaginative work for the stage is SNOW MAIDEN. Although written before the Tsar's assassination in 1881, it had the good luck to be produced soon after, in 1882 - ushering in a new era of ultra-patriotism and nationalism in the Arts in Russia ("foreign anarchists" were blamed for killing Tsar Alexander II, although in fact no-one was ever found - but foreign arts and culture came under heavy nationalist suspicion for decades afterwards).
Unlike the increasingly conservative and pseudo-patriotic works R-K produced later, this has the light touch of a fairyland kingdom, and deals touchingly with animist beliefs and traditions that are still found in the depths of Siberia. The entire score is imbued with astonishing beauty, and the three dances for Snow-Maiden's suitor Lel' are often performed in the concert-hall too - a calling-card for young mezzo-sopranos (it's a breeches role). Of course the role of the dopey sap Mizgir appeals to the Russian sense of humour, as he's a prototype for "Simpleton Ivan", anti-hero of Russian folk-tales and fairytales.
Ah, I forgot that I've seen a concert version of
The Snow Maiden--again thanks to Gergiev and the Kirov at Carnegie Hall a couple of years ago. Loved it! I'm not nearly as well-acquainted with these operas as you are, but it made an immediate (positive) impression. And of course I recognized bits here and there, e.g., the fantastically conceived "Dance of the Tumblers."
Have never heard
The Tsar's Bride (nor
Kashchey), and the Met has never produced it. (Although according to the Met database, a few arias were done on a Met concert program in 1926.)
However, the Met did stage
The Snow Maiden for 7 performances in 1922 ( :o) and
Sadko was done 11 times in 1930. Amazing, that neither one has returned since.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on June 07, 2010, 12:57:21 PMHave never heard The Tsar's Bride (nor Kashchey), and the Met has never produced it. (Although according to the Met database, a few arias were done on a Met concert program in 1926.)
By way of a tit-for-tat, the Bolshoi were compelled to admit they hadn't staged THE MAGIC FLUTE since 1898(!) - until it came around for the Mozart Birthday Bash just recently :)
Quote from: False_Dmitry on June 07, 2010, 01:04:27 PM
By way of a tit-for-tat, the Bolshoi were compelled to admit they hadn't staged THE MAGIC FLUTE since 1898(!) - until it came around for the Mozart Birthday Bash just recently :)
Wow...
really? :o
Now that is quite something...
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on June 07, 2010, 01:08:03 PM
Wow...really? :o
They phoned-around the cast from last time - but most of them were n/a ;)
Quote from: False_Dmitry on June 07, 2010, 01:13:30 PM
They phoned-around the cast from last time - but most of them were n/a ;)
;D ;D ;D
--Bruce
But they managed to stage such a violently unpopular new production of MAGIC FLUTE that it's certain not to come back into repertoire until 2098 now (or whenever they finish the rebuilding of the theatre - whichever comes first ;) )
I enjoyed this one a lot, although I see it is now OOP.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TC372B73L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
For Rimsky opera, check out this DVD:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51crBVrUT3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Delightful stuff.
Quote from: Grazioso on June 08, 2010, 10:28:12 AM
For Rimsky opera, check out this DVD:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51crBVrUT3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Delightful stuff.
Oooh, I have that one too, although have not found time to watch it yet. Need to put it near the top of the to-watch pile!
Quote from: cosmicj on June 07, 2010, 11:28:00 AM
I have the Gergiev Sadko CDs and have heard Gergiev do the Invisible City of Kitzeh (twice). I highly recommend both pieces. Kitezh, in particular, is a beautiful, visionary work. The opera Sadko cannot be judged by the symphonic poem of the same name, which is uninspired in comparison. I think the negative comments about R-K partly reflect an understable but wrongheaded focus on the incorrect part of his work.
BTW, no mention of the Reiner Scheherazade on this thread? This has always been the strongly recommended version of the work and has just been rereleased on SACD to enthusiasm.
Reiner's Scheherazade was my first ever classical LP c 1969. I just bought the CD - what a great nostalgia trip! It is not like any other version known to me and head and shoulders above them all (IMHO).
I'm astonished to note that no one has mentioned the Beecham/Royal Philharmonic SCHEHEREZADE, but maybe you have to be of a certain age. I've just listened to the vinyl, and it is still a superb performance. Steven Staryk is the 1st violin soloist.
Surprisingly little action here!
Anyone familar with this recording? Mlada is the one with the Procession of the Nobles (often a piece played separately).
[asin]B00579EKZ0[/asin]
I haven't heard that recording, but the bumping up of this thread reminds me that I need to pint out that the recent Rimsky recordings by Gerard Schwarz and the Seattle Symphony on Naxos are outstanding!
"Scheherazade" has of course been issued in many more fine recordings ...
My Top-5 are probably (all are stereo):
- Silvestri EMI (very broad and grandiose, yet idiomatic)
- Celibidache DG
- Morton Gould, Morton Gould Orchestra
- Chalabala, Prague PO or Czech PO (LP cover has both), stereo (he also made a mono in 1953 which I haven´t heard)
Both Gould and Chalabala have an unusually "novellistic" approach with a lot of varied details.
- Beecham, RPO /emi
Other fine ones are
- Stokowski, RPO (not quite so dramatic as one could expect)
- Muti/EMI
As regards Dorati/Minneapolis I find it somewhat disappointing, the interpretation is fluent and rather fast, but the sound of both a Philips Fontana stereo LP and a Mercury mono LP was really annoying, very thin and tin-can-like.
Tjeknavorian is rather anonymous.
Had the Scherchen, but it is not among his most successful releases IMO & I sold it.
I'd like to plant a small seedling here, which I hope may grow into something more substantial.
I first heard Scheherazade when I was sixteen - one of the very first few pieces of classical music to make an impact. Rapidly I grew to love it. I spent serious money (at the time) on an LP of Paul Kletzki's version:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dCoaftIaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I didn't realise at the time that I had a real firecracker of a performance (didn't even know how different performances could be). I only knew I loved it. I listened to it several times a week for many months, and in due course wore it out completely. I think also, that I overdid it, and allowed it to wear me out. So when eventually I threw away my vinyl, I didn't bother to replace Scheherazade with a CD version.
Years went by. I thought Scheherazade was part of my past - immensely valuable, but definitely past. But then one day I had a fancy to hear it again, and bought the Naxos CD, under Batiz:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xC6C4KOLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
This confirmed me in my suspicion that Scheherazade and I were now ex-lovers. I didn't stop to think that the Batiz performance might fall a good way short of Kletzki's; or at least might just not be my cup of tea. I just shrugged and moved on.
More years slipped by. Then I discovered that Immerseel and Anima Eterna had done a period instrument version of Scheherazade:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V%2B1QkSAPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I was still riding the crest of the wave generated by Immerseel's fantastic Beethoven symphonies, so I couldn't get out my credit card fast enough. But although it was interesting to hear his take on the piece, I have to say that after several listenings it lost ground with me, and certainly failed to reignite my old passion for the music. (I listened to it again today, and found it even more disappointing: it's probably the least energising of all the Scheherazades I've been gathering together in recent weeks - more of which, anon.)
Which brings me to the Big Event of a couple of months ago, when purely on a whim, I bought this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FUI0oXCYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
After all, it was cheap; I had nothing much to lose, giving Scheherazade 'one more try', with a recording that is regarded as one of the very finest ever made. But I didn't expect much. I certainly didn't expect what happened, namely, that the music blew me out of my chair and left me in a state of gibbering bewilderment. My first love, Kletzki, may have been good, but by golly he was never this good. Out of the blue, Scheherazade was back on my personal map. I thought I knew the music backwards. I didn't. Beecham articulates the music with such clarity, such panache, such drama, and such delicacy, that I am no longer sitting in my chair: I'm in there with the princess through the night, being beguiled by her words, falling in love with her; I'm there on the ship, hanging on for dear life in the raging storm, marvelling in awe at the giant waves that tower over the boat.
This experience started a raging flashfire. If Beecham could bring Scheherazade back to vivid, pulsing life for me, then what about other conductors? I started reading reviews, and selectively ordering Scheherazade CDs online. More recently, I found myself digging about in the secondhand section at Bath Compact Discs, presenting my heap of purchases at the counter while mumbling self-consciously about not really being some sort of Rimsky Korsakov nerd. In this way I've gathered together versions by Reiner, Kondrashin, Svetlanov, Litton, Schwarz, and Gergiev, and am currently waiting for Ansermet, Ormandy, and Stokowski. I haven't heard anything yet that challenges Beecham for the number 1 spot, but there are some superb versions out there, regardless. As I get to know them better I hope to add comments about them.
But I'll tell you this - to think that you've lost one of your oldest and dearest loves, and then discover, 50 years on, that you haven't, after all - that's a fine and heartwarming discovery to make.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 11, 2012, 09:09:14 AM
I'd like to plant a small seedling here, which I hope may grow into something more substantial.
I first heard Scheherazade when I was sixteen - one of the very first few pieces of classical music to make an impact. Rapidly I grew to love it. I spent serious money (at the time) on an LP of Paul Kletzki's version:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dCoaftIaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I didn't realise at the time that I had a real firecracker of a performance (didn't even know how different performances could be). I only knew I loved it. I listened to it several times a week for many months, and in due course wore it out completely. I think also, that I overdid it, and allowed it to wear me out. So when eventually I threw away my vinyl, I didn't bother to replace Scheherazade with a CD version.
Years went by. I thought Scheherazade was part of my past - immensely valuable, but definitely past. But then one day I had a fancy to hear it again, and bought the Naxos CD, under Batiz:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xC6C4KOLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
This confirmed me in my suspicion that Scheherazade and I were now ex-lovers. I didn't stop to think that the Batiz performance might fall a good way short of Kletzki's; or at least might just not be my cup of tea. I just shrugged and moved on.
More years slipped by. Then I discovered that Immerseel and Anima Eterna had done a period instrument version of Scheherazade:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V%2B1QkSAPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I was still riding the crest of the wave generated by Immerseel's fantastic Beethoven symphonies, so I couldn't get out my credit card fast enough. But although it was interesting to hear his take on the piece, I have to say that after several listenings it lost ground with me, and certainly failed to reignite my old passion for the music. (I listened to it again today, and found it even more disappointing: it's probably the least energising of all the Scheherazades I've been gathering together in recent weeks - more of which, anon.)
Which brings me to the Big Event of a couple of months ago, when purely on a whim, I bought this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FUI0oXCYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
After all, it was cheap; I had nothing much to lose, giving Scheherazade 'one more try', with a recording that is regarded as one of the very finest ever made. But I didn't expect much. I certainly didn't expect what happened, namely, that the music blew me out of my chair and left me in a state of gibbering bewilderment. My first love, Kletzki, may have been good, but by golly he was never this good. Out of the blue, Scheherazade was back on my personal map. I thought I knew the music backwards. I didn't. Beecham articulates the music with such clarity, such panache, such drama, and such delicacy, that I am no longer sitting in my chair: I'm in there with the princess through the night, being beguiled by her words, falling in love with her; I'm there on the ship, hanging on for dear life in the raging storm, marvelling in awe at the giant waves that tower over the boat.
This experience started a raging flashfire. If Beecham could bring Scheherazade back to vivid, pulsing life for me, then what about other conductors? I started reading reviews, and selectively ordering Scheherazade CDs online. More recently, I found myself digging about in the secondhand section at Bath Compact Discs, presenting my heap of purchases at the counter while mumbling self-consciously about not really being some sort of Rimsky Korsakov nerd. In this way I've gathered together versions by Reiner, Kondrashin, Svetlanov, Litton, Schwarz, and Gergiev, and am currently waiting for Ansermet, Ormandy, and Stokowski. I haven't heard anything yet that challenges Beecham for the number 1 spot yet, but there are some superb versions out there, regardless. As I get to know them better I hope to add comments about them.
But I'll tell you this - to think that you've lost one of your oldest and dearest loves, and then discover, 50 years on, that you haven't, after all - that's a fine and heartwarming discovery to make.
Very interesting read. I think we all go through this sort of thing with one piece or other that for some reason captures our imaginiation, falls to side for a while, and then the magic is recaptured.
I love Scheherezade. And you have some wonderful versions. I would add the Mackerras version on Telarc, which is excellent and in demonstration quality sound to boot.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 11, 2012, 11:40:02 PM
I would add the Mackerras version on Telarc, which is excellent and in demonstration quality sound to boot.
Thanks for the tip. Mackerras is on my radar, and I'll certainly pick one up at some point.
Do you share my disappointment with Immerseel, I wonder? (It would be good to learn that it has subtle qualities that I just haven't managed to discern yet.)
Quote from: Elgarian on February 11, 2012, 11:52:03 PM
Thanks for the tip. Mackerras is on my radar, and I'll certainly pick one up at some point.
Do you share my disappointment with Immerseel, I wonder? (It would be good to learn that it has subtle qualities that I just haven't managed to discern yet.)
Sorry, I have not heard that version.
There a new complete (3CD) set of Kitezh on Naxos on its way into the shops. I wonder how that does. Wonderful work, and though I love Gergiev's version, it's far from perfect.
QuoteThe new erato
There a new complete (3CD) set of Kitezh on Naxos on its way into the shops. I wonder how that does. Wonderful work, and though I love Gergiev's version, it's far from perfect.
I don't know the Naxos version, but I love the old version conducted by Nebolssin (1956) with the wonderful Natalya Rozhdestvenskaia as Fevronia and other great voices of the Bolshoi (Petrov, Ivanovski and Tarkhov as Gritshka).
Nebolssin also conducted (and very well) a splendid version of Tsar Saltan with the great Ivan Petrov, Verbitskaia and Rechetine (1955)
Not forgetting also the best Sadko I ever heard, conducted by Golovanov, with the extraordinary tenor Nelepp and other legendary voices such as Reizen, Lisitsian and Koslovsky.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510HQcoxMOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I listened to Ormandy's Scheherazade this morning, so thought I'd jot down a few thoughts. These aren't carved in stone. It's quite possible that a second hearing would cause me to change my mind.
If I try to think of words to describe the performance, I'd be thinking of things like 'stately', 'beautiful', 'smooth', 'grand'. The third movement is lovely, but lovely in a silky and serene sort of way, rather than the bitter-sweet poignant sort of way that I tend to prefer. Not saying this isn't a valid way to go - I'm not saying what I think is best; just trying to express impressions and differences as I hear them.
Thinking next of the great climaxes - at the end of the second movement for instance, or the finale - the words I'd use are 'sweeping', 'majestic', 'epic'. This is a kind of Cinemascope Scheherazade, very enjoyable in its own terms, and if it were the only version a person had, I guess he could be happy with it. But I think he'd miss some important things: at no stage do I ever get a real sense of excitement as I do with, for example, Beecham. On board ship, with the storm raging, I get a sense of impressive 'special effects' rather than real danger. I feel there's a certain lack of forward momentum. And Scheherazade is a lovely creature but her voice doesn't quite manage to seduce me.
So Ormandy provided me with a very enjoyable 45 minutes this morning, and showed me an approach rather different to those I already know, but at the moment I don't think it's the approach I'd ever become most fond of.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lOUOosoQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The Scheherazade odyssey continues with Svetlanov and his band of Russians (of course there's a lot more than Scheherazade in this 5 CD box).
I expected scrunchy and blaring Russian brass - and I did get some of that, though perhaps not as prominently as I'd anticipated. But what really struck me was that this is a wild ride. I don't know how accurate an interpretation it is, but I get the feeling that Svetlanov was determined not to let any part of the piece seem dull or laboured. The result seems a bit rough in places, but rough in all the best ways, and I must say I love it. There's lots of excitement and wiry fiddling, and he makes the music seem more Arabian than usual. (Or do I mean Russian, really? Maybe I can't tell the difference between these differently nuanced shades of exotica.)
If I had to have only one Scheherazade, it wouldn't be this one. It seems just a bit too idiosyncratic for that. But I shall want to revisit it, often.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 17, 2012, 01:30:17 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lOUOosoQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The Scheherazade odyssey continues with Svetlanov and his band of Russians (of course there's a lot more than Scheherazade in this 5 CD box).
I expected scrunchy and blaring Russian brass - and I did get some of that, though perhaps not as prominently as I'd anticipated. But what really struck me was that this is a wild ride. I don't know how accurate an interpretation it is, but I get the feeling that Svetlanov was determined not to let any part of the piece seem dull or laboured. The result seems a bit rough in places, but rough in all the best ways, and I must say I love it. There's lots of excitement and wiry fiddling, and he makes the music seem more Arabian than usual. (Or do I mean Russian, really? Maybe I can't tell the difference between these differently nuanced shades of exotica.)
If I had to have only one Scheherazade, it wouldn't be this one. It seems just a bit too idiosyncratic for that. But I shall want to revisit it, often.
I need to add this box to my collection ...
Recently got the Svetlanov "Scheherazade" LP & am looking forward to hearing it ...
Another charming and relatively overlooked, yet quite substantial work, is the "Concert Fantasy" op.33 (1886) for violin and orchestra, lasting 16 mins. It has been recorded by Issakadze (melodiya & licensed on other labels) and Rosand (vox-turnabout), among others. It doesn´t reach the level of say, Scheherazade, in creativity, though.
Quote from: DieNacht on February 17, 2012, 10:48:51 PM
Recently got the Svetlanov "Scheherazade" LP & am looking forward to hearing it ...
Another charming and relatively overlooked, yet quite substantial work, is the "Concert Fantasy" op.33 (1886) for violin and orchestra, lasting 16 mins. It has been recorded by Issakadze (melodiya & licensed on other labels) and Rosand (vox-turnabout), among others. It doesn´t reach th elevel of say, Scheherazade, in creativity, though.
I wasn't aware of the 'Concert Fantasy' so thanks for the tip-off. I'll look out for it.
When you've listened to your Svetlanov
Scheherazade, do please come back here and tell us your impressions of it.
About the Fantasy, there's a Milstein's recording, but it wasn't the original NRK but a Kreisler arrangement (that damn Austrian guy had nothing better to do that to made arrangements and transcriptions?)
About Sheherazade,there's an very old recording by Nikolai Golovanoff with the Bolshoi Orq. The orch.was a third class one, the sound is bad, but the violin solos were made by King David, and I've never heard something so beautiful.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41mocDbL9WL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Alright. Stokowski's 1975 recording of Scheherazade with the RPO. I prepared myself for fireworks, switched on, and sat down.
Well, this has me beat. It's full of little idiosyncrasies that would be acceptable if they achieved something, but ... what, exactly? In the third movement, for example, he goes for extreme variations of loudness between alternating phrases for no sensible reason that I can discern. If it's an attempt to suggest delicate nuances of feeling, it doesn't work for me. It seems more like the blunderbuss approach to delicacy of expression. There are weird breaks of rhythm that make the music seem choppy rather than lyrical. And worst of all, through the whole 4 movements I never came close to a sense of excitement.
Now, what shocks me is what the Gramophone reviewer said back in 1977:
"a vital, electrifying and colourful reading"; "the thrust of the music is irresistible, and in a work which can very easily seem fragmented, the Stokowskian concentration and persuasiveness will be hard for anyone to resist"; "delighted by the vividness and sense of reality".
I can hardly believe we're contemplating the same recording, but there's no mistake. We are. So maybe someone out there will find this the bees' knees. Alas, I'm one of those who is not delighted by it. I think it's niggly, overcooked, sometimes disruptively arrhythmic, but mostly just plain dull (I picked up a book and read while the last movement was playing). To make Scheherazade seem dull is quite a spectacular achievement, I'd say.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 18, 2012, 09:04:08 AM
Alright. Stokowski's 1975 recording of Scheherazade with the RPO.
