Poll
Question:
Your favo(u)rite at this moment?
Option 1: Dunstable
Option 2: Henry VIII
Option 3: Purcell
Option 4: Handel
Option 5: Elgar
Option 6: Vaughan Williams
Option 7: Holst
Option 8: Britten
Option 9: Other
Have at it. 0:)
Henry - The King's Ballad ftw! 0:)
Much of the time, and currently, RVW is my favorite British composer. Most of the other candidates do not much contend with him (in my musical affections) . . . on another day, I might have voted for Britten.
Elgar
Purcell
Finzi
0:)
RVW & Walton perhaps too but I haven't explored their music enough.
Quote from: 71 dB on July 08, 2008, 08:19:14 AM
Elgar
Purcell
Finzi
0:)
RVW & Walton perhaps too but I haven't explored their music enough.
Thanks for playing!
I consider Vaughan Williams the greatest British composer and I have more music by him than any other composer in my collection.
I also, however, love the music of Havergal Brian, Edmund Rubbra and Robert Simpson.
and thanks for making this "British Composer" rather than "English Composer" :)
RVW for me as well.
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 08, 2008, 08:28:47 AM
I consider Vaughan Williams the greatest British composer and I have more music by him than any other composer in my collection.
I also, however, love the music of Havergal Brian, Edmund Rubbra and Robert Simpson.
Many here are symphonically minded, so I won't be surprised if VW sweeps aside the competition.
Quoteand thanks for making this "British Composer" rather than "English Composer" :)
0:)
Huge Britten fan myself, but Vaughan Williams might be a close second.
--Bruce
Quote from: Mn Dave on July 08, 2008, 08:20:59 AM
Thanks for playing!
No problem except if Handel is included my list is actually:
Elgar
Handel
Purcell
Finzi
RVW seem to be very popular here. I wish I had heard more his music... :P
Quote from: 71 dB on July 08, 2008, 10:17:51 AM
RVW seem to be very popular here. I wish I had heard more his music... :P
I'm sure you can find some somewhere. :)
Quote from: Mn Dave on July 08, 2008, 10:20:20 AM
I'm sure you can find some somewhere. :)
There isn't time for every composer, at least for now that my interest is in non-classical music (Kate Bush, Tangerine Dream, Dave Brubeck, etc.)
Quote from: 71 dB on July 08, 2008, 10:36:38 AM
There isn't time for every composer...
Tell me about it. ::)
Quote from: Mn Dave on July 08, 2008, 10:43:14 AM
Tell me about it. ::)
Hah, last december I bought Ravel's complete orchestral works (Inbal) and I still haven't given it proper listening. I don't know if it's Ravel's music or the recording but I have hard time getting warm to the boxset! ::)
You saw fit to put Dunstable on the list but not Tallis or Byrd? The heck?
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 08, 2008, 08:28:47 AM
and thanks for making this "British Composer" rather than "English Composer" :)
Ho, i didn't know there was a difference.
Apart from my vote here for RVW, who's a class apart imo, my personal list would probably also include:
Frederick Delius
Havergal Brian
Frank Bridge
Arthur Bliss
Edmund Rubbra
Eugene Goossens
Ernest John Moeran
William Alwyn
Lennox Berkeley
Alan Rawsthorne
Michael Tippett
Malcolm Arnold
Richard Arnell
Alun Hoddinott
(Btw, interesting to learn that Gerald Finzi is in this shortlist, and Frederick Delius, William Walton, Michael Tippett, to mention a few names of better-known composers, aren't.)
I see no Finzi.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on July 08, 2008, 11:26:30 AM
You saw fit to put Dunstable on the list but not Tallis or Byrd? The heck?
I actually didn't. I used a grouping from elsewhere on the internet.
Quote from: Mn Dave on July 08, 2008, 11:32:10 AM
I see no Finzi.
Isn't he under the last heading? ;D
It'd kill the Corkster to see how poorly Handel is faring . . . .
Quote from: 71 dB on July 08, 2008, 10:17:51 AM
No problem except if Handel is included my list is actually:
Elgar
Handel
Purcell
Finzi
Handel's a German composer - you know that. ::)
Quote from: karlhenning on July 08, 2008, 11:41:06 AM
It'd kill the Corkster to see how poorly Handel is faring . . . .
Quote from: Don on July 08, 2008, 11:42:18 AM
Handel's a German composer - you know that. ::)
I think the two might be related.
Quote from: Don on July 08, 2008, 11:42:18 AM
Handel's a German composer - you know that. ::)
English composer of German birth. ;D
Quote from: Mn Dave on July 08, 2008, 11:43:26 AM
English composer of German birth. ;D
Artfully done,
mon vieux.
Quote from: Mn Dave on July 08, 2008, 11:43:26 AM
English composer of German birth. ;D
Just like Lafayette was an American soldier of French birth. 8)
Quote from: Don on July 08, 2008, 11:49:52 AM
Just like Lafayette was an American soldier of French birth. 8)
I had American schooling so I have no idea what you're talking about. 0:)
Quote from: Mn Dave on July 08, 2008, 11:33:49 AM
I actually didn't. I used a grouping from elsewhere on the internet.
Omg, you mean the list was serious (at least to the person who originally made it)? :-X
Quote from: Lethe on July 08, 2008, 12:06:55 PM
Omg, you mean the list was serious (at least to the person who originally made it)? :-X
You mean you
weren't serious?
Quote from: Mn Dave on July 08, 2008, 12:08:00 PM
You mean you weren't serious?
According to the poll, at least one other person agrees with me... 0:)
Whoever voted for Purcell is some kind of genius.
Quote from: Don on July 08, 2008, 11:42:18 AM
Handel's a German composer - you know that. ::)
Strictly speaking, no German nationality existed in his time. And I would add, that George Frideric Handel might be considered British, definitely so since 1727. But
Georg Friedrich Händel was a German, born in the city of Halle, annexed by Prussia a couple of years before his birth. Calling him in this phase a "Saxon" or "Prussian" composer would be more correct, imo.
Quote from: Don on July 08, 2008, 11:42:18 AM
Handel's a German composer - you know that. ::)
Yes, I think so too but I said "if Handel is..."
The poll creator included him.
Quote from: 71 dB on July 08, 2008, 01:08:51 PM
Yes, I think so too but I said "if Handel is..."
The poll creator included him.
He is included in the poll, so there's no "if"; you are
responding to the poll.
Quote from: Christo on July 08, 2008, 12:50:08 PM
Strictly speaking, no German nationality existed in his time. And I would add, that George Frideric Handel might be considered British, definitely so since 1727. But Georg Friedrich Händel was a German, born in the city of Halle, annexed by Prussia a couple of years before his birth. Calling him in this phase a "Saxon" or "Prussian" composer would be more correct, imo.
To make it easy on my brain, I'll think of him as the best baroque composer after Bach. :D
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on July 08, 2008, 11:27:53 AM
Ho, i didn't know there was a difference.
As a Scotsman and citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, I will assume that you are jesting!
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 08, 2008, 03:52:04 PM
As a Scotsman and citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, I will assume that you are jesting!
I saw that coming...eventually.
Quote from: Mn Dave on July 08, 2008, 04:01:51 PM
I saw that coming...eventually.
Yes...I was out to dinner. Therefore the delayed response :)
Quote from: Christo on July 08, 2008, 12:50:08 PM
Strictly speaking, no German nationality existed in his time. And I would add, that George Frideric Handel might be considered British, definitely so since 1727. But Georg Friedrich Händel was a German, born in the city of Halle, annexed by Prussia a couple of years before his birth. Calling him in this phase a "Saxon" or "Prussian" composer would be more correct, imo.
Well said!
No Arnold, Bax, or Walton in the poll? :(
Quote from: Don on July 08, 2008, 03:23:10 PM
To make it easy on my brain, I'll think of him [Handel] as the best baroque composer after Bach. :D
That he is, British or not. ;)
Came out in the US yesterday.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61W3ZvHH-kL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: 71 dB on July 09, 2008, 04:30:30 AM
That he is, British or not. ;)
No. Purcell is beating him.
Quote from: Mn Dave on July 09, 2008, 09:45:31 AM
No. Purcell is beating him.
Purcell is not that good.
Telemann < Purcell < Buxtehude < Handel < J. S. Bach
Quote from: 71 dB on July 09, 2008, 11:22:22 AM
Purcell is not that good.
Them's fightin' words.
But luckily for you, I am a pacifist. 0:)
Quote from: 71 dB on July 09, 2008, 11:22:22 AM
Telemann < Purcell < Buxtehude < Handel < J. S. Bach
Way to think
inside the box,
Poju!
Way to keep it a
small box, too!
Quote from: Christo on July 08, 2008, 11:29:12 AM
Apart from my vote here for RVW, who's a class apart imo, my personal list would probably also include:
Frederick Delius
Havergal Brian
Frank Bridge
Arthur Bliss
Edmund Rubbra
Eugene Goossens
Ernest John Moeran
William Alwyn
Lennox Berkeley
Alan Rawsthorne
Michael Tippett
Malcolm Arnold
Richard Arnell
Alun Hoddinott
(Btw, interesting to learn that Gerald Finzi is in this shortlist, and Frederick Delius, William Walton, Michael Tippett, to mention a few names of better-known composers, aren't.)
Christo those are all excellent choices, I almost wrote in Malcolm Arnold but I picked Holst instead. Both are favorites of mine. Here is what I have by both composers.
ARNOLD, MALCOLM (1921-2006)
Beckus the Dandipratt, Op. 5 (1943)
Commonwealth Christmas Overture (1957)
The Fair Field, Op. 110 (1972)
Arnold, London Philharmonic Orchestra [CD] Reference Recordings RR-48CD Four English Dances, Set I, Op. 27 (1950)
Four English Dances, Set II, Op. 33 (1951)
Four Irish Dances, Op. 126 (1986)
Four Scottish Dances, Op. 59 (1957)
Arnold, London Philharmonic Orchestra [CD-R] Lyrita Recorded Edition DL-11 Four Cornish Dances, Op. 91 (1966)
Arnold, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra [LP] EMI ASD 2878 The Padstow Lifeboat: March for Orchestra, Op. 94 (1967)
Junkin, Dallas Wind Symphony [SACD] Reference Recordings RR-906SACD Peterloo Overture, Op. 97 (1968)
Arnold, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra [LP] EMI ASD 2878 The Smoke, Op. 21 (1948)
A Sussex Overture, Op. 31 (1951)
Arnold, London Philharmonic Orchestra [CD] Reference Recordings RR-48CD Symphony No. 4, Op. 71 (1960)
Arnold, London Philharmonic [CD-R] Lyrita Recorded Edition DL-18 Symphony No. 5, Op. 74 (1961)
Arnold, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra [LP] EMI ASD 2878 Tam O'Shanter, Op. 51 (1955)
Gibson, New Symphony of London [LP] RCA Living Stereo / Classic LSC-2225HOLST, GUSTAV (1874-1934) Beni Mora - Oriental Suite, Op. 29
Boult, London Philharmonic Orchestra [CD-R] Lyrita Recorded Edition DL-11 Brook Green Suite (1933)
Del Mar, Bournemouth Sinfonietta [LP] EMI ASD 3953 A Fugal Overture, Op. 40, No. 1
Boult, London Philharmonic Orchestra [CD-R] Lyrita Recorded Edition DL-11 Hammersmith, Prelude and Scherzo (1930)
Dunn, Dallas Wind Symphony [LP] Reference Recordings RR-39 Japanese Suite (1915)
Boult, London Symphony Orchestra [LP] Lyrita Recorded Edition SRCS.50 Lyric Movement for Viola and small orchestra (1933)
Pooley, Elder, Halle Orchestra [SACD] Hyperion SACDA67270 A Moorside Suite (1928)
Dunn, Dallas Wind Symphony [LP] Reference Recordings RR-39 The Planets, Op. 32 (1916)
Elder, Halle Orchestra and Choir [SACD] Hyperion SACDA67270
Mehta, Los Angeles Philharmonic [LP] Decca / Speakers Corner SXL 6529 A Somerset Rhapsody (1907)
Del Mar, Bournemouth Sinfonietta [LP] EMI ASD 3953 Suite No. 1 in E Flat for Military Band, Op. 28 No. 1 (1909)
Suite No. 2 in F for Military Band, Op. 28 No. 2 (1911)
Dunn, Dallas Wind Symphony [LP] Reference Recordings RR-39
Havergal Brian
This would be my first choice for starting an essential Holst collection:
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/Dec01/Holst_Decca.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/British-Music-Collection-Gustav-Holst/dp/B00005QDYL/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1215640049&sr=1-1)
Choral Hymns from the Rig Veda
Purcell Singers/Osian Ellis (harp)/Imogen Holst
Savitri
Janet Baker (mezzo), Robert Tear (tenor), Thomas Hemsley (baritone)/Purcell Singers/English Chamber Orchestra/Imogen Holst
Seven Partsongs
Purcell Singers/English Chamber Orchestra/Imogen Holst
The Evening Watch
Purcell Singers/Imogen Holst
Fugal Concerto
St Paul's Suite
St Paul Chamber Orchestra/Christopher Hogwood
Ballet Music: The Perfect Fool
Egdon Heath
London Philharmonic Orchestra/Sir Adrian Boult
The Hymn of Jesus
BBC Symphony Orchestra and Chorus/Sir Adrian Boult
Moorside Suite
Grimethorpe Colliery Band/Elgar Howarth
DECCA 470 191 2
Ferneyhough, Tallis, Tippett and Walton
The best British composers have redoubtably British names, like Holst, Bax, Delius, Elgar, Finzi, Rubbra....
Sorry, just couldn't resist :)
Quote from: 71 dB on July 09, 2008, 11:22:22 AM
Telemann < Purcell < Buxtehude < Handel < J. S. Bach
No arguments here, for a change.
Vaughan-Williams is to 20th Century what Mahler was. And Elgar was to the 19th-early 20th what Dvorak was. With of course many differences. IOW VW was more protean and visionary, Elgar more 'practical' and immediately accessible. But of course that's all BS ;). Both are among the greatest composers who ever lived, and all other Britons are slightly or largely less important. Among those - still of very high stature - I'd rate these worthy of anyone who hasn't explored the byways already:.
