Okay, 90% of my CD library is instrumental music. The only exceptions are Mozart's "Big 4" operas and Requiem plus a few Bach Cantatas and Beethoven's Missa. So I'm ready to get into a full performance of the Messiah and would like suggestions.
----------------------
EDIT:
Two previous threads (with the same name) on the old forum:
Handel's Messiah (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9840.0.html)
Handel's Messiah (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13420.0.html)
Que
This is not what you asked for, but a friend told me to listen to Beecham's. It's on CD.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515IQxhlcmL._AA240_.jpg)
We were at this performance and it was wonderful.
William Christie and Les Arts Florissants on Harmonia Mundi.
A good, solid HIP recording that manages to be neither doctrinaire or facile.
Go with the old Sir Colin Davis version on its Philips 24-96 mastering.
beecham...heheheh...an absolute riot! great stuff that will give the purist heart failure.
not ddd though.
dj
Quote from: david johnson on December 21, 2007, 12:55:39 AM
beecham...heheheh...an absolute riot! great stuff that will give the purist heart failure.
not ddd though.
dj
You're right. He did say it was wonderful but not for purists. It was good enough for me. I apologize; I should have said that in my original post.
Quote from: hornteacher on December 20, 2007, 03:52:54 PM
Okay, 90% of my CD library is instrumental music. The only exceptions are Mozart's "Big 4" operas and Requiem plus a few Bach Cantatas and Beethoven's Missa. So I'm ready to get into a full performance of the Messiah and would like suggestions.
Two requests:
1) DDD recording
2) Full performance (no highlight CDs)
Suggestions please.
Hornteacher, my first suggestion is to get a good recording of Brahms' German Requiem. :P
Back on topic, of the two Messiahs I have, I enjoy this one the most:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416DRSMWNAL._AA240_.jpg)
My favourite Messiah is Hogwood's. Superb soloists, ditto choir under Simon Preston, and an immense joy throughout the recording. It simply gets everything right, and sounds profoundly Händelian.
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/CDUCoverArt/Music/Large/superd_1191211.jpg)
Q
PS it's an (excellent) analogue recording from 1980.
Quote from: Que on December 21, 2007, 08:29:42 AM
My favourite Messiah is Hogwood's. Superb soloists, ditto choir under Simon Preston, and an immense joy throughout the recording. It simply gets everything right, and sounds profoundly Händelian.
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/CDUCoverArt/Music/Large/superd_1191211.jpg)
Q
PS it's an (excellent) analogue recording from 1980.
I join in, shall I ?..... ;D
Quote from: Que on December 21, 2007, 08:29:42 AM
My favourite Messiah is Hogwood's. Superb soloists, ditto choir under Simon Preston, and an immense joy throughout the recording. It simply gets everything right, and sounds profoundly Händelian.
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/CDUCoverArt/Music/Large/superd_1191211.jpg)
Q
PS it's an (excellent) analogue recording from 1980.
I third this recommendation! :) It's my favourite. My other versions are Pinnock, Koopman, Dunedin Consort and Christie. Probably Christie is the one I like the least (a bit boring in places), and it's a while since I heard Pinnock.
The Pinnock is BEAUTIFUL. DG really records with superb clarity here, and the English Concert shines in every aspect possible. In a time where the market was overflooded by recordings of Messiah, Pinnock induced precision and much insight into a piece much taken advantage of. I stil prefer it over the Hogwood, i don't exactly know why, if i have to say, probably the outstanding contributions of Anne Sofie.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XBG94N6VL._AA240_.jpg)
Howard
A public notice. ;) I still have several near and dear Handel recordings, but Messiah, Water Music, Royal Fireworks have been banished.
Quote from: Que on December 21, 2007, 08:29:42 AM
My favourite Messiah is Hogwood's. Superb soloists, ditto choir under Simon Preston, and an immense joy throughout the recording. It simply gets everything right, and sounds profoundly Händelian.
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/CDUCoverArt/Music/Large/superd_1191211.jpg)
Q
PS it's an (excellent) analogue recording from 1980.
My choice as well.
Andrew Parrott's Messiah is also very good. Superb singing on this one.
http://www.amazon.com/Handel-Messiah-George-Frideric/dp/B00005TNMM/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1198569592&sr=8-1
Quote from: hornteacher on December 20, 2007, 03:52:54 PM
Two requests:
1) DDD recording
2) Full performance (no highlight CDs)
Suggestions please.
The second request is reasonable, the first doesn't really make sense to me so I'll pretend you never said something that silly. Try Hogwood, he's the tops. I didn't at first think so, but now I do.
As a lover of choral music, I own over 95% of all the recorded Handel's oratorios. While I admire Bach St Matthew Passion, it certainly does not surpass Messiah IMO. Here are the versions of Messiah Oratorio I have on CD and other media as indicated.
London Symphony Orch/Davis* Philips
Acad. of Ancient Music/Hogwood* + L'oiseau Lyre
Stockholm Choir/Harnoncourt TELDEC
English Concert/Pinnock Archive
English Baroque Soloists/Gardiner* Philips
ASMIF/Marriner/Ameling London
English Chamber/Leppard* ERATO
16 Choir & Orch/Christophers Hyperion
ASMIF/Marriner/McNair + Philips
Concentus Musicus/Harnoncourt(SACD) Harmonia
London Symphony Orch/Davis(SACD) LSO Live
Barvarian Radio Symphony Orch/Davis Philips (open-reel)
ASMIF/Marriner/Ameling ARGO (LP ONLY)
English Chamber Orch/Mackerras Angel (LP ONLY)
LaGrand Ecurie & LaChambre du Roy/Malgoire CBS (LP ONLY West Germany)
ASMIF/Marriner/Ameling Barclay-Crocker (open-reel)
Royal Liverpool Philharmonic/Malcolm Sargent Seraphim (cassette)
* I have the LP-sets in addition to the CD-sets
+ I have DVD, VHS or both in addition to the CD-sets
My top choice is the version by Christopher Hogwood, though that has taken some time to develop.
My second choice is the version by Neville Marriner with the great Dutch soprano Elly Ameling.
My third choice is the version by John Eliot Gardiner.
Hopefully, American members will not get upset with me, as there are no American ensembles here because the English are vastly superior to anything we have stateside. Handel Messiah is in their DNA ...
Just realized I left out the following sets after I have taken a look at my record shelf.
English Chamber Orch/Mackerras Angel (LP ONLY)
LaGrand Ecurie & LaChambre du Roy/Malgoire CBS (LP ONLY West Germany)
I would love to hear what fellow choral music lovers have to say about this monumental work of the baroque era ...
A Friend of mine has 5 recordings and I thought he was mad, but you are something else ;D I also am a lover of choral but only have 3 recordings the best IMO is = English Concert/Pinnock on Archive I do have a tape with the Huddersfield choral society can't remember the other details :(
I don't see McCreesh on your list. It's really worth getting to know. It's right up there with Hogwood for me.
No Beecham?
I think Saul - or maybe Jephta- is my favorite Handel oratorio, though none of them compares to the best operas in my opinion. Messiah is far from my favorite among the oratorios. What are your favorites?
Quote from: Coopmv on February 09, 2009, 07:24:06 PM
I would love to hear what fellow choral music lovers have to say about this monumental work of the baroque era ...
It is a masterpiece of course, but i find it amusing that the English took such a liking for this particular composition when it is the
least English among all of Handel's English works.
Quote from: Wilhelm Richard on February 10, 2009, 03:19:00 AM
No Beecham?
I don't have any problem leaving Beecham out of the mix.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on February 10, 2009, 08:36:31 AM
It is a masterpiece of course, but i find it amusing that the English took such a liking for this particular composition when it is the least English among all of Handel's English works.
You may be right, but I always found Acis & Galatea the least English of the works in the English tongue. The masque elements are there all right, but no stately, grand choruses etc really makes this works stand out.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned William Christie and Les Arts Florissants's recording, with the soloists Sandrine Piau, Barbara Schlick, Andreas Scholl, Mark Padmore and Nathan Berg. It's probably one of the most satisfying recordings that I have, and that includes almost all of the above mentioned Messiahs except perhaps for Sargent and one of the Marriners.
If you are thinking of filling in your collection, then consider these as well: McCreesh/Gabrieli Consort (smaller forces, and extremely well done.)
Beecham's Messiah (LARGE almost Mahlerian forces; probably one of the greatest examples in the pre HIP performance style.)
John Butt/Dunedin Consort & Players - Linn records (Best HIP recording of the Dublin version in spectacular SACD sound quality.)
Ton Koopman's Messiah (Great, more solemn, HIP recording)
If you would like a superior American recording of the Messiah, then Robert Shaw's recording would be the one to go with. Done before HIP was on the map in America, it was revelatory when compared to the most popular Messiah stateside (also done with Mahlerian size forces) by Eugene Ormandy, the Philadelphia Orchestra, and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir (which still has plenty of fans).