Alas, I'm one of those who is not delighted by it. I think it's niggly, overcooked, sometimes disruptively arrhythmic, but mostly just plain dull ...
Me too.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61GBpxqCtvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
One of the aspects of Rimsky Korsakov's work that I've never been involved with is his operas. I've had my eye on the Gergiev box for a while, thinking 'Ooh, there's all that to explore sometime'. But then in Bath Compact Discs a couple of weeks ago I found this recording of Mlada, and took the plunge. I listened to the first disc today.
Well, I am really flummoxed. I can't hear any tunes. Oh, there are some tuneful choral bits, and orchestral bits (particularly the famous passage in Act 2 Scene 3), but it's as if all tunefulness has been forbidden as long as only one person is singing. Now this is Rimsky Korsakov, the great tunesmith. So I can't understand this. Why does it sound so much like Klingon opera?
I could understand it if I were an opera newbie, but my shelves are laden with opera recordings, and I've listened my way through the whole Ring cycle more times than I can remember. Why is Rimsky Korsakov beyond me? Worst of it is, there are two more discs full of this stuff in this package - I can't imagine being able to face listening to those. And it looks now as though buying the Gergiev box would be downright foolish. Unless, unless, Mlada just happens to be a particularly difficult opera to tackle? Does anyone have consoling words to offer?
Quote from: Elgarian on February 17, 2012, 01:30:17 PM
The Scheherazade odyssey continues with Svetlanov and his band of Russians (of course there's a lot more than Scheherazade in this 5 CD box).
Wow, that sounds like the exact opposite of Svetlanov's interpretation on BBC Legends with the LSO. The BBC Svetlanov is more akin to - well, it's almost Celibidachian in its slowness, titanic weight, and sensuality. It weighs in at 50 minutes and feels like a Major Event.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 19, 2012, 11:27:58 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61GBpxqCtvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
One of the aspects of Rimsky Korsakov's work that I've never been involved with is his operas. I've had my eye on the Gergiev box for a while, thinking 'Ooh, there's all that to explore sometime'. But then in Bath Compact Discs a couple of weeks ago I found this recording of Mlada, and took the plunge. I listened to the first disc today.
Well, I am really flummoxed. I can't hear any tunes. Oh, there are some tuneful choral bits, and orchestral bits (particularly the famous passage in Act 2 Scene 3), but it's as if all tunefulness has been forbidden as long as only one person is singing. Now this is Rimsky Korsakov, the great tunesmith. So I can't understand this. Why does it sound so much like Klingon opera?
I could understand it if I were an opera newbie, but my shelves are laden with opera recordings, and I've listened my way through the whole Ring cycle more times than I can remember. Why is Rimsky Korsakov beyond me? Worst of it is, there are two more discs full of this stuff in this package - I can't imagine being able to face listening to those. And it looks now as though buying the Gergiev box would be downright foolish. Unless, unless, Mlada just happens to be a particularly difficult opera to tackle? Does anyone have consoling words to offer?
Hmm. I have this in my cart at mdt as they have a sale. So I cannot comment on this release in particular. But I have some comments that may help. His operas are not wall to wall tunes. I think an opera like Sadko is closer to what you are looking for. It has a number of luxurious tunes - very much what I think you would expect. But even here, it is a bit episodic, and his operas can sometimes lack drama. He also had a different approach for human characters and fantasy characters, which helps emphasize this, where the sound of the music is different for the different characters. On top of that, Mlada is less well know for tunes (with the exception of one, though perhaps I am being too harsh).
I think you need to listen to again, but need to approach it not expecting his orchestral works. This may disappoint you if you want more of the same, but there are some riches here nonethless. It may be that an opera suites disc will be more to your liking.
Quote from: Brian on February 19, 2012, 11:49:21 AM
Wow, that sounds like the exact opposite of Svetlanov's interpretation on BBC Legends with the LSO. The BBC Svetlanov is more akin to - well, it's almost Celibidachian in its slowness, titanic weight, and sensuality. It weighs in at 50 minutes and feels like a Major Event.
Interesting! And thanks for this Brian. I already have my eye on that Prom recording. It's next on my list when I have money again.
I second ukrneal - I would go to Sadko, Tsar Saltan, Kitezh, The Golden Cockerel, maybe even The Snow Maiden before Mlada, which I think is an early work. I have yet to be really blown away by a Rimsky opera, but while less overtly melodic than Tchaikovsky's I find them to be just as good.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 19, 2012, 11:53:06 AM
I think you need to listen to again, but need to approach it not expecting his orchestral works. This may disappoint you if you want more of the same, but there are some riches here nonethless. It may be that an opera suites disc will be more to your liking.
Not too sure about the 'listening again' suggestion - well, not for a while, anyway. (You should have seen the grimaces on my wife's face while the CD was playing).
I have most of the well-known orchestral suites already, and of course based my expectations on their tunefulness - which I think is partly why I've come so unexpectedly unstuck.
After reading Brian's observation about the duration of the Svetlanov/LSO performance, I put my anorak on and burrowed, nerdlike, into my pile of Scheherazade CDs to put together this list of timings:
Batiz (Philharmonia) 41:33
Ansermet (Suisse Romande) 43:15
Ormandy (Philadelphia) 44:06
Kondrashin (Concertgebouw) 44:16
Stokowski (Chicago) 44:23
Reiner (Chicago) 44:30
Svetlanov (URSS) 44:49
Beecham (RPO) 45:41
Dutoit (RPO) 45:44
Gergiev (Kirov) 45:51
Schwarz (Seattle) 45:52
Litton (LPO) 45:54
And we can add to that, Brian's Svetlanov recording with the LSO
Svetlanov (LSO) 48:52
Some observations:
1. I find it hard to believe the Batiz timing and wonder if he made cuts somewhere, as well as playing rather fast. (It may be fast but I still find it feels rather pedestrian.)
2. 'Wildness' (which is the word I use to describe Svetlanov's performance with his Russian guys) doesn't seem particularly related to speed. It's more about perceived attitude, I think. (In terms of timing he's comfortably in the middle of the list.)
3. I'm shocked to see that Litton's is the slowest in my collection. It didn't seem at all slow when I listened to it, and a revisiting is in order. (By contrast, Schwarz's 'felt' slow and ponderous, yet times out pretty much the same.)
Quote from: Elgarian on February 20, 2012, 12:22:12 AM
And we can add to that, Brian's Svetlanov recording with the LSO
Svetlanov (LSO) 48:52
And if you want to add these:
Järvi (Scottish National) 45:30
Previn (LSO) 46:05
Rostropovich (O de Paris) 47:43
Celibidache (RSO Stuttgart) 49:59
Celibidache (Munich Phil) 54:11
For those who know me, you won't have trouble guessing my favorite Scheherazade 8)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 20, 2012, 01:42:18 AM
And if you want to add these:
Järvi (Scottish National) 45:30
Previn (LSO) 46:05
Rostropovich (O de Paris) 47:43
Celibidache (RSO Stuttgart) 49:59
Celibidache (Munich Phil) 54:11
For those who know me, you won't have trouble guessing my favorite Scheherazade 8)
Sarge
Hmm. Let me think....
One more timing (though I think this is not as useful as movement by movement):
Mackerras 45.06.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 20, 2012, 02:02:30 AM
One more timing (though I think this is not as useful as movement by movement):
Celi/Munich 12:04 15:47 12:11 14:09
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 20, 2012, 01:42:18 AM
Celibidache (Munich Phil) 54:11
Blimey Sarge! Much slower and it'd have to be a 2CD set!
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 20, 2012, 02:02:30 AM
I think this is not as useful as movement by movement)
You're right, but I thought I didn't have enough time going spare. Now I think about it though, it wouldn't have taken me much longer. I may have another shot.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 20, 2012, 04:32:26 AM
You're right, but I thought I didn't have enough time going spare. Now I think about it though, it wouldn't have taken me much longer. I may have another shot.
Oh I wasn't trying to criticize, but I see it came out that way - was trying to say it more as a fact. I totally understand - we all have lives outside of here.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 20, 2012, 04:38:26 AM
Oh I wasn't trying to criticize, but I see it came out that way.
No, it didn't, Neal. It was a pertinent comment, accepted as such, and agreed with in the best of humour, I promise.
This was once a sensible post, but then I edited it by accident and couldn't recover the original. In the original, I had presented the individual movement timings for my discs, but I felt that I did so with such once-in-a-lifetime panache, wit, enthusiasm and profound insight, that its loss seems like a personal tragedy of magnitude comparable to ... oh, to the loss of an empty cereal packet. At least.
Still, we keep on, under adversity.
Järvi (Scottish National) 45:30 (10:18; 12:12; 10:53; 12:06)
Previn (LSO) 46:05 (11:04; 11:40; 11:05; 12:19)
Rostropovich (O de Paris) 47:43 (11:30; 12:55; 10:27; 12:49)
Celibidache (RSO Stuttgart) 49:59 [10:53; 14:31; 11:18; 13:17)
Quote from: Elgarian on February 20, 2012, 06:49:17 AM
[Does anyone know how to line up the numbers in vertical columns?]
I think Opus106 does. He did it in the Haydn thread a few times if you want to search for an example. Or you could PM him.
Mackerras LSO 45:06 (10:03; 11:56; 10:11; 12:56).
Thanks Sarge & Neal.
Batiz (Philharmonia) 41:33 (9:13; 11:09; 9:52; 11:19)
Ansermet (Suisse Romande) 43:15 (10:07; 11:09; 9:34; 12:25)
Ormandy (Philadelphia) 44:06 (10:17; 11:41; 9:46; 12:22)
Kondrashin (Concertgebouw) 44:16 (10:10; 12:08; 9:37; 12:21)
Stokowski (Chicago) 44:23 (9:33; 11:19; 11:21; 12:00)
Reiner (Chicago) 44:30 (9:06; 11:35; 12:02; 11:47)
Svetlanov (URSS) 44:49 (10:41; 11:37; 10:13; 12:18)
Mackerras LSO 45:06 (10:03; 11:56; 10:11; 12:56)
Järvi (Scottish National) 45:30 (10:18; 12:12; 10:53; 12:06)
Beecham (RPO) 45:41 (10:04; 12:02; 10:42; 12:51)
Dutoit (RPO) 45:44 (10:45; 11:46; 10:36; 12:37)
Gergiev (Kirov) 45:51 (10:26; 12:26; 10:55; 12:04)
Schwarz (Seattle) 45:52 (10:46; 11:34; 10:43; 12:48)
Litton (LPO) 45:54 (10:46; 12:06; 10:46; 12:16)
Previn (LSO) 46:05 (11:04; 11:40; 11:05; 12:19)
Rostropovich (O de Paris) 47:43 (11:30; 12:55; 10:27; 12:49)
Celibidache (RSO Stuttgart) 49:59 [10:53; 14:31; 11:18; 13:17)
Celibidache (Munich Phil) 54:11 (12:04; 15:47; 12:11; 14:09)
A few more:
Karajan BPO 46:27 (10:02; 12:50; 10:40; 12:55)
Beecham RPO 44:20 (9:39; 11:47; 10:15; 12:39)
Temirkanov NYPO 47:52 (11:06; 13:10; 11:10; 12:26)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 20, 2012, 07:25:29 AM
Beecham RPO 44:20 (9:39; 11:47; 10:15; 12:39)
I take it this is an earlier Beecham recording? (Mine is 1958, stereo.)
Some more 8):
Silvestri, Bournemouth SO circa 45:25 (10:19, 11:51, 10:52, 12:24)
Muti, Philadelphia circa 45:05 (10:04, 12:31, 10:16, 12:14)(LP timings)
M.Gould, Morton Gould SO circa 43:25 (9:49, 11:16, 10:30, 11:50)(LP timings)
Chalabala, Czech PO (no timings yet; LP only)
Scherchen, Wiener StaatsOper Orchestra circa 46:35 (11:50, 11:09, 10:12, 13:22)
Golovanov, D.Oistrakh, SO (you-tube) circa 43:45 (10:01, 11:40; 10:49; 11:12)
Quote from: Elgarian on February 20, 2012, 08:34:02 AM
I take it this is an earlier Beecham recording? (Mine is 1958, stereo.)
I'd guess so. Not sure what year it is from though. It is a download (my only one) and that is all the info I have, though sound is definitely older.
Quote from: DieNacht on February 20, 2012, 08:41:58 AM
Muti, Philadelphia circa 45:05 (10:04, 12:31, 10:16, 12:14)(LP timings)
What's the Muti like? I've been wondering about acquiring that.
(I'll let all these extras keep coming in and then produce a quasi-definitive list at some point, to include all we've gathered.)
Quote from: Elgarian on February 20, 2012, 11:48:51 AM
What's the Muti like? I've been wondering about acquiring that.
(I'll let all these extras keep coming in and then produce a quasi-definitive list at some point, to include all we've gathered.)
It´s been a long time since I heard it; I´m going through a rather nostalgic trip as regards performances of this work these days, due to exceptionally cheap LP sales some elder recordings are available. Today I bought the
Rostropovich LP presenting a Chagall cover illustration allegedly made for the recording occasion, but it was not in the Angel edition which should specify the Chagall story a bit more and which is also more attractive visually.
I liked
Svetlanov, it´s the only distinctively Russian performance I have got (Golovanov´s on you-t is on top of the list for a listen though). "Scheherazade" is Svetlanov in good shape, like he is in Kalinnikov´s 1st, the early melodiya recording of Balakirev`s "Tamar", Prokofiev´s "Alexander Nevsky" etc., to mention some highlights. Fine playing and delicate phrasing in the strings, and good sound (unlike his thin-sounding "Sacre" which I recently got and which was disappointing). I imagine the CD version must have even more spacious and impressive sound.
As regards
Stokowski/RPO I too remember it as less dramatic, though having some moments. But facing the competition - it is indeed a crowded field - you´re probably right in pointing to its faults. I wasn`t aware of that he has made one with Chicago SO; it might very well be better, Stokowski recordings can be so different from each other ...
I remember the Muti as good and impressive as regards the sound, but don´t really remember any details ...
This is a temporary post which I'll continue to modify, gradually putting the list into table form. (I took a peek at one of Navneeth's tables and copied his system. Don't imagine for a moment that I have any clue about what I'm doing, but it seems to work. It's painfully slow though, I can say that!)
| Batiz (Philharmonia) | | | | | |
| Leinsdorf (Concert Arts) | | | | | |
| Ansermet (Suisse Romande) | | | | | |
| M.Gould (Morton Gould SO) LP | | | | | |
| Golovanov (D.Oistrakh, SO) YT | | | | | |
| Ormandy (Philadelphia) | | | | | |
| Kondrashin (Concertgebouw) | | | | | |
| Beecham (RPO, early date) | | | | | |
| Stokowski (Chicago) | | | | | |
| Reiner (Chicago) | | | | | |
| Svetlanov (URSS) | | | | | |
| Muti ( Philadelphia) LP | | | | | |
| Mackerras (LSO) | | | | | |
| Silvestri (Bournemouth SO) | | | | | |
| Järvi (Scottish National) | | | | | |
| Beecham (RPO, 1958) | | | | | |
| Dutoit (RPO) | | | | | |
| Gergiev (Kirov) | | | | | |
| Schwarz (Seattle) | | | | | |
| Litton (LPO) | | | | | |
| Previn (LSO) | | | | | |
| Karajan BPO | | | | | |
| Scherchen (Wiener StaatsOper Orch) LP | | | | | |
| Rostropovich (O de Paris) | | | | | |
| Temirkanov NYPO | | | | | |
| Celibidache (RSO Stuttgart) | | | | | |
| Celibidache (Munich Phil) | | | | | |
Quote from: DieNacht on February 20, 2012, 12:13:12 PM
It´s been a long time since I heard it; I´m going through a rather nostalgic trip as regards performances of this work these days, due to exceptionally cheap LP sales some elder recordings are available. Today I bought the Rostropovich LP presenting a Chagall cover illustration allegedly made for the recording occasion, but it was not in the Angel edition which should specify the Chagall story a bit more and which is also more attractive visually.
I liked Svetlanov, it´s the only distinctively Russian performance I have got (Golovanov´s on you-t is on top of the list for a listen though). "Scheherazade" is Svetlanov in good shape, like he is in Kalinnikov´s 1st, the early melodiya recording of Balakirev`s "Tamar", Prokofiev´s "Alexander Nevsky" etc., to mention some highlights. Fine playing and delicate phrasing in the strings, and good sound (unlike his thin-sounding "Sacre" which I recently got and which was disappointing). I imagine the CD version must have even more spacious and impressive sound.
As regards Stokowski/RPO I too remember it as less dramatic, though having some moments. But facing the competition - it is indeed a crowded field - you´re probably right in pointing to its faults. I wasn`t aware of that he has made one with Chicago SO; it might very well be better, Stokowski recordings can be so different from each other ...
I remember the Muti as good and impressive as regards the sound, but don´t really remember any details ...
I recall reading that at the time Muti was very deliberately recording blockbuster versions of the popular classics, so it could be quite a bit of fun.
Incidentally, I recently discovered that Rozhdestvensky did a version of
Scheherazade as part of a series of 'The 50 best Classics' or something. Of course it's long out of print and I could find only one or two copies of it on CD, but I've decided to give it a try and am awaiting its arrival. I love Rozhdestvensky's approach to Sibelius symphonies, and although this is of course a very different kettle of fish, I'm hoping some of the raw blaringness that he expresses there might make for an interesting take on
Scheherazade.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 20, 2012, 12:25:00 PM
I recall reading that at the time Muti was very deliberately recording blockbuster versions of the popular classics, so it could be quite a bit of fun.
Incidentally, I recently discovered that Rozhdestvensky did a version of Scheherazade as part of a series of 'The 50 best Classics' or something. Of course it's long out of print and I could find only one or two copies of it on CD, but I've decided to give it a try and am awaiting its arrival. I love Rozhdestvensky's approach to Sibelius symphonies, and although this is of course a very different kettle of fish, I'm hoping some of the raw blaringness that he expresses there might make for an interesting take on Scheherazade.
It would be interesting to know the year of the Rozhdestvensky recording (a novelty to me); his early recordings can be very temperamental, whereas the later ones vary more in the attitude to the works ...
Quote from: Elgarian on February 20, 2012, 12:16:25 PMThis is a temporary post which I'll continue to modify, gradually putting the list into table form. (I took a peek at one of Navneeth's tables and copied his system. Don't imagine for a moment that I have any clue about what I'm doing, but it seems to work. It's painfully slow though, I can say that!)
Since the forum recognises multiple spaces in posts, you can use that as a quick-and-dirty way to get a similar result.
Quote from: DieNacht on February 20, 2012, 12:30:06 PM
It would be interesting to know the year of the Rozhdestvensky recording (a novelty to me); his early recordings can be very temperamental, whereas the later ones vary more in the attitude to the works ...
I'll let you know when the CD arrives.
Quote from: MishaK on February 20, 2012, 06:03:20 PM
You know Ormandy omitted several bars, right?
No, but thanks for the information. (It's generally safe to assume that I know very little!)
Quote from: eyeresist on February 20, 2012, 01:48:57 PM
Since the forum recognises multiple spaces in posts, you can use that as a quick-and-dirty way to get a similar result.
