GMG Classical Music Forum

Whose music of these two American composers do you find more dramatic, taking the word 'dramatic' to mean stirring, exciting, exploiting every manner of expression and making a deep and cathartic impression ?

For me undoubtedly it's John Williams. The 1978 soundtrack to  Superman  alone will do it.

I also believe that between the two of them, Williams has a much better chance of entering the standard repertory.

John Williams can get boring pretty quickly! I'd give Carter the benefit of the doubt based solely on hearing John Williams. I.E. "he has to be better than this guy."

Next, Céline Dion versus Sofia Gubaidulina!  8)

Erm... They compose for two entirely different genres, for different purposes... John Williams does not in general compose classical music - or rather 'art music', nor is it his intention to do so. When he has done, the results are often much better than expected - especially the Cello Concerto and Heartwood. I say this without bias - these two cello works are his finest pieces and worth a listen if you are at all interested in what he really is like as a composer...

Anyway, I like both for different reasons in their respecetive genres. Both are supremely accomplished at what they set out to compose.

But Guido, which one best exploits every manner of expression in making a deep and cathartic impression? ;D

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on September 24, 2008, 06:34:29 PM
For me undoubtedly it's John Williams.

For you, undoubtedly.

Quote from: JCampbell on September 25, 2008, 01:19:56 AM
But Guido, which one best exploits every manner of expression in making a deep and cathartic impression? ;D

Joe, you are a master of the referential italics!

Quote from: JCampbell on September 24, 2008, 10:40:55 PM
John Williams can get boring pretty quickly!

Now it can be told!  8)

Quote from: Wanderer on September 24, 2008, 11:58:11 PM
Next, Céline Dion versus Sofia Gubaidulina!  8)

James Joyce vs. Barbara Cartland?

Picasso vs. Disney!

Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2008, 02:51:38 AM
Joe, you are a master of the referential italics!

I learn from the best. ;)

Quote from: Wendell_E on September 25, 2008, 02:56:56 AM
James Joyce vs. Barbara Cartland?

[slaps head] Of course! But I think it's too late to recommend Babs to Sean now. After all, as the man said himself:

Quote from: SeanArt is a reflection of the fundamentals of reality, the pre-linguistic, pre-rational forces and potentials that move and guide us, and which we later give intellectual expression to. I refer you to Indian philosophy and the flow of the gunas, in the realm of the Dionysiac

....and I refer him to la Cartland. I think he'll enjoy this one:

(http://imshopping.rediff.com/books/imagechek/books/pixs/72/8129111772.jpg)

Apparently there's one called 'Temptation for a Teacher' which perhaps he should avoid. 'Peaks of Ecstasy' sounds good, though...

"The flow of guano"; that's our Sean!

John Williams vs Elliott Carter is like Apples vs Oranges. John Williams is in my opinion the greatest movie composer ever. Carter's music I don't know enough.

I voted J. W.  :P

Whenever Sean types and the word Dionysiac shows up, that's about when I tune out.

Quote from: JCampbell on September 25, 2008, 03:16:50 PMWhenever Sean types and the word Dionysiac shows up, that's about when I tune out.

Good one...  ;D   

Me too, although I still enjoy reading his stuff.

It's fine to enjoy reading it, of course. It has a very sensuous and Dionysian quality. What is more, it has quite clearly been written without any preoccupation with the fallacies of 'intellectual rigour', of 'making sense'. In other words, one only needs to sit there and soak oneself in its gorgeousness, without worrying about whether it actually means anything coherent. As the man says

Quotean intellectual understanding is a secondary matter

Like true Art, as he defines it, Sean's writing taps into the 'pre-rational'. And that, of course is just how he would want it.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 25, 2008, 05:12:54 PM
...one only needs to sit there and soak oneself in its gorgeousness, without worrying about whether it actually means anything coherent...

This sounds shockingly similar - and I suspect it might be intentional - to a certain 'view' of music I've heard argued fervently on this board.

Really? Oh yes, I suppose it does....well I never!  :o

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 25, 2008, 05:12:54 PM
It's fine to enjoy reading it, of course. It has a very sensuous and Dionysian quality. What is more, it has quite clearly been written without any preoccupation with the fallacies of 'intellectual rigour', of 'making sense'. In other words, one only needs to sit there and soak oneself in its gorgeousness, without worrying about whether it actually means anything coherent. As the man says

Like true Art, as he defines it, Sean's writing taps into the 'pre-rational'. And that, of course is just how he would want it.