- Arnold
- Holst
- Delius
- Bax
They will certainly enrich one's appreciation of classical music, barring any 'nationalistic' characteristic (that's for fools). Each can be counted a genius and a composer of the first rank, not just a 'british' one.
Most others already cited are fully worthy of the exposure they get here. I'd probably rank them at the same level as the 'very good' French ones such as Magnard, Lekeu, Roussel, Honegger, Milhaud, etc. Among those worthies I'd mention:
- Alwyyn
- Bliss
- Tippett
Britten's place is still undecided IMO, with some quite unappealing characteristics, an opera composer who wrote no symphonies, few concertos (none of them really 'popular') and a lot of slightly difficult music besides. I'm still working my way through his music, and after more than 30 years, I have to admit it's a difficult progress.
I'm a great fan of Britten. But I don't find him much of the "big tune" variety of composer. All the more amazing then that I can sit spellbound while he pours on the subtlety and variety and not feel as though I've been 'cheated' out of a romping good time.
And with Britten subtlety is the name of the game. Everything sounds as if it's hanging by mere threads with contrasts changing all the time and smoky moodiness hovering over the musical line.
It's his signature sound and the more the subtlety is slighted the less successful the music becomes.
Just listened to the cello sonata last night and even in this relatively small-scaled form the fine intricacies never fail to amaze.
Can you recommend a good one-stop intro CD to Britten?
Quote from: eyeresist on July 09, 2008, 09:23:17 PM
Can you recommend a good one-stop intro CD to Britten?
Eyeresist,
If you're into opera I'd highly recommend
Billy Budd in Britten's own Decca recording. As moody as it gets.
Mostly what I have of Britten is vocal so if you're not into opera or classical music with vocals I'm a bit hard pressed to offer suggestions. His cello suites are excellent - and criminally overlooked. His violin concerto is quite nice but it is extrovert Britten without the subtle voicing he's capable of conjuring.
Otherwise a good single-disc option might be this delightful King's College Disc:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SE7W2WRAL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: eyeresist on July 09, 2008, 09:23:17 PM
Can you recommend a good one-stop intro CD to Britten?
My favorite orchestral Britten compositions:
Gloriana: Courtly Dances (1953)
Previn, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra [CD-R] Telarc Mont Juic: A Suite of Catalan Dances (with Lennox Berkeley, 1936)
Berkeley, London Philharmonic Orchestra [LP] Lyrita Recorded Edition SRCS.50 Sinfonia da Requiem, Op. 20 (1939)
Runnicles, Atlanta Symphony Orchestra [SACD] Telarc DSD SACD-60677 Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra (1945)
Felix Slatkin, Concert Arts Symphony [LP] Capitol FDS / Cisco Music SP 8373As you can see they are all from four different recordings one on SACD, two on LP and one I downloaded from eMusic.com. You might be able to get two or three of these on a single CD?
I recommend them all, don't be put off by the title of "A Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra" it is quite a wonderful piece for young and old alike. It is perhaps the best introduction of all. Enjoy.
Since I consider Händel as being German, my top british favorite composers would be:
Purcell
Gibbons
Byrd
Britten
Quote from: donwyn on July 09, 2008, 09:58:08 PM
Mostly what I have of Britten is vocal so if you're not into opera or classical music with vocals I'm a bit hard pressed to offer suggestions.
Oh dear - thanks anyway! :( Oh, but I'm interested in the story of 'Turn of the Screw', so might that opera be musically somewhat accessible? Please tell me it's not all recitative.
My core interest is major orchestral works. I've heard the Young Person's Guide, of course, and the Sinfonia da Requiem (Barbirolli live, BBC), which I confess didn't make much of an impression. I've heard one lack-lustre recording of the piano concerto, and will have to get another at some point.
To respond to what Lilas Pastia said a few posts ago, I don't think I could say Elgar is analoguous to Dvorak (being a fan of both). To me, Elgar's major orchestral works (esp. the concertos, the second symphony) sound more closely related to Mahler and that swollen, super-emotional Late Romantic family in general. I'm still not an aficionado of RVW, but his stuff seems cooler than the Romantics, and he wasn't a tunesmith to match Dvorak, Elgar or Mahler. (But I'll be getting the new issue of symphonies 4, 5 & 6 conducted by Berglund and Gibson, thanks to the RVW thread here!)
Could you elaborate more on your pairing of Mahler and Vaughan Williams?
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 09, 2008, 07:56:47 PM
Britten's place is still undecided IMO, with some quite unappealing characteristics, an opera composer who wrote no symphonies, few concertos (none of them really 'popular') and a lot of slightly difficult music besides. I'm still working my way through his music, and after more than 30 years, I have to admit it's a difficult progress.
Weird - you sum up my view of him very closely. I find his output to be rather "bitty", not particularly in quality, but in the disparate groupings of forms, scorings and intended impacts. Outside of opera it is only in the cello suites and string quartets that you can really observe a measurable progression. The "symphonies" are all too wilfully different to meaningfully compare (although I suppose the Sinfonia da Requiem and cello symphony are vaguely on the same track). But to say that there is a lot of interest in his output is understating, though - it's confusing but much of it is brilliant...
Re. your first four, my list would probably be the same, but excluding Arnold for Walton. I would be tempted to add Finzi, but that is a far too personal choice.
Quote from: Lethe on July 10, 2008, 03:41:27 AM
I find [Britten's] output to be rather "bitty", not particularly in quality, but in the disparate groupings of forms, scorings and intended impacts. Outside of opera it is only in the cello suites and string quartets that you can really observe a measurable progression.
But why is this "bitty" rather than simply versatile,
Sara? What notions of "measurable progression" are we trying to mis-fit his oeuvre to?
I tend not to be all that mad over his sacred choral music; all that I've sung or heard has been well-made in a modest
gebrauchsmusikalisch way, but none of this phase of his work has impressed me the way that other great composers of sacred music have. (And, I find that less of an overall-catalogue-marring issue than, say,
Elgar's symphonies, which convince me rather less in their way than
Britten's various sacred anthems and canticles.)
But, the operas, the
Sinfonia da requiem, the string orchestra works, the
Canticles, the
Serenade and
Nocturne for tenor and accompaniment, the
War Requiem, even so apparently modest an undertaking as
The Young Person's Guide . . . as a body of work, this clearly signals to me a great talent.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2008, 04:02:02 AM
But why is this "bitty" rather than simply versatile, Sara? What notions of "measurable progression" are we trying to mis-fit his oeuvre to?
I tend not to be all that mad over his sacred choral music; all that I've sung or heard has been well-made in a modest gebrauchsmusikalisch way, but none of this phase of his work has impressed me the way that other great composers of sacred music have. (And, I find that less of an overall-catalogue-marring issue than, say, Elgar's symphonies, which convince me rather less in their way than Britten's various sacred anthems and canticles.)
But, the operas, the Sinfonia da requiem, the string orchestra works, the Canticles, the Serenade and Nocturne for tenor and accompaniment, the War Requiem, even so apparently modest an undertaking as The Young Person's Guide . . . as a body of work, this clearly signals to me a great talent.
Yip, I'd have to add a lot more to the list to include everything I find to be very good or great, which makes the difficulty of grasping the rest of the output a little off-putting. F.eg. I can explore the byways of Haydn or Dvořák and "understand" everything that I encounter, even if it is minor or uninspired, but with Britten at times it makes me question the better works which I
do like. A wrong attitude to take, but it's unfortunately there (RVW's quote about Stravinsky having an "elaborate bag of tricks" when I am on a downer about Britten seems to apply to him more than the originally intended target). I admire the sparse quality which donwyn mentions, but it can play against him in the lesser works. I hope I'll find a time when I warm more to him, I have a lot of years left :P
No hurry, Sara; take your time :)
Time for some big-time promotion.
(http://www.steenslid.com/music/purcell/bilder/classiccd.jpg)
The original 1913 version of Vaughan Williams's London Symphony (only recording on Chandos/LSO/Hickox) is perhaps the most 'mahlerian' of VW's works. This original rambling but deeply affecting version is much darker that the 1936 revision. IMHO VW cut out the most beautiful section, just before the end of the Epilogue last movement. All credit to the late Ursula Vaughan williams for allowing this recording to take place. I was at the first performance since the First World War, a great occasion in London.
As for Britten, I am not such a fan being rather oblivious to opera. However, I saw a great performance of Sinfonia da Requiem many years ago. This, together with the War Requiem and Cantata Misericordium are my favourites.
QuoteVaughan-Williams is to 20th Century what Mahler was.
I see that my sentence is incomplete - somehow I cut it off in the middle :P. It should read: VW is to 20th Century music what Mahler was to the previous 50 years. Not in any stylistic sense (they are totally different), but in the magnitude of their contribution to music. I see them as equals in value. Mahler may seem to have probed the human experience deeper (mind, emotions), whereas VW's works address the same aspects in a more abstract way (like Sibelius). At the same time, his genius was probably more protean. He was able to express his art in many different musical forms. Mahler is more immediately accessible in his overtly dramatic, histrionic approach to musical ideas. Vaughan-Williams finds different layers of significance with a musical language that is at once rougher and more apollonian, as well as more varied, but sometimes less approachable (symphonies 4, 8 and 9 for example).
Quote from: eyeresist on July 10, 2008, 12:25:53 AM
Oh dear - thanks anyway! :( Oh, but I'm interested in the story of 'Turn of the Screw', so might that opera be musically somewhat accessible? Please tell me it's not all recitative.
My core interest is major orchestral works.
Turn of the Screw is unique and exotic and very accessible. However, if your two main requirements are 1) traditional operatic singing 2) backed by large orchestral forces you might want to steer clear.
But if you think you'd like something a little 'offbeat' you might find it worth your while.
Turn is a chamber opera comprised of thirteen instrumentalists supporting the vocal soloists. Yes, it's pretty 'talky' and you'll not soon mistake it for Rossini but in the tradition of 20th century opera it has a flavor all its own. It makes good use of 'sparseness' (as Lethe described it) but what gives it its staying power is how the empty spaces are strategically filled. Pretty clever writing by Britten.
Quote from: bhodges on July 08, 2008, 08:35:10 AM
Huge Britten fan myself, but Vaughan Williams might be a close second.
--Bruce
Ditto, with Elgar third.
I don't regard Handel as British.
Mike
Quote from: knight on July 10, 2008, 09:35:52 PM
I don't regard Handel as British.
Me neither.
Among the poll choices,
Vaughan Williams and
Elgar would be my picks. However, I wouldn't want to be without
Walton,
Foulds,
Bantock,
Arnold and
Simpson.
Tovey deserves honorary mention for his exquisite piano concerto.
Many of the others already mentioned above have penned works I deeply admire but citing names has to stop somewhere.
Quote from: Wanderer on July 11, 2008, 12:40:31 AM
Me neither.
Among the poll choices, Vaughan Williams and Elgar would be my picks. However, I wouldn't want to be without Walton, Foulds, Bantock, Arnold and Simpson. Tovey deserves honorary mention for his exquisite piano concerto.
Many of the others already mentioned above have penned works I deeply admire but citing names has to stop somewhere.
Interesting choice of composers, all of whom appeal to me (some reservations about Simpson but like symphs 1, 3 and 5). The slow movement of the Tovey Symphony is very moving.
Quote from: donwyn on July 10, 2008, 09:17:43 PM
Turn of the Screw is unique and exotic and very accessible. However, if your two main requirements are 1) traditional operatic singing 2) backed by large orchestral forces you might want to steer clear.
But if you think you'd like something a little 'offbeat' you might find it worth your while. Turn is a chamber opera comprised of thirteen instrumentalists supporting the vocal soloists. Yes, it's pretty 'talky' and you'll not soon mistake it for Rossini but in the tradition of 20th century opera it has a flavor all its own. It makes good use of 'sparseness' (as Lethe described it) but what gives it its staying power is how the empty spaces are strategically filled. Pretty clever writing by Britten.
Actually, I'm not a big fan of "traditional operatic singing"! I've been whetting my appetite by reading the Third Ear Guide's Britten entry, so I think some sort of purchase may be imminent....
Quote from: eyeresist on July 13, 2008, 05:42:36 PM
Actually, I'm not a big fan of "traditional operatic singing"! I've been whetting my appetite by reading the Third Ear Guide's Britten entry, so I think some sort of purchase may be imminent....
Best of luck if you decide to take the plunge.
Incidentally, you might find this Britten opera thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,163.0.html) a helpful read...
Thank you! Gee, this forum business can sure get expensive....
Apropos to this tiny Britten tangent, I've just made acquaintance with a recording that has turned my image of Britten on its head.
Move over the image of Britten as 'sleight of hand' master and make room for Britten (for at least this one work) the racy, sequined showman! Wouldn't have believed it but Britten matches that paragon of bravura showmanship, Liszt, at his own game. The piano writing in the below PC recording is truly spectacular! Dancing, dodging, coaxing...BLISTERING! Thoroughly pulse-pounding in the grand manner.
And when we get to the slow movement...oooooooo dawgy...break out the hanky....
Granted it's only one listen but if this doesn't rank in the top handful of great 20th c. piano concertos, then, well...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z1J4CQSHL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: donwyn on July 14, 2008, 09:51:58 PM
Apropos to this tiny Britten tangent, I've just made acquaintance with a recording that has turned my image of Britten on its head.
Move over the image of Britten as 'sleight of hand' master and make room for Britten (for at least this one work) the racy, sequined showman! Wouldn't have believed it but Britten matches that paragon of bravura showmanship, Liszt, at his own game. The piano writing in the below PC recording is truly spectacular! Dancing, dodging, coaxing...BLISTERING! Thoroughly pulse-pounding in the grand manner.
And when we get to the slow movement...oooooooo dawgy...break out the hanky....
Granted it's only one listen but if this doesn't rank in the top handful of great 20th c. piano concertos, then, well...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z1J4CQSHL._SS500_.jpg)
I'll have to check it out.
This Naxos disc with the
Violin Concerto and the
Cello Symphony is one of the most important CDs I've acquired in a very long time. It spurred an intense
Britten listening period which has continued for several weeks. As a result I've had a major turnaround in my estimation of the composer.
(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1895/brittenviolincellopf3.jpg)
Quote from: drogulus on July 17, 2008, 12:48:50 PM
I'll have to check it out.