Btw, William Christie is American although he works in France, so at least one Messiah has an American flavor. ;)
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on February 10, 2009, 08:36:31 AM
It is a masterpiece of course, but i find it amusing that the English took such a liking for this particular composition when it is the least English among all of Handel's English works.
Well, the book is written in English and it is taken from the Bible. For some reason familar English texts in great musical settings do tend to appeal to English speaking audiences.
For some reason by the 1740s, the English public was more interested in Oratorios than Opera Seria -- perhaps reflecting a bored society's need for novelty. The Messiah came along just at the right time to capture the English imagination (1741). It was so successful, and the genre so popular that by the time he wrote Hercules (~ 1745), he tried to blend oratorio with opera seria in a new "musical drama" format which proved to be very unpopular with English audiences. I don't think the quality of the music in Hercules was actually appreciated until the 20th century, but I may be wrong about that.
To contribute something valueless to this thread, I dare say that the OP would get along just dandily with a Mr Rod Corkin. ;D
FK
My three top picks for Messiah:
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000079K.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
1)Christie/Harmonia Mundi
(Sandrine Piau and Andreas Scholl, sounds like hybrid of period/modern with best of both, spacious warm sound, my reference Messiah)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000057DB.01._PE10_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
2)Pinnock/Archiv
(Hogwood period performance style more fully realized by Pinnock)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GYW.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
3)McCreesh/Archiv
(Similar in style to Pinnock and just as good, very slight edge for soloists to Pinnock)
The Hogwood/Lyre Messiah still holds up very well, however with the benefit of time and experience the Pinnock and McCreesh improve upon
and expand style pioneered by Hogwood
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 10, 2009, 11:07:15 AM
My three top picks for Messiah:
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000079K.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
1)Christie/Harmonia Mundi
(Sandrine Piau and Andreas Scholl, sounds like hybrid of period/modern with best of both, spacious warm sound, my reference Messiah)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000057DB.01._PE10_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
2)Pinnock/Archiv
(Hogwood period performance style more fully realized by Pinnock)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GYW.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
3)McCreesh/Archiv
(Similar in style to Pinnock and just as good, very slight edge for soloists to Pinnock)
The Hogwood/Lyre Messiah still holds up very well, however with the benefit of time and experience the Pinnock and McCreesh improve upon
and expand style pioneered by Hogwood
I believe Pinnock is in the original list, but I like your choices. :)
Quote from: Bulldog on February 10, 2009, 08:44:28 AM
I don't have any problem leaving Beecham out of the mix.
Your loss.
Quote from: Bunny on February 10, 2009, 09:34:22 AM
Btw, William Christie is American although he works in France, so at least one Messiah has an American flavor. ;)
And there's the version from Boston Baroque led by Martin Pearlman and recorded in Massachusetts.
Hogwood and Suzuki are my favorites. I've currently (over the past few months) been listening to Higginbottom/Academy of Ancient Music's recording. I think this might be the forum where people love to hate that recording, but I think it's interesting, and really it's excellent if you're not hung up on how you want the chorus to sound.
Quote from: Andante on February 09, 2009, 07:49:34 PM
A Friend of mine has 5 recordings and I thought he was mad, but you are something else ;D I also am a lover of choral but only have 3 recordings the best IMO is = English Concert/Pinnock on Archive I do have a tape with the Huddersfield choral society can't remember the other details :(
When it comes to classical works that are all time masterpieces, I tend to have many versions. I also have nine versions of St Matthew Passion and currently 16 Beethoven Symphonies Cycles (objective is to get 3-4 additional cycles by year end). I will probably try to get to about 5-6 versions of Complete Beethoven Sonatas.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 10, 2009, 04:33:59 PM
When it comes to classical works that are all time masterpieces, I tend to have many versions. I also have nine versions of St Matthew Passion and currently 16 Beethoven Symphonies Cycles (objective is to get 3-4 additional cycles by year end).
Although I have dozens of Beethoven syms. discs, only one cycle (Harnoncourt). That's probably because I tend to concentrate on nos. 5, 7 and 9.
I have this one.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xCKcrggcL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Haven't listened to it much. Maybe I should. ;D
Quote from: mn dave on February 10, 2009, 04:56:43 PM
I have this one.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xCKcrggcL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Haven't listened to it much. Maybe I should. ;D
Is this CD-set OOP? I have the LP-set but do not seem to have ever seen this CD-set.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 10, 2009, 05:02:38 PM
Is this CD-set OOP? I have the LP-set but do not seem to have ever seen this CD-set.
It may be. This was a download off Amazon.
Quote from: mn dave on February 10, 2009, 05:05:04 PM
It may be. This was a download off Amazon.
The Mackerras's set is one of the older sets out there and was recorded in the 1960's.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 10, 2009, 05:31:17 PM
The Mackerras's set is one of the older sets out there and was recorded in the 1960's.
How do you think it holds up vs. the competition? It came highly recommended.
Quote from: mn dave on February 10, 2009, 05:33:46 PM
How do you think it holds up vs. the competition? It came highly recommended.
It was quite competitive with the 1967 recording by Colin Davis and the LSO and with the version by Raymond Leppard, also with the English Chamber Orchestra. I believe Harnoncourt also released a version in the 1960's, which I am not familiar with. These three versions share a few common characteristics: 1) They were all performed on modern instruments. 2) Conductor interpretations were also quite similar. I think the version by Christopher Hogwood really marked a new era in the interpretation and the performance of this work, as people began to associate this work increasingly with period instruments. It took my ears some getting used to at first but I have never looked back. For the past 20 years or so, I have come to expect baroque music to be performed on period instruments. Occasionally, I find modern instrument performance to be excellent as well, as is the case with the Bach Brandenburg Concertos by the ASMIF with Marriner and that all-star cast of Jean Pierre Rampal, Henryk Szeryng, Heinz Holliger and Michala Petri. I also find the 1976 Messiah by Marriner and the ASMIF with Elly Ameling and Anna Reynolds excellent, though the set was also performed on modern instruments. I got that LP-set on Argo in the early 80's but as that recording had not yet been released on CD and while the SQ on Argo was good, the LP's were clearly not as quiet as I would like. I leaped at the opportunity to get the recording on the Barclay-Crocker open-reels. To this day, the 1976 Messiah by Marriner is the only version I have in 3 different audio media - LP, CD and open-reel.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 10, 2009, 05:59:37 PM
It was quite competitive with the 1967 recording by Colin Davis and the LSO and with the version by Raymond Leppard, also with the English Chamber Orchestra. I believe Harnoncourt also released a version in the 1960's, which I am not familiar with. These three versions share a few common characteristics: 1) They were all performed on modern instruments. 2) Conductor interpretations were also quite similar. I think the version by Christopher Hogwood really marked a new era in the interpretation and the performance of this work, as people began to associate this work increasingly with period instruments. It took my ears some getting used to at first but I have never looked back. For the past 20 years or so, I have come to expect baroque music to be performed on period instruments. Occasionally, I find modern instrument performance to be excellent as well, as is the case with the Bach Brandenburg Concertos by the ASMIF with Marriner and that all-star cast of Jean Pierre Rampal, Henryk Szeryng, Heinz Holliger and Michala Petri. I also find the 1976 Messiah by Marriner and the ASMIF with Elly Ameling and Anna Reynolds excellent, though the set was also performed on modern instruments. I got that LP-set on Argo in the early 80's but as that recording had not yet been released on CD and while the SQ on Argo was good, the LP's were clearly not as quiet as I would like. I leaped at the opportunity to get the recording on the Barclay-Crocker open-reels. To this day, the 1976 Messiah by Marriner is the only version I have in 3 different audio media - LP, CD and open-reel.
Thank you for the reply. Very informative. Perhaps one day I'll spring for the Hogwood.
Quote from: mn dave on February 10, 2009, 06:04:51 PM
Thank you for the reply. Very informative. Perhaps one day I'll spring for the Hogwood.
Here are my 1976 Messiah by ASMIF and Marriner in older and much cooler media ...
Or that. ;D
Quote from: mn dave on February 10, 2009, 06:22:56 PM
Or that. ;D
I have been having major problems uploading photos, not sure why?
Quote from: Coopmv on February 10, 2009, 06:25:16 PM
I have been having major problems uploading photos, not sure why?
It turned out the JPEG file was too large. The problem has been corrected ...
Quote from: Coopmv on February 10, 2009, 04:33:59 PM
When it comes to classical works that are all time masterpieces, I tend to have many versions. I also have nine versions of St Matthew Passion and currently 16 Beethoven Symphonies Cycles (objective is to get 3-4 additional cycles by year end). I will probably try to get to about 5-6 versions of Complete Beethoven Sonatas.