Luke,

I fear, with respect, that a major point is being missed here.

Loving and appreciating music is nothing to do with "understanding" or "learning" about the composer, or the system of notation, or the "language" - or whether the idiom is based on an 8, 12 or 197,400 tone scale.

It is simply about an immediate, emotional, even spiritual, reaction.

You don't have to know anything about Allegri, or his music, to feel shivers up your spine when you listen to a great performance of his  Miserere.  It connects immediately with something archetypal within the human soul. Music that doesn't, isn't.

True, but if you're simply uncertain about something (but don't despise it), you have a chance at liking it after repeated listening.

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on September 25, 2008, 05:34:31 PM
Luke,

I fear, with respect, that a major point is being missed here.

Loving and appreciating music is nothing to do with "understanding" or "learning" about the composer, or the system of notation, or the "language" - or whether the idiom is based on an 8, 12 or 197,400 tone scale.

It is simply about an immediate, emotional, even spiritual, reaction.

You don't have to know anything about Allegri, or his music, to feel shivers up your spine when you listen to a great performance of his  Miserere.  It connects immediately with something archetypal within the human soul. Music that doesn't, isn't.

Oh, I see. I wish you'd said that before. Why don't you tell us these things, Eric?

Still, my point (and do I have to point out that it may just be the weeniest bit facetious?) is that this is surely how we all feel about Sean's writing, including you, as you have indicated: we 'simply [have] an immediate, emotional, even spiritual, reaction'. Sean is resolutely opposed to any kind of 'intellectual' systems in Art, believing as you do that the sensuous reaction is 'the thing'; and his writing remains true to this belief of his.

I knew this "poll" was an agenda! I knew it! Why couldn't you just come out and say that you think that modern classical music is out of touch with your aesthetic sensibility? Did you think you could 'trick' people into admitting sheepishly that they actually have no interest in the music of Carter? pssh

If I went with your instincts, I would have never have come to appreciate Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, or anything by Xenakis. Music doesn't have to make me feel good for me to enjoy it. Penderecki is an immediate example.

Quote from: JCampbell on September 25, 2008, 05:52:30 PMIf I went with your instincts, I would have never have come to appreciate Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, or anything by Xenakis. Music doesn't have to make me feel good for me to enjoy it. Penderecki is an immediate example.

What about  Pelleas et Melisande ?

Do you know it ?

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on September 25, 2008, 05:57:47 PM
What about  Pelleas et Melisande ?

Do you know it ?

I know of it. I haven't heard it. I probably should, considering my fascination with almost all of Debussy's other music. To be honest, it's just hard for me to get into opera.

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on September 25, 2008, 05:57:47 PM
What about  Pelleas et Melisande ?

Do you know it ?

Why yes, it is one of my favorite works by Arnold Schoenberg!   0:)

Opus 5: highly recommended!

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on September 25, 2008, 05:34:31 PM
It connects immediately with something archetypal within the human soul.

I don't think so. One's initial reaction — whether it's hate or love (or something in between) — to a piece of music has nothing to do with anything "inborn", but everything to do with a person's previous experiences (even going back to early childhood). It doesn't even necessarily have to be musical influences, in my experience.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 25, 2008, 05:32:58 PM
Really? Oh yes, I suppose it does....well I never!  :o

Well, hardly ever . . . .

Just for the record, Le sacre du printemps has always made me "feel good."  So from my perspective, there is no case for any "superiority" on the part of the Debussy on that account.

Does it make you regular? ;D

This is a song about vegetables, they keep you regular, they're real good for ya.

Call any vegetable, call it by name . . . .

Just a quick note: I saw the title, I saw the name, and I am here to announce that I will not participate in this thread and have not read whatever silly but predictable provocation the The Ardent Pederast has written up top. I thought this board was through with this kind of thing.

It was. But then he came back.

I think they both suck. There, i said it. Sorry, but American classical music is just full of fail. The best American musicians are jazz artists in my book.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 26, 2008, 12:19:57 PM
Sorry, but American classical music is just full of fail.

An unsuccessful statement on more than one level.

Well, don't feel bad. I still haven't heard anything of yours besides a few snippets so you weren't included in my sweeping generalization.

But really, why do Anglo-Saxons make such poor musicians? Not only America, but England too has seen a relative dearth of musical talent throughout it's history. Must be the weather or something.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 26, 2008, 03:42:00 PM
Well, don't feel bad. I still haven't heard anything of yours besides a few snippets so you weren't included in my sweeping generalization.