I don't think you'll be sorry. Especially if you like the violin concerto. The piano concerto is much in the same vein - unbridled. Maybe even more so.
Try if you can to find the Andsnes recording above. It's a whirlwind. Yes I'm sure there are other recordings out there but this one makes
such a good case for the work. It's OOP but available at ArkivMusic as part of their "On Demand" line.
You won't go wrong with Richter's own reading, with Britten, either.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Nt7iPnr9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
But, from my experience, this work it doesn't require having 'a case' made for it - it's just a superb piece. :)
....although I think Tippett's Concerto is on an even more exalted plane:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21BWXMGHZ5L._SL500_AA131_.jpg)
(the above version being coupled with the utterly gorgeous Triple Concerto - buy, buy, buy).
Tippet would be a definite vote for this particular Brit in the poll, if I was inclined to vote at all....
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 18, 2008, 05:22:16 AM
....although I think Tippett's Concerto is on an even more exalted plane:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21BWXMGHZ5L._SL500_AA131_.jpg)
(the above version being coupled with the utterly gorgeous Triple Concerto - buy, buy, buy).
Tippet would be a definite vote for this particular Brit in the poll, if I was inclined to vote at all....
Is download, download, download okay, too?
Thank you. ;)
Luke is right, you know, Johan.
Quote from: Christo on July 08, 2008, 11:29:12 AM
Apart from my vote here for RVW, who's a class apart imo, my personal list would probably also include:
Frederick Delius
Havergal Brian
Frank Bridge
Arthur Bliss
Edmund Rubbra
Eugene Goossens
Ernest John Moeran
William Alwyn
Lennox Berkeley
Alan Rawsthorne
Michael Tippett
Malcolm Arnold
Richard Arnell
Alun Hoddinott
(Btw, interesting to learn that Gerald Finzi is in this shortlist, and Frederick Delius, William Walton, Michael Tippett, to mention a few names of better-known composers, aren't.)
Don't you forget Bax, Christo?
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2008, 06:35:31 AM
Luke is right, you know, Johan.
Luke's infallibility in matters musical is an article of faith for me.
Most of the time.
Mine too, though maybe less of the time.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 18, 2008, 07:10:26 AM
Mine too, though maybe less of the time.
Well, put in the hours, and you never know....
Quote from: Henk on July 18, 2008, 06:43:24 AM
Don't you forget Bax, Christo?
To whom I would add-
Arnold Cooke
Benjamin Frankel
Gordon Jacob
George Lloyd
William Mathias
John McCabe
Humphrey Searle
Robert Simpson
Bernard Stevens
For the Britten Piano Concerto, I'm going with the Bedford/ECO on Naxos with Joanna MacGregor on piano. It's downloading now. :)
(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/957/brittenpianoconcertorr7.jpg)
A friend was at a concert this week of the Manchester Halle. Sir Mark Elder conducting Elgar's Dream of Gerontius. The singers were PAul Groves, Alice Coote and Bryn Terfel.
The reaction has been very favourable. The concert has been recorded for issue on CD.
Mike
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 18, 2008, 05:17:54 AM
You won't go wrong with Richter's own reading, with Britten, either.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Nt7iPnr9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
But, from my experience, this work it doesn't require having 'a case' made for it - it's just a superb piece. :)
I probably should have that Richter/Britten recording too. The piece is just so overwhelming I'd love to hear an alternate take. And who better than the composer and a confidant? Thanks for mentioning it.
And as far as my "making a case for it" quip...yeah, big
non sequitur. But I meant well. :)
I've gone with Vaughan Williams, as his Fifth Symphony has made such a deep impact on me this year. But if this were a poll for which on the list should be crowned king, I'd be approaching the throne of Britten - a man whose genius seemed without end, and whose musical invention astounds me time and again.
After discovering some of his chamber pieces, thanks to Harry and hearing this group play his works from time to time (http://dcc1079.googlepages.com/), Handel was my choice.
What is the purpose of these polls? The prove that Elgar is a mediocre composer at best?
The result does not chance anything, I still enjoy Elgar.
Perhaps I should not post at all because I am really pissed of right now (not because of the poll result but because the byrocrazy of social security. It drives me nuts!)
>:(
The only piece of English music likely to make my desert isle top ten is Elgar's Cello Concerto. (Polu, naturally, thinks that is one of his poorer efforts, an inferior work that only an idiot would enjoy...or so he has suggested on numerous occasions.) That said, my choice for "greatest" has to be RVW, for no other that I know of has written so much music of such consistently high quality that also appeals to my taste.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 29, 2008, 11:55:00 AM
The only piece of English music likely to make my desert isle top ten is Elgar's Cello Concerto. (Polu, naturally, thinks that is one of his poorer efforts, an inferior work that only an idiot would enjoy...or so he has suggested on numerous occasions.)
It is not an inferior work, it is a stunning Cello Concerto but in my opinion Elgar has many even better works (Violin Concerto, Symphonies, Piano Quintet, The Dream of Gerontius, The Apostles, The Kingdom,...)
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 29, 2008, 11:55:00 AM
The only piece of English music likely to make my desert isle top ten is Elgar's Cello Concerto.
Christ! :o
Strong words, Dave.
Consider that Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Sibelius, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Brahms, Debussy, Mahler, and a few others are jockeying for the other nine spots, and you'll see what high regard I have for this piece, Mark.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 29, 2008, 12:42:35 PM
Consider that Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Sibelius, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Brahms, Debussy, Mahler, and a few others are jockeying for the other nine spots, and you'll see what high regard I have for this piece, Mark.
It's one of the great cello concerti, no doubt. I have Du Pre to thank for my love of it.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 29, 2008, 12:42:35 PM
Consider that Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Sibelius, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Brahms, Debussy, Mahler, and a few others are jockeying for the other nine spots, and you'll see what high regard I have for this piece, Mark.
I have no problem with that as I can make an English link with all of them.
Debussy, for example, polished off 'La Mer' in Eastbourne!
Quote from: Hector on July 30, 2008, 06:17:00 AM
Debussy, for example, polished off 'La Mer' in Eastbourne!
Is that right? I thought that was a misconception. ???
"It was started in 1903 in France and completed in 1905 on the English Channel coast in Eastbourne." (Wikipedia)
Does a wikipedia citation settle anything? Just asking for information.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 30, 2008, 07:43:11 AM
Does a wikipedia citation settle anything? Just asking for information.
I added originally:
if you believe Wikipedia, that is. But there is a sort of peer-review there, too.
Re. Eastbourne, this site mentions specific quotes relalted to it:
http://www.verinhaottoni.com/diary/cultural/opera/107.html
It's one thing to repeat a myth, but another to make up precise quotes to reference it, so it has the ring of truth about it :P
Quote from: Lethe on July 30, 2008, 07:51:30 AM
Re. Eastbourne, this site mentions specific quotes relalted to it:
http://www.verinhaottoni.com/diary/cultural/opera/107.html
It's one thing to repeat a myth, but another to make up precise quotes to reference it, so it has the ring of truth about it :P
Thank you. :)
Quote from: Jezetha on July 30, 2008, 07:48:16 AM
I added originally: if you believe Wikipedia, that is.
Sorry I missed that; in any event,
Johan, I knew you of all people would not be naïve about wikipedia.
Quote from: Lethe on July 30, 2008, 07:51:30 AM
Re. Eastbourne, this site mentions specific quotes relalted to it:
http://www.verinhaottoni.com/diary/cultural/opera/107.html
It's one thing to repeat a myth, but another to make up precise quotes to reference it, so it has the ring of truth about it :P
If there were not gender issues,
Sara, I should say, you are the man!
Quote from: karlhenning on July 30, 2008, 07:43:11 AM
Does a wikipedia citation settle anything? Just asking for information.
Only one way to find out: let's see what wikipedia says about it..... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia)
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 30, 2008, 09:24:41 AM
Only one way to find out: let's see what wikipedia says about it..... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia)
;D
I note, Luke, that this article employs the phrase "good Samaritan," with all its implicit anti-Jewish bias ;D
Quote from: 71 dB on July 29, 2008, 10:56:17 AM
What is the purpose of these polls? The prove that Elgar is a mediocre composer at best?
The result does not chance anything, I still enjoy Elgar.
Me too! If nothing else, his Enigma variations and cello concerto guarantee his place in the pantheon.
I see that two other members also chose Handel since my post two days ago. (Who was the first in line for Handel?) Please PM me for "high-five" when you get the chance. (http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w149/skins0304/71a26d64.gif)
Quote from: Lethe on July 30, 2008, 07:51:30 AM
Re. Eastbourne, this site mentions specific quotes relalted to it:
http://www.verinhaottoni.com/diary/cultural/opera/107.html
It's one thing to repeat a myth, but another to make up precise quotes to reference it, so it has the ring of truth about it :P
The myth is that he wrote 'La Mer' in Eastbourne but the truth is that he merely polished the score there.
One of the 'Images' invokes the misty/foggy coast of England.
He seems to have had an affinity with Perfidious Albion which makes him English, or as good as, in my book, so, why isn't he on the list?
Handel is ???
Quote from: Hector on July 31, 2008, 05:53:11 AM
Handel is ???
Guess this poll is using the same rules as some Olympic athletes....only in reverse. ;D
Quote from: Hector on July 31, 2008, 05:53:11 AM
The myth is that he wrote 'La Mer' in Eastbourne but the truth is that he merely polished the score there.
That's part of the creative process, Hector. An unpolished
La Mer is an unfinished
La Mer.
So - Eastbourne it remains... ;)
Quote from: Hector on July 31, 2008, 05:53:11 AM
The myth is that he wrote 'La Mer' in Eastbourne but the truth is that he merely polished the score there.
One of the 'Images' invokes the misty/foggy coast of England.
He seems to have had an affinity with Perfidious Albion which makes him English, or as good as, in my book, so, why isn't he on the list?
Yes, and the piano preludes quote two national anthems - the British, fairly fully and boldly, and the French, in a fragmentary, allusive way. It's clear from this, too, that Debussy was a wanabe Englishman. ;D
Dvorak's 8th was known for years as his "English" symphony. Sadly, the Yanks have already grabbed him for their own.
Bax and Finzi, I suppose, but my "Other" vote is for Dowland!
I love Elgar, though. :)
Quote from: Brian on July 31, 2008, 05:52:42 PM
........... but my "Other" vote is for Dowland!
Nice call Brian.
RVW, Purcell, Elgar
Quote from: Brian on July 31, 2008, 05:52:42 PM
Bax and Finzi, I suppose, but my "Other" vote is for Dowland!
A composer whose work figures so dramatically in
The Sot-Weed Factor!
Quote from: Jezetha on July 31, 2008, 06:19:37 AM
That's part of the creative process, Hector. An unpolished La Mer is an unfinished La Mer.
So - Eastbourne it remains... ;)
I'll drink a pint of London Pride to that! ;)
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 31, 2008, 06:23:05 AM
Yes, and the piano preludes quote two national anthems - the British, fairly fully and boldly, and the French, in a fragmentary, allusive way. It's clear from this, too, that Debussy was a wanabe Englishman. ;D
I'd forgotten that.
Wasn't Beethoven given an English piano?
Which, clearly, makes him.... ;D
Quote from: eyeresist on July 31, 2008, 05:12:03 PM
Dvorak's 8th was known for years as his "English" symphony. Sadly, the Yanks have already grabbed him for their own.
I did not know that.
Then again, the best performances of this work on disc tend to be by British orchestras and/or conductors.
He, also, liked a drink, did Antonin, seeking out the emigre Czech drinking clubs in the USA when he was there.
Clearly, then, Tone's English! ;D
Quote from: Hector on August 05, 2008, 05:49:11 AM
I did not know that.
Then again, the best performances of this work on disc tend to be by British orchestras and/or conductors.
Really? Which performances do you have in mind. I can think of Colin Davis/Amsterdam, Dorati/LSO, Rowick/LSO, Kertesz/LSO. There is also Constantine Silvestri but I forget the orchestra. But in any case the LSO is pretty much a cosmopolitan orchestra that plays well for most conductors in pretty much the entire repertoire. I would say there are probably just as many good recordings of this work with British bands/conductors as with non-British.
Quote from: eyeresist on July 31, 2008, 05:12:03 PM
Dvorak's 8th was known for years as his "English" symphony. Sadly, the Yanks have already grabbed him for their own.
Whoever called this work the "English" symphony did not mean it as a compliment. It is a jab against the garden-variety English symphony of the time which are meandering, rhapsodic, and lacking in formal integrity or motific development.
Where did you get the idea that the Yanks grabbed him for our own, certainly not in the same way the British grabbed Handel as their own.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 05, 2008, 06:09:43 AM
Whoever called this work the "English" symphony did not mean it as a compliment. It is a jab against the garden-variety English symphony of the time which are meandering, rhapsodic, and lacking in formal integrity or motific development.
Where did you get the idea that the Yanks grabbed him for our own, certainly not in the same way the British grabbed Handel as their own.
Touchy :)
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 05, 2008, 06:09:43 AM
Really? Which performances do you have in mind. I can think of Colin Davis/Amsterdam, Dorati/LSO, Rowick/LSO, Kertesz/LSO. There is also Constantine Silvestri but I forget the orchestra. But in any case the LSO is pretty much a cosmopolitan orchestra that plays well for most conductors in pretty much the entire repertoire. I would say there are probably just as many good recordings of this work with British bands/conductors as with non-British.
Whoever called this work the "English" symphony did not mean it as a compliment. It is a jab against the garden-variety English symphony of the time which are meandering, rhapsodic, and lacking in formal integrity or motific development.
Where did you get the idea that the Yanks grabbed him for our own, certainly not in the same way the British grabbed Handel as their own.
All of them and more. Halle/Barbirolli, for example.
The "English" jibe seems to have rebounded as this is one of Dvorak's most melodic and sunniest of symphonies much liked by us English!
Quote from: Hector on August 06, 2008, 04:29:45 AM
The "English" jibe seems to have rebounded as this is one of Dvorak's most melodic and sunniest of symphonies much liked by us English!
Really? But the English aren't in the habit of writing sunny symphonies, for example those of Elgar, RWV, Brian.
I think Dvorak 8 was called English because it was first published there. I'd have to check, but I think it might also have been an English orchestral commission.