I have a feeling that I am going to regret asking this but
why so many Beethoven cycles?? how often do you have comparison listening between them, If you are a Composer I can see the sense or if you are studying Beethoven or such for a degree, but for a mere mortal [such as me] it seems a bit of overkill, I do have 3/4 of some various recordings, please I am not being obnoxious simply curious :)
Quote from: Andante on February 10, 2009, 07:08:29 PM
I have a feeling that I am going to regret asking this but why so many Beethoven cycles?? how often do you have comparison listening between them, If you are a Composer I can see the sense or if you are studying Beethoven or such for a degree, but for a mere mortal [such as me] it seems a bit of overkill, I do have 3/4 of some various recordings, please I am not being obnoxious simply curious :)
My desire of not to be beholdened to any classical FM station has always been a goal. The fact that I have on average 7-8 versions of most classical masterpieces allows me to play just the piece I want at any given time, depending on my mood of the moment. How many complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas does George have now? I think he has over 100 CD's by Sviatoslav Richter alone. I surmise he and I probably share similar answer to your question ...
I've merged two threads and put links to two previous Messiah threads on the old forum in the opening post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5034.msg120974.html#msg120974), for those interested.
Q
Quote from: Andante on February 10, 2009, 07:08:29 PM
I have a feeling that I am going to regret asking this but why so many Beethoven cycles?? how often do you have comparison listening between them, If you are a Composer I can see the sense or if you are studying Beethoven or such for a degree, but for a mere mortal [such as me] it seems a bit of overkill, I do have 3/4 of some various recordings, please I am not being obnoxious simply curious :)
I have even more than 16. They are my addiction. Comparison listening? Only at the beginning. Then I hone in on the particular symphonies I prefer from a cycle for a while -- listening to them over and over. Then a newer cycle becomes available and I'm off to the marketplace for the latest fix.
Quote from: Bunny on February 11, 2009, 08:01:37 AM
I have even more than 16. They are my addiction. Comparison listening? Only at the beginning. Then I hone in on the particular symphonies I prefer from a cycle for a while -- listening to them over and over. Then a newer cycle becomes available and I'm off to the marketplace for the latest fix.
Well I hope its not catching I just have not the room for that amount of CDs ;D I have approx 1000 in my collection [ a drop in the ocean compared to what you guys must have] and my Darling Wife says if I want more I have to build another room onto the house, :(
Quote from: Andante on February 11, 2009, 10:31:32 AM
Well I hope its not catching...
RUN AWAY while you still can!!! :o
Quote from: Bunny on February 11, 2009, 08:01:37 AM
I have even more than 16. They are my addiction. Comparison listening? Only at the beginning. Then I hone in on the particular symphonies I prefer from a cycle for a while -- listening to them over and over. Then a newer cycle becomes available and I'm off to the marketplace for the latest fix.
I will probably stop my Beethoven Symphonies cycles right at 20, as I have a few additional cycles that I feel I should have. My latest acquisition being the one by Harnoncourt with the European Chamber Orchestra that came in that large WarnerMusic box set, which is still in cellophane since I have too many other new CD's to listen to. Anyway, enough diversion to Beethoven, but you have given the reason why people like us have so many versions of a particular masterpiece. My understanding is FK has close to 20 Beethoven cycles as well.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 11, 2009, 04:36:59 PM
I will probably stop my Beethoven Symphonies cycles right at 20, as I have a few additional cycles that I feel I should have. My latest acquisition being the one by Harnoncourt with the European Chamber Orchestra that came in that large WarnerMusic box set, which is still in cellophane since I have too many other new CD's to listen to. Anyway, enough diversion to Beethoven, but you have given the reason why people like us have so many versions of a particular masterpiece. My understanding is FK has close to 20 Beethoven cycles as well.
Been there; said that.
There is only one Messiah, Pinnock's.
Anybody old-school enough to have an opinion on Herman Scherchen's? I have and enjoy his Water Music and Bach Mass in B Minor, so I'm thinking he may be a good fit...
Quote from: jwinter on February 12, 2009, 04:02:50 PM
Anybody old-school enough to have an opinion on Herman Scherchen's? I have and enjoy his Water Music and Bach Mass in B Minor, so I'm thinking he may be a good fit...
I have Malcolm Sargent on both LP and cassette. Generally, the performance is too old-fashioned for me. That Victorian approach of 500-voice choir just does not sound right ...
I know some consider Pinnock's work with this definitive, but I was less than impressed. The soloists seem great, save the bass (Tomlinson) who sounds like he's singing with cotton balls in his mouth and/or whilst inebriated. I thought it really lacked drama in the more exciting passages and seemed distant and disconnected from the work. The same goes for Suzuki's; technically flawless, but lacking an emotional attachment. One well-rounded performance I'm quite fond of is the live recording by Cleobury with the Brandenburg Consort and the Choir of King's College Cambridge...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YNGV8JYML._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Handel-Messiah/dp/B000AYYTHG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1232416919&sr=1-1)
Sharp and vivacious playing from the Consort and great work from the chorus. Alastair Miles is a commanding bass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYTQ6gpcuYA). I like the feel of live recordings too and this one's aided by the great acoustics of the King's College Chapel. On a technical level this can't match Pinnock, McCreesh, or Suzuki, but there's still something very endearing about it.
I'm conflicted about this recording...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XT16QN5SL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Handel-Messiah-R%C3%B6schmann-Gritton-McCreesh/dp/B000001GYW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1232416981&sr=1-1)
As far as wringing drama from the piece McCreesh does an exemplary job, but his approach during certain passages seems rather queer and... I want to say... distorted.
Anyhow, that's my two cents worth! ;D
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on February 14, 2009, 12:24:24 AM
I know some consider Pinnock's work with this definitive, but I was less than impressed. The soloists seem great, save the bass (Tomlinson) who sounds like he's singing with cotton balls in his mouth and/or whilst inebriated. I thought it really lacked drama in the more exciting passages and seemed distant and disconnected from the work. The same goes for Suzuki's; technically flawless, but lacking an emotional attachment. One well-rounded performance I'm quite fond of is the live recording by Cleobury with the Brandenburg Consort and the Choir of King's College Cambridge...
I have the version by Trevor Pinnock as well. It pales in comparison with the versions by Christopher Hogwood (the best in my opinion) and John Eliot Gardiner. I have found Trevor Pinnock and his English Concerts excel in instrumental works but they are clearly not as polished when it comes to choral/vocal works. Of the three English period instrument practitioners, I find Pinnock the best for instrumental works while Hogwood is the best for Handel's oratorios. On the other hand, JS Bach's choral works appear to be John Eliot Gardiner's forte.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 07:00:06 AM
I have the version by Trevor Pinnock as well. It pales in comparison with the versions by Christopher Hogwood (the best in my opinion) and John Eliot Gardiner. I have found Trevor Pinnock and his English Concerts excel in instrumental works but they are clearly not as polished when it comes to choral/vocal works. Of the three English period instrument practitioners, I find Pinnock the best for instrumental works while Hogwood is the best for Handel's oratorios. On the other hand, JS Bach's choral works appear to be John Eliot Gardiner's forte.
Absolutely. I noticed Gardiner's propensity for Bach as well. I forgot about Hogwood's work here, though... It is, indeed, phenomenal, I should probably listen to it again sometime soon. The only complaint I have is the soloists, but other than that it's magnificent.
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on February 14, 2009, 08:19:04 AM
Absolutely. I noticed Gardiner's propensity for Bach as well. I forgot about Hogwood's work here, though... It is, indeed, phenomenal, I should probably listen to it again sometime soon. The only complaint I have is the soloists, but other than that it's magnificent.
What don't you like about the Soloists in Hogwood's version? I think they are fabulous in general. How can anyone dislike Emma Kirkby? Judith Nelson is one of the best baroque soloists the US has ever produced and Carolyn Watkinson is excellent as well. I also do not have any major quibble with the male soloists. David Thomas is excellent as the bass while I am somewhat less impressed with the tenor but that is life - nothing is 100%.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 08:38:36 AM
What don't you like about the Soloists in Hogwood's version? I think they are fabulous in general. How can anyone dislike Emma Kirkby? Judith Nelson is one of the best baroque soloists the US has ever produced and Carolyn Watkinson is excellent as well. I also do not have any major quibble with the male soloists. David Thomas is excellent as the bass while I am somewhat less impressed with the tenor but that is life - nothing is 100%.
We'll call it a gentleman's disagreement, then.
Selections from Hogwood's Messiah
http://www.mediafire.com/?mimmfwymznj
http://www.mediafire.com/?kuygijmjgzd
Selections from Marriner's 1976 Messiah
http://www.mediafire.com/?nrmxwrn5jwn
http://www.mediafire.com/?blmz4kniewd
Just browsed through this thread, but maybe have missed it.
Anyway: what are the thoughts here on René Jacob's Messiah? :) :)
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881817863.jpg)
Q
And has anybody here heard Frieder Bernius' quite recent Messiah? I generally like this conductor (I've just greatly enjoyed his Bach Christmas Oratorio :)), and I also have a sweet spot for Carolyn Sampson.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4009350832190.jpg)
Quote from: Que on December 22, 2009, 11:49:04 PM
Just browsed through this thread, but maybe have missed it.
Anyway: what are the thoughts here on René Jacob's Messiah? :) :)
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881817863.jpg)
Q
Q, Go with the English when it is Handel Messiah but go with the German or Dutch when it is Bach St Matthew Passion ...