But really, why do Anglo-Saxons make such poor musicians? Not only America, but England too has seen a relative dearth of musical talent throughout it's history. Must be the weather or something.

Odd statement for someone with the moniker of a Renaissance composer - Leonel Power and Dunstable were the most important composers of the early renaissance.  then there was Tallis, Byrd, Gibbons etc.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 26, 2008, 12:19:57 PM
I think they both suck. There, i said it. Sorry, but American classical music is just full of fail. The best American musicians are jazz artists in my book.

Josquin,

Wow, I never thought I'd see anyone diss Elliott Carter on this board.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 26, 2008, 03:42:00 PM
But really, why do Anglo-Saxons make such poor musicians? Not only America, but England too has seen a relative dearth of musical talent throughout it's history. Must be the weather or something.

That's rather narrow-minded in the face of what the Anglo-Saxons have contributed to the world of art in general. Literature, painting, poetry, film, etc..., all at the supreme levels of achievement.

And the music's not as bad as all that, with Britten (at least) certainly belonging among the greats. 

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 26, 2008, 03:42:00 PM


But really, why do Anglo-Saxons make such poor musicians? Not only America, but England too has seen a relative dearth of musical talent throughout it's history. Must be the weather or something.

I tend to feel the same way. They just don't compare to the Germans or Russians, or even the French. But I still find a lot to like, even if it's not as much as the latter.

Excuse me, but can we please get back to the discussion of Elliott Carter vs. John Williams??!

For me: I like a little Williams in the morning, and then some Carter at night.

Has Yo-Yo Ma ever played anything by Carter?

'Nuff said.

He's played 'em both. Ergo, they both pass the Yo-Yo test...

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 27, 2008, 09:12:08 AM
He's played 'em both. Ergo, they both pass the Yo-Yo test...

Okay.

Now, what is the capital of Assyria?

Trick question. Nineveh or Assur?  ;D     (or, apparently, Calah and Dur Sharrukin, too)

Can the OP delete posts in his/her own thread?

Quote from: JCampbell on September 27, 2008, 09:51:07 AM
Can the OP delete posts in his/her own thread?

No.

Quote from: karlhenning on September 27, 2008, 10:15:01 AM
No.

Oh...I got confused. There was a football tangent in another thread and for some reason I thought it was this one (same OP). Nevermind. :)

Quote from: karlhenning on September 27, 2008, 09:14:44 AM
Okay.

Now, what is the capital of Assyria?

Sphincter.

Wrong, Greg; just wrong.

Quote from: karlhenning on September 27, 2008, 04:07:27 PM
Wrong, Greg; just wrong.

But clever, nonetheless.

Oh, we gladly grant him that.

Quote from: JCampbell on September 27, 2008, 09:51:07 AMCan the OP delete posts in his/her own thread?

But the OP can delete his original post, which deletes the entire thread.

John Williams's impact on movie music has been disastrous, imho. Ever since Star Wars, everything has to be big and brassy and pompous, like an army is marching into Berlin. Hollywood wants nothing but the soundtrack to war. The really beautiful, atmospheric stuff, like the scores Rota wrote for the Godfather and Barbiei wrote for Last Tango, don't get written anymore. Or they get overlooked.

Quote from: Schicksal on September 28, 2008, 08:37:34 AM
John Williams's impact on movie music has been disastrous, imho. Ever since Star Wars, everything has to be big and brassy and pompous, like an army is marching into Berlin. Hollywood wants nothing but the soundtrack to war. The really beautiful, atmospheric stuff, like the scores Rota wrote for the Godfather and Barbiei wrote for Last Tango, don't get written anymore. Or they get overlooked.

Fargo?

Quote from: Schicksal on September 28, 2008, 08:37:34 AM
John Williams's impact on movie music has been disastrous, imho. Ever since Star Wars, everything has to be big and brassy and pompous, like an army is marching into Berlin. Hollywood wants nothing but the soundtrack to war. The really beautiful, atmospheric stuff, like the scores Rota wrote for the Godfather and Barbiei wrote for Last Tango, don't get written anymore. Or they get overlooked.

Stupid statement! Of course war movies have brassy/pompous music. You need to hear John Williams's soundtrack for "Catch Me If You Can." Don't blame him for bad music by others.

The Catch Me If You Can soundtrack is very good.