Regarding Dvorak's appropriation to those United States, I looked on Cafepress for a Dvorak T-shirt, and the best design prominenty featured the statue of liberty! It's often claimed that the 9th symphony was inspired not only by Antonin's visit to America but also by African American or Native American tunes - so it's basically a tone poem about the good ol' USA. We know that sketches for an unwritten opera on Hiawatha were incorporated into the inner movements, but otherwise there's little in the music to suggest it wasn't written in Bohemia. Also, the notion of Dvorak prominently borrowing folk tunes for his symphonies has no precedent. He incorporated a tune his sister-in-law loved into the cello concerto to commemorate her death, but I don't know of any other examples. Dvorak was abundant in original melodic invention, and had no need to incorporate "found" material as certain other nationalist composers did.
Really, the reason critical emphasis on the programmatic possibilities of the 9th bothers me is that the music itself is in a way overlooked or undervalued. I find it emotionally a very dark work (that final chord is chilling) and formally very interesting, and I wish these aspects would receive the greater emphasis.
Um... now back to those British composers!
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2008, 05:54:47 AM
Really? But the English aren't in the habit of writing sunny symphonies, for example those of Elgar, RWV, Brian.
The weather doesn't allow it.
Quote from: eyeresist on August 06, 2008, 09:41:05 PM
I think Dvorak 8 was called English because it was first published there. I'd have to check, but I think it might also have been an English orchestral commission.
Credit for one out of two ;)
The score is dedicated "To the Bohemian Academy of Emperor Franz Joseph for the Encouragement of Arts and Literature, in thanks for my election";
Dvořák's publisher, Simrock, offered him a scant 1000 marks for the score of the
Eighth (5000 less than he had received for the
Seventh, which was an instant success). The composer took that paltry offer as the publisher exercising his right of first refusal; and he sold the score instead to Novello in England.
And, when
Dvořák received an honorary Doctor of Music from Cambridge, he submitted the
Eighth as his obligatory exercise.
So there are English associations with the piece, but it was not English in origin, so to speak.
Indeed, it was the 7th which was commissioned in England, by the London Philharmonic Society.
Go, Sara, go! :)
*bingbingbingbingbing*
Well done, everyone, and thanks for playing. Collect your prizes at the door.
:D
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2008, 05:54:47 AM
Really? But the English aren't in the habit of writing sunny symphonies, for example those of Elgar, RWV, Brian.
Alwyn, German (upon whom the sun seems to have set), Sullivan, Stanford, Arnold and Simpson can all be quite sunny on occasions.
Quote from: Lethe on August 07, 2008, 08:32:44 AM
Indeed, it was the 7th which was commissioned in England, by the London Philharmonic Society.
Arguably, his greatest symphony.
So, there are two "English" symphonies, then!
Quote from: Hector on August 11, 2008, 04:00:10 AM
Alwyn, German (upon whom the sun seems to have set), Sullivan, Stanford, Arnold and Simpson can all be quite sunny on occasions.
Simpson? Sunny??
I am a huge admirer of Robert Simpson! His eleven symphonies and his string quartets are-in my opinion-major contributions to 20th century music!
But...although there are celestial allusions to be made I am not sure that 'sunny' is a word I would use :-\ :)
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 11, 2008, 04:13:28 AM
Simpson? Sunny??
I am a huge admirer of Robert Simpson! His eleven symphonies and his string quartets are-in my opinion-major contributions to 20th century music!
But...although there are celestial allusions to be made I am not sure that 'sunny' is a word I would use :-\ :)
Neither would I. Sunny Simpson?
Serious and
powerful are words that spring to
my mind.
Quote from: Jezetha on August 11, 2008, 04:19:54 AM
Sunny Simpson?
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 11, 2008, 04:13:28 AM
Simpson? Sunny??
According to the anonymous contributor to the Wikipedia entrance on Simpson's String Quartet No. 9 - written in 1982 in response to a request by the Delme String Quartet for a work to mark the dual occasion of the 20th anniversary of their quartet and the 250th anniversary of the birth of Haydn - variations, nos. 26 and 27 (out of the 32) "are sunny and warmly reflective". ;)
The full article at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._9_(Simpson)
One needs perhaps
magnifying sunglasses to detect the sunny side of Simpson, but there it is. 8)
Quote from: Christo on August 11, 2008, 04:32:12 AM
According to the anonymous contributor to the Wikipedia entrance on Simpson's String Quartet No. 9 - written in 1982 in response to a request by the Delme String Quartet for a work to mark the dual occasion of the 20th anniversary of their quartet and the 250th anniversary of the birth of Haydn - variations, nos. 26 and 27 (out of the 32) "are sunny and warmly reflective". ;)
The full article at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._9_(Simpson)
One needs perhaps magnifying sunglasses to detect the sunny side of Simpson, but there it is. 8)
Well, there you go indeed :)
I think that I need to go back and listen to Symphony No.9(my favourite Simpson symphony packed full of granitic grandeur) and remember to do so with my sunglasses firmly in place :)
Quote from: Christo on August 11, 2008, 04:32:12 AM
The full article at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._9_(Simpson)
Bloody hell - that amount of individual articles on seperate works for such an obscure composer is rare on WP. I hadn't thought of looking him up on it prior to this... Thanks for the link, I will have fun reading through it.
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 11, 2008, 04:38:32 AM
Well, there you go indeed :)
I think that I need to go back and listen to Symphony No.9(my favourite Simpson symphony packed full of granitic grandeur) and remember to do so with my sunglasses firmly in place :)
You could use these ones, with built-in MP3 player:
(http://www.digitalsunglass.co.nz/images/mp3BluetoothSunglass.jpg)
BTW: Simpson's Ninth is my favourite too, a truly impressive symphony. But I could never find anything similar among the other symphonies (I perhaps only really tried with nos. 1, 3, 8, 10). I'm afraid I asked you before, but lost the answer: where would you advise to go after the Ninth?
Ah, that is a difficult question since I love all Simpson's symphonies :)
However, No.2, scored for a relatively small orchestra(as in early Beethoven), has the most wonderful slow movement with a theme and thirteen variations in the form of a palindrome.
No.3 is the first Simpson symphony I ever heard(in the old Horenstein recording on Unicorn) and still impresses deeply.
No.4 is a really big symphony(46 minutes long) and, again, has a masterly slow movement although I do regret that Simpson revised it from Adagio to Andante. I remember recording the premiere in 1972 and being bowled over by the adagio; the revision to my mind takes away something of the movement's powerful beauty.
Nos. 5, 6 and 7 are each striking works, akin in some ways to the symphonies of Vagn Holmboe(whose music I know you admire!).
Hope that helps a little!
Quote from: Christo on August 11, 2008, 04:32:12 AM
One needs perhaps magnifying sunglasses to detect the sunny side of Simpson, but there it is. 8)
Nice one! (http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/glasses2.gif)
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 11, 2008, 05:11:59 AM
Nos. 5, 6 and 7 are each striking works, akin in some ways to the symphonies of Vagn Holmboe(whose music I know you admire!).
Oops, in that case, I really overlooked something! Many thanks for your answer! BTW, I also started with Horenstein's version of the Third, long ago, but missed all other ones untill I couldn't escape the special attention paid to Hyperion's release of the Ninth, in its time.
So, there it is: have to play all the symphonies by Aho and Simpson, this Autumn... :P That won't leave much time to tour you around the country in case you'll pay the two Johans and all others here a visit ... ;) ;)
:) :) :)
One should-of course-also note that Robert Simpson was a very keen amateur astronomer and, indeed, was elected a Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society. Several of the Hyperion CDs of his symphonies have cover pictures of the heavens, star systems etc. :)
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 11, 2008, 05:11:59 AM
Ah, that is a difficult question since I love all Simpson's symphonies :)
However, No.2, scored for a relatively small orchestra(as in early Beethoven), has the most wonderful slow movement with a theme and thirteen variations in the form of a palindrome.
No.3 is the first Simpson symphony I ever heard(in the old Horenstein recording on Unicorn) and still impresses deeply.
No.4 is a really big symphony(46 minutes long) and, again, has a masterly slow movement although I do regret that Simpson revised it from Adagio to Andante. I remember recording the premiere in 1972 and being bowled over by the adagio; the revision to my mind takes away something of the movement's powerful beauty.
Nos. 5, 6 and 7 are each striking works, akin in some ways to the symphonies of Vagn Holmboe(whose music I know you admire!).
Hope that helps a little!
That's the problem recommending Simpson symphonies in that you end up recommending all of them except, in your case, the 11th which I will recommend and the 4th for newcomers.
I think that he knocks spots off Holmboe.
Quote from: Hector on August 12, 2008, 05:41:34 AM
I think that he knocks spots off Holmboe.
Well, considering the wonderful chamber music of
Holmboe's that I've heard, this is extravagant praise!
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 11, 2008, 04:13:28 AM
Simpson? Sunny??
I am a huge admirer of Robert Simpson! His eleven symphonies and his string quartets are-in my opinion-major contributions to 20th century music!
But...although there are celestial allusions to be made I am not sure that 'sunny' is a word I would use :-\ :)
I did say " on occasions"!
I'm with you on his standing.
I voted for RVW, because his music means more to me than any composer in this poll, but I also love the music of the following English composers:
Frederick Delius
Gerald Finzi
Edmund Rubbra
Arnold Bax
Havergal Brian
William Alwyn
Benjamin Britten
John Ireland
Edward Elgar
William Walton
Malcolm Arnold
George Butterworth
Frank Bridge
Ernest Moeran
Hubert Parry
Granville Bantock
George Dyson
Herbert Howells
Never seen this poll before. Weird how so many people gave the wrong answer.
Quote from: Elgarian on June 27, 2010, 11:22:17 AM
Never seen this poll before. Weird how so many people gave the wrong answer.
:D Good one.
Interestly enough, I enjoy Elgar a lot, but I'm more moved by RVW's music and apparently so are many members of this forum, hence his winning this poll by a substantial margin.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2010, 11:25:15 AM
Interestly enough, I enjoy Elgar a lot, but I'm more moved by RVW's music and apparently so are many members of this forum, hence his winning this poll by a substantial margin.
Yes, but nearly all those votes are from two years ago. The folks here are much better educated now.
;)
Quote from: Elgarian on June 27, 2010, 11:27:09 AM
Yes, but nearly all those votes are from two years ago. The folks here are much better educated now.
;)
Hmmm...interesting. I guess people have snapped out of it by now. ;)
That said, I'm obviously a huge RVW fan and not because I think the other composers are bad. I just prefer his musical style, which to me, was Romantic and yet very Modern at the same time.
By the way, Elgar's "Cello Concerto," both of his symphonies, "Enigma Variations," "Violin Concerto," "In the South," among others are some of the most stirring works in all of English music. I love Elgar, so don't let my love for RVW confuse you. I'm well aware of Elgar's compositional prowess.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2010, 11:31:16 AM
Hmmm...interesting. I guess people have snapped out of it by now. ;)
That said, I'm obviously a huge RVW fan and not because I think the other composers are bad. I just prefer his musical style, which to me, was Romantic and yet very Modern at the same time.
Yes indeed. As you know, I'm something of a fan of his music myself.
Now if this were a poll about who was the best
cyclist, well,
then we'd see some changes, by golly!
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2010, 11:31:16 AM
don't let my love for RVW confuse you.
I'm determined to steer a straight course through any possible confusion on the matter.
Quote from: Elgarian on June 27, 2010, 11:22:17 AM
Never seen this poll before. Weird how so many people gave the wrong answer.
Six voters have given the right answer. Better than nothing. ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on June 28, 2010, 06:45:20 AM
Six voters have given the right answer. Better than nothing. ;)
7! Although, it was a near thing with Holst...
I am actually quite surprised for the massive number of votes for RVW. He's ok I guess, but he fails to move me in any way, with the exception of the English Folk Song Suite (which I like a lot). I'm not sure what people see in most of his music, as it never clicks with me despite repeated (and periodic) attempts. I have only one disc of his (with the aforementioned Folk Song Suite). I feel like I should like him (especially as I like the one piece for sure), but it just never seems to come off...
Quote from: ukrneal on June 28, 2010, 07:04:44 AM
I am actually quite surprised for the massive number of votes for RVW. He's ok I guess, but he fails to move me in any way, with the exception of the English Folk Song Suite (which I like a lot). I'm not sure what people see in most of his music, as it never clicks with me despite repeated (and periodic) attempts. I have only one disc of his (with the aforementioned Folk Song Suite). I feel like I should like him (especially as I like the one piece for sure), but it just never seems to come off...
Interesting because I feel the same way. I have to admit I haven't even heard many works by RVW because his music (at least what I have heard) seems to be so "neutral" and doesn't make me interested to explore more. Maybe so many like for that reason? I have noticed that most people tend to like art that is not taken "over the limit".
It goes without saying that to a VW fan the description of him as neutral doesn't fly - at the centre of his output are a group of works of enormous but generally quiet intensity and of a rare coherence in which style, technique, inspiration, imagery and so on are unified to a rare degree and result in music of what is to them (I"m one of 'them') an overwhelming strength of character and beauty. Just to put the opposite view...
Quote from: Luke on June 28, 2010, 07:49:17 AM
It goes without saying that to a VW fan the description of him as neutral doesn't fly - at the centre of his output are a group of works of enormous but generally quiet intensity and of a rare coherence in which style, technique, inspiration, imagery and so on are unified to a rare degree and result in music of what is to them (I"m one of 'them') an overwhelming strength of character and beauty. Just to put the opposite view...
I nodded my way through all this. Unquestionably so.
However, I've just realised that this poll was launched in July 2008, just a few weeks before the anniversary of RVW's death, when I seem to recall a not-surprisingly biggish splash:
Gramophone magazine did a Vaughan Williams special issue, for instance. So RVW was riding high at that time, and (without in the least suggesting that RVW deserves less) I think those celebrations may shed light on the curious imbalance of these poll results. I see that the phrasing of the question concerns your favourite
at this moment. There are times when I'd vote for RVW myself on that basis.
[You know my methods, Watson. Apply them.]
Quote from: Elgarian on June 28, 2010, 08:12:46 AM
However, I've just realised that this poll was launched in July 2008, just a few weeks before the anniversary of RVW's death
Also a time of no little anti-Elgar sentiment on the forum, which has changed in the past two years :)
I voted Vaughan Williams, however, I could have chosen Elgar. I like both nearly the same, although I've explored more of VW's music to this point.