I've tried that, and I can get a kind of result that way, but the spacing isn't consistent (I presume the font is proportional, so each character occupies a slightly different space). So I end up with slightly wonky columns all the way down.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71Uvl9RRzYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I was surprised to discover that Litton's Scheherazade was one of the slower ones, and so I listened to it again today (third time). I find I'm quite lost for words. I really love this interpretation, though I can't say why. It doesn't sparkle in the way that Beecham does; it doesn't fly wildly like Svetlanov; it doesn't have the perfection of Kondrashin, or the smooth Cinemascope glossiness of Ormandy. It just suits me, almost perfectly. It's Romantic in all the ways I like; it has real weight in the climaxes. The wind whistles with just the right force, and the waves gather and crash mightily when they need to. The Prince and Princess are meltingly beautiful without being insipid. But I really haven't a clue just what it is that makes this feel so satisfying, compared with others.
Twenty years ago Gramophone damned it with faint praise ('exciting without being electrifying'), and I can see how one might say that - but it's not the whole truth. At least, not for me. It has a warmth; I get an impression of great affection for the music; I feel that affection myself. It breaks no new ground; it doesn't make me rethink any aspect of Scheherazade. It just fits me like a glove.
I'd like to think that at the end of this Arabian Odyssey, I'll be able to sort my Scheherazade discs into the 'indispensables' and the, well, 'not indispensables'. I've a fair way to go yet, but so far, Beecham, Svetlanov (with his Russian band), and now Litton have made it into the ranks of definite keepers.
This thread has rekindled my interest, long dormant, in R-K. I too had an early experience with Scheherazade and can almost attest to that work being my primary introduction to classical music in general. But, it has been decades since I have listened to any music from this composer.
I am sorely tempted to dive in again with the operas.
I found these two complementary box sets, both featuring Russian performers, which amazingly do not have any duplication as far as I can tell and are priced very nicely:
[asin]B004I4HCT6[/asin]
[asin]B001UUNAJM[/asin]
Yes, I am sorely tempted.
:)
Quote from: Arnold on February 22, 2012, 11:37:33 AM
I am sorely tempted.
Well we know what Oscar Wilde would advise:
"The only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it."
Quote from: Elgarian on February 21, 2012, 12:59:46 AMI've tried that, and I can get a kind of result that way, but the spacing isn't consistent (I presume the font is proportional, so each character occupies a slightly different space). So I end up with slightly wonky columns all the way down.
You can change the font to a monospace one, e.g. Courier.
Quote from: eyeresist on February 22, 2012, 04:38:55 PM
You can change the font to a monospace one, e.g. Courier.
Ah yes! Thanks. I've just been trying that out, and I can see that eventually it would be possible to sort everything out that way, but I find there are still some weird effects, caused by the fact that what you see in the input panel isn't what you see in the final post. I may as well stick to the system I've started I think - though in any case I'm pressed for time at the moment and it may well lie unchanged for a week or two.
Ah, I have been misled. I'd ordered this version of Scheherazade believing it to be conducted by Rozhdestvensky.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nXZPVSebL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Actually Rozhdestvensky does conduct the Russian Easter Overture on this CD (with the O de Paris), but Scheherazade is conducted by Leinsdorf with the Concert Arts Orch. No matter - it was a very cheap purchase, and it'll be interesting to see what Leinsdorf makes of it anyway. (Information on the packaging is sparse, but after scooting around the Internet I think I'm right in concluding that this was originally recorded in 1960.)
I recommend this one:
(http://s7.postimage.org/4rdu9w3gb/Rimsky_Korsakov_Schereazade_Op35_vinyl_LP.jpg)
and although this has nothing to do with R-K, you may wish to try this, too:
http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1606892 (http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1606892)
... the band are good instrumentalists, and Annie Haslam has an excellent voice.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nXZPVSebL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
This 1960 Leinsdorf recording is so hard to find that it's not worth writing much about it - but I've listened to it, so I may as well comment.
It starts by setting itself an obstacle that's not easy to overcome subsequently. You know those opening bars - those powerful chords, which (I always suppose) represent the implacably threatening menace of Scheherazade's husband. Well, in this performance they aren't very threatening, they're not implacable, and they offer about as much menace as a bad-tempered wave of a feather duster. On the one hand, this is the low point in the whole recording; on the other, it gets things off to such a bad start that it's hard to forgive it.
Second problem is the speed. Like Batiz's performance, this one clocks in at under 42 minutes total, and, like Batiz's, it sounds rushed. Not exciting. Rushed. The fast tempo suggests to me (others may read it differently) not so much an enthusiasm to unfold the exciting tale, as a keenness to get home early for tea.
This is not to say that the performance is hopeless - it really does have its moments. For example the finale of the second movement (always a key point, for me) builds up the tension to the climax spectacularly well. And despite some really rather plodding passages where I'd hope for more delicacy, there's also plenty to disarm, in between. So it's not a write-off; but with so many cracking versions to choose from, I can't think of a really good reason for settling on this.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 29, 2012, 11:41:33 AM
This 1960 Leinsdorf recording is so hard to find that it's not worth writing much about it - but I've listened to it, so I may as well comment.
You listen, so we don't have to ;)
Danke for the Rimsky posts, I enjoy them. Do you feel anything even middlingly strong for his other comparable works - Antar for example?
Quote from: Lethevich on February 29, 2012, 12:02:20 PM
Do you feel anything even middlingly strong for his other comparable works - Antar for example?
Antar is pretty good, isn't it? I'm by no means impervious to it. And the
Easter Festival Overture, though there's one of the tunes - oh, a really lovely one that comes in very early and reappears a couple of times - that I always feel is seriously underdeveloped. He states this theme and I imagine he's going to do something amazing with it later, but he doesn't. (I know he had a particular agenda with this piece, so it's not fair of me to ask for it to be other than it is; but still, I do.)
But I've never heard anything yet that has the ravishing narrative, melodic, and richly textured orchestral dynamic qualities that
Scheherazade has. I can't begin to express how thrilled I am to have rediscovered it, after thinking I'd worn it out long ago. I'm still happily stumbling among the various versions I've recently accumulated, completely unable to decide which is 'best' (thank goodness), and really just enjoying the quiddity of each.
It may
seem that I've been listening to nothing but
Scheherazade for weeks, but I'm not quite so far gone as that, yet. It's just that I haven't been posting often, and the only interesting things I've had to
say have been about
Scheherazade; which isn't the same thing.
I've now finished tabulating the timings for
Scheherazade that have been contributed so far, and thought I'd repost the final table here (and maybe delete some of my untidy 'work in progress' clutter earlier in the thread).
If there are more, just post 'em, and I'll update the list. One day.
Scheherazade timings (Total, followed by each of the four movements)
| Batiz (Philharmonia) | | | | | |
| Leinsdorf (Concert Arts) | | | | | |
| Ansermet (Suisse Romande) | | | | | |
| M.Gould (Morton Gould SO) LP | | | | | |
| Golovanov (D.Oistrakh, SO) YT | | | | | |
| Ormandy (Philadelphia) | | | | | |
| Kondrashin (Concertgebouw) | | | | | |
| Beecham (RPO, early date) | | | | | |
| Stokowski (Chicago) | | | | | |
| Reiner (Chicago) | | | | | |
| Svetlanov (URSS) | | | | | |
| Muti ( Philadelphia) LP | | | | | |
| Mackerras (LSO) | | | | | |
| Silvestri (Bournemouth SO) | | | | | |
| Järvi (Scottish National) | | | | | |
| Beecham (RPO, 1958) | | | | | |
| Dutoit (RPO) | | | | | |
| Gergiev (Kirov) | | | | | |
| Schwarz (Seattle) | | | | | |
| Litton (LPO) | | | | | |
| Previn (LSO) | | | | | |
| Karajan BPO | | | | | |
| Scherchen (Wiener StaatsOper Orch) LP | | | | | |
| Rostropovich (O de Paris) | | | | | |
| Temirkanov NYPO | | | | | |
| Celibidache (RSO Stuttgart) | | | | | |
| Celibidache (Munich Phil) | | | | | |
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CeZULY3aL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
This will be my 3000th post on GMG, and it feels right to use it to return again to Rimsky-Korsakov.
I can't claim any originality in singing the praises of Reiner's Scheherazade. Like Beecham's, it's been so long recognised as a classic; also like Beecham's, there's no need to make any allowances for the recording quality, despite both being recorded in the 1950s. They're both fine, open, dynamic recordings, and I don't think anyone need hesitate on that account.
From the very opening chords, powerful, menacing, and implacable, you feel you could be in for something very special, and at no stage afterwards does Reiner disappoint. He's the complete master of the ebb and flow of the music; of its lyrical beauty; of its narrative power. I can't find anything in his performance that doesn't deeply satisfy.
But that's not the whole story. There's one particular characteristic of this performance that I really love, but which is hard to describe. He continually makes tiny adjustments of tempo that are slightly unexpected but which, in their place, feel entirely right, and add to the sense of dramatic unfolding. I often have the impression that a note comes in a little later than expected here; or extends for slightly longer than expected there. I suppose these are nuances that are too small to register as changes from the score (I wouldn't know that), and yet they make a great difference to the perceived dynamics of the music. With a piece so very, very familiar as Scheherazade, there's always the risk of any performance seeming stale, but these idiosyncratic, affectionate, and expressive adjustments that Reiner makes pretty well rule out that possibility. Reading this through again, I fear I've given the impression of something pernickety or discomforting, but that's not the case at all. It's a performance of tremendous power and sensitivity, bringing (I would say) a unique perspective to the music that I think I could never tire of.
So my personal list of desert island Scheherazades has now increased to four, so far: Beecham, Svetlanov (with Russian band), Litton, and now Reiner.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Y4prrzasL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Two of the dangers of this extensive Scheherazade journey I've embarked upon are, first, the risk of getting stale, and, second, the possibility that I might search so hard to find differences between the recordings that I overemphasise them. I don't yet feel any sense of staleness, however; and I think the differences I'm hearing are significant differences to me. They may of course not be very significant to others.
Anyway, for good or ill, Dutoit is now up for discussion. This is quite a recent recording (2010-ish). And if someone bought this with a view to having just one recording of Scheherazade in their collection, they could do a lot worse. They may even fancy themselves close to Total Scheherazade Happiness, and they may be right - as long as they never hear Beecham or Reiner, which might upset the apple cart a bit.
I have the feeling that this performance starts quite well, but gets steadily better. Certainly the final movement lacks nothing in excitement, and Dutoit (and the recording engineers) get a big, warm, impressive and exciting driving sound from the orchestra. It's a good performance; it won't shake the roots of your understanding of the music, but you'll enjoy the ride.
I hope I'm not imagining this, but I think I detect some interesting and unusual playing from the solo violinist, Clio Gould. A female solo violinist, no less. I think (I haven't checked) this is the only female solo violinist I've heard playing Scheherazade, and I wonder if this accounts for the effect I think I'm noticing: against an orchestral performance which basically takes few risks, the violin passages sometimes seem quite strikingly individualistic. Does Clio Gould have a greater empathy with Scheherazade herself than a man could manage, merely by being a man? Or am I just being fanciful? [For what it's worth, I hadn't noticed the gender of the violinist until after I'd noticed the idiosyncrasies I've mentioned.] At any rate, this thought is going to keep me going back to this performance a few more times yet, at least, if only to listen more intently to the solo violin parts.
[One last thought - The Russian Easter Festival Overture that fills out this disc is really deliciously, heart-meltingly played; this could be my favourite performance of the piece.]
Many good recordings of Sheherazade were already listed in the thread. But I believe I should also mention Pierre Monteux.
There are 2 recordings of Scheherazade by Pierre Monteux – the first (rec 1942) with the San Francisco SO and the latter (rec 1957) with the London SO. They are both exciting performances. The San Francisco is much less transparent but the tension is amazing, with immaginative colors, surprising details and wonderful panache.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ENVPwyj8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://api.ning.com/files/U4oVgKZNaeDOqdmar9ceI5KNWJO6*UVBJvJxqao8kbNhkSEJlVVRgDvb*4YO34ZmYDj8IKkBgKjCONLMjYXD0eibBFzter6B/Monteux.jpg) (http://cover7.cduniverse.com/CDUCoverArt/Music/Large/23/6697523.jpg)
Well, well, well. A couple of days ago Muti's Scheherazade dropped onto the doormat:
(http://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/products-190/5747512.jpg)
I'd ordered this, to be honest, with only mild interest. It cost me £2.99, post free. I had no great expectations. I put it into the player, picked up my book, and began to read, not anticipating that my reading would be much disturbed. In any case, I've listened to far too many Scheherazades in recent weeks. I must be suffering to some extent from Rimsky fatigue - right?
I lasted less than 5 minutes before putting the book down. I'm having difficulty pinpointing what it is about this performance that so captivates me, but captivate me it most certainly does. The orchestral sound is wonderfully and warmly spacious. The very sound of it makes me think of balmy Arabian evenings. Solo instruments seem to sing with exquisite clarity against this background like birdsong in the sultan's garden. But over and through all this is a sense of romantic lyricism and dramatic responsiveness that I find I can accept without question and allow it to carry me along. As I write that, I realise that I'm in danger of making it seem a bit wishy-washy, but oh no: the second movement, for example, is full of tension, strained to just the right degree, and then released with perfect timing. The climactic ending of the 2nd movement is simply superb. It makes me want to punch the air, turn up the volume, open the window, and frighten the neighbours with it.
Three quid, for this stunning recording? Could be the best bargain basement value-for-money Scheherazade on the market. This joins my list of keepers and gets glued in for good. It could even challenge Beecham for my desert island Scheherazade choice (never thought that would be possible). And if I were able to conduct an orchestra (in my dreams!), then this is the kind of Scheherazade interpretation that I would be wanting to present. Oh yes.
I have 8 or 10 recordings of Schehrezade. It's one of my favorites. I've heard most of the versions mentioned here, but the best I've heard is Previn. I stumbled across it in a used bin. It's been out of print for years. Perfect!
Quote from: Elgarian on March 09, 2012, 01:27:12 PMI'm having difficulty pinpointing what it is about this performance that so captivates me, but captivate me it most certainly does. The orchestral sound is wonderfully and warmly spacious. The very sound of it makes me think of balmy Arabian evenings. Solo instruments seem to sing with exquisite clarity against this background like birdsong in the sultan's garden.
Well, EMI's recordings of the Philharmonia tend to sound pretty awesome! I will have to keep an eye out for this one.
Well well well. Fancy this. I've been hoping throughout my Scheherazade explorations to find on CD the recording that originally enchanted me (on LP) nearly 50 years ago: Kletzki with the Philharmonia, and Hugh Bean on violin:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dCoaftIaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I think maybe it was never transferred to CD. Certainly I can't find one. But I discovered the other day that it can be had as an Amazon download:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005Q3SWSS/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1338019663&sr=1-1-catcorr (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005Q3SWSS/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1338019663&sr=1-1-catcorr).
I'm really not interested in downloading music, but in this case beggars couldn't be choosers; and Amazon had given me some promotional downloading points, which would otherwise be wasted, so I took the plunge. The experiment cost less than £2, so nothing to lose. Burned the tracks onto CD, took it into the garden, and sat in the sunshine, prepared to be ravished by Kletzki's Scheherazade.
Well there was always a chance that my memory had deceived me into elevating this ('my first Scheherazade') to a status it didn't really deserve; but no, it really is a smashing performance. Maybe not quite up to Beecham, Svetlanov or Muti, but I certainly hadn't been deceived as a mere stripling. Even so, at the end I felt rather flattened. Not because of the performance, but because of the recording quality. This was obviously transferred from a vinyl LP. And it showed, in the continuous surface rustle apparent in the quiet bits, spits and pops, lack of dynamic range, and slightly unpleasant 'boxy' sound. I doubt if I shall want to listen to this very often. Despite the performance, I can't recommend this download , for these very reasons.
Curiously, I don't have this problem with recordings from 78 (eg Elgar's conducted stuff) because I can approach it differently; it doesn't offer anything like a hifi experience, and one can settle for that. But a bad transfer from vinyl does raise hifi expectations - and then goes on and on disappointing, to exhaustion.
For the record, Kletzki's timings are 10.24, 11.14, 10.31 and 12.20. (44.29 altogether.)
Chalabala´s recording is now on a first-CD issue, a twofer for one cd´s price or an mp3 at Amazon.de
Timings are:
10.09 11.32 11.33 12:20
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51fIqAxPzaL._SS500_.jpg)
EDIT: This is the early Chalabala-recording from 1953 in mono. He also made a stereo version. I´m beginning to wonder whether my LP version which clearly states "stereo" by the same forces is in fact this 1953 recording "restored". The sound is very spacious and clear, yet not very differentiated between the loudspeakers, so I guess that is the case.
95% dedicated to Sherhazade. Seem that as almost always happen, you don't know or don't care about chamber music. NRK string quartet and sextet, his piano and winds quintet and his huge piano trio don't mean nothing to you? And what about the movements he wrote for the collective string quartet works in honor to their protector Mitrofan Belaiev?
Quote from: carlos on May 26, 2012, 03:31:41 PM
95% dedicated to Sherhazade. Seem that as almost always happen, you don't know or don't care about chamber music. NRK string quartet and sextet, his piano and winds quintet and his huge piano trio don't mean nothing to you? And what about the movements he wrote for the collective string quartet works in honor to their protector Mitrofan Belaiev?
The focus on
Scheherazade has arisen because I've been (with the help of my friends here) engaging in an exploration of the various recordings of that particular work. For the explanation, see here (#56):
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4892.msg600643.html#msg600643 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4892.msg600643.html#msg600643)
I'd add that I find
Scheherazade almost inexhaustible, so I don't see these extended discussions of its recorded interpretations as in any way reprehensible. Rather, the music itself invites and rewards such attention.
I've dipped a toe into the operas but find them difficult to get into, much to my regret. But I'd surely appreciate some comment on the other works by R-K that I'm not familiar with (such as the chamber works you mention), and warmly invite you to say more about them.
.[asin]B0007INY4E[/asin]
Best I've heard of both pieces.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 27, 2012, 06:12:21 AM
.[asin]B0007INY4E[/asin]
Best I've heard of both pieces.
Fascinating! Of all the
Scheherazades I've tried, the only one I couldn't get on with at all was Stokowski's!
Which goes to show, as I've said before - how lucky we are to have such a wide diversity of interpretations available that there's something to suit everyone.
Quote from: Elgarian on May 27, 2012, 07:57:39 AM
Fascinating! Of all the Scheherazades I've tried, the only one I couldn't get on with at all was Stokowski's!
Which goes to show, as I've said before - how lucky we are to have such a wide diversity of interpretations available that there's something to suit everyone.
This is very true, Elgarian. Which is why I also try to never label a recording as "definitive" because I don't think that exists. Different strokes for different folks. ;D
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 27, 2012, 08:02:31 AM
This is very true, Elgarian. Which is why I also try to never label a recording as "definitive" because I don't think that exists. Different strokes for different folks. ;D
Emphatically yes. I rejoice in your choice!
Quote from: DieNacht on May 26, 2012, 05:10:42 AM
Chalabala´s recording is now on a first-CD issue, a twofer for one cd´s price or an mp3 at Amazon.de
Timings are:
10.09 11.32 11.33 12:20
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51fIqAxPzaL._SS500_.jpg)
This sounds like an interesting recording. Czech Philharmonic is probably the best orchestra in central/eastern Europe ...
Quote from: Coopmv on May 27, 2012, 08:14:55 AM
This sounds like an interesting recording. Czech Philharmonic is probably the best orchestra in central/eastern Europe ...
I'm tempted myself, though the recording was (I think) made in the mid-1950s, and the samples I've heard are mono; and so I think I might end up just listening to it once, admiring it, then leaving it on the shelf.