Quote from: Schicksal on September 28, 2008, 08:37:34 AM
John Williams's impact on movie music has been disastrous, imho. Ever since Star Wars, everything has to be big and brassy and pompous

Are you familiar with Korngold, Rosza, Steiner, or Herrmann?

Quote from: 71 dB on September 28, 2008, 11:29:14 AM
blame him for bad music by others.

No, I blame him for bad music by him. But his influence has been pernicious. And Star Wars brought a great period of movies to a dead end.

Fargo was nice soundtrack.

Quote from: Schicksal on September 28, 2008, 01:17:46 PM
No, I blame him for bad music by him. But his influence has been pernicious. And Star Wars brought a great period of movies to a dead end.

The music in Star Wars movies is brilliant. I don't remember ever hearing bad music by John Williams. That's what I think but by all means keep your opinions.  :P

Quote from: Schicksal on September 28, 2008, 01:17:46 PM
No, I blame him for bad music by him. But his influence has been pernicious. And Star Wars brought a great period of movies to a dead end.

Fargo was nice soundtrack.

Schicksal,

Do you not even find this stirring and beautiful ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7VKAyrDm0

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on September 28, 2008, 01:27:28 PMDo you not even find this stirring and beautiful ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7VKAyrDm0

Third-rate Holst.

But I do like some martial scores: Patton and Battle of Britain were really first rate, thouh BofB was not that good a movie.

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on September 28, 2008, 01:27:28 PM
Schicksal,

Do you not even find this stirring and beautiful ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7VKAyrDm0

Superman isn't John Williams' best moments. In fact it's mediocre. Schicksal should hear "Stored Memories and Monica's Theme" from A.I. That's NOT pompous brassy third-rate Holst.  ;D

Keep in mind that John Williams writes movie scores, not symphonies.  Although they use roughly the same ensemble, they shouldn't be confused as the same genre.  Being a good film composer requires a different skill set, namely the ability to generate music very quickly and reliably.  It also requires the skill to compliment moving images and not try to distract.  Film music is a very different beast.

So I say enjoy film music for what it is, not for what it isn't.

Quote from: 71 dB on September 28, 2008, 01:47:02 PM
Superman isn't John Williams' best moments. In fact it's mediocre.

That's fair.

Quote from: Catison on September 28, 2008, 02:16:45 PM
Keep in mind that John Williams writes movie scores, not symphonies.  Although they use roughly the same ensemble, they shouldn't be confused as the same genre.  Being a good film composer requires a different skill set, namely the ability to generate music very quickly and reliably.  It also requires the skill to compliment moving images and not try to distract.  Film music is a very different beast.

So I say enjoy film music for what it is, not for what it isn't.

That's fair, too.

Quote from: Szykniej on September 27, 2008, 05:09:34 PM
But clever, nonetheless.

If you've watched enough Family Guy, you'll get the reference.  8)

Quote from: Catison on September 28, 2008, 02:16:45 PM
Keep in mind that John Williams writes movie scores, not symphonies.  Although they use roughly the same ensemble, they shouldn't be confused as the same genre.  Being a good film composer requires a different skill set, namely the ability to generate music very quickly and reliably.  It also requires the skill to compliment moving images and not try to distract.  Film music is a very different beast.

So I say enjoy film music for what it is, not for what it isn't.

Exactly. That's why it strkies me as so bizarre to be asked to compare Carter vs. John Williams. Carter vs. Vaughan Williams would be a strange enough comparison, but at least they both operate in the sphere of concert music.

Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 28, 2008, 03:50:01 PMExactly. That's why it strkies me as so bizarre to be asked to compare Carter vs. John Williams. Carter vs. Vaughan Williams would be a strange enough comparison, but at least they both operate in the sphere of concert music.

Yeah, but I like both Carter and Vaughan-Williams. In any event, the 70-30 split in the poll says something interesting. Just what I can't be sure, but it was Eric who set up the contest. ;)

Quote from: Joe Barron on September 28, 2008, 04:04:33 PMYeah, but I like both Carter and Vaughan-Williams

No  Superman  for you, Joe ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7VKAyrDm0

???

Doesn't matter how often you toss up that youtube link, Eric.  It just isn't as "special" for everybody else as it seems to be for you.

The Carter-enjoying musical public are not going to flock to the John Williams camp, based on Superman.

Ain't gonna happen, fella.

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on September 28, 2008, 04:07:56 PM
No  Superman  for you, Joe ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7VKAyrDm0

???