Yes, Elgar has suffered through no fault of his music.
Quote from: Brahmsian on June 28, 2010, 09:34:29 AM
I voted Vaughan Williams, however, I could have chosen Elgar. I like both nearly the same, although I've explored more of VW's music to this point.
I too voted for Vaughan Williams; in a way it's a matter of volume. The Elgar concerti are high in my esteem, and I haven't heard a Vaughan Williams concerto to contest them; but I strongly prefer Vaughan Williams's symphonies to those of Elgar.
Quote from: LetheAlso a time of no little anti-Elgar sentiment on the forum, which has changed in the past two years
Yes, it has, thankfully. I think we know why.
Summer 2008 was also the time when the VW thread was at its most raging and interesting - I've just been rereading the central pages of the thread, from about no 30-ish to about number 37, so far (including my own huge posts to M which he chose to ignore - I wonder why I bother, but I'm quite proud of those posts rereading them, some of my better efforts....).
For me, that sequences of pages - I think it led on to the infamous wind-machine affair, in which M suddenly switched sides and started speaking in favour of VW once he realised there was potential to piss Scarpia off if he did so ;-) - was one of the highlights of the history of GMG.
I have no idea which British composer is my favorite since I don't listen to much from the composers of
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,--
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England
But if hard pressed I might choose Walton.
:D
Quote from: Luke on June 28, 2010, 09:39:03 AM
Yes, it has, thankfully. I think we know why.
Summer 2008 was also the time when the VW thread was at its most raging and interesting - I've just been rereading the central pages of the thread, from about no 30-ish to about number 37, so far (including my own huge posts to M which he chose to ignore - I wonder why I bother, but I'm quite proud of those posts rereading them, some of my better efforts....).
For me, that sequences of pages - I think it led on to the infamous wind-machine affair, in which M suddenly switched sides and started speaking in favour of VW once he realised there was potential to piss Scarpia off if he did so ;-) - was one of the highlights of the history of GMG.
Yes, I was wondering if you'd remember the famous wind-machine controversy. I had the impression that I had single-handedly driven you to quit the board in disgust. :-[
Anyway, when I listen to Vaughan Williams I always remember to skip #1 and #7, and I am in the clear. I think what is needed is a karaoke version of #7 in which the wind machine is omitted from the recording and you get to add your own wind part. ;D
I just discovered a British composer who sounds very interesting: George Benjamin.
He does not seem to have written much, but what I've heard appears on first impression to be excellent.
Quote from: Scarpia on June 28, 2010, 10:11:38 AM
Yes, I was wondering if you'd remember the famous wind-machine controversy. I had the impression that I had single-handedly driven you to quit the board in disgust. :-[
Lol - it wasn't you! As I remember it, it was really tedium with M's behaviour that drove me away, which was rooted 1) in his behaviour on that VW thread, and 2) in another notorious affair a couple of months later, over on my thread, with M's response to this post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,44.msg235058.html#msg235058) - Harmonicgate! That was when he told me that I shouldn't notate harmonics the way I did, and I had the temerity to show him plenty of examples of Ravel scores (and from other composer) doing precisely the same thing. Which kind of annoyed him, because he tended to want to use Ravel as an example of good orchestral and notational practice. He got a bit nasty, and then when he carried on in the VW thread again, I finally got a bit bored and thought 'I've had enough'. Came back as Sul G a few months later though, for a while.
Quote from: Scarpia on June 28, 2010, 10:11:38 AM
Anyway, when I listen to Vaughan Williams I always remember to skip #1 and #7, and I am in the clear. I think what is needed is a karaoke version of #7 in which the wind machine is omitted from the recording and you get to add your own wind part. ;D
No problem there. :D
Mercy! I'd nearly forgot aboput Harmonicgate!
Just been rereading it, too - fun, in retrospect, though not at the time, and even quite rewarding. Funny thing is, that it started with M making his little point, but actually that just set me off musing about notation, and I actually found it all quite thought-provoking and stimulating, and it led me to some interesting conclusions, and I even thanked him....but he wasn't happy that I disagreed with him and had the temerity to be able to back up my choices in detail and with examples from the repertoire, so wasn't long before he started with the stay-in-your-ivory-tower, ignore-me, I'm-just-a-poor-professional-bassist-of-vast-experience stuff, and - do you remember? - that thing about how you and I are self-proclaimed geniuses! Happy days!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 28, 2010, 11:25:53 AM
Mercy! I'd nearly forgot aboput Harmonicgate!
I seem to have missed harmonicgate entirely. :( I had a few dust-ups with M as well, but the place certainly is a bit dull without him. To bad he couldn't restrain himself sufficiently to maintain his posting privileges.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 28, 2010, 07:32:09 AM
Interesting because I feel the same way. I have to admit I haven't even heard many works by RVW because his music (at least what I have heard) seems to be so "neutral" and doesn't make me interested to explore more. Maybe so many like for that reason? I have noticed that most people tend to like art that is not taken "over the limit".
Oh lordy. ::) You have little familiarity with VW, but you assume he must be boring (neutral) and so many of us like him because we are sheep who are unable to deal with music that isn't boring. I suggest that if you are going to make such infuriating statements, you at least take the time to listen to Vaughan Williams first. >:D
Quote from: Luke on June 28, 2010, 11:35:24 AM
. . . and - do you remember? - that thing about how you and I are self-proclaimed geniuses! Happy days!
Cor, it's not every day one forgets that he's proclaimed himself a genius! ; )
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 28, 2010, 12:07:50 PM
Cor, it's not every day one forgets that he's proclaimed himself a genius! ; )
I thought you and M were so chummy. Wasn't there even a photo in which you looked like reunited twins?
Indeed those were the days. I think it would be true to suggest that he presented himself to Karl as a friend, but then promptly did his puff-adder act.
We were kept very busy then with all that nonsensical behaviour. It was due to those experiences that we modified our approach; so as to stop further such incidences dead in their tracks. At one time we bent over backwards to avoid altering a post; but experience taught us that there is no reasoning with some people and as soon as you see that, stop trying and use sanctions.
As someone wrote to me two days ago....it's only the internet!
Mike
Quote from: Franco on June 28, 2010, 09:39:27 AM
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England
Throw rotten tomatoes at me if you will, but coasting along the cycle track by the river this morning, with the warm sunlight glittering on the water, the dappled shade under the trees, and listening to the
Enigma Variations though my headphones as I pedalled, it seemed remarkably easy to think in terms of 'this blessed plot', etc.
Of course there are
other places where this isle is more septic than sceptred.
Quote from: Elgarian on June 28, 2010, 01:23:03 PMOf course there are other places where this isle is more septic than sceptred.
And, ahem, they weren't so thrilled with the sceptered land in Dublin, at the time. ???
Quote from: Scarpia on June 28, 2010, 01:36:14 PM
And, ahem, they weren't so thrilled with the sceptered land in Dublin, at the time. ???
Alas we don't have to look far to find septic examples, though my comment was more pastoral than political in intent.
Quote from: Elgarian on June 28, 2010, 02:15:49 PM
Alas we don't have to look far to find septic examples, though my comment was more pastoral than political in intent.
Yes. You have noted how WWI "knocked the stuffing" out of old Elgar, but it strikes me that the Easter Rising may have also also damaged his conception of noble old England and made him take a cynical view of the music he wrote to glory the empire. (I'm sure I learned a lot of this stuff at school, but it is sometimes embarrasing how much my knowledge of English history comes from the booklets that come with Hyperion CDs. :-[ I got more out of the disc of Bax chamber music than a lot of nice melodies.)
Quote from: Luke on June 28, 2010, 09:39:03 AM
Summer 2008 was also the time when the VW thread was at its most raging and interesting - I've just been rereading the central pages of the thread, from about no 30-ish to about number 37, so far (including my own huge posts to M which he chose to ignore - I wonder why I bother, but I'm quite proud of those posts rereading them, some of my better efforts....).
For me, that sequences of pages - I think it led on to the infamous wind-machine affair, in which M suddenly switched sides and started speaking in favour of VW once he realised there was potential to piss Scarpia off if he did so ;-) - was one of the highlights of the history of GMG.
I certainly enjoyed rereading it just now.
Quote from: Elgarian on June 27, 2010, 11:22:17 AM
Never seen this poll before. Weird how so many people gave the wrong answer.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 28, 2010, 06:45:20 AM
Six voters have given the right answer. Better than nothing. ;)
I am really confused? :o How can there be a right or wrong answer to
A British Composer Poll: Your favo(u)rite at this moment?It's all personal opinion, are you saying some people fibbed and didn't list their favorite at the moment of the poll?
As for me my favorite then and my favorite now remains
Gustav Holst as he is one of my very favorites even when other nationalities are included. I dearly love
The Planets, the Beni Mora Suite, the Japanese Suite and the two Military Band Suites and cannot imagine my life without them. :)
Quote from: Teresa on June 28, 2010, 03:49:20 PM
I am really confused? :o How can there be a right or wrong answer to A British Composer Poll: Your favo(u)rite at this moment?
It was a little joke, Teresa - such a
very little joke that it seems to have slipped under your radar.
I have shown my disdain for British music by voting for the German. 0:)
:D
Cold, Davey! je-je-je!
Quote from: DavidW on June 29, 2010, 06:43:05 AM
I have shown my disdain for British music by voting for the German. 0:)
:D
It's
Dunstable I feel sorry for.
Quote from: Elgarian on June 29, 2010, 08:20:46 AM
It's Dunstable I feel sorry for.
Yeah...even Henry got a few votes.
Sarge
And especially with 16 votes for Other.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 08:21:50 AM
Yeah...even Henry got a few votes.
More than that Holst tosser, Sarge ; )
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 29, 2010, 08:22:19 AM
And especially with 16 votes for Other.
It is amazing that Sir Rupert Other is getting so many votes. I don't have a single thing by him in my collection.
Sarge
Quote from: Scarpia on June 28, 2010, 11:55:36 AM
Oh lordy. ::) You have little familiarity with VW, but you assume he must be boring (neutral). I suggest that if you are going to make such infuriating statements, you at least take the time to listen to Vaughan Williams first. >:D
Well, it apparently didn't occur to you that the reason why I am not familiar with most works by RVW is because the ones I have heard sound "neutral" to me? There is too much music in the world to listen to everything. I choose interesting composers.
Enigma Variations was able to make me extremely interested about
Elgar in December 1996. The works by RVW I have heard are:
The Lark Ascending
Fantasia on Greenleaves
Symphonies Nos. 1 & 6
Henry the Fifth Overture
Hymn Prelude on RhosymedreI don't know if these works are indicative about what RVW has to offer but based on them I rate RVW on the same level with Sibelius who I don't care about that much either. The time/money I can spend on British composers are limited and I feel I am better off concentrating on Elgar, Handel, Purcell and Finzi.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 29, 2010, 08:33:18 AM
. . . I don't know if these works are indicative about what RVW has to offer but based on them I rate RVW on the same level with Sibelius who I don't care about that much either.
Thank you. The defense rests, Your Honor.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 08:26:37 AM
It is amazing that Sir Rupert Other is getting so many votes. I don't have a single thing by him in my collection.
Same here, as far as my
main collection is concerned, but he would be strongly represented in my
alternative collection, if I had one. His
Introduction and Alter Ego for Strings would rarely be out of my second-best substitute CD player, I think, along with his elusive but unforgettable
Somebodys Else's Symphony.
Anyone knows that Sir Rupert's music was really composed by his sister, Lady Oona Other.
Quote from: Elgarian on June 29, 2010, 08:36:57 AM
Same here, as far as my main collection is concerned, but he would be strongly represented in my alternative collection, if I had one. His Introduction and Alter Ego for Strings would rarely be out of my second-best substitute CD player, I think, along with his elusive but unforgettable Somebodys Else's Symphony.
I have a recording of the his
Introduction and Alter Ego for Strings by
Various Artists, is that the one you have? Can say enough about it.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 29, 2010, 08:33:18 AM
I rate RVW on the same level with Sibelius who I don't care about that much either.
Let's check that out.
On the RVW side: sea, fields, hills and valleys, cowpats, The War (s), folksy stuff. Total points 372.
On the Sibelius side: Snow, pines, wood nymphs, Finland, more snow, cold winds, even more snow. Total points 372.5.
So Snow Fetishists are better off with Sibelius, while Young Men who have just come back from the War and are Not Recognised by the Maidens they left Behind among the Green Fields of Home, had better stick with RVW. Otherwise, there's not much in it.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 29, 2010, 08:33:18 AM
Well, it apparently didn't occur to you that the reason why I am not familiar with most works by RVW is because the ones I have heard sound "neutral" to me? There is too much music in the world to listen to everything. I choose interesting composers. Enigma Variations was able to make me extremely interested about Elgar in December 1996. The works by RVW I have heard are:
The Lark Ascending
Fantasia on Greenleaves
Symphonies Nos. 1 & 6
Henry the Fifth Overture
Hymn Prelude on Rhosymedre
I don't know if these works are indicative about what RVW has to offer but based on them I rate RVW on the same level with Sibelius who I don't care about that much either. The time/money I can spend on British composers are limited and I feel I am better off concentrating on Elgar, Handel, Purcell and Finzi.
I have no objection to your comment that you found Vaughan Williams "neutral." However, looking at your original comment.
QuoteI have to admit I haven't even heard many works by RVW because his music (at least what I have heard) seems to be so "neutral" and doesn't make me interested to explore more. Maybe so many like for that reason? I have noticed that most people tend to like art that is not taken "over the limit".
The highlighted part basically says, "since I don't like Vaughan Williams it must be boring, and people who passionately like it must be cretins who are not as smart as me and are unable to deal with music that isn't boring." This is the sort of passive-aggressive insult that seems to have driven many people on this board to hate Elgar, until Elgarian showed up.
Put in a way that you may find more comfortable, we're very sensitive about the fact that you are so much smarter than the rest of us, so you shouldn't be rubbing our nose in it so often. ::)
Quote from: Franco on June 29, 2010, 08:42:32 AM
I have a recording of the his Introduction and Alter Ego for Strings by Various Artists, is that the one you have? Can say enough about it.