Concerning Chalabala, I like it a lot. Many narrative details and fluent tempo.
EDIT: You are right. Checking further info, it is recorded from 1953. I´m beginning to wonder whether my LP version which clearly states "stereo" by the same forces is in fact a "restored" 1953 recording. The sound is very spacious and clear, yet not very differentiated between the loudspeakers, so I guess that is the case.
@Elgarian: I'm and have been a serious listener and records collector for more than 55 years, but I'm not a musician, don't play any instrument nor can I read a sheet. So, can't made a musical analysis nor a technical comment about NRK chamber. All I can say is that I love those works, and IMO, the big piano trio is one of the best in Russian in the 19Th.century, with Tchaikovsky's and Taneyev's.
BTW, anybody knows Scheherazade by Nicolai Golovanoff and Moscow Bolshoi orch.(1947)?. The orchestra was third class, and the sound is really bad (in 1947, recording technique in Russian was crap), but the concertino was David Oistrakh, and the violin solos are just marvellous.
Quote from: DieNacht on May 27, 2012, 11:37:32 AM
Concerning Chalabala, I like it a lot. Many narrative details and fluent tempo.
EDIT: You are right. Checking further info, it is recorded from 1953. I´m beginning to wonder whether my LP version which clearly states "stereo" by the same forces is in fact a "restored" 1953 recording. The sound is very spacious and clear, yet not very differentiated between the loudspeakers, so I guess that is the case.
Unfortunately, I checked on Amazon under Vaclav Neumann, who was the conductor of the Czech Philharmonic for many years but cannot find any recording of works by Rimsky-Korsakov ...
Quote from: carlos on May 27, 2012, 01:23:17 PM
@Elgarian: I'm and have been a serious listener and records collector for more than 55 years, but I'm not a musician, don't play any instrument nor can I read a sheet. So, can't made a musical analysis nor a technical comment about NRK chamber. All I can say is that I love those works, and IMO, the big piano trio is one of the best in Russian in the 19Th.century, with Tchaikovsky's and Taneyev's.
That's all OK. Heck, anyone around here will tell you that I'm a complete musical ignoramus in the technical sense. I just listen and write about what I hear, and hope it makes sense to someone else, somewhere.
Can you recommend particular recordings of the chamber pieces you love?
OK:
Quartet op12+quartet B-La-F (in honor to Belaief). This is a collective in 4 movements by RK,Lyadov, Borodin and Glazunov. The Lyric quartet.
Sextet for strings.Ensemble Classique Koln.
Quintet piano and winds. Eva Knardahl and Gothemburg wind quintet.
Piano trio: Oistrakh trio.
He ;D wrote string quartet single movements for "Fridays" and "Birthday", also collective works.
Quote from: carlos on May 27, 2012, 01:23:17 PMBTW, anybody knows Scheherazade by Nicolai Golovanoff and Moscow Bolshoi orch.(1947)?. The orchestra was third class, and the sound is really bad (in 1947, recording technique in Russian was crap), but the concertino was David Oistrakh, and the violin solos are just marvellous.
That conductor's better known as Golovanov, a bit of a cult figure. Apparently his Scriabin is amazing, but in horrible sound.
[ASIN]B004PGNN40[/ASIN]
Horrible sound of itself is amazing, in a way....
Golovanov's Liszt is something else too.
Quote from: Elgarian on March 09, 2012, 01:27:12 PM
Well, well, well. A couple of days ago Muti's Scheherazade dropped onto the doormat:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71%2BibCQR64L._SL1068_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Rimsky-Korsakov-Scheherazade-Tchaikovsky-1812-Overture/dp/B00005NPJR)
I'd ordered this, to be honest, with only mild interest. It cost me £2.99, post free. I had no great expectations. I put it into the player, picked up my book, and began to read, not anticipating that my reading would be much disturbed. In any case, I've listened to far too many Scheherazades in recent weeks. I must be suffering to some extent from Rimsky fatigue - right?
I lasted less than 5 minutes before putting the book down. I'm having difficulty pinpointing what it is about this performance that so captivates me, but captivate me it most certainly does. The orchestral sound is wonderfully and warmly spacious. The very sound of it makes me think of balmy Arabian evenings. Solo instruments seem to sing with exquisite clarity against this background like birdsong in the sultan's garden. But over and through all this is a sense of romantic lyricism and dramatic responsiveness that I find I can accept without question and allow it to carry me along. As I write that, I realise that I'm in danger of making it seem a bit wishy-washy, but oh no: the second movement, for example, is full of tension, strained to just the right degree, and then released with perfect timing. The climactic ending of the 2nd movement is simply superb. It makes me want to punch the air, turn up the volume, open the window, and frighten the neighbours with it.
Three quid, for this stunning recording? Could be the best bargain basement value-for-money Scheherazade on the market. This joins my list of keepers and gets glued in for good. It could even challenge Beecham for my desert island Scheherazade choice (never thought that would be possible). And if I were able to conduct an orchestra (in my dreams!), then this is the kind of Scheherazade interpretation that I would be wanting to present. Oh yes.
Courtesy of your enthusiasm, Elgarian, I looked for, found, and have now heard Muti's
Scheherazade (http://www.amazon.com/Rimsky-Korsakov-Scheherazade-Tchaikovsky-1812-Overture/dp/B00005NPJR) – and I love it. I'm with you: I'd also put it up there with Beecham's (http://www.amazon.com/Rimsky-Korsakov-Scheherazade-Borodin-Polovtsian-Dances/dp/B000023Z0O) and Reiner's (http://www.amazon.com/Rimsky-Korsakov-Scheherazade-Stravinsky-Song-Nightingale/dp/B000003FWQ) (and Silvestri's)
Scheherazades.
Muti's
Scheherazade is now available on Spotify:
https://play.spotify.com/album/5TrYvDXbKpGJquTj7eAJCX (https://play.spotify.com/album/5TrYvDXbKpGJquTj7eAJCX)
or
https://play.spotify.com/album/0riQAkw6CLit4AHlTwtnOd (https://play.spotify.com/album/0riQAkw6CLit4AHlTwtnOd)
By the way, I've been reading and enjoying your survey of
Scheherazades (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5601.msg902065.html#msg902065), and I've come to the conclusion that your taste in
Scheherazade is incredibly similar to mine. I agree with pretty much everything you've said about the recordings you've heard.
Quote from: Peter Power Pop on June 20, 2015, 10:27:32 PM
By the way, I've been reading and enjoying your survey of Scheherazades (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5601.msg902065.html#msg902065), and I've come to the conclusion that your taste in Scheherazade is incredibly similar to mine. I agree with pretty much everything you've said about the recordings you've heard.
Isn't that smashing? I mean, we definitely don't need to agree with others when we're discussing these things (and actually I find I benefit a lot from reading viewpoints very different from my own), but it is ever so nice when we do, isn't it? There's a sort of virtual handshake in it. A nod of understanding made possible by the music. Cheers.
Quote from: Elgarian on February 21, 2012, 07:34:26 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71Uvl9RRzYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I was surprised to discover that Litton's Scheherazade was one of the slower ones, and so I listened to it again today (third time). I find I'm quite lost for words. I really love this interpretation, though I can't say why. It doesn't sparkle in the way that Beecham does; it doesn't fly wildly like Svetlanov; it doesn't have the perfection of Kondrashin, or the smooth Cinemascope glossiness of Ormandy. It just suits me, almost perfectly. It's Romantic in all the ways I like; it has real weight in the climaxes. The wind whistles with just the right force, and the waves gather and crash mightily when they need to. The Prince and Princess are meltingly beautiful without being insipid. But I really haven't a clue just what it is that makes this feel so satisfying, compared with others.
Twenty years ago Gramophone damned it with faint praise ('exciting without being electrifying'), and I can see how one might say that - but it's not the whole truth. At least, not for me. It has a warmth; I get an impression of great affection for the music; I feel that affection myself. It breaks no new ground; it doesn't make me rethink any aspect of Scheherazade. It just fits me like a glove.
I'd like to think that at the end of this Arabian Odyssey, I'll be able to sort my Scheherazade discs into the 'indispensables' and the, well, 'not indispensables'. I've a fair way to go yet, but so far, Beecham, Svetlanov (with his Russian band), and now Litton have made it into the ranks of definite keepers.
I've just bought the Litton
Scheherazade. It's part of a 2-CD set from Virgin Classics called
Russian Music ($10 on eBay – bargain!):
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAwWDUwMA==/z/iNkAAOSwrklVa7PO/$_12.JPG) (http://www.amazon.com/Russian-Music-Modest-Mussorgsky/dp/B00004LCAX) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J2fH01e%2BL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Russian-Music-Modest-Mussorgsky/dp/B00004LCAX)
I'll be buying the Beecham next.
Thanks for these recommendations, young Elgarian.
Quote from: Peter Power Pop on June 22, 2015, 12:26:17 AM
"young Elgarian."
Ha! I wish!
Looking forward to what you say about your new purchases.
Quote from: Peter Power Pop on June 22, 2015, 12:26:17 AMI've just bought the Litton Scheherazade. It's part of a 2-CD set from Virgin Classics called Russian Music ($10 on eBay – bargain!):
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51nGTgVguBL.jpg/img%5D%5B/url%5D%20%5Burl="http://www.amazon.com/Russian-Music-Modest-Mussorgsky/dp/B00004LCAX"%5D%5Bimg%20height=425%5Dhttp://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J2fH01e%2BL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Russian-Music-Modest-Mussorgsky/dp/B00004LCAX)
The stand-out in that program (in being much less frequently programmed than the rest) is the
Tchaikovsky. How do you like it?
As per the Scheherazade thread my recs would be
Beecham
Silvestri
Reiner
I have to admit that I have not yet heard a complete Rimsky opera although I bought a Brilliant box set a few years ago.
But I love the suites from some of the operas like Christmas Eve, Tsar Saltan, The Golden Cockerel etc. I also like the 2nd symphony "Antar" at least as much as Sheherazade (which is a little overlong for me).
Quote from: karlhenning on June 22, 2015, 03:56:26 AM
The stand-out in that program (in being much less frequently programmed than the rest) is the Tchaikovsky. How do you like it?
Er, I've never heard it. A quick trip to YouTube will fix that. Hang on...
https://www.youtube.com/v/FuyyNgctv8o
Mmm: Moody. I love the rumbling cellos and fluttering woodwinds at 3:35.
While I'm listening to it, I'm not thinking of a storm at all. I'm thinking Tchaikovsky must have written a piece called
Hänsel und Gretel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansel_and_Gretel) instead, because I'm picturing Hansel and Gretel walking through a forest to the old witch's house. The cellos are the children's footsteps, the wind instruments are the birds in the trees, and the violins are the wind. At calm section starting at 4:35 is Hansel and Gretel finding the witch's house, and they think is a welcoming home. Once they're inside they're a little bit frightened (the music changes to reflect the children's apprehension), but at 8:39 the violins signify the witch reassuring Hansel and Gretel that everything's fine and they are completely safe. This bit goes on for ages, so the witch is really doing a number on them. ("Why, think of me as the granny you never had, but always wanted. I'm the best granny ever!") But at 12:53 there's a seed of doubt from Hansel or Gretel. At 13:34 one of the children realises, "Oh-oh, I think we're in trouble here", and at 13:43 the other child says, "Yep." For the next couple of minutes the kiddies are getting more and more frantic, wondering how they're going to get out of that house. ("What are we going to do?"; "This is dreadful!"; "We must do something!" etc.) At 15:28 Granny finally notices the young'uns are beside themselves, and tries to calm the junior campers by telling them everything's fine. At 18:33 Hansel and/or Gretel says to Granny, "You're lying!", and, as per the "Hänsel und Gretel" story, the anklebiters chuck Granny/The Old Witch into the oven at 18:45 (the big cymbal crash tells me that's what happened). Everything after that is the happy ending (you can hear it all in the music).
I enjoyed Tchaikovsky's
The Tempest Hänsel und Gretel.
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronia is not only one of Rimsky-Korsakov's best works, it is one of the greatest operas ever composed.
[asin]B005G4YEE8[/asin]
Quote from: Elgarian on May 26, 2012, 12:26:40 AM
Well well well. Fancy this. I've been hoping throughout my Scheherazade explorations to find on CD the recording that originally enchanted me (on LP) nearly 50 years ago: Kletzki with the Philharmonia, and Hugh Bean on violin:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dCoaftIaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I think maybe it was never transferred to CD. Certainly I can't find one. But I discovered the other day that it can be had as an Amazon download:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005Q3SWSS/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1338019663&sr=1-1-catcorr (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005Q3SWSS/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1338019663&sr=1-1-catcorr).
The Kletzki is on Spotify.
I'm really not interested in downloading music, but in this case beggars couldn't be choosers; and Amazon had given me some promotional downloading points, which would otherwise be wasted, so I took the plunge. The experiment cost less than £2, so nothing to lose. Burned the tracks onto CD, took it into the garden, and sat in the sunshine, prepared to be ravished by Kletzki's Scheherazade.
Well there was always a chance that my memory had deceived me into elevating this ('my first Scheherazade') to a status it didn't really deserve; but no, it really is a smashing performance. Maybe not quite up to Beecham, Svetlanov or Muti, but I certainly hadn't been deceived as a mere stripling. Even so, at the end I felt rather flattened. Not because of the performance, but because of the recording quality. This was obviously transferred from a vinyl LP. And it showed, in the continuous surface rustle apparent in the quiet bits, spits and pops, lack of dynamic range, and slightly unpleasant 'boxy' sound. I doubt if I shall want to listen to this very often. Despite the performance, I can't recommend this download , for these very reasons.
Curiously, I don't have this problem with recordings from 78 (eg Elgar's conducted stuff) because I can approach it differently; it doesn't offer anything like a hifi experience, and one can settle for that. But a bad transfer from vinyl does raise hifi expectations - and then goes on and on disappointing, to exhaustion.
For the record, Kletzki's timings are 10.24, 11.14, 10.31 and 12.20. (44.29 altogether.)
Quote from: Cato on June 22, 2015, 05:17:24 PM
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronia is not only one of Rimsky-Korsakov's best works, it is one of the greatest operas ever composed.
[asin]B005G4YEE8[/asin]
Does this particular release include the libretto? I have this recording on the five-opera box set where there is, as you'd expect, no libretto, but it doesn't seem to be available anywhere in English. Not sure, but I think the Naxos is the only other complete recording (and no lib there), so it's safe to say any other recording wouldn't include the complete text.
Quote from: KevinP on November 29, 2019, 01:09:00 PM
Does this particular release include the libretto? I have this recording on the five-opera box set where there is, as you'd expect, no libretto, but it doesn't seem to be available anywhere in English. Not sure, but I think the Naxos is the only other complete recording (and no lib there), so it's safe to say any other recording wouldn't include the complete text.
(https://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/6/2/5/2/028946222522_300.jpg)
Yes, it has the libretto! A great work and performance!
Good to know. Not sure I really want to buy the recording again just for the libretto, but I'll keep an eye out for used copies.
Have not read all the posts here, but...
you MUST go find the Jennie Tourel performance of the song "A Flight of Passing Clouds". Her recordings of Russian songs were issued on Columbia LP in the 60s/70s. I would assume they are also available on CD
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91gQGDwGk9L._SL1500_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91Mn15ExuGL.jpg) (https://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/6/2/5/2/028946222522_300.jpg)
Quote from: Cato on November 29, 2019, 01:39:18 PMYes, it has the libretto! A great work and performance!
These are two different issues, the
reissue pictured on the left has no libretto (but offers a link to a download).
Just follow the link and read the comments....
Q
This thread already contains a lot of my enthusiastic musings about Scheherazade from over 10 years ago, but now I find that something new is happening. I'm becoming captivated by Antar. I don't know it well, yet, but I'm determined to get to know it better. I have two recordings, both conducted by Svetlanov, with different orchestras. One is with the Philharmonia Orchestra, on Hyperion (Helios), and this sounds pretty marvellous to me. The other is in the 5CD Svetlanov/Rimsky Warner box set, with the USSR Symphony Orchestra.
My question is: what other recordings of Antar are out there that might shed extra light on it, or even blow me away into the higher realms of Antarland? All suggestions will be gratefully received.
I've read conflicting reviews of the recording by Bakels with the Malaysian PO. It can still be found on CD but costs quite a bit - is it worth having?
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 16, 2025, 10:49:35 AMThis thread already contains a lot of my enthusiastic musings about Scheherazade from over 10 years ago, but now I find that something new is happening. I'm becoming captivated by Antar. I don't know it well, yet, but I'm determined to get to know it better. I have two recordings, both conducted by Svetlanov, with different orchestras. One is with the Philharmonia Orchestra, on Hyperion (Helios), and this sounds pretty marvellous to me. The other is in the 5CD Svetlanov/Rimsky Warner box set, with the USSR Symphony Orchestra.
My question is: what other recordings of Antar are out there that might shed extra light on it, or even blow me away into the higher realms of Antarland? All suggestions will be gratefully received.
I've read conflicting reviews of the recording by Bakels with the Malaysian PO. It can still be found on CD but costs quite a bit - is it worth having?
I have this one--not listened to in a while but I remember liking it
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Fb5mbUXRL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
ETA
The complete Bakels set is available on Amazon MP for about $35US from Rarewaves
Quote from: JBS on February 16, 2025, 11:03:18 AMI have this one--not listened to in a while but I remember liking it
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Fb5mbUXRL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
ETA
The complete Bakels set is available on Amazon MP for about $35US from Rarewaves
Thanks Jeffrey. Impatient as ever, I decided to go for the Bakels/Malasian Antar/Scheherazade coupling on BIS. I'll look out for a cheap copy of the Maazel too.
I have it with Morton Gould and the Chicago Symphony, a classic RCA recording. In the small box set for his legacy as a conductor. Exciting and colorful, but I have no experience with other performances to make comparisons. It seems like the kind of music where you find one performance you like, that really lets 'er rip and brings contrast to the frequent repetitions.
Quote from: Cato on December 13, 2007, 09:26:02 AMBy chance I just this morning put a mini-comment about Rimsky's First and Third Symphonies under the topic "The Worst First."
Check for a 2-CD set with Neemi Jarvi conducting the Scottish National Orchestra in all of the best suites from the operas. I also have his DGG set with all 3 symphonies and the Russian Easter Overture and the Capriccio Espagnol.
Although you said orchestral CD's, the ultimate Rimsky-Korsakov work to have is the opera The Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya.
I need to give the
Symphony #3 another test drive! I have always found the first two symphonies superior to the
Thirdbut perhaps things will be different now!
Rimsky-Korsakov recommendations?
To be avoided, if possible.
Yowch!
This is a set which I've enjoyed over the years:
https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%2010369
K
Quote from: San Antone on February 16, 2025, 03:07:02 PMRimsky-Korsakov recommendations?
To be avoided, if possible.
Ooomf ... [I just experienced what Bob Dylan describes as 'a corkscrew to my heart'.]
Browsing Amazon, I came across this for about £1 and thought, 'why not?' Is anyone familiar with it?
Ansermet recorded Sheherazade, Antar & several opera suites.
This is in early stereo (some maybe mono) and with the characteristic sound of his orchestra de la suisse romande that some love, others hate. But it might be an interesting alternative to Russian recordings. I am no expert here and only have one 2fer anthology of Ansermet's Rimsky but I remember that I used to like them.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 16, 2025, 03:25:02 PMYowch!
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 17, 2025, 12:33:34 AMOoomf ... [I just experienced what Bob Dylan describes as 'a corkscrew to my heart'.]