;D
Quote from: jwinter on February 12, 2009, 04:02:50 PM
Anybody old-school enough to have an opinion on Herman Scherchen's? I have and enjoy his Water Music and Bach Mass in B Minor, so I'm thinking he may be a good fit...
Nearly a year late, but I have it. It's the first one I reach for.
Well... this is a most appropriate day (Christmas Eve) for me to make my very first post, which is concerning the great Handel's greatest work, The Messiah!
One of my favorite recordings of this work (and I have many) is Sir Adrian Boult's 1961 London/Decca account with Sutherland, and the LSO. However, the last time I checked the complete version was still not available on CD.
Some of these old school Messiah performances tend to be too lethargic and heavy, and this one is certainly no "period instrument" performance, but is still quite listenable, and a nice change of pace from the plethora of authentic period performances available today.
This version is also interesting in that it uses the solo bass voice in some parts usually reserved for the female alto, and the bass soloist (David Ward) gives a wonderful performance.
I recently picked this up on two still sealed double cassette tapes for .50 cents (lucky me). The sound quality was amazing for a cassette! It had that overall rich, warm, airy sound that these old London recordings were known for. Strings had that crisp sheen, and both solo and choral voices were clear and understandable.
It sounded much better than the old, worn out original LP pressings I used to have. So good in fact, that I almost wouldn't care if the complete version was never released on CD.
I said almost... :D
Quote from: Cristofori on December 24, 2009, 07:13:58 PM
[....]
One of my favorite recordings of this work (and I have many) is Sir Adrian Boult's 1961 London/Decca account with Sutherland, and the LSO. However, the last time I checked the complete version was still not available on CD.
Some of these old school Messiah performances tend to be too lethargic and heavy, and this one is certainly no "period instrument" performance, but is still quite listenable, and a nice change of pace from the plethora of authentic period performances available today.
[....]
Ha! One of my first classical LP's. Highlights only though.
I don't really know which one (of the few I have) is my favourite. But I've always liked Colin Davis (first recording), Pinnock, Christie, Hogwood and Ton Koopman. The latter was a 3cd-issue though, with very strange 'dividing policy'. Dunno if it's still available.
Koopman certainly has a touch for Händel IMO, and his soloists are in good shape. The late Marjanne Kweksilber (mainly known for her contributions to modern classical music) is performing very well, as is James Bowman, whose voice I do not always admire. But in this one he's very convincing.
I always loved tenor Paul Elliott's voice in this kind of music. Bass Gregory Reinhart has a good voice, too. Choir (The Sixteen) and Koopman's orchestra are a bonus to this bright performance!
Quote from: Cristofori on December 24, 2009, 07:13:58 PM
It sounded much better than the old, worn out original LP pressings I used to have. So good in fact, that I almost wouldn't care if the complete version was never released on CD.
I said almost... :D
It's available on CD here:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=5023&name_role1=1&name_id2=56164&name_role2=3&bcorder=31&comp_id=1257
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b4/77/d13881b0c8a0f9915c89b110.L._AA240_.jpg)
Or used (and more expensive) here:
http://www.amazon.com/Messiah-Joan-Sutherland/dp/B00000E4VD/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1261736483&sr=1-6
Quote from: rubio on December 25, 2009, 01:23:41 AM
It's available on CD here:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=5023&name_role1=1&name_id2=56164&name_role2=3&bcorder=31&comp_id=1257
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b4/77/d13881b0c8a0f9915c89b110.L._AA240_.jpg)
Or used (and more expensive) here:
http://www.amazon.com/Messiah-Joan-Sutherland/dp/B00000E4VD/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1261736483&sr=1-6
I only have the highlight on LP. What Arkiv has to offer is the CDR's it made inhouse under license from Decca. Unless Decca decides to re-issue this, it is OOP as far as I am concerned. I was a onetime customer at Arkiv but will not buy any CDR's.
Quote from: Coopmv on December 25, 2009, 05:44:44 AM
I only have the highlight on LP. What Arkiv has to offer is the CDR's it made inhouse under license from Decca. Unless Decca decides to re-issue this, it is OOP as far as I am concerned. I was a onetime customer at Arkiv but will not buy any CDR's.
Ditto on the CDRs.
Decca did reissue this, but only as a highlights CD on their budget "Eloquence" series. I've thought of getting it, but I'll stick to my guns and wait for a complete version.
Quote from: Cristofori on December 25, 2009, 08:37:06 AM
Ditto on the CDRs.
Decca did reissue this, but only as a highlights CD on their budget "Eloquence" series. I've thought of getting it, but I'll stick to my guns and wait for a complete version.
Highlights of any classical works are for beginners, not serious classical music lovers ...
Quote from: Cristofori on December 25, 2009, 08:46:02 AM
Thanks for the info rubio.
I was aware of Arkivmusic's CDR's, but I didn't know they had done this one. However, I don't consider these to be legitimate copies.
Until this gets a proper reissue, or until I can find near mint used LP or oop CD copies at a decent price, I'll stick with my very good sounding .50 cent cassette tapes. ;D
It may be nostalgia more than anything else. The highlight on this LP was probably the first Messiah work I ever bought. But Joan Sutherland and Grace Bumbry are hardly the ideal soloists for Messiah IMO after having owned many excellent recordings that have been made after this ...
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 25, 2009, 08:50:34 AM
These ARE legitimate copies. ArkivMusic has the full authorization from all record companies who participate.
But that's just it: sometimes copies of rare material can't be found or are sold at inflated prices on the aftermarket. Arkiv's service is a boon for the hardcore classical collector.
I agree; it's a great service. However, some folks think there's something phoney or corrupt about it. I've been acquiring their CDR's for a few years now and never had a problem.
However, I'm a firm proponent of baroque orchestral music on period instruments, so that Decca set holds no interest for me.
Quote from: rubio on December 23, 2009, 02:34:59 AM
And has anybody here heard Frieder Bernius' quite recent Messiah? I generally like this conductor (I've just greatly enjoyed his Bach Christmas Oratorio :)), and I also have a sweet spot for Carolyn Sampson.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4009350832190.jpg)
I also really like Bernius, but he often records for boutique labels that are very expensive and rather hard to find
Would love to pick up this Messiah but not at any price ::)
Quote from: Que on December 22, 2009, 11:49:04 PM
Just browsed through this thread, but maybe have missed it.
Anyway: what are the thoughts here on René Jacob's Messiah? :) :)
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881817863.jpg)
I really like the Jacobs (love his Mozart operas) version which has very nice box packaging (has trapdoor CD storage area) and great modern sound, but performance wise not quite in the elite catagory for me, competion for the best is great and bar is set extremely high. None of the soloist are truely outstanding or memorable compared to Christie or Pinnock groups for instance.......but regardless the overall result is impressive and I will never be parting with my Jacobs set :)
BTW one unusual feature for Jacobs.......he does not use two sopranos, but instead uses soprano, alto (counter tenor, tenor, bass)
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 25, 2009, 03:04:40 PM
I really like the Jacobs (love his Mozart operas) version which has very nice box packaging (has trapdoor CD storage area) and great modern sound, but performance wise not quite in the elite catagory for me, competion for the best is great and bar is set extremely high. None of the soloist are truely outstanding or memorable compared to Christie or Pinnock groups for instance.......but regardless the overall result is impressive and I will never be parting with my Jacobs set :)
Yes, Jacobs is top-drawer whether it's Mozart, Haydn or Bach. I do love that Messiah cover - there's nothing like being eye-balled.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31RH894NFZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Listened to Coop's beloved Hogwood Messiah again today.............a magical performance that can "almost" still lay claim to best performance out there, an essential Messiah for collectors without question. A unique touch is the all boy Oxford choir which works well for Hogwood, the two sopranos are very strong especially Emma Kirkby who absolutely sparkles with her animated delivery style......too bad Judith Nelson sings the majority of soprano parts so we hear less of Kirkby
The Hogwood/AAM string tone is instantly recognizeable and one of the trademarks of this Messiah, what a collection of talent the AAM was at that time! In retrospect I would make some tweak improvements, the contralto
Watkinson I feel is the weakest link and has a somewhat flat average delivery style. If I could substitiute Andreas Scholl from the Christie version paired with the Oxford boys choir and have Kirkby be lead soprano we would have pure magic
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 25, 2009, 05:32:12 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31RH894NFZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Listened to Coop's beloved Hogwood Messiah again today.............a magical performance that can "almost" still lay claim to best performance out there, an essential Messiah for collectors without question. A unique touch is the all boy Oxford choir which works well for Hogwood, the two sopranos are very strong especially Emma Kirkby who absolutely sparkles with her animated delivery style......too bad Judith Nelson sings the majority of soprano parts so we hear less of Kirkby
The Hogwood/AAM string tone is instantly recognizeable and one of the trademarks of this Messiah, what a collection of talent the AAM was at that time! In retrospect I would make some tweak improvements, the contralto
Watkinson I feel is the weakest link and has a somewhat flat average delivery style. If I could substitiute Andreas Scholl from the Christie version paired with the Oxford boys choir and have Kirkby be lead soprano we would have pure magic
You may want to consider getting the DVD, which was recorded a few years after the original recordings were made at the same venue (Westminster Abbey). Seeing is believing and you can actually get a more personal feel for the acoustics of the Westminster Abbey. The DVD was very well shot IMO and the cast remained the same ...