Yes it is, and he would be one of my favourite alternative conductors, if I had any. Sir Various Artists really knows how to bring out the essentially lukewarm, 'not quite present' character of Other's music, don't you think?
Strange how his music is always performed in the room next door, never in the room you occupy.
Shy guy.
Mike
Quote from: Elgarian on June 29, 2010, 08:56:26 AM
Yes it is, and he would be one of my favourite alternative conductors, if I had any. Sir Various Artists really knows how to bring out the essentially lukewarm, 'not quite present' character of Other's music, don't you think?
Lukewarm may be a tad too strong, IMO, but I can understand why you'd say that. I may be confusing them with a different group, but I think there is
The Other Quartet, formed to play his chamber string works.
Somebody said they felt sorry for Dunstable. I don't see why.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2010, 09:02:33 AM
Strange how his music is always performed in the room next door, never in the room you occupy.
You're right, Mike. It's what makes Other the genius he might not have been if he'd been Somebody Else: I love the way he writes music to be played in the background in such a way as to force the listener to almost ignore it, so that it's near-absence becomes effectively a not-quite-presence. In performance terms, only Sir Various Artists really understands this, I feel.
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2010, 09:14:27 AM
Somebody said they felt sorry for Dunstable. I don't see why.
But that just makes it worse.
Really good background music is very hard to find, or write for that matter. I can't help but feel that Other is generally underrated, and that's who I voted for.
Quote from: Franco on June 29, 2010, 09:07:17 AM
I think there is The Other Quartet, formed to play his chamber string works.
Yes, though my understanding is that they've had little success so far, being unable to discover exactly how the string should be fastened to the chamber in order to play the works. Even though no one has ever heard them, his eighty-three
Concertos for Chamber String would have been vaguely definitive, if it had been possible to play them properly. The usual substitution of a Bongo drum for the single chamber string has not generally been successful in my view.
Quote from: Franco on June 29, 2010, 09:23:02 AM
Really good background music is very hard to find, or write for that matter. I can't help but feel that Other is generally underrated, and that's who I voted for.
I voted for Other also even though I own not a bit of his music, and am fairly certain I've never heard any (although reading about his style in the last few posts it's possible I've heard him subliminally at cocktail parties, perhaps wedged in between movements of the Four Seasons).
Sarge
Wedged in between floors in a stuck lift perhaps.
Mike
Quote from: Franco on June 29, 2010, 09:23:02 AM
I can't help but feel that Other is generally underrated, and that's who I voted for.
Indeed. What else could you have done, given the lack of alternatives?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 09:32:38 AM
it's possible I've heard him subliminally at cocktail parties, perhaps wedged in between movements of the Four Seasons.
Exactly. The fiendishly clever aspect of his work is that you
thought you were really listening to the Four Seasons.
This is the best poll ever, by the way.
Quote from: Elgarian on June 29, 2010, 09:38:05 AM
Exactly. The fiendishly clever aspect of his work is that you thought you were really listening to the Four Seasons.
:o :o :o
Perhaps I'm listening to him
now! --even though I don't hear any music playing. Is Other
that subtle?
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 09:41:02 AM
:o :o :o
Perhaps I'm listening to him now! --even though I don't hear any music playing. Is Other that subtle?
Sarge
I would say so, OTOH, I am listening right now to Pierre Boulez and there is no Other there.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 09:41:02 AM
Perhaps I'm listening to him now! --even though I don't hear any music playing. Is Other that subtle?
Would you believe that there are some denigrators of Other's genius who believe that those pregnant lukewarm silences you hear are merely the result of having the CD player switched off? Ha!
Cage learned so much from him. There was going to be publication of a book of the correspondence between them; but it has never emerged.
Mike
Cage wrote to Others all the time.
I gather that as you would expect it was laugh out loud stuff; but seemingly lost to us.
:(
Mike
Oh, I've cast a pall on the thread . . . .
Karl, That rumour that his sister wrote the works is a fallacy. BTW, did you know that her middle name was Ann?
Mike
Quote from: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 08:52:03 AM
The highlighted part basically says, "since I don't like Vaughan Williams it must be boring, and people who passionately like it must be cretins who are not as smart as me and are unable to deal with music that isn't boring."
You have your interpretation of my text but I didn't mean that. What I meant was that people are different. Some like apples, some like oranges.
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2010, 10:38:42 AM
Karl, That rumour that his sister wrote the works is a fallacy. BTW, did you know that her middle name was Ann?
Mike
Hah!
Quote from: 71 dB on June 29, 2010, 10:39:58 AM
You have your interpretation of my text but I didn't mean that. What I meant was that people are different. Some like apples, some like oranges.
Sorry if I misunderstood.
Quote from: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 10:40:48 AM
Sorry if I misunderstood.
No problem. Someday even I may start enjoying RVW's "neutral" music but for now I am interested about many other things...
What business have you interrupting the absurdity of this thread with relevent material?
Mike
Interesting that Britten is out-polling Handel.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 29, 2010, 10:43:27 AM
No problem. Someday even I may start enjoying RVW's "neutral" music but for now I am interested about many other things...
Well, if you think the 6th symphony of VW is "neutral" I'd be afraid to hear music which is not "neutral."
Not sure I would regard Handel as an 'English' composer. So, I would never vote for him in such a poll. He was a composer who worked extensively in England.....was Stravinsky an American composer?
No!
Mike
Edit: I have just looked back to see who construced this poll. Of course!
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2010, 10:55:09 AM
Not sure I would regard Handel as an 'English' composer. So, I would never vote for him in such a poll. He was a composer who worked extensively in England.....was Stravinsky an American composer?
No!
Well, technically, after he became a naturalized citizen...
Yes, but it is a technicality really. He was European, he absorbed so many influences. I wonder if in Italy anyone regards him as an Italian composer?....Again, no! He was not born with olive oil in his veins, so that would be an end to that.
How about Menotti: Italian or American...perhaps it depends on whether you are an American and whether you like his music.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2010, 11:01:15 AM
Yes, but it is a technicality really. He was European, he absorbed so many influences. I wonder if in Italy anyone regards him as an Italian? composer....again, No! He was not born with olive oil in his veins, so that would be an end to that.
How about Menotti: Italian or American...perhaps it depends on whether you are an American and whether you like his music.
Mike
The Italians can have him ;D
I think I agree with you...about Handel, about Stravinsky, and any other composer who chose, or was forced to live outside his native land. Stravinsky will always be a Russian composer...not French, not American. On the other hand, certain works of Handel are so quintessentially "English" (Messiah, the Fireworks, the Water Music) I can understand why some would consider him an English composer.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 11:11:40 AM
On the other hand, certain works of Handel are so quintessentially "English" (Messiah, the Fireworks, the Water Music) I can understand why some would consider him an English composer.
I was wondering if a composer from the 17th century could have much in common with a composer of the 21st century, even if from the same country to constitute a national "school" spanning several centuries? Several pages back (before all that Other business) I asked about George Benjamin, sometimes referred to as the "English Carter" - he is worlds away from Purcell, and yet, he is British.
What is your idea of
quintessentially "English" - and has this quality existed unchanged from the time of Handel to today?
Quote from: Franco on June 29, 2010, 11:16:24 AM
What is your idea of quintessentially "English" - and has this quality existed unchanged from the time of Handel to today?
My idea of quintessential English music? Simply music that's associated strongly with England ;) Has there been a continuous "school" or style? No, but a national influence over the centuries is apparent, I think. VW and Tallis, for example.
Sarge
I don't see Handel as any more English than Haydn. He went where the commercial possibilities of his music were greatest. Early in his life he wrote lots of quintessentially Italian music in Italy, then he wrote Italian music in England, then it became impossible to perform opera so he started writing oratorio. I don't find any of it terribly English.
For me English musics is synonymous with the early to middle 20th century and is characterized by opulent orchestration, a certain majestic or ceremonial quality, a certain academic quality of writing for strings, salted with some British pastoralism. Elgar, Walton, Vaughan Williams, Finzi, Howells, etc, not necessarily in that order. Britten doesn't strike me as being so British.
What do you mean that 'Other business'?
I don't think English....or just possibly British, music can be boxed up in quite the easy way that people claim of the the 'pastoralists' for instance. There has been a strain of lyricism, but English music was not brought about in a vacuum. For instance Britten initially was very influenced by the likes of Ravel. Elgar has more than echos of Wagner and Strauss.
Does Holst's Planets sound English? I would guess Austro/German. Though other of his output does have that supposedly characteristic pastoral strain along with Finzi, Butterworth and some of Vaughn Williams, also Delius. Though again, I don't think of Delius as English. Of German extraction he travelled in the US where he was influenced and lived for years in France. I think his music has a slightly exotic tinge to it, despite the many miniatures that inhabit programmes and discs of 'English' music.
I can't really hear much Handel in subsequent composers, well perhaps Parry, but to my ears he is more like the Mendelssohn of St Paul in his vocal works, dull. Apart from Britten and Tippet I am not aware of any who really used Purcell.
Mention of Tippet...listen to him in isolation....does not sound 'English' to me.
John Tavener, the mystic, which is perhaps a sub strain, but his music is decidedly not English in sound. McMillan, McConachy, Birtwhistle, Aides....I don't see a 'school' there.
No doubt Luke and Elgarian can correct my half digested thoughts. I read in a programme about how heavily one contemporary composer was influenced by Brahms in the piece I was to hear. I could not detect that at all; so there may well be connections and influences that my tin ear cannot pick up on.
Sorry I can't give a sensible answer specifically about George Benjamin. I don't know his music at all.
Mike
Quote from: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 11:34:51 AM
I don't see Handel as any more English than Haydn. He went where the commercial possibilities of his music were greatest. Early in his life he wrote lots of quintessentially Italian music in Italy, then he wrote Italian music in England, then it became impossible to perform opera so he started writing oratorio. I don't find any of it terribly English
The Messiah has a text from the King James bible. You don't think that sounds English? (Well, he could be an American Baptist fundamentalist composer, too, I suppose ;D )
Seriously, there is a huge difference between Haydn and Handel. Haydn stayed in England for several months. Handel lived in England for 47 years. He even changed his name from Haendel to Handel.
As I said, though, I still think of him as a German composer but I can understand why he's embraced by some as an English composer.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 11:54:02 AM
The Messiah has a text from the King James bible. You don't think that sounds English? (Well, he could be an American Baptist fundamentalist composer, too, I suppose ;D )
The words, yes, but I don't hear the music as being particularly English. Similar to Britten, for me, it is obvious he's English when he's setting one of those extremely English texts. Liberated from that, he is very cosmopolitan with many influences.
Sarge, You mentioned The Messiah as being quintessentially English. I have a version in German, it sure does not then sound English. Mendelssohn's Elijah in English sounds more English.
Was there something in the UK on which Handel built the style of English oratorio? I thought it was just 'Handel', as you indicated, moving from the Italian style to a non-Italian style with English words....but I did not know it was other than Handel's development of his ideas, and I can't see where an influence in the UK came from.
I know he was in a general sense influenced by the English choral tradition of Tallis and Byrd, but his choral music does not sound like theirs, it is a different beast. His oratorio has nothing of that church liturgical feel to it of those earlier choral writers.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2010, 12:06:14 PM
Sarge, You mentioned The Messiah as being quintessentially English. I have a version in German, it sure does not then sound English. Mendelssohn's Elijah in English sounds more English.
As I said to Franco, English music is, to me, music that is associated with England. It's that simple. Elgar's First Symphony was embraced by the Germans (conductor Hans Richter, for example) because I'm sure they heard the Germanic influence. But it doesn't sound at all German to me. That symphony is quintessentially English. All Elgar's music is even though he could not have written any of it if he'd been unaware of what was happening in Germany and Austria.
I understand the concept of "national music" didn't really exist in the 18th century. (Mozart was German but wrote Italian operas. He had to fight to get his
Singspiele produced.) Nonetheless, the Messiah, Fireworks, Water Music are so closely associated with historical events in England I have a hard time thinking of them as anything but English works.
Sarge
I won't keep banging on about this, but the Water Music was written, in part, as a reconciliation between Handel and the Elector of Hanover, (Handel's former employer and who he absconded from), once he became none other than George I and who did not really speak English. To an extent the Court became a German enclave. The Fireworks Music was written for George II, also born outside of the UK.....but he at least did speak English.
Mike
I just spent half an hour writing a post of enormous wit, insight, and wisdom - possibly the best post I've ever written, completely nailing every conceivable problem concerning Englishness in music, painting, tap-dancing, and the development of stamp albums. I clicked 'Preview'. I needed to change a typo. By accident I clicked on the 'preview' text instead of the text in the response box. The post vanished in that single click, never to return.
I am shaken to the core. The loss to the world is irreparable. The loss to me is catastrophic: it's made me feel slightly neutral about Vaughan Williams!
Does that mean all my half baked efforts stand?
Yeah! Result!
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2010, 01:16:59 PM
I won't keep banging on about this, but the Water Music was written, in part, as a reconciliation between Handel and the Elector of Hanover, (Handel's former employer and who he absconded from), once he became none other than George I and who did not really speak English. To an extent the Court became a German enclave. The Fireworks Music was written for George II, also born outside of the UK.....but he at least did speak English.
Mike
Sure, sure, Mike, but you know, all that Kraut and Frog influence is what makes you so English ;D
Sarge
I'm Scots >:D
Mike
Quote from: Elgarian on June 29, 2010, 01:24:11 PM
I just spent half an hour writing a post of enormous wit, insight, and wisdom - possibly the best post I've ever written, completely nailing every conceivable problem concerning Englishness in music, painting, tap-dancing, and the development of stamp albums. I clicked 'Preview'. I needed to change a typo. By accident I clicked on the 'preview' text instead of the text in the response box. The post vanished in that single click, never to return.
Son of a bitch...I hate when that happens (and it happens quite often actually...I wish the software had a recovery button).
QuoteI am shaken to the core. The loss to the world is irreparable. The loss to me is catastrophic: it's made me feel slightly neutral about Vaughan Williams!
:D I have to say now the loss of your post was totally worth it...just for that last sentence ;D
Sarge
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2010, 01:31:39 PM
I'm Scots >:D
Mike
I'm American. Scots, Irish, Welsh, English....all the same to me ;D
Seriously, I take back the Kraut influence but your Froggishness is
really apparent now.