Sorry. Purely a personal feeling. That said, R-K was the first composer who got me interested in classical music, and for that fact alone, I should have more empathy for those who still find his music rewarding.
Quote from: Jo498 on February 17, 2025, 03:05:01 AMBut it might be an interesting alternative to Russian recordings.
Yes indeed, and that's what I'm after: I'm not chasing 'the best' (whatever that may mean), but rather, illuminating alternatives. Thanks for this.
Just been listening to Ansermet's Antar on Youtube (thanks for the tip, Jo498). Gosh this is different indeed. Worth travelling further with, maybe - so I've found a copy of the Ansermet 2-CD Rimsky set and bought it. Apparently the Antar was the first ever stereo Decca recording.
Tell you what though, folks - so far, no matter who is performing it (I am as I write listening to Ansermet in lo-fi on Youtube), I am growing to adore Antar utterly. It's like being 16 and discovering Scheherazade all over again, with exotic imagined images and scenes tumbling over one another, as the music evolves: the musical movie in the mind.
Morton Gould Chicago SO is my favourite recording of Antar. There is a thematic connection with Miaskovsky's 21st Symphony. The box set features a mini CD-sized version of the psychedelic LP sleeve.
I came across this work earlier today:
Suite from Pan Voyevoda (The score is for two pianos and will drive you nuts, because the music for the pianos is side by side, not vertical!)
Quote from: vandermolen on February 17, 2025, 06:52:01 AMMorton Gould Chicago SO is my favourite recording of Antar. There is a thematic connection with Miaskovsky's 21st Symphony. The box set features a mini CD-sized version of the psychedelic LP sleeve.
I'd forgotten that was in that box - thanks for the reminder!
Quote from: vandermolen on February 17, 2025, 06:52:01 AMMorton Gould Chicago SO is my favourite recording of Antar. There is a thematic connection with Miaskovsky's 21st Symphony. The box set features a mini CD-sized version of the psychedelic LP sleeve.
Thanks for the tip. Brian recommended this earlier, and I've been trying to find it on CD, but I can't. LP only. There's the Gould box set on CD, but I don't want that, especially not for more than £100. So I might be stuck on this one.
Any recommendations for the piano quintet? I heard it on car radio and loved it.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 17, 2025, 05:58:51 AMJust been listening to Ansermet's Antar on Youtube (thanks for the tip, Jo498). Gosh this is different indeed. Worth travelling further with, maybe - so I've found a copy of the Ansermet 2-CD Rimsky set and bought it. Apparently the Antar was the first ever stereo Decca recording.
I was never the greatest fan of Sheherazade, I probably encountered it "too late" when I felt that I was past the flashy programmatic orchestral spectacular but I first got Antar and the numbered symphonies (both not very interesting) I think in a brilliant classics box of which, however, the best things were probably the suites like Christmas Eve, Kitezh etc. I was quite fond of these discs for a while about 20 years ago, for some time I preferred Rimsky to Tchaikovsky...
Later I got a bigger box, again by Brilliant Classics that doubled the smaller box and had lots of operas as well. But I don't think I ever got into these operas (some of them were historic Russian recordings).
But I was sufficiently fond of Antar and these suites to get the Ansermet as well when it came out on Aussie eloquence.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/6160W0uD+aL._SL1000_.jpg)
I heartily recommend this 3-CD box. Russian singers and mostly Russian pianists ensure idiomatic performances. My Russian is very rusty so I understood, say, one word in ten --- but the music is so expressive and beautiful as to render the literal meaning of the words superfluous. After all, it's Pushkin, Lermontov, Fet, Tyutchev, Heine and their ilk, so what can they sing about if not (unrequited) love and (melancholy) nature? In such poetry just one word is enough to establish the mood. Two is already a confirmation, while three is a downright synopsis.
Quote from: Jo498 on February 17, 2025, 08:52:14 AMI was never the greatest fan of Sheherazade, I probably encountered it "too late" when I felt that I was past the flashy programmatic orchestral spectacular but I first got Antar and the numbered symphonies (both not very interesting) I think in a brilliant classics box of which, however, the best things were probably the suites like Christmas Eve, Kitezh etc. I was quite fond of these discs for a while about 20 years ago, for some time I preferred Rimsky to Tchaikovsky...
Later I got a bigger box, again by Brilliant Classics that doubled the smaller box and had lots of operas as well. But I don't think I ever got into these operas (some of them were historic Russian recordings).
But I was sufficiently fond of Antar and these suites to get the Ansermet as well when it came out on Aussie eloquence.
I confess that I never went through a phase of finding
Scheherazade a 'flashy ... orchestral spectacular', but I did love its programmatic aspect right from the beginning, and never fell out of love with it in 60 years. I kept on accumulating other music and just took
Scheherazade along with me.
The weird thing though is that I've listened to
Antar several times over the years, and it made no impact on me at all - until NOW. (Why
now? It's not exactly hard to listen to, is it?) And here I am today, its tunes running through my head even when I'm not listening to it, accompanied by dazzlingly coloured mental images of gazelles, fearsome giant birds, ruined cities, desert winds, and magic temptresses. Bloomin' marvellous!
I would agree with comments that Ansermet's Rimsky-Korsakov is extraordinary. Scheherazade sound like Wagner under Karajan, but sparkles under Ansermet. There is a little piece called Dubinushka which is very rarely recorded, but is a little gem in Ansermet's recording.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 17, 2025, 10:35:59 AMI confess that I never went through a phase of finding Scheherazade a 'flashy ... orchestral spectacular'....
Nor me. Not even during my most 19
th-c.-music resistant era did I feel the least inclination to be dismissive of
Scheherazade.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 17, 2025, 10:35:59 AMThe weird thing though is that I've listened to Antar several times over the years, and it made no impact on me at all - until NOW. (Why now? It's not exactly hard to listen to, is it?) And here I am today, its tunes running through my head even when I'm not listening to it, accompanied by dazzlingly coloured mental images of gazelles, fearsome giant birds, ruined cities, desert winds, and magic temptresses. Bloomin' marvellous!
Why then? Because the stars aligned and the conditions were met at that exact time --- for you. Because music is not a disembodied, abstract structure valid for everyone, everywhere, any time, but a living being, heavily dependent on circumstances. Rain and interesting times can kill it just as easily as drought and boredom. There is no
Antar as an abstract and immutable text --- only
Antar as a concrete and ever-changing performance, to which concrete and ever-changing individuals respond according to their physical and temporal circumstances. One listens to it a hundred times and makes nothing of it --- and out of a sudden the 101st listen results in an epiphany. Why? Well, because the stars aligned and the conditions were met at that exact time --- for them.
Our ears are not, today, the ears we heard with erewhile.
Beecham's Scheherazade, for me, is one of the finest recordings of this masterpiece:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/715ydndbK4L._SL1200_.jpg)
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 17, 2025, 11:17:20 AMOur ears are not, today, he ears we heard with erewhile.
Music according to Heraclitus: one cannot hear it twice.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 17, 2025, 11:17:20 AMOur ears are not, today, the ears we heard with erewhile.
Mine certainly aren't, that's for sure. I went off, after being bowled over by
Scheherazade (and disappointed by
Antar), and discovered Sibelius, Wagner, Puccini, Mozart, Handel, Haydn, etc, etc .... and so the young chap who dreamed about Scheherazade in his garden became subjected to a host of widely different musical experiences for 60 years. And then he heard
Antar again last week, and
Baboom!, it
took! I can
remember being 16, but oh it was a looooong time ago, and things have changed.
Quote from: Florestan on February 17, 2025, 11:06:16 AMWhy then? Because the stars aligned and the conditions were met at that exact time --- for you. Because music is not a disembodied, abstract structure valid for everyone, everywhere, any time, but a living being, heavily dependent on circumstances. Rain and interesting times can kill it just as easily as drought and boredom. There is no Antar as an abstract and immutable text --- only Antar as a concrete and ever-changing performance, to which concrete and ever-changing individuals respond according to their physical and temporal circumstances. One listens to it a hundred times and makes nothing of it --- and out of a sudden the 101st listen results in an epiphany. Why? Well, because the stars aligned and the conditions were met at that exact time --- for them.
I suppose my question was rhetorical, but I'm glad I asked it, for the pleasure of reading this spirited poetic response.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 17, 2025, 07:56:35 AMThanks for the tip. Brian recommended this earlier, and I've been trying to find it on CD, but I can't. LP only. There's the Gould box set on CD, but I don't want that, especially not for more than £100. So I might be stuck on this one.
Yes, the Gould box set was not so expensive when I bought it.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 17, 2025, 12:43:49 AMBrowsing Amazon, I came across this for about £1 and thought, 'why not?' Is anyone familiar with it?
Yes, nice collection of works.
This was a fine old Vox collection (2CDs), featuring Kitezh and the Piano Concerto etc
Quote from: vandermolen on February 17, 2025, 02:07:37 PMThis was a fine old Vox collection (2CDs), featuring Kitezh and the Piano Concerto etc
VOX had all kinds of great boxes, e.g. Complete
Scriabin and
Rachmaninov Piano Music.
I offered this elsewhere today:
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 17, 2025, 10:47:02 AMI would agree with comments that Ansermet's Rimsky-Korsakov is extraordinary. Scheherazade sound like Wagner under Karajan, but sparkles under Ansermet. There is a little piece called Dubinushka which is very rarely recorded, but is a little gem in Ansermet's recording.
Was glad that the excellent Gerard Schwarz series on Naxos included a sparkling new Dubinushka.
Quote from: vandermolen on February 17, 2025, 02:00:23 PMYes, nice collection of works.
That's reassuring! Thanks.
And there's something haunting about that old Supraphon cover art, don't you think?
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 17, 2025, 11:40:50 PMThat's reassuring! Thanks.
And there's something haunting about that old Supraphon cover art, don't you think?
Yes, I agree. The sound quality wasn't great but the performances were fine. I always liked Supraphon as a label. I remember finding it endearing when Supraphon put an advert in Gramophone Magazine after Czechoslovakia (as it then was) lost to England in football along the lines of 'Well, you can't win at everything!'
Quote from: Cato on February 17, 2025, 03:52:45 PMVOX had all kinds of great boxes, e.g. Complete Scriabin and Rachmaninov Piano Music.
I offered this elsewhere today:
Some nice Prokofiev as well including the symphonies with Martinon and the film music conducted by Slatkin.
Quote from: vandermolen on February 17, 2025, 06:52:01 AMMorton Gould Chicago SO is my favourite recording of Antar. There is a thematic connection with Miaskovsky's 21st Symphony. The box set features a mini CD-sized version of the psychedelic LP sleeve.
I just discovered that some kind soul has uploaded the Gould
Antar to Soundcloud. Here's the link, for anyone who's interested:
Morton Gould/Chicago SO/Antar (https://soundcloud.com/user-154424249/antar-cr)
(Only the first 30 minutes or so is
Antar. Something else is stuck on the end, presumably by accident.)
Here's another question. Can anyone point me to a fairly detailed account of the Antar programme, please?
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 18, 2025, 05:14:05 AMHere's another question. Can anyone point me to a fairly detailed account of the Antar programme, please?
This explanation is fairly well done: I hope you find it complete enough for your purposes or curiosity!
https://artsfuse.org/159006/rethinking-the-repertoire-11-nikolai-rimsky-korsakovs-antar/ (https://artsfuse.org/159006/rethinking-the-repertoire-11-nikolai-rimsky-korsakovs-antar/)
Quote from: Cato on February 18, 2025, 05:49:20 AMThis explanation is fairly well done: I hope you find it complete enough for your purposes or curiosity!
https://artsfuse.org/159006/rethinking-the-repertoire-11-nikolai-rimsky-korsakovs-antar/ (https://artsfuse.org/159006/rethinking-the-repertoire-11-nikolai-rimsky-korsakovs-antar/)
Smashing. Exactly what I've been trying to find. Thanks Cato.
Quote from: Jo498 on February 17, 2025, 08:52:14 AMI was never the greatest fan of Sheherazade, I probably encountered it "too late" when I felt that I was past the flashy programmatic orchestral spectacular but I first got Antar and the numbered symphonies (both not very interesting) I think in a brilliant classics box of which, however, the best things were probably the suites like Christmas Eve, Kitezh etc. I was quite fond of these discs for a while about 20 years ago, for some time I preferred Rimsky to Tchaikovsky...
Later I got a bigger box, again by Brilliant Classics that doubled the smaller box and had lots of operas as well. But I don't think I ever got into these operas (some of them were historic Russian recordings).
But I was sufficiently fond of Antar and these suites to get the Ansermet as well when it came out on Aussie eloquence.
Disdain for Sheherazade, but then enjoying Haydn's symphonies that people wouldn't be able to say which number it was in a blind test outside of his most famous symphonies. Comedy comes in all shapes and forms I guess ;D
Quote from: Atriod on February 18, 2025, 06:57:14 AMDisdain for Sheherazade, but then enjoying Haydn's symphonies that people wouldn't be able to say which number it was in a blind test outside of his most famous symphonies. Comedy comes in all shapes and forms I guess ;D
I certainly endorse appreciation for
Scheherazade. While there is a truth behind your blind test, it does not, of course say anything to the quality of the
Haydn symphonies which I should fail to identify in such a test. I suspect that's not quite what you meant, to be sure.
I love that this thread is rolling.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 18, 2025, 09:01:09 AMI love that this thread is rolling.
Like Ol' Man River, it keeps on rollin' along ...
And it's likely to keep on keepin' on for a while, because not a single one of my recent
Antar purchases has arrived yet. Imagine what it'll be like when they do!
I'll just sit here on this bank of sand and watch Rimsky-Korsakov flow!
Quote from: Atriod on February 18, 2025, 06:57:14 AMDisdain for Sheherazade, but then enjoying Haydn's symphonies that people wouldn't be able to say which number it was in a blind test outside of his most famous symphonies. Comedy comes in all shapes and forms I guess ;D
What nonsense is this?
Sheherazade is now sacrosanct?
If it's any consolation I don't like any of Liszt's tone poems either.
And what has dislike of an overlong and repetitive piece of orientalism to do with the difficulty to keep >35 hours of music so distinct in one's head that one could be certain about each one of >350 movements. (I'd actually bet, I'd beat 95% of this forum at such a blind test game with Haydn)
Quote from: Jo498 on February 18, 2025, 10:37:34 AM... dislike of an overlong and repetitive piece of orientalism ....
Your opinion has already been noted. One needn't consider any item of the standard repertory "sacrosanct" to invite you to consider the dangers of repetition yourself. Just saying.
What on earth is the point of having a row about whether one likes or dislikes Scheherazade, or whether one can identify a bit of Haydn? Several of us in this thread have been enjoying discussing the music for its own sake, and surely there's room for the expression of all genuine opinion, without everything going up in flames?
Could I just ask for a little bit of self-discipline, please? There's no contest here. I thought it was about a sharing of opinion for (one hopes) the illumination and enjoyment of all who are interested.
A usually overlooked, and short work in the spirit of The Russian Orthodox church, a work whose title is translated in various ways, e.g.
At/On the Tomb, At/Over the Grave, etc.
Quote from: Cato on February 18, 2025, 11:43:21 AMA usually overlooked, and short work in the spirit of The Russian Orthodox church, a work whose title is translated in various ways, e.g. At/On the Tomb, At/Over the Grave, etc.
Another
Rimsky-Korsakov work which might be under the radar for at least some of us here: a "secular cantata,"
The Song of Oleg the Wise.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 18, 2025, 05:12:16 AMI just discovered that some kind soul has uploaded the Gould Antar to Soundcloud. Here's the link, for anyone who's interested:
Morton Gould/Chicago SO/Antar (https://soundcloud.com/user-154424249/antar-cr)
(Only the first 30 minutes or so is Antar. Something else is stuck on the end, presumably by accident.)
It's the complete Symphony No.21 by Miaskovsky - Antar's companion on the original RCA LP.
Quote from: vandermolen on February 19, 2025, 12:48:29 AMIt's the complete Symphony No.21 by Miaskovsky - Antar's companion on the original RCA LP.
I briefly wondered if that might be the case, but I'm entirely unfamiliar with Miakovsky and thought it unlikely that his 21st symphony would only last 14 minutes.
Wrong! Many thanks for enlightening me.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 19, 2025, 01:02:07 AMI briefly wondered if that might be the case, but I'm entirely unfamiliar with Miakovsky and thought it unlikely that his 21st symphony would only last 14 minutes. Wrong! Many thanks for enlightening me.
My pleasure! It's a concise but eloquent, poetic and poignant work. It was commissioned by the Chicago SO and Frederick Stock in 1940 at a time of rapprochement between the USA and the USSR (let's not go there!) It was also recorded by Eugene Ormandy.
I encountered Rimsky-Korsakov's piano trio on the recording below, and much enjoyed it.
(https://a.allegroimg.com/original/036480/66126ec845e9a797adefa84bd6ea/OISTRAKH-TRIO-Oistrakh-Knushevitsky-Oborin-3CD)
Regarding the Rimsky symphonies - a quick shout-out for Yondani Butt's set over 2 discs on OOP ASV;
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61XLFhq67dL._UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)(https://i.discogs.com/o4RNl9VcoSX6rU4lDh60PcmwCt4Smy0cdPgQhCC4-yY/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:497/w:500/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE2MzY4/NTkxLTE2MDczMjQ3/MTItNjEwNy5qcGVn.jpeg)
These can still be found at reasonable prices although you need to beware of bronzing on some ASV discs. Butt was very good in this Romantic Russian repertoire - see his Glazunov that I praised quite recently. And the recording and playing is suitably opulent and powerful
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 19, 2025, 06:12:18 AMRegarding the Rimsky symphonies - a quick shout-out for Yondani Butt's set over 2 discs on OOP ASV;
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61XLFhq67dL._UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)(https://i.discogs.com/o4RNl9VcoSX6rU4lDh60PcmwCt4Smy0cdPgQhCC4-yY/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:497/w:500/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE2MzY4/NTkxLTE2MDczMjQ3/MTItNjEwNy5qcGVn.jpeg)
These can still be found at reasonable prices although you need to beware of bronzing on some ASV discs. Butt was very good in this Romantic Russian repertoire - see his Glazunov that I praised quite recently. And the recording and playing is suitably opulent and powerful
Agreed! This is a very nice disc:
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=120449;image)
The first of my recent Antar purchases has arrived, and I've just finished listening to it. And I realise that in a way, I ought to disqualify myself from commenting on all these recordings, because I haven't yet heard a performance of Antar that didn't wring my heart and leave me in a state of wonder. So I fear that I might end up just gushing about one recording after another. We'll see. If that happens, I promise I'll stop.
It might be as well to note that my 'goto' performance, at present is this one:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71w7OBA1RZL._AC_UY327_QL65_.jpg)
I don't propose to compare everything with this, not by any means, but it may be helpful to know that this is the recording that first blew me away a couple of weeks ago.
So, then, to this Supraphon recording, conducted by Jiri Belohlavek with the BRNO State Philharmonic Orchestra. It has the distinction of being recommended by distinguished GMG friend and colleague, vandermolen.
This is not like Svetlanov. To find overarching words to describe it, I'd go for 'lyrical', 'smooth', 'expressive but restrained'. At times it felt a little bit 'Hollywood', but in the nicest, smoothest possible way - I say this not as a derogatory comment but a tentatively descriptive one. In the two middle movements the guy on the big drum earns his pay very effectively and sensitively without bashing the heck out of my ears.
The gazelle/princess Gul Nazar music is deliciously sensual whenever it occurs, rippling through the score like a silk scarf in a gentle breeze. Anyone would fall in love with her on the basis of listening to this.