Quote from: Coopmv on December 25, 2009, 06:24:45 PM
You may want to consider getting the DVD, which was recorded a few years after the original recordings were made at the same venue (Westminster Abbey). Seeing is believing and you can actually get a more personal feel for the acoustics of the Westminster Abbey. The DVD was very well shot IMO and the cast remained the same ...
I have that DVD, on Kultur D2269. I found the performance scarcely different from the audio recording, so much so that I wonder if it wasn't one and the same. It may have only been released two years later on BBC video. I will have to compare the two more extensively.
Nevertheless, I agree with you! Both the audio and video versions are must haves for Messiah fans!
Quote from: Cristofori on December 25, 2009, 06:58:53 PM
I have that DVD, on Kultur D2269. I found the performance scarcely different from the audio recording, so much so that I wonder if it wasn't one and the same. It may have only been released two years later on BBC video. I will have to compare the two more extensively.
Nevertheless, I agree with you! Both the audio and video versions are must haves for Messiah fans!
The DVD was definitely shot at a later date. BTW, the audio Messiah was an original analog recording that was first released on LP, a 3-LP set which I own as well. The recording was digitally remastered later.
Quote from: Coopmv on December 25, 2009, 07:02:09 PM
The DVD was definitely shot at a later date. BTW, the audio Messiah was an original analog recording that was first released on LP, a 3-LP set which I own as well. The recording was digitally remastered later.
OK, I'm inclined to believe you. The recording dates on my CD and LP copies is 1980. The recording date on the DVD is 1982.
It's just strange that they used exactly the same soloists, the same choir, the same venue, etc., and the performance is remarkably similar.
Regardless, they are both a must have for Handel Messiah fans!
Quote from: Cristofori on December 25, 2009, 07:12:53 PM
OK, I'm inclined to believe you. The recording dates on my CD and LP copies is 1980. The recording date on the DVD is 1982.
It's just strange that they used exactly the same soloists, the same choir, the same venue, etc., and the performance is remarkably similar.
Regardless, they are both a must have for Handel Messiah fans!
I hear you. As much as I want to keep an open mind about the performance of some timeless masterpieces like Handel Messiah, I rarely listen/collect Handel's Messiah performed by non-English ensembles with Harnoncourt being an exception. Conversely, I also rarely bother with Bach choral masterpieces such as St Matthew Passion that was performed by English ensemble (the singing part often do not sound quite right).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ox3We5lbL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kih6MTLLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
A couple of the newer Messiahs have come into my posession, listening sessions underway.
-Steve Layton/Hyperion
-John Butt/Linn Records
I think I have now either sold or given away any version before Hogwood AAM, all my favorites succeed it.
The clarified orchestral tones and purity of vocals joined with excellent modern sound is so addictive there is no going back to the old standards......
John Butt's version was discussed here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9840.msg370471.html#msg370471
and also here, but it's all fluff and no meat:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2731.msg70140.html
Quote from: DarkAngel on January 07, 2010, 12:31:17 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ox3We5lbL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kih6MTLLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZD3ZPVARL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I added a few Messiahs, all sound very good and will be part of permanent collection, listening sessions underway.
-Steve Layton/Hyperion
-John Butt/Linn Records
-Pearlman/Telarc
I think I have now either sold or given away any version before Hogwood AAM, all my favorites succeed it.
The clarified HIP orchestral tones and purity of vocals joined with excellent modern sound is so addictive there is no going back to the old standards......
Just picked up a real gem, the
Pearlman with Boston Baroque is a real positive surprise.......this is a top contender that can stand next to the very best versions, great sound by Telarc adds to the appeal, very cheap new & used at Amazon :)
Quote from: DarkAngel on January 09, 2010, 04:01:57 AM
Just picked up a real gem, the Pearlman with Boston Baroque is a real positive surprise.......this is a top contender that can stand next to the very best versions, great sound by Telarc adds to the appeal, very cheap new & used at Amazon :)
I guess we all have different tastes. I never have a high opinion of the Boston Baroque/Pearlman. I was never impressed with what I heard over some of the local classical FM stations over the years. I much prefer listening to the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra performing baroque works on modern instruments than listening to what I consider a second rate period instrument ensemble.
Quote from: Coopmv on January 09, 2010, 05:05:20 AM
I guess we all have different tastes. I never have a high opinion of the Boston Baroque/Pearlman. I was never impressed with what I heard over some of the local classical FM stations over the years. I much prefer listening to the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra performing baroque works on modern instruments than listening to what I consider a second rate period instrument ensemble.
Coop I have many Pearlman Baroque staples, and while being very good I have never thought any of them to enter the elite catagory...........till I heard this Messiah. Sumptuos fleet HIP orchestral sound, great soloists with clear vibrato free vocals skillfully ornamented, and the chorals have see through transparancey allowing all the intricate polyphony to emerge, one of the very best Messiahs available for me, a revelation of sorts.
My previous top three may have to be altered in light of these 3 new acquisitions
-Christie/HM
-Pinnock/Archiv
-McCreesh/Archiv
Quote from: DarkAngel on January 09, 2010, 04:01:57 AM
Just picked up a real gem, the Pearlman with Boston Baroque is a real positive surprise.......this is a top contender that can stand next to the very best versions, great sound by Telarc adds to the appeal, very cheap new & used at Amazon :)
I also consider the Pearlman Messiah one of the best. Actually, you're the only other person I know who feels the same way. Excellent!!! As far as I'm concerned, the Pearlman is more evidence that wonderful baroque recordings can come from any country in the world.
Quote from: Bulldog on January 09, 2010, 08:41:26 AM
I also consider the Pearlman Messiah one of the best. Actually, you're the only other person I know who feels the same way. Excellent!!! As far as I'm concerned, the Pearlman is more evidence that wonderful baroque recordings can come from any country in the world.
I think it would appeal to a fairly broad spectrum of listener who give it a real chance, a really beautiful sounding version that is not too lean in texture as some Hip versions may sound to general public :)
It had escaped my watchful eye for very long time, glad I gave it a chance
DA, This is a very enjoyable set with very refreshing performance and I was pleasantly surprised. The soprano singing has a certain purity and naturalness to it compared with other sopranos who have often overdone in the coloratura department.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kih6MTLLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Coopmv on February 06, 2010, 06:51:17 PM
DA, This is a very enjoyable set with very refreshing performance and I was pleasantly surprised. The soprano singing has a certain purity and naturalness to it compared with other sopranos who have often overdone in the coloratura department.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kih6MTLLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
That recording is amazing, I really mean it.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 06, 2010, 06:51:17 PM
DA, This is a very enjoyable set with very refreshing performance and I was pleasantly surprised. The soprano singing has a certain purity and naturalness to it compared with other sopranos who have often overdone in the coloratura department.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kih6MTLLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I have that and it is quite fine. However, it's not the Messiah we are used to hearing but the earlier "Dublin" version which has slightly different music and orchestrations than in the later version as well as calling for smaller forces. Still, it's very well sung and played and the sound quality is excellent. Btw, for the echt audiophiles among us, Linn sells "studio master" quality (24bit 44.1kHz 1,775.0MB) downloads in FLAC or WMA formats as well as the SACD/hybrids and other lesser quality download formats.
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 06, 2010, 08:33:29 PM
That recording is amazing, I really mean it.
There is also something quite unusual about this recording. That it was performed by an up and coming ensemble and what appeared to be a much more low-budget production than the typical Messiah made by the major labels. In fact, soprano Susan Hamilton happened to be a co-founder of the Dunedin Consort & Players according to the Wiki page I looked up.
Quote from: Bunny on February 06, 2010, 08:35:59 PM
I have that and it is quite fine. However, it's not the Messiah we are used to hearing but the earlier "Dublin" version which has slightly different music and orchestrations than in the later version as well as calling for smaller forces. Still, it's very well sung and played and the sound quality is excellent. Btw, for the echt audiophiles among us, Linn sells "studio master" quality (24bit 44.1kHz 1,775.0MB) downloads in FLAC or WMA formats as well as the SACD/hybrids and other lesser quality download formats.
What I found unusual about this recording is there are two more tracks after the Amen Chorus. Of the over 20 versions of Handel Messiah I have, this is the only version with such arrangement.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 06, 2010, 08:39:11 PM
There is also something quite unusual about this recording. That it was performed by an up and coming ensemble and what appeared to be a much more low-budget production than the typical Messiah made by the major labels. In fact, soprano Susan Hamilton happened to be a co-founder of the Dunedin Consort & Players according to the Wiki page I looked up.