Sarge
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2010, 01:26:32 PM
Does that mean all my half baked efforts stand?
Yeah! Result!
Not so fast, Buster!Blah blah blah William Blake blah blah Parry blah blah Brahms (pish tosh) blah blah Elgar blah blah cowpat blah blah stamp album blah blah Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers blah blah Pre-Raphaelite landscape blah blah roast beef and Yorkshire pudding blah blah characteristic cadences derived from ancient blah blah BLAH!
There. What do you say to THAT!? Eh?
Quote from: Elgarian on June 29, 2010, 01:41:03 PM
Not so fast, Buster!
Blah blah blah William Blake blah blah Parry blah blah Brahms (pish tosh) blah blah Elgar blah blah cowpat blah blah stamp album blah blah Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers blah blah Pre-Raphaelite landscape blah blah roast beef and Yorkshire pudding blah blah characteristic cadences derived from ancient blah blah BLAH!
There. What do you say to THAT!? Eh?
You're saying Windflower doesn't come into it?
Yes the Auld Alliance.....but that was more about trading than bloodlines.
I have no idea what I have in the old bones other than Scots and English. No doubt there must be a right old mix, or to quote the playright....somewhere along the line a bitch got over the wall.
Mike
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 01:36:42 PM
your Froggishness is really apparent now.
Purcell quite often sounds French-ish to me (ignoring the language, I mean - just the music). And when Christie and Les Arts Florissants do Purcell, it sounds French pretty much all the time.
Quote from: Elgarian on June 29, 2010, 01:41:03 PM
Not so fast, Buster!
Blah blah blah William Blake blah blah Parry blah blah Brahms (pish tosh) blah blah Elgar blah blah cowpat blah blah stamp album blah blah Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers blah blah Pre-Raphaelite landscape blah blah roast beef and Yorkshire pudding blah blah characteristic cadences derived from ancient blah blah BLAH!
There. What do you say to THAT!? Eh?
Yes, you trounced me, as usual. I am totally humiliated. Can I come sit at your feet and learn all the Blah.......and the pish tosh?
YOS
Mike
Quote from: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 01:41:46 PM
You're saying Windflower doesn't come into it?
I'm glad you asked that. Behind the obvious main points of my post, two other themes 'run', but are never stated explicitly. These are the Enigpompenstance Windflower themes, subtly contained within the blahs; and the closing cadenza of blahs (which some people think, mistakenly, make the post too long) is really a battle for resolution between them, summing up the whole point of the post. Simple really.
You see: Elgarian is a Master; I am just not sure what of. 8)
Mike
Quote from: Elgarian on June 29, 2010, 01:58:09 PM
I'm glad you asked that. Behind the obvious main points of my post, two other themes 'run', but are never stated explicitly. These are the Enigpompenstance Windflower themes, subtly contained within the blahs; and the closing cadenza of blahs (which some people think, mistakenly, make the post too long) is really a battle for resolution between them, summing up the whole point of the post. Simple really.
I see. Now I know how classical scholars feel when they remember that the play that came in first, over Oedipus Rex, is lost to posterity, or recall the burning of the library at Alexandria.
However, as long as we have broached the subject of Windflower, do you agree with those who claim that Elgar arrived at that name because of Miss Wortley's infamous flatulence?
Quote from: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 02:04:12 PM
However, as long as we have broached the subject of Windflower, do you agree with those who claim that Elgar arrived at that name because of Miss Wortley's infamous flatulence?
All my romantic illusions about the Violin Concerto have now been shattered.
Sarge
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2010, 01:45:20 PM
Can I come sit at your feet and learn all the Blah.......and the pish tosh?
Be warned. Mastery of the pish tosh requires 24 hours of tap-dancing to Parry's
I Was Glad while simultaneously organising an album of postage stamps based on a Yorkshire Pudding theme. It's not for everyone.
Quote from: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 02:04:12 PM
do you agree with those who claim that Elgar arrived at that name because of Miss Wortley's infamous flatulence?
Ah, now
Miss Wortley was someone else, renowned for her digestive difficulties; but
Mrs Wortley (the Windflower) was noted, I believe for never having passed wind in her entire life.
There you go Sarge. All's well again.
Quote from: Elgarian on June 29, 2010, 02:16:25 PM
Ah, now Miss Wortley was someone else, renowned for her digestive difficulties; but Mrs Wortley (the Windflower) was noted, I believe for never having passed wind in her entire life.
If that's true, the Kennedy's interpretation is all wrong. 8)
Quote from: Elgarian on June 29, 2010, 02:16:25 PM
Ah, now Miss Wortley was someone else, renowned for her digestive difficulties; but Mrs Wortley (the Windflower) was noted, I believe for never having passed wind in her entire life.
There you go Sarge. All's well again.
Whew...
Quote from: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 02:17:52 PM
If that's true, the Kennedy's interpretation is all wrong. 8)
That's what I've always insisted. But would anyone listen?
Quote from: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 02:17:52 PM
If that's true, the Kennedy's interpretation is all wrong. 8)
I wanna bitch slap you, Scarpia, but I'm laughing too hard.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 02:19:46 PM
I wanna bitch slap you, Scarpia, but I'm laughing too hard.
From these heights, there is no place to go but down. ;D
Quote from: DavidW on June 29, 2010, 06:43:05 AM
I have shown my disdain for British music by voting for the German. 0:)
:D
British, American, Russian, Finnish, Swedish and Latin American are my favorite musical nationalities. I'm not a big fan of German music except for "some" Richard Wagner instrumental excerpts from his operas, Richard Strauss' tone poems and most everything by Kurt Weill although someone told me Kurt Weill doesn't really count as German since he is Jewish. :)
Quote from: 71 dB on June 29, 2010, 08:33:18 AM
Well, it apparently didn't occur to you that the reason why I am not familiar with most works by RVW is because the ones I have heard sound "neutral" to me? There is too much music in the world to listen to everything. I choose interesting composers. Enigma Variations was able to make me extremely interested about Elgar in December 1996. The works by RVW I have heard are:
The Lark Ascending
Fantasia on Greenleaves
Symphonies Nos. 1 & 6
Henry the Fifth Overture
Hymn Prelude on Rhosymedre
I don't know if these works are indicative about what RVW has to offer but based on them I rate RVW on the same level with Sibelius who I don't care about that much either. The time/money I can spend on British composers are limited and I feel I am better off concentrating on Elgar, Handel, Purcell and Finzi.
My favorite work by Elgar is
Falstaff – Symphonic Study in C minor, Op.68. I am not a fan of
Enigma Variations though.
My favorite by RVW is
The Wasps: Aristophanic Suite which I find quite beautiful and exciting. I also love the Folk Song Suite.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 01:36:42 PM
I'm American. Scots, Irish, Welsh, English....all the same to me ;D
Sarge
I too am a natural born American however I do have a very varied bloodline.
From my Father's side: English, Irish, Black Dutch and Cherokee Indian
From my Mother's side: French, Jewish, Irish and Dutch.
When we asked our Father what Black Dutch means he said our ancestors were likely Germans living in Holland as they have darker skin. However when I looked up Black Dutch I discovered the designation is often used to hide Jewish, Spanish or Negro ancestry. Doesn't matter to me, I just consider myself a cosmopolitan American. :)
Quote from: Teresa on June 29, 2010, 03:32:11 PM
....although someone told me Kurt Weill doesn't really count as German since he is Jewish.....
?? He was German, and he was Jewish. One can be both. Were Gershwin, Copland and Bernstein (for instance) not American because they were Jews? Finzi not English because of his Jewish ancestry?
Quote from: Luke on June 29, 2010, 10:12:36 PM
?? He was German, and he was Jewish. One can be both. Were Gershwin, Copland and Bernstein (for instance) not American because they were Jews? Finzi not English because of his Jewish ancestry?
Thanks, that is what I thought too, perhaps this person was an anti-semite?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 01:36:42 PM
I'm American. Scots, Irish, Welsh, English....all the same to me ;D
Yup = schedule on NPR classical lite. ;D <ducks!> >:D Well Teresa might not have figured it out, but I'm kidding around I like some British music, I'm just not an enthusiast. :)
Quote from: Teresa on June 29, 2010, 03:40:28 PM
My favorite work by Elgar is Falstaff – Symphonic Study in C minor, Op.68. I am not a fan of Enigma Variations though.
Falstaff and
Enigma Variations don't belong to my absolutely favorite
Elgar (
The Apostles is probably my favorite).
Quote from: Teresa on June 29, 2010, 03:40:28 PMMy favorite by RVW is The Wasps: Aristophanic Suite which I find quite beautiful and exciting. I also love the Folk Song Suite.
I listened the 10 minutes long opening track of that piece on Spotify (from the big RVW EMI box) but it sounded the same "neutral RVW" to me. Actually I was reminded how I am turned off by RVW's tendency to incorporate very strong folk influences in his music. That's the (unwanted) color of RVW for me.
Quote from: 71 dB on July 01, 2010, 06:33:39 AM
neutral RVW
It is of course often difficult to understand what it is that turns others off about the music we love, but in the case of RVW, and looking at the (quite strange) list of pieces that you've listened to, I wouldn't sleep easy without recommending that you try the
Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis. I've always personally compared it with Elgar's
Introduction and Allegro for Strings, and if you, like me, have been haunted by the latter for a lifetime, then I would have thought it likely you might respond positively to the former also.
Quote from: Elgarian on July 01, 2010, 07:09:30 AM
. . . I wouldn't sleep easy without recommending that you try the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis.
A piece which shines even brighter in live performance, BTW!
Quote from: 71 dB on July 01, 2010, 06:33:39 AM
I was reminded how I am turned off by RVW's tendency to incorporate very strong folk influences in his music.
Which is one of the reasons most of us love VW: that haunting folk aspect. Although I'm an American, British folk music is part of our cultural heritage too. I wonder if that foreign sound (foreign to non-Brits and Americans) is a stubbling block for many, not just you, and a reason his music doesn't seem to travel well (excepting, perhaps, the
Tallis Fantasia).
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 01, 2010, 07:23:40 AM
Which is one of the reasons most of us love VW: that haunting folk aspect.
Yes, I am aware to that but everybody don't love folk music.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 01, 2010, 07:23:40 AM
Which is one of the reasons most of us love VW: that haunting folk aspect.
Not in my case. I stay clear of it. My favorite Vaughan Williams is the harmonical inventive, angular stuff, mostly the later symphonies, including the 4th and 6th. Some of the spiritual sounding things, like the Tallis fantasy and the 5th symphony also attract me. The folky stuff tends to bore me to tears.
I'm not a huge fan of RVW, he is alright, and some of his stuff is pretty good. I think I would take the best of Elgar over him.
Quote from: 71 dB on July 01, 2010, 07:47:26 AM
but everybody don't love folk music.
This is precisely why I recommended the
Tallis Fantasia.
Quote from: Scarpia on July 01, 2010, 07:52:29 AM
Not in my case. I stay clear of it. My favorite Vaughan Williams is the harmonical inventive, angular stuff, mostly the later symphonies, including the 4th and 6th. Some of the spiritual sounding things, like the Tallis fantasy and the 5th symphony also attract me. The folky stuff tends to bore me to tears.
I think it depends how you classify 'folky stuff', because I would say that Tallis fantasy and the 5th symphony contain plenty of folksong-related stuff (and there's that tune in the 6th, too, which might as well be a folksong). But these rather timeless folksong-like lines are of a different order to the sort of jaunty folksong found in the Folk Song Suite, which I too could happily live without.
Quote from: Luke on July 01, 2010, 07:57:40 AM
I think it depends how you classify 'folky stuff', because I would say that Tallis fantasy and the 5th symphony contain plenty of folksong-related stuff (and there's that tune in the 6th, too, which might as well be a folksong). But these rather timeless folksong-like lines are of a different order to the sort of jaunty folksong found in the Folk Song Suite, which I too could happily live without.
You're exactly right, and I wanted to say something similar myself, though in this particular instance, the notion that the
Tallis is folk-influenced might well have put 71dB off, and I was worried that he'd be misled by that, because there's nothing jaunty and folksy about it.
Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that Elgar said sometime, somewhere, to somebody: 'I
am folk music' or some such. Not that I ever knew what he meant by it.
Quote from: Luke on July 01, 2010, 07:57:40 AM
I think it depends how you classify 'folky stuff', because I would say that Tallis fantasy and the 5th symphony contain plenty of folksong-related stuff (and there's that tune in the 6th, too, which might as well be a folksong). But these rather timeless folksong-like lines are of a different order to the sort of jaunty folksong found in the Folk Song Suite, which I too could happily live without.
Well, I don't include pieces in my dislike which simply include folk-like melodies that are subsequently subjected to symphonic development. That is something that turns up in the music of nearly all significant composers (landler's in Mahler, occasional echos of country dances in the minuets and trios of Mozart, or in the scherzi of Bruckner). But "In Fen Country," "Dives and Lazarus," Norfolk Rhapsody, Fantasia on Greensleeves, that stuff bores me to tears.
Quote from: Elgarian on July 01, 2010, 07:56:52 AM
This is precisely why I recommended the Tallis Fantasia.
Okay! Thanks. ;)
Quote from: Elgarian on July 01, 2010, 08:02:37 AM
You're exactly right, and I wanted to say something similar myself, though in this particular instance, the notion that the Tallis is folk-influenced might well have put 71dB off, and I was worried that he'd be misled by that, because there's nothing jaunty and folksy about it.
Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that Elgar said sometime, somewhere, to somebody: 'I am folk music' or some such. Not that I ever knew what he meant by it.
I think the overwhelming beauty and strength....and depth, if that word is safe to use today (I don't use it often, I think my quota is still fairly full)....of the Tallis Fantasia, over and above the note-by-note ravishingness of it all, lies in the juxtaposition of two worlds, and two types of exisiting in relation to those worlds. There is the church, with the history, the humanity, the complexity that come with it, and there is the open field, the open sky. There is homophonic quasi-choral writing, false-related chords expressing doubt and duality and what it is to be human, and there are free-flowing, rhythmically unfettered, modal, polyphonic lines, as natural and as timeless as the birds in the trees, but carrying the inflections of the most ancient folksong at their core. No value judgement is implied between the two, either, to my ear. To me, the point in the score where the first gives way to the second is one of the simplest and most moving things in VW's music. As I said on the VW thread, wow, 2 years ago now, one of the most impressive things about him as a composer is that he understand the potency and the associative complexity of musical gestures and types, of intervals, melodic motions, rhythms free and fixed, homophony v polyphony, the modes in their various types, and he was able to weave stunningly direct and powerful music from them, using them as ways to articulate form as a more traditional symphonist would use key and motive.