If this recording had been my first experience of Antar, would I have been blown away? Oh yes. Would this replace my Svetlanov CD? No. But neither would the Svetlanov be able to replace this. I want both readings of this music. I have both. I am, in that respect, a happy fellow.
I await the postman for the next one.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 19, 2025, 06:12:18 AMRegarding the Rimsky symphonies - a quick shout-out for Yondani Butt's set over 2 discs on OOP ASV;
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61XLFhq67dL._UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)(https://i.discogs.com/o4RNl9VcoSX6rU4lDh60PcmwCt4Smy0cdPgQhCC4-yY/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:497/w:500/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE2MzY4/NTkxLTE2MDczMjQ3/MTItNjEwNy5qcGVn.jpeg)
These can still be found at reasonable prices although you need to beware of bronzing on some ASV discs. Butt was very good in this Romantic Russian repertoire - see his Glazunov that I praised quite recently. And the recording and playing is suitably opulent and powerful
Thanks for this. The bronzing issue seemed disturbing, but I now see that Presto Classical offer this as a 'Presto CD' - recently made and therefore free of the problem. Looks like I should get one.
At
@Elgarian Redux, I can only second your preference for the Svetlanov recording of
Antar. It really is something special.
Quote from: Der lächelnde Schatten on February 19, 2025, 07:04:36 AMAt @Elgarian Redux, I can only second your preference for the Svetlanov recording of Antar. It really is something special.
Not 'preference' (though it may eventually become that), but 'reference'. I've yet to hear any recording of
Antar that didn't make me melt, and that's why I offered the
caveat at the start of my review of the Jiri Belohlavek. My point about the Svetlanov is that it fired the starting pistol.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 19, 2025, 07:58:53 AMNot 'preference' (though it may eventually become that), but 'reference'. I've yet to hear any recording of Antar that didn't make me melt, and that's why I offered the caveat at the start of my review of the Jiri Belohlavek. My point about the Svetlanov is that it fired the starting pistol.
Excellent. Well, to be fair, I need to revisit this work myself as it's been probably more than a decade since I've listened to it. In fact, spending more time with Rimsky-Korsakov should be something I have to set my sights on in the near future.
Quote from: Der lächelnde Schatten on February 19, 2025, 08:03:11 AMExcellent. Well, to be fair, I need to revisit this work myself as it's been probably more than a decade since I've listened to it.
I hope you get as much joy out of it as I'm getting at present.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 19, 2025, 07:58:53 AMNot 'preference' (though it may eventually become that), but 'reference'. I've yet to hear any recording of Antar that didn't make me melt, and that's why I offered the caveat at the start of my review of the Jiri Belohlavek. My point about the Svetlanov is that it fired the starting pistol.
I, too, have some pieces of which I feel I've never heard a bad performance/recording.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 19, 2025, 06:12:18 AMRegarding the Rimsky symphonies - a quick shout-out for Yondani Butt's set over 2 discs on OOP ASV;
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61XLFhq67dL._UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)(https://i.discogs.com/o4RNl9VcoSX6rU4lDh60PcmwCt4Smy0cdPgQhCC4-yY/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:497/w:500/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE2MzY4/NTkxLTE2MDczMjQ3/MTItNjEwNy5qcGVn.jpeg)
These can still be found at reasonable prices although you need to beware of bronzing on some ASV discs. Butt was very good in this Romantic Russian repertoire - see his Glazunov that I praised quite recently. And the recording and playing is suitably opulent and powerful
Better still, they can be found in this set:
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/oct02/Rimsky_brilliant.jpg)
Full content and positive review here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/oct02/Rimsky_Brilliant.htm
Quote from: Florestan on February 19, 2025, 08:43:31 AMBetter still, they can be found in this set:
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/oct02/Rimsky_brilliant.jpg)
Full content and positive review here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/oct02/Rimsky_Brilliant.htm
Sir, I have long considered you to be a Gentleman and a Scholar, and this confirms my belief! I've just picked up that Brilliant set for £4!! Thank you, Andrei.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 17, 2025, 10:35:59 AMI confess that I never went through a phase of finding Scheherazade a 'flashy ... orchestral spectacular', but I did love its programmatic aspect right from the beginning, and never fell out of love with it in 60 years. I kept on accumulating other music and just took Scheherazade along with me.
The weird thing though is that I've listened to Antar several times over the years, and it made no impact on me at all - until NOW. (Why now? It's not exactly hard to listen to, is it?) And here I am today, its tunes running through my head even when I'm not listening to it, accompanied by dazzlingly coloured mental images of gazelles, fearsome giant birds, ruined cities, desert winds, and magic temptresses. Bloomin' marvellous!
Tbh, while Rimsky-Korsakov was a
very early acquaintance in my musical exposure ( l can sing
Scheherazade in its entirety to anyone brave/ foolish enough to listen ),
Antar has somehow eluded me completely... right up to this specific thread. :o
So I'll catch up with y'all, and post my take on the work.
Besides... magic temptresses? I'm definitely in! ;D
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 19, 2025, 10:28:23 AMSir, I have long considered you to be a Gentleman and a Scholar, and this confirms my belief! I've just picked up that Brilliant set for £4!! Thank you, Andrei.
I'm glad to have been of service, John! And btw, likewise! ;)
Quote from: LKB on February 19, 2025, 10:52:33 AMTbh, while Rimsky-Korsakov was a very early acquaintance in my musical exposure ( l can sing Scheherazade in its entirety to anyone brave/ foolish enough to listen ), Antar has somehow eluded me completely... right up to this specific thread. :o
So I'll catch up with y'all, and post my take on the work.
Besides... magic temptresses? I'm definitely in! ;D
Look, I don't want to draw you in under false pretences. There is in fact only
one magic temptress. BUT she can change into a gazelle at will, and that must count for something.
Seriously, you are in for a such a treat.
Quote from: Florestan on February 19, 2025, 10:55:01 AMI'm glad to have been of service, John! And btw, likewise! ;)
If we're sticklers for accuracy, I suppose I could change my name to John. Or you could call me Alan.
On the other hand, you've mistakenly called me John for years, and there is this thing called tradition and that carries some weight ...
Yr Obd't Serv't, Sir.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 19, 2025, 11:07:08 AMIf we're sticklers for accuracy, I suppose I could change my name to John. Or you could call me Alan.
On the other hand, you've mistakenly called me John for years, and there is this thing called tradition and that carries some weight ...
Yr Obd't Serv't, Sir.
Drat! Sorry, Alan! Tbh, I hesitated to call you anything, but eventually took my chance and missed the mark once again.
Note to self: utter "Rimsky, Elgar, Alan" ten times before Pater Noster each night for ten nigths. :laugh:
Quote from: Florestan on February 19, 2025, 11:17:24 AMDrat! Sorry, Alan! Tbh, I hesitated to call you anything, but eventually took my chance and missed the mark once again.
Note to self: utter "Rimsky, Elgar, Alan" ten times before Pater Noster each night for ten nigths. :laugh:
Actually you used to get it right a long time ago, but then I was absent for a few years (you see, I have only myself to blame for all this), and memory is a fickle beast.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 19, 2025, 11:22:02 AMActually you used to get it right a long time ago, but then I was absent for a few years (you see, I have only myself to blame for all this), and memory is a fickle beast.
Some of our memories (mine f'rinstance) is fickler than others!
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 19, 2025, 12:42:03 PMSome of our memories (mine f'rinstance) is fickler than others!
Some days I can remember dinosaurs at the bottom of the garden.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 19, 2025, 12:55:36 PMSome days I can remember dinosaurs at the bottom of the garden.
Don't let the trilobites bite!
I tried "Antar" today because of the recent activity on this thread. It's beautiful, but it seemed lacking in drama. (For example, I didn't hear Antar rescuing the gazelle in the first movement.) Maybe I'll like it better in a few years!
(https://i.discogs.com/DBMlwBk4lWZO4nIuGlgrAwBB9TW90RA0jt3YRi4NI-4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:198/w:200/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTgzNjAz/ODktMTQ2MDA5Njg0/NC0zMTA1LmpwZWc.jpeg)
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 19, 2025, 01:04:08 PMDon't let the trilobites bite!
Too late. In my first year as an undergraduate (1965-6), I chose to do Geology as a subsidiary course. While on a field trip in Derbyshire I picked up a chunk of shale, hit it with my hammer, and out popped the trilobite fossil of my dreams. The Official Geologist Supervisor observed that there was a lot of stone obscuring the details, and offered to clean it up for me. Ooh yes please, I said. That was the last I ever saw of it. So I was bitten - not by a trilobite, it's true - but by a trilobite hunter.
Off topic? No. I would have been whistling
Scheherazade as I chipped away at the rocks.
Quote from: Mapman on February 19, 2025, 05:12:01 PMI tried "Antar" today because of the recent activity on this thread. It's beautiful, but it seemed lacking in drama. (For example, I didn't hear Antar rescuing the gazelle in the first movement.) Maybe I'll like it better in a few years!
(https://i.discogs.com/DBMlwBk4lWZO4nIuGlgrAwBB9TW90RA0jt3YRi4NI-4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:198/w:200/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTgzNjAz/ODktMTQ2MDA5Njg0/NC0zMTA1LmpwZWc.jpeg)
My
memory (hazy, distant, probably flawed) of this particular performance is that it was surprisingly low key and disappointing. I love the old 'proper' Svetlanov/Melodiya recordings of just about any/all Russian repertoire but these early digital remakes that appeared on RCA were rather perfunctory I recall (dimly - haven't heard them in literal decades!)
Quote from: Mapman on February 19, 2025, 05:12:01 PMI tried "Antar" today because of the recent activity on this thread. It's beautiful, but it seemed lacking in drama. (For example, I didn't hear Antar rescuing the gazelle in the first movement.) Maybe I'll like it better in a few years!
(https://i.discogs.com/DBMlwBk4lWZO4nIuGlgrAwBB9TW90RA0jt3YRi4NI-4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:198/w:200/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTgzNjAz/ODktMTQ2MDA5Njg0/NC0zMTA1LmpwZWc.jpeg)
Try this:
Start at about 3.50, with the entrance of the gazelle. At 4.28 some sort of threat is indicated and the bird swoops. At 4.55-ish Antar attacks the bird, and by 5.20 the bird has been driven off. It doesn't last long, nor is it much of a big deal - after all, Antar is a tough guy.
That's how I read it - others may read it differently. I don't know how literally we can expect to match the music with the events of the tale.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 19, 2025, 06:25:19 AM(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=120449;image)
The first of my recent Antar purchases has arrived, and I've just finished listening to it. And I realise that in a way, I ought to disqualify myself from commenting on all these recordings, because I haven't yet heard a performance of Antar that didn't wring my heart and leave me in a state of wonder. So I fear that I might end up just gushing about one recording after another. We'll see. If that happens, I promise I'll stop.
It might be as well to note that my 'goto' performance, at present is this one:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71w7OBA1RZL._AC_UY327_QL65_.jpg)
I don't propose to compare everything with this, not by any means, but it may be helpful to know that this is the recording that first blew me away a couple of weeks ago.
So, then, to this Supraphon recording, conducted by Jiri Belohlavek with the BRNO State Philharmonic Orchestra. It has the distinction of being recommended by distinguished GMG friend and colleague, vandermolen.
This is not like Svetlanov. To find overarching words to describe it, I'd go for 'lyrical', 'smooth', 'expressive but restrained'. At times it felt a little bit 'Hollywood', but in the nicest, smoothest possible way - I say this not as a derogatory comment but a tentatively descriptive one. In the two middle movements the guy on the big drum earns his pay very effectively and sensitively without bashing the heck out of my ears.
The gazelle/princess Gul Nazar music is deliciously sensual whenever it occurs, rippling through the score like a silk scarf in a gentle breeze. Anyone would fall in love with her on the basis of listening to this.
If this recording had been my first experience of Antar, would I have been blown away? Oh yes. Would this replace my Svetlanov CD? No. But neither would the Svetlanov be able to replace this. I want both readings of this music. I have both. I am, in that respect, a happy fellow.
I await the postman for the next one.
Here's my favourite:
He hasn't been anyone's recommendation for Antar, and as yet his seems to be the sole Antar I've heard as yet, so that I'm not sure I feel qualified to offer it as a rec. but I do enjoy Dmitri Kitaenko's recording with the Bergen Phil.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 19, 2025, 08:42:36 AMI, too, have some pieces of which I feel I've never heard a bad performance/recording.
I've also never heard a 'bad' performance of 'Antar'.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 20, 2025, 02:17:19 AMHe hasn't been anyone's recommendation for Antar, and as yet his seems to be the sole Antar I've heard as yet, so that I'm not sure I feel qualified to offer it as a rec. but I do enjoy Dmitri Kitaenko's recording with the Bergen Phil.
I'm sheepishly conscious of appearing to echo
@Elgarian Redux (and why not, if it come to that?) but I seem to bed having an "
Antar, where have you been, all my life?" Moment, myself.
I don't recall hearing Antar before? Will have to look into it.
K
Quote from: vandermolen on February 20, 2025, 02:14:46 AMHere's my favourite: [Gould & Chicago SO]
Unfortunately there seems to be no way of getting it on CD. I've
made one, using an internet source, but it's not hifi of course, and so for comparison purposes the playing field isn't level. Like Karl, I think the cover art is great.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 20, 2025, 02:28:54 AMI'm sheepishly conscious of appearing to echo @Elgarian Redux (and why not, if it come to that?) but I seem to bed having an "Antar, where have you been, all my life?" Moment, myself.
You must surely have realised after all these years that I rarely know what I'm talking about?
But I do sympathise with the 'where have you been' response, and at present I have fights with the postman if he doesn't bring me a new
Antar CD every day.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 20, 2025, 02:17:19 AMHe hasn't been anyone's recommendation for Antar, and as yet his seems to be the sole Antar I've heard as yet, so that I'm not sure I feel qualified to offer it as a rec. but I do enjoy Dmitri Kitaenko's recording with the Bergen Phil.
Here's the 1st movement on Youtube:
I'm listening to it now.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 20, 2025, 06:04:17 AMI'm listening to it now.
Well, I'm inclined to go along with the view expressed above by vandermolen, that maybe there aren't any bad recordings of
Antar. This Kitajenko version (at least, its 1st movement) strikes me as very lovely - smooth and understated, perhaps, but why not? I'm happy to listen to this for as long as you like. I notice that I'm missing a certain sparkle, but I think that's probably due to the limitations of the sound source.
Ansermet's version arrived today. The postman lives to deliver another day.
Still in the pipeline: Zinman, Jarvi, Bakels, and Butt.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 20, 2025, 06:21:21 AMWell, I'm inclined to go along with the view expressed above by vandermolen, that maybe there aren't any bad recordings of Antar. This Kitajenko version (at least, its 1st movement) strikes me as very lovely - smooth and understated, perhaps, but why not? I'm happy to listen to this for as long as you like. I notice that I'm missing a certain sparkle, but I think that's probably due to the limitations of the sound source.
Ansermet's version arrived today. The postman lives to deliver another day.
How many versions have you ordered lately?! :o
K
Quote from: Kalevala on February 20, 2025, 06:30:09 AMHow many versions have you ordered lately?! :o
K
Well there are 4 in the pipeline listed above; today's arrival (Ansermet); and the Supraphon recording reviewed above. I already had two Svetlanov recordings.
When I did a similar sort of blitz about 10 years ago, with recordings of
Scheherazade, I had a wonderful time and ended up with nearly 20 versions. I found the adventure really worthwhile, and it left me with a host of different
Scheherazades to listen to: which is one reason why it never seems stale to me.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 20, 2025, 06:21:21 AMWell, I'm inclined to go along with the view expressed above by vandermolen, that maybe there aren't any bad recordings of Antar. This Kitajenko version (at least, its 1st movement) strikes me as very lovely - smooth and understated, perhaps, but why not? I'm happy to listen to this for as long as you like. I notice that I'm missing a certain sparkle, but I think that's probably due to the limitations of the sound source.
Ansermet's version arrived today. The postman lives to deliver another day.
Still in the pipeline: Zinman, Jarvi, Bakels, and Butt.
I expect
Maazel/Pbgh on Monday.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 20, 2025, 06:04:17 AMHere's the 1st movement on Youtube:
I'm listening to it now.
'Tis certain, I love
Antar as keenly as I do
Sheherazade, the
Capriccio espagnol and the
Russian Easter Ov!
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 20, 2025, 12:03:07 AMTry this:
Start at about 3.50, with the entrance of the gazelle. At 4.28 some sort of threat is indicated and the bird swoops. At 4.55-ish Antar attacks the bird, and by 5.20 the bird has been driven off. It doesn't last long, nor is it much of a big deal - after all, Antar is a tough guy.
That's how I read it - others may read it differently. I don't know how literally we can expect to match the music with the events of the tale.
(Said with warm humor and not mockery, I hope)
This reminds me of the guy in college who told us exactly when the fisherman in Schubert's Trout Quintet catches the trout!
Quote from: Brian on February 20, 2025, 08:33:55 AM(Said with warm humor and not mockery, I hope)
This reminds me of the guy in college who told us exactly when the fisherman in Schubert's Trout Quintet catches the trout!
And how do you know he wasn't right? ;D
Quote from: Brian on February 20, 2025, 08:33:55 AM(Said with warm humor and not mockery, I hope)
This reminds me of the guy in college who told us exactly when the fisherman in Schubert's Trout Quintet catches the trout!
I'm paraphrasing from memory, but with
De l'aube à midi sur la mer in mind,
Satie said that his favorite part of
Debussy's La mer was at about a quarter to twelve.
Quote from: Brian on February 20, 2025, 08:33:55 AM(Said with warm humor and not mockery, I hope)
This reminds me of the guy in college who told us exactly when the fisherman in Schubert's Trout Quintet catches the trout!
Yeah, but could he tell what bait was used?
Actually, I do think there are distinct passages in
Antar that invite a more-or-less literal interpretation. The first appearance of the gazelle, for instance, is unmistakeable. And that's followed by the thrumming of strings which is clearly threatening, getting louder and louder (as the bird approaches) ... We don't
have to listen like that, but I think the music and the programme invite us to.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 20, 2025, 06:56:19 AMI expect Maazel/Pbgh on Monday.
Just found one of those myself, this evening. These CDs have been coming at about £5 each, typically: not much in comparison to the pleasure they're bringing. But I think I may draw the line now, and declare my experiment complete (as far as the
buying is concerned, I mean).
Quote from: Brian on February 20, 2025, 08:33:55 AM(Said with warm humor and not mockery, I hope)
This reminds me of the guy in college who told us exactly when the fisherman in Schubert's Trout Quintet catches the trout!
Hmm, I am curious! 🎣
Leaping upon the Antarian Bandwagon today I have to say I enjoyed it greatly as well! One thing I was struck by is I wonder if Gliere was influenced when he came to write Ilya Murometz. Obviously that work is on a far more extended scale but the handling of material - heroic Slavic 'anthems' skittish playful scherzi feel quite similar. Obviously the musical eco-system for both composers is the same but today it felt as though the link was more than just a shared cultural landscape.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/a~kAAOSwPvNnhSQB/s-l500.jpg)
And so to Ansermet's Antar, with his Swiss fellows.
It's rich, lush, and weighty where it needs to be. I imagine that anyone could listen to this and enjoy the music, as I did. But for me there is something missing. I find the orientalism is understated, so that where I expect to hear mysterious eastern promise, I hear merely a different kind of lusciousness. For me, that really matters. I want the music to transport me to the ruins of the ancient city of Palmyra; I want to meet the sexy magic princess who can change herself into a gazelle, but what I seem to hear is 'a beautiful princess', which isn't quite the same thing.