Yes, but I don't think it was "low budget" in terms of performance. The major difference is that they use the Dublin version (1742) rather than the later version preferred by Händel (1754) which was refined and adapted for greater musical forces. It is more intimate than the traditional version, but I think that it also lacks some of the grandeur I love about the oratorio.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 06, 2010, 08:41:29 PM
What I found unusual about this recording is there are two more tracks after the Amen Chorus. Of the over 20 versions of Handel Messiah I have, this is the only version with such arrangement.
Yes, that's one of the differences between the 1754 and 1742 versions.
Another recording which is one of my favorites is that done in 1983 by Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra and The Sixteen. I believe that it's been rereleased a number of times, so try and find a less expensive new version as opposed to the used editions usually found at Amazon. You can find it at Presto Classical for about $12.00 which makes it a real bargain.
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/78/1c/e4ae1363ada04cf7aaf30110.L.jpg) New Cover: (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692826.jpg)
Quote from: Bunny on February 06, 2010, 09:00:13 PM
Yes, but I don't think it was "low budget" in terms of performance. The major difference is that they use the Dublin version (1742) rather than the later version preferred by Händel (1754) which was refined and adapted for greater musical forces. It is more intimate than the traditional version, but I think that it also lacks some of the grandeur I love about the oratorio.
Yes, that's one of the differences between the 1754 and 1742 versions.
Another recording which is one of my favorites is that done in 1983 by Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra and The Sixteen. I believe that it's been rereleased a number of times, so try and find a less expensive new version as opposed to the used editions usually found at Amazon. You can find it at Presto Classical for about $12.00 which makes it a real bargain.
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/78/1c/e4ae1363ada04cf7aaf30110.L.jpg) New Cover: (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692826.jpg)
I used the term low-budget to describe the production costs and not the performance, as I am convinced this recording cost a bit less to produce than most other versions. I actually have the version by the Sixteen and Harry Christopher on Hyperion, which I have not listened to in a number of years. I do not have the version by Koopman, though I have two versions by Nikolaus Harnoncourt, which are the only non-British ensembles performing this work in my collection ...
Quote from: Coopmv on February 06, 2010, 06:51:17 PM
DA, This is a very enjoyable set with very refreshing performance and I was pleasantly surprised. The soprano singing has a certain purity and naturalness to it compared with other sopranos who have often overdone in the coloratura department.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kih6MTLLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
OK since we all agree the
Butt/Linn Records is a great version of Messiah has anyone taken the next logical step and purchased the same groups Bach St Matthew Passion? (I confess to taking the plunge)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41UeIwvpANL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Bunny on February 06, 2010, 09:00:13 PM
Another recording which is one of my favorites is that done in 1983 by Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra and The Sixteen. I believe that it's been rereleased a number of times, so try and find a less expensive new version as opposed to the used editions usually found at Amazon. You can find it at Presto Classical for about $12.00 which makes it a real bargain.
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/78/1c/e4ae1363ada04cf7aaf30110.L.jpg) New Cover: (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692826.jpg)
Bunny if only I had known this several days ago when I placed small order with MDT (UK) that included the new Andreas Staier Goldberg Variations it would have been in the buy basket also! :)
Quote from: Coopmv on February 06, 2010, 06:51:17 PM
DA, This is a very enjoyable set with very refreshing performance and I was pleasantly surprised. The soprano singing has a certain purity and naturalness to it compared with other sopranos who have often overdone in the coloratura department.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kih6MTLLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Yay, finally someone else who likes Susan Hamilton. :) Everyone I've met really dislikes her voice. :-\ I like her kind of unrefined naturalness and that she sings with a lovely freedom, if that makes sense. There was a great moment in the Dunedin Consort's
Actus Tragicus a couple of years ago where her 'Ja, komm, Herr Jesu' pierced through and simply soared joyously above the more uncompromising 'Es ist der alte Bund' - it was glorious. :)
Quote from: Coopmv on February 07, 2010, 03:02:26 AM
I used the term low-budget to describe the production costs and not the performance, as I am convinced this recording cost a bit less to produce than most other versions.
OVPP = save on choir fee :D
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 07, 2010, 07:54:46 AM
OK since we all agree the Butt/Linn Records is a great version of Messiah has anyone taken the next logical step and purchased the same groups Bach St Matthew Passion? (I confess to taking the plunge)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41UeIwvpANL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I've been considering that St. Matthew's, but I've read some very mixed things about it. ClassicsToday is tepid; C/T France hates it, no surprise as they also hated the Dubin Messiah from the same forces. Gramophone's review qualifies the positives and notes the negatives so relentlessly that I begin to think the reviewer couldn't make up his mind, or hated it but didn't want to offend. Even the more enthusiastic reviews describe it as an "alternative" rather than a reference. I'll be very interested in what you think of it!
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 07, 2010, 07:54:46 AM
OK since we all agree the Butt/Linn Records is a great version of Messiah has anyone taken the next logical step and purchased the same groups Bach St Matthew Passion? (I confess to taking the plunge)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41UeIwvpANL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Highly unlikely. I only buy St Matthew Passion performed by either German or Dutch ensembles.
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 07, 2010, 07:57:17 AM
Bunny if only I had known this several days ago when I placed small order with MDT (UK) that included the new Andreas Staier Goldberg Variations it would have been in the buy basket also! :)
No matter! I'm sure it will still be there the next time you order. ;)
Quote from: Coopmv on February 07, 2010, 03:02:26 AM
I used the term low-budget to describe the production costs and not the performance, as I am convinced this recording cost a bit less to produce than most other versions. I actually have the version by the Sixteen and Harry Christopher on Hyperion, which I have not listened to in a number of years. I do not have the version by Koopman, though I have two versions by Nikolaus Harnoncourt, which are the only non-British ensembles performing this work in my collection ...
There's also the recording Christopher and the Sixteen released on their own label, CORO, in 2008 (it was recorded in 2007, so it's not simply a re-issue of the Hyperion recording), with Sampson, Wyn-Rogers, Padmore and Purves as the solists. Of the three recordings of M. that I have, it's my second preference: my first preference goes to the Jacobs set. (Version number 3 is the one Colin Davis did with the LSO back in 1966, before some of us were born...)
Quote from: kishnevi on February 07, 2010, 04:50:41 PM
There's also the recording Christopher and the Sixteen released on their own label, CORO, in 2008 (it was recorded in 2007, so it's not simply a re-issue of the Hyperion recording), with Sampson, Wyn-Rogers, Padmore and Purves as the solists. Of the three recordings of M. that I have, it's my second preference: my first preference goes to the Jacobs set. (Version number 3 is the one Colin Davis did with the LSO back in 1966, before some of us were born...)
The Colin Davis 1966 or 1967 Philips recording was a ground-breaking recording in the sense that it was the first set that decidedly broke away from the traditional Victorian practice espoused by Sir Malcolm Sargent when massive choir was used. I believe it was then followed by recordings by Charles Mackerras and Raymond Leppard with the then newly created English Chamber Orchestra. I still have the Sir Colin's Philips LP set in pristine condition. I bought the set in the mid 70's.
I also have the Sir Malcolm's set on cassette tapes.
Quote from: Coopmv on February 07, 2010, 05:02:25 PM
The Colin Davis 1966 or 1967 Philips recording was a ground-breaking recording in the sense that it was the first set that decidedly broke away from the traditional Victorian practice espoused by Sir Malcolm Sargent when massive choir was used. I believe it was then followed by recordings by Charles Mackerras and Raymond Leppard with the then newly created English Chamber Orchestra. I still have the Sir Colin's Philips LP set in pristine condition. I bought the set in the mid 70's.
I also have the Sir Malcolm's set on cassette tapes.
Sir Colin's second one with the BRSO (c. 1990) is not with small forces and is almost operatic in its scope. However, it doesn't feel Victorian either.
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/c3/c1/fc04b340dca02540600f9010.L.jpg)
Quote from: Bunny on February 07, 2010, 05:25:03 PM
Sir Colin's second one with the BRSO (c. 1990) is not with small forces and is almost operatic in its scope. However, it doesn't feel Victorian either.
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/c3/c1/fc04b340dca02540600f9010.L.jpg)
Was it 1990? I thought it was earlier. At any rate, the set is OOP but I may have taped it off the air on one of my open-reel tapes. I am probably the only forum member that have a bunch of classical music on open-reels ... ;)
I like both recordings by Colin Davis, but the differences are very very marginal. In the sixties his approach was rather new, and in the eighties no one really was waiting for a rehearsal, I guess. Personally, I'm not that fond of the singing of Hanna Schwarz in the second recording. Therefore I prefer the first.
About Butt and his Bach SMP: very worthwhile IMO. Much more expressive than McCreesh (whose recording I find far too smooth) and better blending of the OVPP-choir parts.
BTW, here's a link to the SMP thread:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4877.0.html
Quote from: Marc on February 08, 2010, 01:30:42 PM
I like both recordings by Colin Davis, but the differences are very very marginal. In the sixties his approach was rather new, and in the eighties no one really was waiting for a rehearsal, I guess. Personally, I'm not that fond of the singing of Hanna Schwarz in the second recording. Therefore I prefer the first.