Quote from: Scarpia on July 01, 2010, 08:09:22 AM
Well, I done include pieces in my dislike which simply include folk-like melodies that are subsequently subjected to symphonic development. That is something that turns up in the music of nearly all significant composers (landler's in Mahler, occasional echos of country dances in the minuets and trios of Mozart, or in the scherzi of Bruckner). But "In Fen Country," "Dives and Lazarus," Norfolk Rhapsody, Fantasia on Greensleeves, that stuff bores me to tears.
No, precisely. You're speaking for me, there, too. Well, the Greensleeves one is OK - short and sweet, and the tune is pretty imperishable. But it's not one I seek out...
Quote from: Luke on July 01, 2010, 08:22:27 AM
No, precisely. You're speaking for me, there, too. Well, the Greensleeves one is OK - short and sweet, and the tune is pretty imperishable. But it's not one I seek out...
Yes, in itself all right . . . not Vaughan Williams's fault that that little bit is practically all that certain radio stations will play of his.
Quote from: Luke on July 01, 2010, 08:20:51 AM
I think the overwhelming beauty and strength....and depth, if that word is safe to use today (I don't use it often, I think my quota is still fairly full)....of the Tallis Fantasia, over and above the note-by-note ravishingness of it all, lies in the juxtaposition of two worlds, and two types of exisiting in relation to those worlds. There is the church, with the history, the humanity, the complexity that come with it, and there is the open field, the open sky. There is homophonic quasi-choral writing, false-related chords expressing doubt and duality and what it is to be human, and there are free-flowing, rhythmically unfettered, modal, polyphonic lines, as natural and as timeless as the birds in the trees, but carrying the inflections of the most ancient folksong at their core. No value judgement is implied between the two, either, to my ear. To me, the point in the score where the first gives way to the second is one of the simplest and most moving things in VW's music. As I said on the VW thread, wow, 2 years ago now, one of the most impressive things about him as a composer is that he understand the potency and the associative complexity of musical gestures and types, of intervals, melodic motions, rhythms free and fixed, homophony v polyphony, the modes in their various types, and he was able to weave stunningly direct and powerful music from them, using them as ways to articulate form as a more traditional symphonist would use key and motive.
Wonderful. I couldn't have written that, but I wish I could. There are a few bits there that I don't properly understand, but the parts I do understand match my experience perfectly. That dialogue between what we might call Modern, on the one hand, and what we might call Ancient, on the other, coupled with his ability to present it so clearly in such a deeply felt way, is what elevates him to greatness in my view. I can't talk about it in specifically musical terms, as you can - but all my instincts tell me we're talking about the same thing.
I think the reason why I always mentally link this with Elgar's Intro&Allegro must lie here. Musically they're very different of course, but Elgar spoke of hearing the main theme emanating from a Welsh chapel, and 'stole' it, in a sense. So the Intro&Allegro carries the same kind of dialogue between Ancient and Modern; the music may be different in the two cases, but the expression of humanity is the same.
AfterthoughtI said Ancient and Modern, but they're only imperfect approximations. I could equally well have used Timeless and Momentary, or some other complementing pair of not-quite-adequate expressions, but none of them match up to the more accurate descriptions that you've given.
Quote from: Luke on July 01, 2010, 08:20:51 AM
I think the overwhelming beauty and strength....and depth, if that word is safe to use today (I don't use it often, I think my quota is still fairly full)....of the Tallis Fantasia, over and above the note-by-note ravishingness of it all, lies in the juxtaposition of two worlds, and two types of exisiting in relation to those worlds. There is the church, with the history, the humanity, the complexity that come with it, and there is the open field, the open sky. There is homophonic quasi-choral writing, false-related chords expressing doubt and duality and what it is to be human, and there are free-flowing, rhythmically unfettered, modal, polyphonic lines, as natural and as timeless as the birds in the trees, but carrying the inflections of the most ancient folksong at their core. No value judgement is implied between the two, either, to my ear. To me, the point in the score where the first gives way to the second is one of the simplest and most moving things in VW's music. As I said on the VW thread, wow, 2 years ago now, one of the most impressive things about him as a composer is that he understand the potency and the associative complexity of musical gestures and types, of intervals, melodic motions, rhythms free and fixed, homophony v polyphony, the modes in their various types, and he was able to weave stunningly direct and powerful music from them, using them as ways to articulate form as a more traditional symphonist would use key and motive.
VW was the most astute musical psychologist I know of. This is probably related to his multimodal technique. I don't know if this is deliberate or inadvertent, a by-product of what is for the listener a path with fewer signposts. Emotion vs. architecture would be an oversimplification but it points the right way. Musical architects portray emotion, too. Yet it isn't quite the same as the unsettling way VW's music
seems to be driven purely by feeling. The pervasive disorientation of his methods works to the music's advantage. Though not, to be sure, for those who just don't buy it. I'm sure there will always be listeners who hear VW as meandering and unstructured.
The Tallis Fantasia was written as a commission for the Three Choirs Festival. This is an annual event that circulates round the Gothic cathedrals in three cities, Worcester, Hereford and Gloucester. The first performance of the Tallis Fantasia was given in Gloucester Cathedral; a building with a difficult acoustic, it can reduce Bach to mush with its reverberation.
The VW is written for orchestra, sub orchestra and quartet. Originally the sub-orchestra was divided physically from the body of players. I have heard the piece in Gloucester cathedral, but all the players remained in the body of the orchestra. It was a magical sound. Gloucester claims that VW wrote the piece with the acoustic and the spaces of the cathedral in mind.
I would like to hear it there in its intended layout. There would be a clearer antiphonal effect, surely one of the main aims of the piece and echoing the spatial sounds of the Tallis when sung in a cathedral quire, as well as the resonances that Luke expresses and Elgarian reinforces.
It may only last about a quarter of an hour, but it is one of those pieces that takes you into another place. The recorded performances I have are no doubt finer than the performance I heard live, but to hear it in a vast space...and to be gazing at that architecture, was very special.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4051/4215372103_03a12ec31a.jpg)
(http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif)
Mike
Edit: Here is a Youtube performance filmed in the cathedral, Andrew Davis conducting. The division of the orchestra into tis three parts has been followed...now all I need is surround sound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkMIgMYf6go&feature=related
Quote from: knight on July 01, 2010, 10:49:36 PM
The Tallis Fantasia was written as a commission for the Three Choirs Festival. This is an annual event that circulates round the Gothic cathedrals in three cities, Worcester, Hereford and Gloucester. The first performance of the Tallis Fantasia was given in Gloucester Cathedral; a building with a difficult acoustic, it can reduce Bach to mush with its reverberation.
The VW is written for orchestra, sub orchestra and quartet. Originally the sub-orchestra was divided physically from the body of players. I have heard the piece in Gloucester cathedral, but all the players remained in the body of the orchestra. It was a magical sound. Gloucester claims that VW wrote the piece with the acoustic and the spaces of the cathedral in mind.
I would like to hear it there in its intended layout. There would be a clearer antiphonal effect, surely one of the main aims of the piece and echoing the spatial sounds of the Tallis when sung in a cathedral quire, as well as the resonances that Luke expresses and Elgarian reinforces.
It may only last about a quarter of an hour, but it is one of those pieces that takes you into another place. . . .
Yes; like (for instance) the Stravinsky Symphonies of wind instruments, a 'minor' work which has a footprint out of proportion to its duration.
Here is the youtube embedded:http://www.youtube.com/v/YkMIgMYf6go
I've gone ahead and pulled the trigger on the four-disc Walton Centenary Box. The Symphonies in particular I need to get to know better.
Ferneyhough or Christopher Fox
Cornelius Cardew and John White
Quote from: Dax on August 20, 2010, 11:53:23 PM
Cornelius Cardew and John White
Yes, there are dozens of major composers missing from the poll.
Harrison Birtwistle
PMD
Dominic Muldowney
William Cornyshe
Stephen Storace
Charles Dibdin
Judith Weir
Michael Tippett
etc etc etc
Quote from: False_Dmitry on August 21, 2010, 01:50:12 AM
Yes, there are dozens of major composers missing from the poll.
Harrison Birtwistle
PMD
Dominic Muldowney
William Cornyshe
Stephen Storace
Charles Dibdin
Judith Weir
Michael Tippett
etc etc etc
Major composers? Don't you think that's stretching it a bit? Or can't you remember back to the days when fast food sodas came in small, medium, and large instead of large, jumbo, and humongous? ;D
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 21, 2010, 04:14:50 AM
Major composers? Don't you think that's stretching it a bit? Or can't you remember back to the days when fast food sodas came in small, medium, and large instead of large, jumbo, and humongous? ;D
Tippett, BIrtwistle and PMD are at least as "major" as Dunstable. (Considering most of Dunstable's work was burnt in the "Reformation"). If your work is peformed at the ROH like Birtwistle, many would consider that the sign of a major composer.
Or do you think the "major" composers only lived in the C19th?
Quote from: False_Dmitry on August 21, 2010, 04:24:08 AM
Tippett, BIrtwistle and PMD are at least as "major" as Dunstable. (Considering most of Dunstable's work was burnt in the "Reformation"). If your work is peformed at the ROH like Birtwistle, many would consider that the sign of a major composer.
Or do you think the "major" composers only lived in the C19th?
No. ;D
Quote from: Elgarian on July 01, 2010, 08:02:37 AM
Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that Elgar said sometime, somewhere, to somebody: 'I am folk music' or some such. Not that I ever knew what he meant by it.
He did indeed say this, in answer to a question by his friend Troyte Griffith, who asked him "What do you think about this folk music?" Elgar answered: "I don't think about it at all - I
am folk music!"
I'm pretty sure I understand his meaning: that he knew his music had become - or was in the process of becoming - part of the English national consciousness. Not just because of our "alternative National Anthem",
Land of Hope and Glory, but because Elgar's musical idiom has become intrinsically linked with "Englishness".
For example, any British TV series which deals with English history, the English landscape, or the English way of life often has a cod-Elgar piece as its soundtrack. One that immediately pops into my mind is the old sitcom
To The Manor Born, whose theme music was a pseudo-
Pomp & Circumstance Big Tune!
Quote from: Klaatu on August 21, 2010, 07:43:48 AMFor example, any British TV series which deals with English history, the English landscape, or the English way of life often has a cod-Elgar piece as its soundtrack. One that immediately pops into my mind is the old sitcom To The Manor Born, whose theme music was a pseudo-Pomp & Circumstance Big Tune!
"Cod-Elgar piece" is very good!... The tune that pops into my head immediately is the one for Yes (Prime) Minister.
Looking back on my vote, I voted for RVW simply by default, because he is my to-go-to British composer, but I should have checked "other," because I love Rubbra and Alwyn almost equally now.
It's funny that this poll almost entirely leaves out the Golden Age of English Musick (16th-17th centuries). Where are Tallis, Byrd, Gibbons, Dowland etc.? There was actually a period when English music was foremost in Europe. That was it.
Quote from: Velimir on December 17, 2010, 10:22:19 AM
It's funny that this poll almost entirely leaves out the Golden Age of English Musick (16th-17th centuries). Where are Tallis, Byrd, Gibbons, Dowland etc.? There was actually a period when English music was foremost in Europe. That was it.
Adding them to the poll wouldn't have changed the results much, if at all. Those composers would have received 1 or 2 votes each, at most.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2010, 11:25:14 AM
Adding them to the poll wouldn't have changed the results much, if at all.
You're right...I voted for VW myself :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2010, 11:25:14 AM
Adding them to the poll wouldn't have changed the results much, if at all. Those composers would have received 1 or 2 votes each, at most.
Sarge
That's so true.
Gustav Holst is absolutely my favourite British composer, his music is so thrilling and expressive!! Then, a little step backward, Elgar and Vaughan-Williams :)
Ilaria
Vaughan Williams, Rubbra, Britten, and Rawsthorne are the reasons I continue to listen to British music. 8)
Britten. Just watch.
http://www.youtube.com/v/S92mnu3l99E
I voted "Other" because my favourite British composer is someone not on the list.
Just when I thought it was sooo hard to choose between Elgar and Vaughn Williams, I noticed Britten's name was there too! Some choices are terribly hard to make!
Quote from: Sandra on October 05, 2011, 01:22:16 AM
Just when I thought it was sooo hard to choose between Elgar and Vaughn Williams, I noticed Britten's name was there too! Some choices are terribly hard to make!
Yeah, and to think there are still some brilliant composers left off this list, it could have been a tougher choice. :-\
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 02, 2011, 11:36:46 AM
Gustav Holst is absolutely my favourite British composer, his music is so thrilling and expressive!! Then, a little step backward, Elgar and Vaughan-Williams :)
Ilaria
Gustav Holst is a good composer but he's hardly a favorite of mine. How is RVW going backwards?
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2011, 06:58:10 AM
Gustav Holst is a good composer but he's hardly a favorite of mine. How is RVW going backwards?
Well, I really like Vaughan-Williams, especially his symphonies and both the Piano and the Oboe Concerto, but I personally prefer Holst, his music is so expressive and harmonic!
By the way, Holst was a very close friend of Vaughan-Williams.
I suppose you prefer RVW, he's one of your favourite composer.....
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 07, 2011, 07:15:32 AM
Well, I really like Vaughan-Williams, especially his symphonies and both the Piano and the Oboe Concerto, but I personally prefer Holst, his music is so expressive and harmonic!
By the way, Holst was a very close friend of Vaughan-Williams.
I suppose you prefer RVW, he's one of your favourite composer.....
RVW and Holst were so close that they often shared music with each other and even gave criticism of each other's work. Yes, RVW is one of my favorite composers of all-time. His music moves me so much. The harmony found in RVW is beautiful. A combination of Impressionism and hymnal modality.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2011, 07:25:00 AM
Yes, RVW is one of my favorite composers of all-time. His music moves me so much. The harmony found in RVW is beautiful. A combination of Impressionism and hymnal modality.
Sure, I agree; it's very poetic and melodious :)