If you want the music - you'll get it, and very lovely too. If you want the dream, the mystique, the distant eastern skies, the magic in the air - well, I didn't get that. And that, for me, puts a question mark against Ansermet's interpretation.
No CDs in the post this morning. Heads will have to roll.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 21, 2025, 04:58:02 AMNo CDs in the post this morning. Heads will have to roll.
I imagine your postman looks like a bodybuilder by now from lifting your heavy boxes of CDs every day! :laugh:
Quote from: DavidW on February 21, 2025, 06:00:33 AMI imagine your postman looks like a bodybuilder by now from lifting your heavy boxes of CDs every day! :laugh:
Actually it's years since I bought so many CDs in a short time, so his muscles have had plenty of time to atrophy. (I'd never dare to threaten a
muscular postman!)
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 21, 2025, 07:05:29 AMActually it's years since I bought so many CDs in a short time, so his muscles have had plenty of time to atrophy. (I'd never dare to threaten a muscular postman!)
My mama didn't raise no fools!
(https://i1.sndcdn.com/artworks-s4zyPKQrNiabf2n4-HP2MDQ-t1080x1080.jpg)
Now this (Morton Gould and the Chicago SO) has had several recommendations (@vandermolen and
@Brian), and I dearly wish I were able to get it on CD without bankcrupting myself. Instead I made a CD from a copy uploaded to the internet. So there's a
caveat here, about audio quality.
But to heck with all that. This is a rich Cinemascope Epic rendering of
Antar, which nonetheless is highly articulate and nuanced in all the right places. I loved it, really loved it. The princess is sexily entwining, the Revenge movement is fearful, the Power movement is robust but sensitive. At certain moments in the final movement I found myself in tears (though I do have a reputation as an old softie).
I'll be very interested to see what happens when I go back to Svetlanov after all this. But for the moment, I need to find an affordable copy of this on CD, because if this is merely mp3 quality, then what am I missing? This is a Giant Cracker of a recorded performance.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 20, 2025, 12:03:07 AMTry this:
Start at about 3.50, with the entrance of the gazelle. At 4.28 some sort of threat is indicated and the bird swoops. At 4.55-ish Antar attacks the bird, and by 5.20 the bird has been driven off. It doesn't last long, nor is it much of a big deal - after all, Antar is a tough guy.
That's how I read it - others may read it differently. I don't know how literally we can expect to match the music with the events of the tale.
Thank you! I like your description of the events as they occur in the music.
Quote from: Mapman on February 21, 2025, 05:36:37 PMThank you! I like your description of the events as they occur in the music.
The whole bird episode is understated in the Jarvi performance I linked to above. In the Gould/Chicago SO recording it's more dramatic. See below:
Gould/Chicago/Antar (https://soundcloud.com/user-154424249/antar-cr)
You can hear the drama unfold from the first appearance of the gazelle (3.32), through to the disappearance of the bird at 4.55. In this recording there's an audible clash of steel as Antar strikes at the bird (4.32).
This morning brought Maazel/Pittsburgh and the Butt/Philharmonia (with their Antar included in the Brilliant 4-CD set).
I think I have a bit of a problem. I was so thrilled yesterday by the Morton Gould recording of Antar, and it's so fresh in my mind, that I know I won't be able to help comparing all the new ones with it. I listened to the Maazel today (great artwork by the way), and it was great - very fine - but all the time there was a little voice asking if it was as 'good' as the Gould. And that's no use. I need to take a break, so I can approach each new recording on its own terms.
I cannot find an english translation, but in his Monsieur Croche (or in la Revue blanche, March 1903), Debussy writes a glowing account of listening to Antar, as conducted by Camille Chevillard:
"a masterpiece, orchestral brillance..;, intoxicating rythms...;it is impossible to remain unmoved by the power of this music etc"
I'll try to find a complete text.
Nice!
I couldn't resist having a preliminary listen to
Yondani Butt and the LSO's version of
Antar this evening, despite my intention to lie fallow for a bit. I'm listening to the 1st movement now, and it is so delicate I could weep for joy. So light, so airy - palm leaves swaying in a gentle desert breeze, the gazelle/princess flitting lightly from stone to stone in the ruins of Palmyra. Heck, I can almost feel the sand between my toes.
This is entirely
adorable! I feel as if I'm listening to this music for the first time, even though I've been flogging at it for days. Many thanks to
@Roasted Swan and
@vandermolen (again) for their recommendations of this. This is quite fabulous. What a wonderful adventure this is turning out to be.
I'm further on now ... third movement, and it goes on and on being exquisite. Crikey, I utterly
love this!
My favourite Rimsky-K work is The Invisible City of Kitezh (already recommended on page 1).
I don't think the story is great--it's two Russian fairy tales jammed together--but it's a very satisfying musical experience.
I remember now that Colette wrote about Debussy (and Rimsky)... Here it is, from "Trait pour trait":
Every time I met Claude Debussy, it was in the sonorous warmth, the light fever of an exclusively musical atmosphere. A composer at the piano, a singer leaning on both elbows at the bare piano, a singer who did not leave her armchair to sing, and who exhaled the melody like a negligent smoke, head thrown back. If Louis de Serres left the keyboard, Pierre de Bréville replaced him, or Charles Bordes, or Déodat de Séverac. Vincent d'Indy amused himself shyly, improvising a waltz for barrel organ that he interrupted as if shame had burned him on the rack and pinion bench. Gabriel Fauré and André Messager, suddenly rivals, took his place to improvise four hands. The rhythm under their hands became daredevil, and any modulation became an ambush.
At such times music seemed to intoxicate Debussy. His goat-foot (faun) face, amber, his twisted locks where the eye sought the leaf and the vine, quivered with an inner delirium. In moments of intense fixity, his pupils met their gaze slightly, in the manner of hunting animals hypnotized by their own watch. It seems to me that he loved music as the crystal tulip loves the shock that draws from it a pure sound.
One Sunday evening we were brought together, when we had heard Antar performed for the first time in France, unless it was Scheherazade, and Debussy, obsessed, conquered, sang his symphonic memory within himself. A sort of swarm rumbling, or telegraph pole buzz, came from him, a groping and indecisive murmur. Then the memory became clearer, and his closed face suddenly opened.
"Wait! wait!" he said very loudly. Like this... mmmm... and like this: mmmm...
One of us grabbed it on the fly, stretched the recovered melodic shred.
"Yes, yes," cried Debussy. And during this time it was the cellos in the bass that said: mmm... And the timpani, good God, the timpani, nothing but a quiver that announced the explosion of the brass, and... and...
With his mouth closed, then meowing as he imitated the violins, he panted, torn apart by the timbres that battled in his memory. The poker, grasped, he used to hammer the rosewood of the piano. With his free hand, he made "zzzziii!" along the glass, then smacked his lips dryly, recalling the xylophone, and said "doug, doug" in a crystalline voice, to give us back the liquid drops of the "mustel" (celesta).
Standing, he used his voice, his arms, his feet, and two black locks of spiral hair danced on his forehead. His faun-like laughter did not respond to our laughter, but to an inner solicitation, and I engraved in myself the image of the great master of French music, in the process of inventing, before us, the jazz band.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 21, 2025, 04:58:02 AM(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/a~kAAOSwPvNnhSQB/s-l500.jpg)
And so to Ansermet's Antar, with his Swiss fellows.
It's rich, lush, and weighty where it needs to be. I imagine that anyone could listen to this and enjoy the music, as I did. But for me there is something missing. I find the orientalism is understated, so that where I expect to hear mysterious eastern promise, I hear merely a different kind of lusciousness. For me, that really matters. I want the music to transport me to the ruins of the ancient city of Palmyra; I want to meet the sexy magic princess who can change herself into a gazelle, but what I seem to hear is 'a beautiful princess', which isn't quite the same thing.
If you want the music - you'll get it, and very lovely too. If you want the dream, the mystique, the distant eastern skies, the magic in the air - well, I didn't get that. And that, for me, puts a question mark against Ansermet's interpretation.
No CDs in the post this morning. Heads will have to roll.
That's a great set!
Quote from: pjme on February 22, 2025, 11:59:18 PMI remember now that Colette wrote about Debussy (and Rimsky)... Here it is, from "Trait pour trait":
Every time I met Claude Debussy, it was in the sonorous warmth, the light fever of an exclusively musical atmosphere. A composer at the piano, a singer leaning on both elbows at the bare piano, a singer who did not leave her armchair to sing, and who exhaled the melody like a negligent smoke, head thrown back. If Louis de Serres left the keyboard, Pierre de Bréville replaced him, or Charles Bordes, or Déodat de Séverac. Vincent d'Indy amused himself shyly, improvising a waltz for barrel organ that he interrupted as if shame had burned him on the rack and pinion bench. Gabriel Fauré and André Messager, suddenly rivals, took his place to improvise four hands. The rhythm under their hands became daredevil, and any modulation became an ambush.
At such times music seemed to intoxicate Debussy. His goat-foot (faun) face, amber, his twisted locks where the eye sought the leaf and the vine, quivered with an inner delirium. In moments of intense fixity, his pupils met their gaze slightly, in the manner of hunting animals hypnotized by their own watch. It seems to me that he loved music as the crystal tulip loves the shock that draws from it a pure sound.
One Sunday evening we were brought together, when we had heard Antar performed for the first time in France, unless it was Scheherazade, and Debussy, obsessed, conquered, sang his symphonic memory within himself. A sort of swarm rumbling, or telegraph pole buzz, came from him, a groping and indecisive murmur. Then the memory became clearer, and his closed face suddenly opened.
"Wait! wait!" he said very loudly. Like this... mmmm... and like this: mmmm...
One of us grabbed it on the fly, stretched the recovered melodic shred.
"Yes, yes," cried Debussy. And during this time it was the cellos in the bass that said: mmm... And the timpani, good God, the timpani, nothing but a quiver that announced the explosion of the brass, and... and...
With his mouth closed, then meowing as he imitated the violins, he panted, torn apart by the timbres that battled in his memory. The poker, grasped, he used to hammer the rosewood of the piano. With his free hand, he made "zzzziii!" along the glass, then smacked his lips dryly, recalling the xylophone, and said "doug, doug" in a crystalline voice, to give us back the liquid drops of the "mustel" (celesta).
Standing, he used his voice, his arms, his feet, and two black locks of spiral hair danced on his forehead. His faun-like laughter did not respond to our laughter, but to an inner solicitation, and I engraved in myself the image of the great master of French music, in the process of inventing, before us, the jazz band.
But, but, but... There's no xylophone and no celesta in either
Sheherazade or
Antar. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2025, 02:28:50 AMBut, but, but... There's no xylophone and no celesta in either Sheherazade or Antar. ;D
Cher ami, madame Colette informs you that that is not of your business! She was at the concert and definitely heard (and saw!) a celesta and a xylophone!!! >:D
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/ColetteReveEgypte1907.JPG)
Sincèrement - avec mes salutations les plus distinguées,
Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette!
Quote from: pjme on February 23, 2025, 02:41:29 AMCher ami, madame Colette informs you that that is not of your business! She was at the concert and definitely heard (and saw!) a celesta and a xylophone!!! >:D
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/ColetteReveEgypte1907.JPG)
Sincèrement - avec mes salutations les plus distinguées,
Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette!
Dear Madam, I am sure that you were that night at a concert where the xylophone and the celesta were played. I am equally sure, though, that neither
Sheherazade nor
Antar were in the program. That being said, I have to admit that while your memory is faulty, your physique is impeccable.
I remain, Madam, your most obedient servant.
Excellent, votre politesse et perspicasité me plaisent beaucoup, cher monsieur!
Here is an old recording of Antar - indeed without celesta or xylophone....
In the midst of the Antar-itus that is sweeping the forum(!) I listened to the other 2 Rimsky Symphonies - they really are not nearly as appealing as Antar I reckon. Rimsky does have a happy knack for writing colourfully and descriptively. Which is probably why the orchestral excerpts from his operas are also as attractive as they. By contrast Symphonies 1&3 seem rather routine - nothing 'bad' but not at the exaulted level of his other works.....
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 23, 2025, 04:28:53 AMIn the midst of the Antar-itus that is sweeping the forum(!) I listened to the other 2 Rimsky Symphonies - they really are no nearly as appealing and Antar I reckon. Rimsky does have a happy knack for writing colourfully and descriptively. Which is probably why the orchestral excerpts from his operas are also as attractive as they. By contrast Symphonies 1&3 seem rather routine - nothing 'bad' but not at the exaulted level of his other works.....
That's very much my opinion too. I have to be careful here though, because I do have a distinct weakness for music with a programme, and in the case of
Antar I find the folk tale especially appealing, so that does influence my judgement.
Also I can see why R-K struggled with it when he thought (as he seems to have thought, initially), it was going to be a symphony. Basically he had just two tunes to play with, and so even though they are blisteringly good tunes, two tunes do not a symphony make, I suppose.
But for a piece of programmed music with only two characters, I suppose that in principle, two tunes might be all you need (especially since these are such gloriously appropriate tunes) to tell a rattling good story in music. And I believe Rimsky-K himself urged that we could call it whatever we liked, but
not a symphony.
So yes, I too find it hard to be interested in Symphonies 1 and 3, but your assessment will be based on sounder
musical principles than mine.
Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2025, 02:28:50 AMBut, but, but... There's no xylophone and no celesta in either Sheherazade or Antar. ;D
Who cares when its couched in prose such as that!
Quote from: pjme on February 23, 2025, 02:41:29 AMCher ami, madame Colette informs you that that is not of your business! She was at the concert and definitely heard (and saw!) a celesta and a xylophone!!! >:D
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/ColetteReveEgypte1907.JPG)
Sincèrement - avec mes salutations les plus distinguées,
Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette!
Seeing that image puts me in mind of two activities, neither of which would normally involve the xylophone or Celeste. >:D
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 23, 2025, 04:28:53 AMIn the midst of the Antar-itus that is sweeping the forum(!) I listened to the other 2 Rimsky Symphonies - they really are no nearly as appealing as Antar I reckon. Rimsky does have a happy knack for writing colourfully and descriptively. Which is probably why the orchestral excerpts from his operas are also as attractive as they. By contrast Symphonies 1&3 seem rather routine - nothing 'bad' but not at the exaulted level of his other works.....
Back in the era when I became utterly besotted with
Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet, I had also checked out from the Rochester Public Library, a set of the B symphonies. I still vividly remember my whirlwind
Prokofiev love. I didn't want ever to return it to the Library (though I was a good boy, and did) I remember nothing of
R-K from that time. I should guess that I tried the
First Symphony, that it failed to impress me, and that I did not even bother at the time with the others.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 23, 2025, 10:15:09 AMBack in the era when I became utterly besotted with Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet, I had also checked out from the Rochester Public Library, a set of the B symphonies. I still vividly remember my whirlwind Prokofiev love. I didn't want ever to return it to the Library (though I was a good boy, and did) I remember nothing of R-K from that time. I should guess that I tried the First Symphony, that it failed to impress me, and that I did not even bother at the time with the others.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 23, 2025, 10:29:08 AMThanks to the R-K thread, this is a test:
Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov
Symphony № 1 in e minor, Op. 1
Bergen Phil
Dmitri Kitaenko
I liked this much better than I expected. Is it one of my Top 50 symphonies? Probably not. Less inspired/engaging than
Antar? I'll stipulate that without considering it any mark against the e minor Symphony. I found it entirely interesting throughout and particularly got a little charge over the Polonaise Finale. The thought experiment I propose, if you like,
@Roasted Swan and
@Elgarian Redux is: listen to it as if it were
Tchaikovsky's Symphony № 0.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 23, 2025, 10:15:09 AM... particularly got a little charge over the Polonaise Finale.
Another
Tchaikovsky connection: a saucy little
fugato in the Polonaise.
I've not listened to Rimsky, pretty much at all, but this disc has completely changed my mind:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA0MjcxOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE3MDY5MjI3NjB9)
First, its production value might be the highest I've come across, which means, sonically, this is flawless.
Second, you could tell that everyone was in on this project. It is the entirety of the rainbow of emotions - delicate, gentle to complete, utter bombasity!
I'm definitely going to get at least one more disc of Rimsky's music to test the waters a bit more, and I suspect after that - Rimsky will become a favorite of mine. :)
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 23, 2025, 01:11:55 PMI liked this much better than I expected. Is it one of my Top 50 symphonies? Probably not. Less inspired/engaging than Antar? I'll stipulate that without considering it any mark against the e minor Symphony. I found it entirely interesting throughout and particularly got a little charge over the Polonaise Finale. The thought experiment I propose, if you like, @Roasted Swan and @Elgarian Redux is: listen to it as if it were Tchaikovsky's Symphony № 0.
Gosh this is interesting. You're on. I'll give it a go.
(I presume it's short on entwining magic princesses, though?)
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 23, 2025, 01:11:55 PMI liked this much better than I expected. Is it one of my Top 50 symphonies? Probably not. Less inspired/engaging than Antar? I'll stipulate that without considering it any mark against the e minor Symphony. I found it entirely interesting throughout and particularly got a little charge over the Polonaise Finale. The thought experiment I propose, if you like, @Roasted Swan and @Elgarian Redux is: listen to it as if it were Tchaikovsky's Symphony № 0.
Nice thought but not one I'd run with! Of course by date Rimsky 1 & Tchaik 1 are very close - although Rimsky revised his nearly 20 years after the original composition. I know the Rimsky was considered by Balakirev to be one of the first proper "Russian" symphonies in terms of harmony/melodic shape etc but I hear more of that in the Tchaikovsky.
My introduction to Rimsky was
not via Scheherzade but rather this recording;
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQ5ODIzMi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2ODQ5MjA3ODF9)
There was a programme on the BBC's classical music channel (Radio 3) and they played this old LP. I just loved all the bells and orthodox themes played in the heavy brass - something fervent and almost primal. Very different from the "Mystic East" of Antar or Scheherzade. To this day the Russian Easter Festival Overture is one of my Rimsky favourites bar none.
As a side note - this disc is a valuable reminder that Adrian Boult was much more than 'just' a stiff upper lip performer of British Music.....
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 23, 2025, 01:11:55 PMI liked this much better than I expected. Is it one of my Top 50 symphonies? Probably not. Less inspired/engaging than Antar? I'll stipulate that without considering it any mark against the e minor Symphony. I found it entirely interesting throughout and particularly got a little charge over the Polonaise Finale. The thought experiment I propose, if you like, @Roasted Swan and @Elgarian Redux is: listen to it as if it were Tchaikovsky's Symphony № 0.
Hmmm. I confess that, much as the first time I listened to it a few weeks ago, I'm struggling to pay attention.
@Roasted Swan's description of it as 'routine' does seem apposite. It seems worlds apart from
Antar to me, lacking almost all of the things that I look for in R-K. I don't think I'm familiar enough with Tchaikovsky's early symphonies to make any sensible comparison.
But I'd be the first to admit that I'm inordinately fond of making illuminating non-musical connections to the music I listen to, if the music permits it, and that must make me a poor judge of something like this, coming to it still burning with Antarian infatuation.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 24, 2025, 01:35:48 AMI'm inordinately fond of making illuminating non-musical connections to the music I listen to, if the music permits it
You mean something like the following, right? ;)
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg698444.html#msg698444
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg698694.html#msg698694
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 24, 2025, 01:35:48 AMHmmm. I confess that, much as the first time I listened to it a few weeks ago, I'm struggling to pay attention. @Roasted Swan's description of it as 'routine' does seem apposite. It seems worlds apart from Antar to me, lacking almost all of the things that I look for in R-K. I don't think I'm familiar enough with Tchaikovsky's early symphonies to make any sensible comparison.