About Butt and his Bach SMP: very worthwhile IMO. Much more expressive than McCreesh (whose recording I find far too smooth) and better blending of the OVPP-choir parts.
BTW, here's a link to the SMP thread:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4877.0.html
I hear you. I have the Beethoven Symphony No. 9 by the VPO with Bernstein on DVD. I did not particularly like the singing of Hanna Schwarz.
Quote from: Anne on December 20, 2007, 04:05:10 PM
This is not what you asked for, but a friend told me to listen to Beecham's. It's on CD.
Yup! I absolutely agree with it ... I have both CD & LP (RCA Soria).
Don't forget the Gardiner (Philips) ... I have too ... both CD & LP.
My selection is from LP: Beecham, Davis (LSO), Handel-Mozart with Mackerras on DGG-Achiv
and this cd with enough alternative versions to be able to re-create some 18 versions from Handel's time. My preference is Beecham, but I heard the McGegan only once and maybe it will seem better if I don't listen to all the multiple versions .
I have been blown away by the McCreesh recording over the Christmas holiday. Last night, I felt I was in heaven while listening to part I. Wow.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XT16QN5SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The only other Messiahs I've heard are the Gardiner and Hogwood.
So, where should I go for other great HIP Messiahs? Pinnock perhaps?
Quote from: Leo K on December 27, 2010, 07:55:30 AM
I have been blown away by the McCreesh recording over the Christmas holiday. Last night, I felt I was in heaven while listening to part I. Wow.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XT16QN5SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The only other Messiahs I've heard are the Gardiner and Hogwood.
So, where should I go for other great HIP Messiahs? Pinnock perhaps?
The forte of Trevor Pinnock is instrumental music. IMO, Christopher Hogwood and John Eliot Gardiner are better when it comes to choral works ...
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio/Scherchen-Hermann-29.jpg)
"Often we conductors encounter orchestral playing in which all possible virtues -- accuracy, elasticity, evenness, power, &c.-- are united,
but in which we miss one thing: the soul of music, the song that gives inward life to musical sounds." H.S.
Always controversial, Hermann Scherchen was probably too "free" to belong to any musical "crowd". No one can dismiss his technical command and musical insight but even today his readings never appealed to the historical academics or to the trendy orthodox "critics". Yet, Scherchen was a pioneer of the "modern" interpretative approach to "early music", looking for historical or document clues to help him to better interpret the notes and intentions of the composer. But in this search for objectivity he was much concerned with the "soul" of the music, with the quality and intensity of the musical expression, more than with the Holy Grail of historical "authenticity". In this sense, more than 'HIP' I believe Scherchen would probably prefer 'MIP' - musically informed performances.
There are two recordings of the Messiah by Hermann Scherchen. The first, from 1953, was produced with the London Philharmonic Orchestra and Choir and English-speaking soloists (Margaret Ritchie, Constance Shacklock, William Herbert and Richard Standen). The latter one, from 1959, was recorded in stereo with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra, the Vienna Academy Choir and a number of famous soloists of the time (Pierrette Alarie and Léopold Simoneau, Nan Merriman and, as before, Richard Standen). The 1959 recording was reissued in CD by Universal (Westminster) some 10 years ago and the 1953 version was only more recently made available by Archipel.
The London recording was one of the first "complete" recordings of the Messiah and Scherchen tried to get as close as possible to Handel's famous work and to its "soul" by studying documents of the various versions. For this 1953 recording he used a small scale orchestra and chorus, giving unusual transparency to the textures and more agility to the phrasing. He looked for unaffected but expressive soloists and modeled the tempi and every music inflections to reinforce the words and its spiritual meaning. For me this first Scherchen recording, in good mono sound, is still one of the most expressive and beautiful renditions of the Messiah. Personally, I prefer it to his latter 1959 Viennese recording and also to many of the more "HIP" versions out there.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51i2-13r%2BhL.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5119MBK-IiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: Leo K on December 27, 2010, 07:55:30 AM
I have been blown away by the McCreesh recording over the Christmas holiday. Last night, I felt I was in heaven while listening to part I. Wow.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XT16QN5SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The only other Messiahs I've heard are the Gardiner and Hogwood.
So, where should I go for other great HIP Messiahs? Pinnock perhaps?
McCreesh is one of my top 3-4 Messiahs........Only caution I will mention is that some parts have noticeably fast tempo which may not set well with those used to large scale traditional tempos, but nothing as extreme as the Minkowski Messiah for instance
Others with similar sound I really like are Layton/Hyperion and Pinnock/Archiv:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61N2GdlvSbL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B002O2MC3A/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Y8S42WA2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
My all time favorite Messiah remains Christie/HM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Z31YG4GFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000BCHJA6/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music)
Quote from: Leo K on December 27, 2010, 07:55:30 AM
I have been blown away by the McCreesh recording over the Christmas holiday. Last night, I felt I was in heaven while listening to part I. Wow.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XT16QN5SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The only other Messiahs I've heard are the Gardiner and Hogwood.
So, where should I go for other great HIP Messiahs? Pinnock perhaps?
Likely a minority opinion, I prefer the Boston Baroque on Telarc. The interpretation is highly ceremonial and exciting, but not favorable for those who want a lot of reverence.
Thanks all for your comments and thoughts. After looking more at this thread and considering, I thought I may go for this next. The sound samples I've heard on iTunes sounds fantastic.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kih6MTLLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Leo K on December 28, 2010, 12:00:51 PM
Thanks all for your comments and thoughts. After looking more at this thread and considering, I thought I may go for this next. The sound samples I've heard on iTunes sounds fantastic.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kih6MTLLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I just added this set to my Handel Messiah collection a few months ago. While I think the performance is quite refreshing, it is still not the number one version I would go to ...
It's really hard to decide! The Suzuki sounds wonderful too. Interesting voices in that one.
Quote from: Leo K on December 28, 2010, 12:00:51 PM
Thanks all for your comments and thoughts. After looking more at this thread and considering, I thought I may go for this next. The sound samples I've heard on iTunes sounds fantastic.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kih6MTLLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Indeed, this is a wonderul recording! It took me a year to hear it (since I mentioned it before in this thread), but I'm enjoying it immensely now. McCreesh is still my favorite, but this account is refreshing indeed.
8)
Nobody seems to have mentioned Solti's version on Decca with I like very much.
The Scholars Baroque Ensembles's take on Naxos is fine too.
Recently on Mezzo TV was "Haendel, le Messie" Academy of Ancient Music Orch. S. Cleobury, directeur.
The tenor was excellent - he sort of drew you into the oratorio. Some of the tempi were superfast - how the choir managed them is a wonder. I liked though "And the Glory of the Lord" done in an upbeat, almost dancing manner rather than some of the heavier, stodgy versions that one might hear, especially from amateur choirs.
ZB
It surprises me when less able choirs sing The Messiah. Very often some of the more tricky choruses are cut. I think it is one of the most difficult pieces I have sung; as far as technique is concerned. If the choir is just not up to it, as you suggest, that wonderful lightness has to be plodded through and instead we listen to the heaving of sacks of potatoes.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on December 25, 2011, 10:57:38 PM
It surprises me when less able choirs sing The Messiah. Very often some of the more tricky choruses are cut. I think it is one of the most difficult pieces I have sung; as far as technique is concerned. If the choir is just not up to it, as you suggest, that wonderful lightness has to be plodded through and instead we listen to the heaving of sacks of potatoes.
Mike
Ha, ha, our local choir wants to attempt that for next Christmas. At least we have a whole year but personally doubt that we (they) can come up to 3/4 of the tempi Cleobury took.
We just got through the
Magnificat of Pergolesi/Durante with a bit part for me as part of the Baroque Festival here. I like this version very much and used it while practicing with headphones on my ears and the score in my lap. Nice picture, too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6faxg1UlFM
ZB
I missed the last interesting live performance that took place a half-dozen years back when Neville Marrriner actually conducted the Messiah Oratorio in NYC. IIRC, it was at the Riverside Church in Manhattan. But the orchestra and chorus were no big-name.
Quote from: knight66 on December 25, 2011, 10:57:38 PM
It surprises me when less able choirs sing The Messiah. Very often some of the more tricky choruses are cut. I think it is one of the most difficult pieces I have sung; as far as technique is concerned. If the choir is just not up to it, as you suggest, that wonderful lightness has to be plodded through and instead we listen to the heaving of sacks of potatoes.
Thanks to less able amateur choirs I learned, during my teenage years, to love and admire Bach's Passions and Weihnachts-Oratorium, Händel's Messiah and Haydn's Schöpfung.
I recall an interview with Barenboim in some Dutch music magazine in the 90s, in which he stated that amateur music making is something like the heartbeat and lungs of music.
As an interpreter, Barenboim isn't my fave musician, but with this statement he was dead right IMO. Speaking of
dead: without all those amateurs loving, making and performing music, the world of music will be
dead. Probably sooner than you think.