But I'd be the first to admit that I'm inordinately fond of making illuminating non-musical connections to the music I listen to, if the music permits it, and that must make me a poor judge of something like this, coming to it still burning with Antarian infatuation.
Crudely put - I suspect the world of music listeners divides into music absolutists - "music cannot 'mean' anything" who enjoy music for the sheer beauty of its sound and the brilliance of its formal construction and the pictorialists who want to engage with music on more of an emotional "heart not head" manner.
Most of us are probably a mixture of the two - or engage with different genres of music in different ways. But broadly speaking I'm with you and like to discover (or imagine!) a narrative or emotion
behind the notes. I'm not suggesting for a moment that one approach is better or even preferable - just saying how I respond.
Quote from: Florestan on February 24, 2025, 02:19:58 AMYou mean something like the following, right? ;)
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg698444.html#msg698444
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg698694.html#msg698694
I mean almost EXACTLY like that! Not perhaps quite so detailed as you describe on those links, but certainly with some sort of narrative going on in my head - not necessarily continuous or sequentially intelligible, but vivid and running alongside the music. It's a process of painting in my head, somewhat Cezanne-like, images that form 'a harmony parallel to the music'.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 24, 2025, 02:58:21 AMCrudely put - I suspect the world of music listeners divides into music absolutists - "music cannot 'mean' anything" who enjoy music for the sheer beauty of its sound and the brilliance of its formal construction and the pictorialists who want to engage with music on more of an emotional "heart not head" manner.
Most of us are probably a mixture of the two - or engage with different genres of music in different ways. But broadly speaking I'm with you and like to discover (or imagine!) a narrative or emotion behind the notes. I'm not suggesting for a moment that one approach is better or even preferable - just saying how I respond.
I wish I could press the 'like' button multiple times. That's perfectly expressed, and I understand precisely what you mean.
Antar purchases coming to an end, now. This morning Jarvi and Zinman arrived. Just Bakels still to come, and in due course, when I've gone back to my roots with Svetlanov - arriving where I started and knowing the place for the first time (I hope) - I'll try to do some sort of round-up, maybe?
Incidentally I find some of the Antar CD artwork very evocative. The Gould, Butt, and Maazel particularly so.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 23, 2025, 11:28:37 PMI presume it's short on entwining magic princesses, though?)
Alas!
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 24, 2025, 01:35:48 AMHmmm. I confess that, much as the first time I listened to it a few weeks ago, I'm struggling to pay attention. @Roasted Swan's description of it as 'routine' does seem apposite. It seems worlds apart from Antar to me, lacking almost all of the things that I look for in R-K. I don't think I'm familiar enough with Tchaikovsky's early symphonies to make any sensible comparison.
But I'd be the first to admit that I'm inordinately fond of making illuminating non-musical connections to the music I listen to, if the music permits it, and that must make me a poor judge of something like this, coming to it still burning with Antarian infatuation.
You gave it a good shot. It seems to be a piece which just doesn't sing to either of you, and that's obviously fine. I'm content that I found it better than expected, which is a win. It was his Opus One, so perhaps "routine" is a little to be expected.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 24, 2025, 05:55:17 AMYou gave it a good shot. It seems to be a piece which just doesn't sing to either of you, and that's obviously fine. I'm content that I found it better than expected, which is a win. It was his Opus One, so perhaps "routine" is a little to be expected.
Definitely a win. For you, and for Nikolai!
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 24, 2025, 04:51:55 AMAntar purchases coming to an end, now. This morning Jarvi and Zinman arrived. Just Bakels still to come, and in due course, when I've gone back to my roots with Svetlanov - arriving where I started and knowing the place for the first time (I hope) - I'll try to do some sort of round-up, maybe?
Incidentally I find some of the Antar CD artwork very evocative. The Gould, Butt, and Maazel particularly so.
Antarmania is
TIGHT! 8)
Thanks to a website on Russian Choral Music:
Rimsky-Korsakov's Cherubic Hymn #1.Translation is here:
https://www.musicarussica.com/uploads/sheet_music_pieces/pdf_samples/497/Ri001.pdf?1331141269 (https://www.musicarussica.com/uploads/sheet_music_pieces/pdf_samples/497/Ri001.pdf?1331141269)
I may have to re-ignite an old tradition of mine that has laid dormant for nearly 10 years. For the month of March, it was "March Madness Russian Symphonies", for which I listen to one Russian symphony daily.
Listening right now to the Antar (Butt/Philharmonia) and it is exquisite music!
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 24, 2025, 07:28:35 AMI may have to re-ignite an old tradition of mine that has laid dormant for nearly 10 years. For the month of March, it was "March Madness Russian Symphonies", for which I listen to one Russian symphony daily.
Listening right now to the Antar (Butt/Philharmonia) and it is exquisite music!
Please post the list!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 24, 2025, 07:38:13 AMPlease post the list!
I might have even had a separate thread going for it, I can't recall?
Man, listening to the Antar again, I've come to the realization that I should be listening to this work way more often. :o
Just continuing the matter of the artwork, to fuel the Antarmania. These are my favourites so far. The Butt, alas, is only available with the ASV release. Its release on Brilliant has pretty dull artwork, I think. The Bakels (which I don't yet have but is on the way) might also be a contender, so I've included that, but is it actually illustrating Scheherazade?. I'd have thought the ruins of Palmyra might figure somewhere, but apparently not (unless the Bakels is an abstract representation of ruins). Is there a clear winner here?
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 24, 2025, 07:40:19 AMMan, listening to the Antar again, I've come to the realization that I should be listening to this work way more often. :o
You can hear me cheering, can't you!
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 24, 2025, 07:41:14 AMJust continuing the matter of the artwork, to fuel the Antarmania. These are my favourites so far. The Butt, alas, is only available with the ASV release. Its release on Brilliant has pretty dull artwork, I think. The Bakels (which I don't yet have but is on the way) might also be a contender, so I've included that, but is it actually illustrating Scheherazade?. I'd have thought the ruins of Palmyra might figure somewhere, but apparently not (unless the Bakels is an abstract representation of ruins). Is there a clear winner here?
Very "Fry's Turkish Delight" (full of Eastern Promise.....) For those not from this Sceptered Isle - it was a long-running series of TV adverts for a
really sickly chocolate covered version of turkish delight. Along with "Cadbury's Flake" and "The Milk Tray Man" it represents the high-noon of British TV confectionary advertising............. ;)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 24, 2025, 08:08:32 AMVery "Fry's Turkish Delight" (full of Eastern Promise.....) For those not from this Sceptered Isle - it was a long-running series of TV adverts for a really sickly chocolate covered version of turkish delight. Along with "Cadbury's Flake" and "The Milk Tray Man" it represents the high-noon of British TV confectionary advertising............. ;)
Not a recommendation, then?
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 24, 2025, 08:08:32 AMVery "Fry's Turkish Delight" (full of Eastern Promise.....)
I'm glad you brought this up. It's a little known fact that Gul Nazar brought about Antar's death by feeding him Turkish Delight, encouraging him to gorge himself into oblivion.
Currently listening to David Zinman and the Rotterdam Phil's version of
Antar. Nobody will be carried away by the artwork, but the music is very lovely, very delicately done.
@vandermolen's proposition that there may not be a poor version of
Antar is starting to look like a good rule of thumb. This is a highly articulate version, recorded with great clarity. Maybe I'm approaching saturation, but for me the gazelle doesn't seem quite so delicately nimble and entwining as I've heard in the Butt recording, for example. So the tone is 'clear and steady', here. This gazelle takes a bit longer over the fallen stones, and she will not trip.
But maybe I'm searching for differences purely in order to say something. If this were your only
Antar, you'd fall in love with it. 'Nuff said.
Maazel has landed. Alan's pic is better, so I'll leave off.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 24, 2025, 04:38:08 PMMaazel has landed.
Hoorah. You'll be the better for it, I warrant.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 25, 2025, 12:23:08 AMHoorah. You'll be the better for it, I warrant.
Yes, with the side benefit that my appreciation for the
Tchaikovsky c minor Symphony waxes greater yet.
Reposting here, from the WAYLT thread. Now into the last movement, and there's a lot of lovely, graceful music here.
Quote from: brewski on February 25, 2025, 03:07:48 PMOn impulse, after reading comments in the Rimsky-Korsakov thread and as a fan of the composer, listening to the Symphony No. 1 for the first time, in the Kitajenko/Bergen version. At the risk of placing the bar too low, am I having a good time? Yes. Is it like WOW UNBELIEVABLE? No. One other criterion, which I find helpful for any piece of music: would I listen to it again? Probably. In a way it reminds me of why I like Scriabin's First Symphony, a piece I adore even in its relative naivete.
Probably overthinking it, but liking it for what it is, and the performance is excellent.
Quote from: brewski on February 25, 2025, 03:14:55 PMReposting here, from the WAYLT thread. Now into the last movement, and there's a lot of lovely, graceful music here.
A good piece, agreed!
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 25, 2025, 01:36:30 PMYes, with the side benefit that my appreciation for the Tchaikovsky c minor Symphony waxes greater yet.
Blinkered by my temporary monocular Antaristic vision, I hadn't actually registered the fact, till now, that the Maazel disc could be said to couple two 2nd symphonies. (And yes, Rimsky ultimately declared
Antar not to be a symphony after all, but you know what I mean.)
Footnote 1:I decided to go back and listen to Svetlanov's
Antar (with the Philharmonia Orch.) - the recording that kickstarted this entire pilgrimage of mine - to see if my recent explorations had affected my view of it. No, it's fabulous. The early woodwind depiction of the gazelle is possibly the most deliciously ripplingest that I've heard.
Also, looking ahead to a time when I listen to something other than
Antar (!!), and sifting through my recent CD arrivals, I'm starting to appreciate what a bonanza pile of other R-K orchestral works I've accumulated, almost inadvertently. The future does not look dull!
Footnote 2Has anybody read (and can recommend) R-K's autobiographical
My Musical Life?
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 24, 2025, 08:08:32 AMVery "Fry's Turkish Delight" (full of Eastern Promise.....) For those not from this Sceptered Isle - it was a long-running series of TV adverts for a really sickly chocolate covered version of turkish delight. Along with "Cadbury's Flake" and "The Milk Tray Man" it represents the high-noon of British TV confectionary advertising............. ;)
Wasn't George Lazenby, who briefly played James Bond, 'Big Fry' in some of those adverts? ;D
Not 'Antar' but another striking 'Full of Eastern Promise' CD cover:
Quote from: vandermolen on February 25, 2025, 11:31:03 PMNot 'Antar' but another striking 'Full of Eastern Promise' CD cover:
Gosh, that's quite a daunting image! Surely a magic princess!
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 26, 2025, 01:29:38 AMGosh, that's quite a daunting image! Surely a magic princess!
Definitely! I like the music as well.
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=120667;image)
After a long wait, this has finally arrived. I've been very keen to listen to it, because I've read conflicting reviews about it: one saying it's the best Antar to be found anywhere in the universe, and the other saying 'Oh no it isn't'. So I'm going to find out.
I do like the cover art, whatever it means.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 26, 2025, 04:57:55 AM(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=120667;image)
After a long wait, this has finally arrived. I've been very keen to listen to it, because I've read conflicting reviews about it: one saying it's the best Antar to be found anywhere in the universe, and the other saying 'Oh no it isn't'. So I'm going to find out.
I do like the cover art, whatever it means.
Looks like an interesting release.
Quote from: vandermolen on February 26, 2025, 06:38:38 AMLooks like an interesting release.
I look forward to your report. I really enjoyed
Bakels' RVW on Naxos back when (still do)
I've had a smashing half-hour listening to Kees Bakels and the Malaysian PO playing
Antar. Is it, as someone reviewed it on Classics Today, 'the
Antar we've been waiting for'? No, that would do less than justice to some other wonderful renderings. Is it merely average? No. I find it full of colour, delectably quasi-eastern, full of detail, but rich and weighty where it counts. The trill of the gazelle's light steps among the ruins (one of my touchstones) is delicious.
So I think I'm in a position to see where I am after this great journey. The
caveat is that I only have myself to please here. I've been trying to find the recorded interpretations that delight me most, and which, I hope, will allow me to listen to
Antar a lot in the future without it growing stale. I'm not trying to find 'The Best' (whatever that might mean). I'm quite sure that others would make different judgements.
First up, then: for me, there are four recordings that stand clear of the rest - recordings that I could not now be without. Performances that I know I shall return to again and again for their sensitive presentations of the music. They are:
Morton Gould and the Chicago SO: The Cinemascope, majestic, superb, sweeping, epic
Antar. Not to be missed.
Yevgeny Svetlanov and the Philharmonia: My introduction to the magic of
Antar, still loved after all this listening marathon.
Yondani Butt and the Philharmonia Orchestra: The lightest, airiest, 'take me on a flying carpet' version of
Antar.
Kees Bakels and the Malaysian PO: Rich and powerful in the inner movements, always offering delicate detail where I hope to find it, and full of eastern promise.
That leaves the highly commended group. Every one of these has rewarded my attention with jewels, but perhaps not so much as to be unforgettable:
Lorin Maazel and the Pittsburgh SO
Jiri Belohlavek and the BRNO State PO
David Zinman and the Rotterdam PO
Neeme Jarvi and the Goteborgs SymfonikerThe only one that disappointed me - and this for purely personal reasons - is
Ernest Ansermet and L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande. It's beautifully played, very romantic, and lots of folk will love it, but I felt it lacked some of the essential (for me) eastern magic.
When I started this,
@vandermolen wondered if maybe there are no bad
Antar recordings. I think he's right.
@Elgarian Redux most interesting and highly gratifying.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 26, 2025, 07:54:04 AM@Elgarian Redux most interesting and highly gratifying.
Your Servant, Sir. It's been an enthralling ride, and enormously personally rewarding. And now I have all these marvellous R-K discs, which mostly cost me next to nothing.
I've ordered a copy of
My Musical Life, to see what it's all about from Nikolai's point of view.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 24, 2025, 05:55:17 AMYou gave it a good shot. It seems to be a piece which just doesn't sing to either of you, and that's obviously fine. I'm content that I found it better than expected, which is a win. It was his Opus One, so perhaps "routine" is a little to be expected.
I should add, though, that to dismiss the
Andante tranquillo (the second mvt of the
First Symphony) as "routine" is awful harsh. I should not be ashamed to have composed it.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 26, 2025, 02:11:29 PMI should add, though, that to dismiss the Andante tranquillo (the second mvt of the First Symphony) as "routine" is awful harsh. I should not be ashamed to have composed it.
I wouldn't, myself, dismiss it at all. Rather, I merely felt uninvolved, finding it hard to stay interested, when I was listening to it recently. I wouldn't want to confuse the inherent musical merits of the piece with my decidedly limited appreciation of it. You are a
far better judge than I am, Karl.
Incidentally, in the course of this experiment, I've acquired (inadvertently) several recordings of symphonies 1 and 3. So who knows what might happen next?
You know, this composer doesn't get enough recordings in the opera world. I was looking for a recording of The Tale of Tsar Saltan (not the suites, those are everywhere) and there were very few available. Most were from 50+ years ago. The Golden Cockerel was similarly difficult to find but I managed to find a good mid 1980's complete opera from Svetlanov.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 27, 2025, 01:07:56 AMI wouldn't, myself, dismiss it at all. Rather, I merely felt uninvolved, finding it hard to stay interested, when I was listening to it recently. I wouldn't want to confuse the inherent musical merits of the piece with my decidedly limited appreciation of it. You are a far better judge than I am, Karl.
Incidentally, in the course of this experiment, I've acquired (inadvertently) several recordings of symphonies 1 and 3. So who knows what might happen next?
I do recall your reporting feeling unengaged, and one's responses are inarguably genuine. I'm unsure I've listened to the Third Symphony. I'm reserving it for Russian March Madness with
@ChamberNut
Quote from: relm1 on February 27, 2025, 05:31:40 AMYou know, this composer doesn't get enough recordings in the opera world. I was looking for a recording of The Tale of Tsar Saltan (not the suites, those are everywhere) and there were very few available. Most were from 50+ years ago. The Golden Cockerel was similarly difficult to find but I managed to find a good mid 1980's complete opera from Svetlanov.
There should be more recordings of the operas!
e.g.
The Czar's/Tsar's Bride is one of his best, and a Melodiya recording from 50+
years ago with
Galina Vishnevskaya is still the best choice. But a CD version has been discontinued, as far as I know. Used ones are available!
An excerpt from that recording:
Listening to
Antar again. Obviously I owe this chance momentary (?) obsession to our
@Elgarian Redux with thanks. I cannot escape the conclusion that there's really no reason why this piece should not be fully as popular as
Sheherazade.
Make Antar Great Again!
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 27, 2025, 05:29:56 PMListening to Antar again. Obviously I owe this chance momentary (?) obsession to our @Elgarian Redux with thanks. I cannot escape the conclusion that there's really no reason why this piece should not be fully as popular as Sheherazade.
I also listened again today! Knowing that the second movement represented vengeance really enhanced my appreciation. (What a heavy-metal idea for a tune, after all.) It is a testament to the quality of the primary tune that, despite all of its repetitions, you never get tired of hearing it.
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 27, 2025, 05:29:56 PMI cannot escape the conclusion that there's really no reason why this piece should not be fully as popular as Sheherazade.
It certainly baffles me that it isn't, and I have two things to say about it:
1. I remember when I was 16, bowled over by
Scheherazade, wandering around the record shops in search of other pieces by R-K that might be similarly life-changing. In those days record shops had 'listening booths', and I remember listening to several R-K pieces -
Le Coq d'Or was one I sampled. But in my quest for 'more like
Scheherazade', I drew a blank. And I never saw an LP with
Antar on it.
2. When I started on my recent adventure, I was a little apprehensive that in the process of submitting
Antar to so many listenings over a relatively short period, I might kill it off for me. Well, I can say that once I got going there was never any fear of that happening. My admiration, indeed my love of the piece, only grew with acquaintance. I gave it every opportunity to make me tired of it - but in hindsight I can see there was never any risk of that, in fact.
Well, as
@ChamberNut says: we are in the process of Making Antar Great Again. (Yikes!)
Quote from: Brian on February 27, 2025, 05:57:46 PMIt is a testament to the quality of the primary tune that, despite all of its repetitions, you never get tired of hearing it.
Yes, that is remarkable. In some of its manifestations, it's still capable (after all the grotesque exposure of recent weeks) of making the hair prickle on the back of my neck.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on February 28, 2025, 10:34:08 AMYes, that is remarkable. In some of its manifestations, it's still capable (after all the grotesque exposure of recent weeks) of making the hair prickle on the back of my neck.
Behold the Power of Art!
In the recent extended discussion about "Antar" I don't think this version was mentioned.....
(https://cdn.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.573448.jpg)
the notes accompanying this disc are here;
https://www.naxos.com/MainSite/BlurbsReviews/?itemcode=8.573448&catnum=573448&filetype=AboutThisRecording&language=English
In essence Ravel adapted the original Rimsky for use as incidental music interpolating other works too as well as some original Ravel. This performance here is of therefore the incidental music version and includes quite long passages played under a spoken narration (in French). Perhaps not for every day or to replace the versions previously discussed but interesting to hear how Rimsky's musical influence lasted into the 20th Century and beyond Russia.......