Quote from: Marc on December 26, 2011, 12:10:48 PM
Thanks to less able amateur choirs I learned, during my teenage years, to love and admire Bach's Passions and Weihnachts-Oratorium, Händel's Messiah and Haydn's Schöpfung.
I recall an interview with Barenboim in some Dutch music magazine in the 90s, in which he stated that amateur music making is something like the heartbeat and lungs of music.
As an interpreter, Barenboim isn't my fave musician, but with this statement he was dead right IMO. Speaking of dead: without all those amateurs loving, making and performing music, the world of music will be dead. Probably sooner than you think.
But are there many truly professional choirs out there, i.e. where members do not have any other jobs? I thought most members of the Netherlands Bach Society have their regular day jobs ...
Mark, I have been a member of quite a number of choirs, some excellent and with very high standards; others with a policy of turning no one away. I agree that there is a lot of pleasure to be had at all levels. There is much wonderful Handel that does not get an airing and it would provide more chances to the kind of choir that does not audition to make a good fist than the near ubiquitous Messiah. None of the great Bach pieces provide the technical difficulties for the choir as does Messiah. I refer here to physically getting round the notes rather than reading the music.
By all means, people ought not to deny themselves The Messiah, but much other music stands a better chance of an adequate performance.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on December 26, 2011, 01:26:22 PM
[....] I agree that there is a lot of pleasure to be had at all levels. [....]
Indeed. Generally, that's what I meant to say.
Quote from: knight66
[....] By all means, people ought not to deny themselves The Messiah, but much other music stands a better chance of an adequate performance.
As I myself have sung in several choirs (of various quality) too, I realized there's so much 'easier' stuff to throw yourself at.
But hey,
Messiah is a popular work, so .... let's just give them the chance!
The best thing is probably to save your good money and go to a full-pro performance. :)
Fairly recently I was involved in a four choirs together performance of the Verdi Requiem. This was for choirs that did not audition and some funding was obtained on that basis. We sang it in a local abbey. The soloists were very good, as was the orchestra and the effect on the choral singers was striking. Everyone got a terrific amount of pleasure from it. It was not utterly top notch in the choral dept.....I stood behind some bases who stole the alto and soprano lines at various points; but it was terrifically worthwhile and I guess I am writing against my earlier comments.
I do agree Marc that it is important for people to be able to attempt these killer pieces, it is not so much about managing expectations but inspiring the singers to do better than they thought that they could. But where inspiration is lacking, folk need to look at the less demanding, but still wonderful pieces.
Mike
(http://www.ambergreen-classical.co.uk/ekmps/shops/padmagupta/images/scherchen.handel-choruses-from-the-messiah-.whs-20043-3305-p.jpg)
I am really impressed upon hearing Scherchen's 2nd account of Messiah for the first time. Just finished with Part One. I am interested in what Dan Davis said of this recording in his review for Classics Today, "In other words, this isn't ye olde comfortable, plush Messiah of yore. It's a modernist Messiah for our times, with the trappings of historical accuracy replaced by deep emotional expression."
To contrast with Scherchen, I'd like to explore "plush Messiah of Yore" performances of this work to contrast with Scherchen's amazing introspective take.
Quote from: Leo K on August 26, 2012, 07:44:14 AM
[...] Scherchen's amazing introspective take.
I'm guessing "introspective" here means:
very slow 8), or is there more to it? :)
Q
Quote from: Que on August 26, 2012, 08:25:27 AM
I'm guessing "introspective" here means: very slow 8), or is there more to it? :)
Q
Is this in the style of Sir Malcolm Sargent's Handel Messiah, which I did not particularly enjoy? ;D
Quote from: Que on August 26, 2012, 08:25:27 AM
I'm guessing "introspective" here means: very slow 8), or is there more to it? :)
Q
;D
Inevitably, slow usually equals intropective. It is said that this recording reflects Handel scholarship circa 1959, but of course Scherchen picks and chooses to build his grand marble monument, which yes is very slow at times. "The trumpet shall sound" crosses the finish line at 9:42. "I know that my Redeemer liveth" redeems itself in 10:28, and "He was despised" clocks in at a remarkable 14:51! But "And He shall purify" goes by like mad, so it goes. ;D Whatever works!
Quote from: knight66 on December 26, 2011, 01:26:22 PM
There is much wonderful Handel that does not get an airing and it would provide more chances to the kind of choir that does not audition to make a good fist than the near ubiquitous Messiah. None of the great Bach pieces provide the technical difficulties for the choir as does Messiah. I refer here to physically getting round the notes rather than reading the music.
This is interesting; I would have thought that the b minor mass was far more difficult for a choir than Messiah. I once heard a performance of Messiah with a young laypeople choir that was decent but they had "His yoke is easy" and maybe another chorus sung by the (professional) soloists.
Karl Richter´s DG recording in English (there´s also one in German), apparently not mentioned here, has always been my favourite.
BTW, both Scherchens are interesting, but the singing is generally of very varied quality.
Richter's early 1960s German recording is negligible, except maybe for ardent fans of one of the singers. I gave this to my mother for Xmas several years ago but was really disappointed. It's plodding, "four square" and the soloist are not all that great despite having famous names.
But I must assume that the somewhat later English language recording is much better.
I have heard parts or most of one of Scherchen's (I guess the earlier one) and the sound is bad, the soloists variable and the whole thing extremely excentric. While I love some of Scherchen's excentric but highly expressive recordings (St. Matthew, Art of Fugue, Handel op.6 concerti, Mahler's 2nd, Mozart's Requiem and more) I was not convinced by what I heard of his Messiah.
There are to many recordings around for me to have listened to all of the famous ones. I have about seven or so on the shelf and heard a few more. My favorites are probably McCreesh for HIP and the 1960s Colin Davis because I basically got to know the piece with that one and it still holds up very well.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 03, 2016, 01:01:54 PM
This is interesting; I would have thought that the b minor mass was far more difficult for a choir than Messiah. I once heard a performance of Messiah with a young laypeople choir that was decent but they had "His yoke is easy" and maybe another chorus sung by the (professional) soloists.
There are several really demanding parts of the Messiah and a lot of local choirs cut swathes of it. Yes, the b Minor is also very demanding, but the breath control and fast runs within the Messiah felt more difficult in terms of vocal technique. The b Minor is demanding in different ways. It was not written as one piece, but it feels right to bring it together and treat it as one piece.
Of the pre 20th cent works, I think the most demanding for the chorus is the Missa Solemnis: not a mountain, a range of mountains.
Mike
Quote from: Jo498 on March 03, 2016, 01:38:16 PM
Richter's early 1960s German recording is negligible, except maybe for ardent fans of one of the singers. I gave this to my mother for Xmas several years ago but was really disappointed. It's plodding, "four square" and the soloist are not all that great despite having famous names.
But I must assume that the somewhat later English language recording is much better.
I have heard parts or most of one of Scherchen's (I guess the earlier one) and the sound is bad, the soloists variable and the whole thing extremely excentric. While I love some of Scherchen's excentric but highly expressive recordings (St. Matthew, Art of Fugue, Handel op.6 concerti, Mahler's 2nd, Mozart's Requiem and more) I was not convinced by what I heard of his Messiah.
There are to many recordings around for me to have listened to all of the famous ones. I have about seven or so on the shelf and heard a few more. My favorites are probably McCreesh for HIP and the 1960s Colin Davis because I basically got to know the piece with that one and it still holds up very well.
The recent Haim version is, I think, special. But if you are happy with the two excellent ones you specify; there is nothing to compell you further I feel. I have about half a dozen versions and don't think I need more. In contrast, I can never have too many b Minor Masses which seems to me to be that much more interesting with more complex subtexts. Ditto St Matthew, you never come to an end of it.
Mike
Thanks for the comments. Messiah certainly has more "fast" passages for the choir then e.g. Bach's Passions (not sure about the b minor mass) and in some recordings I had the impression that e.g. "And he shall purify" was sung as fast as possible like a choral exercise (I prefer a somewhat more weighty approach).
I actually have fewer recordings of the b minor mass, not for specific reasons. But the Mass is for me a more "objective" piece mainly dependent on a good choir and conductor. Unless the solo singer totally suck, I do not care so much about them in this piece. This is hugely different in Messiah and even more so in the St. Matthew where in addition to the soloists one need a superlative evangelist and Christ.
But for all three works there are lots of very good recordings in different stylistic approaches to choose from. The somewhat recent Messiah recording I have on my list for eventual purchase is the one on Linn.
Joe, It is interesting to see what gets different people's juices going. I enjoy Messiah and am fully engaged in it when performing; but it does not for me provide the same kind of significant experience as do the two Bach works we have mentioned. In those theatrical drama seems to be supplemented by a rare kind of reflection and a more personal sense of journey, one with more layers in it.
Handel's Theodora can, in the right hands, provide me with just that deep sense of an inner journey. It is my favourite Handel piece.
Mike
I've sung both the B minor Mass and the Messiah; the Mass is definitely the more demanding for the singers. Wider vocal ranges, more wide leaps, and more constant singing. But they are both an ecstasy to sing. ;D