Well, ya know, it's OK. It's nice. It's not bad. But it's not something I'm going to sit down and listen to in my living room when I feel like listening to something, like a Haydn string quartet or a Mozart piano concerto or a Mahler symphony or Debussy's piano music --- or Carter or Boulez or Xenakis (whose music I want to explore more). I agree with the poster who said that movie music is a different animal. If I ever see Superman again, I suppose I'll appreciate what the music does for the story. But to tell you the truth, I don't like music that I have to associate with a man in tights.

And while we're on the subject, I'm getting tired of TV shows using pop songs to set a mood --- particularly cop shows, where it appears to be de rigeur during the perp walk. Jeez, people, time between commercials is precious. Write a damn scene.

I think all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told how ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not. And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am.

Quote from: Joe Barron on September 28, 2008, 06:24:21 PMBut it's not something I'm going to sit down and listen to in my living room

And that's  exactly  what I've been doing these past 3 or 4 days and now I can't get enough of it...  ???

It all began last Wednesday as I was searching for information on the city of Nouakchott through YouTube where there was an advert of the Superman soundtrack. The last time I listened to this music I was around 7 years old when I first saw the film in 1978... Now I am like: "Damn, this is very fine music !"

I went out to Barnes and Noble and bought the deluxe edition.   ???

How did I go from my top favorites - Wagner, Debussy, Bruckner, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Richard Strauss, Tchaikovsky and Brahms to the  Superman  soundtrack ?

Jeez, what is happening to me ?

:'(

I continuously marvel at the elegance and aristocratic sensuality of John Williams' Superman. ;)

I see a new signature coming...

Quote from: Joe Barron on September 28, 2008, 06:24:21 PM
Jeez, people, time between commercials is precious. Write a damn scene.

Yeah!  $:)

Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 28, 2008, 08:04:26 PM
I continuously marvel at the elegance and aristocratic sensuality of John Williams' Superman. ;)

You forgot aesthetic radiance.

Quote from: Guido on September 25, 2008, 12:36:06 AM
Erm... They compose for two entirely different genres, for different purposes...

Exactly. Another utterly useless poll.

Thomas

Quote from: Catison on September 28, 2008, 02:16:45 PM
Keep in mind that John Williams writes movie scores, not symphonies. 

Williams did write one:  http://www.johnwilliams.org/compositions/symphony.html

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on September 28, 2008, 07:08:55 PM
And that's  exactly  what I've been doing these past 3 or 4 days and now I can't get enough of it...

Eeeewwww. I mean, that's your trip, dude.

Quote from: Joe Barron on September 28, 2008, 06:24:21 PM
And while we're on the subject, I'm getting tired of TV shows using pop songs to set a mood --- particularly cop shows, where it appears to be de rigeur during the perp walk. Jeez, people, time between commercials is precious. Write a damn scene.

Excellent criticism & exhortation, mon vieux.

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on September 28, 2008, 07:08:55 PM,
Jeez, what is happening to me ?

You've got an ear worm. It happens to the best of us, so there's no reason it shouldn't happen to you.

You describing a phenomenon I've noticed about myself when it comes to pop music. If I come across a catchy song I like a lot, I'll listen to it over and over in a brief period of time --- a couple of weeks, even a few months. Then I'll leave it and almost never go back. Classical strikes me differently: I might not listen, say, Schubert Lieder as often in a year as I once did to Talking Heads --- back in 1981, I saw Stop Making Sense four times--- but I know I'll always return to them, whereas I haven't listened to Talking Heads in years, except for the occasional burst from the radio. It's happening now with Charles Ives, whose music I hadn't listened to in a long time. After some stimulating exchanges with Guido, I've gone back to the quartets and listened to them several times in the past week or so. I've even picked up a couple of additional recordings.

Quote from: Wanderer on September 29, 2008, 12:22:35 AMYou forgot aesthetic radiance.

And its deep and cathartic impression.

Quote from: Joe Barron on September 29, 2008, 06:35:48 AM
And its deep and cathartic impression.

Cathartic? More like the insertion of a catheter.

My wife considers earworms to be a curse. I guess she wants control of what plays on her inner iPod.

When I find a tune that plays over and over in my head, I just roll with the punches, enjoy it while it lasts, and something else always comes along to take its place.

The Superman march sounds so much like the Star Wars march and the Indiana Jones march that I don't know if I could keep it straight in my head. I'm sure the director of the movie specifically told Williams to come up with something that sounded just like the Star Wars march. And so he did.

Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 29, 2008, 06:50:16 AM
The Superman march sounds so much like the Star Wars march and the Indiana Jones march that I don't know if I could keep it straight in my head.

That doesn't say much about the music, but a lot about your head.  :P

Thomas

Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 29, 2008, 06:50:16 AM
My wife considers earworms to be a curse. I guess she wants control of what plays on her inner iPod.

I don't blame her!

I seem to have developed a reliable strategy for exiling ear-worms, so they don't trouble me. 

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on September 28, 2008, 07:08:55 PM
How did I go from my top favorites - Wagner, Debussy, Bruckner, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Richard Strauss, Tchaikovsky and Brahms to the  Superman  soundtrack ?

Jeez, what is happening to me ?

:'(

Relax, Mr. Pink. Williams composed a stirring, emotional score with beautiful, memorable melodies. There's no reason not to enjoy the music. Wagner, Debussy, et al., aren't going away. They'll be waiting for you when you tire of Superman. Me, I hadn't heard the soundtrack in quite a while. I'm playing it now...it's like the return of an old friend, and I'm thoroughly enjoying its company after a heavy day of opera and Roussel symphonies.

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2008, 07:58:55 AM
. . . after a heavy day of opera . . . .

Counting on sympathy, eh?  ;D

Quote from: karlhenning on September 29, 2008, 07:01:14 AM
I don't blame her!

I seem to have developed a reliable strategy for exiling ear-worms, so they don't trouble me. 

Earworms simply don't trouble me. My head has enough tunes rolling around in it that nothing gets stuck for long. Any music that's memorable enough to get stuck in my head deserves a pat on the back. And I find that Schubert and Prokofiev are two of the stickiest and most earworm-prone composers that ever lived. Can you really complain about getting the Andante from the Great C Major Symphony stuck in your head?

Quote from: karlhenning on September 29, 2008, 07:01:14 AM
I seem to have developed a reliable strategy for exiling ear-worms, so they don't trouble me. 

Do share.

Quote from: Joe Barron on September 29, 2008, 08:36:07 AM
Do share.

I concentrate on some other powerful tune;  it overpowers the worm, but is not the annoyance that the worm was . . . and my sanity remains intact.

(I think.)

Quote from: karlhenning on September 29, 2008, 08:02:11 AM
Counting on sympathy, eh?  ;D

I tells ya, Karl, that Bizet fella takes real hard listenin' Exhaustin' I tells ya.

Sarge

Dancing the Habañera sure do take it out of you, dunnit!?

OTOH, it is Deeply Cathartic . . . .

Quote from: karlhenning on September 29, 2008, 09:09:49 AM
I concentrate on some other powerful tune;  it overpowers the worm, but is not the annoyance that the worm was . . . and my sanity remains intact.

Yeah, I've tried that. It doesn;t work for me as well as sitcking my hand into the garbage disposal.

Quote from: karlhenning on September 29, 2008, 10:18:16 AM
Dancing the Habañera sure do take it out of you, dunnit!?

It do, Karl...but clogging along to them catchy tunes is the only way I can really git it, know what I mean?

Quote from: karlhenning on September 29, 2008, 07:01:14 AM
I seem to have developed a reliable strategy for exiling ear-worms, so they don't trouble me. 

Quote from: Joe Barron on September 29, 2008, 08:36:07 AM
Do share.

High voltage electrical shock applied separately to each ring segment is the only known way to kill and preserve them. No wait ... sorry ... that's for sandworms.   :P

Quote from: Szykniej on September 29, 2008, 03:11:49 PM
High voltage electrical shock applied separately to each ring segment is the only known way to kill and preserve them. No wait ... sorry ... that's for sandworms.   :P

I had a brother-in-law who used to think (probably still does) that shocking himself with the metal claws of jumper cables while the other ends were attached to a car battery was good for the heart.

In small doses.

Quote from: donwyn on September 29, 2008, 04:15:11 PM
I had a brother-in-law who used to think (probably still does) that shocking himself with the metal claws of jumper cables while the other ends were attached to a car battery was good for the heart.

In small doses.

To what did he attach the ends that weren't attached to the battery?   :o

Quote from: Szykniej on September 29, 2008, 04:20:43 PM
To what did he attach the ends that weren't attached to the battery?   :o

Someone else.

Quote from: Szykniej on September 29, 2008, 04:20:43 PM
To what did he attach the ends that weren't attached to the battery?   :o

I never had the courage to ask. ;D

Quote from: James on October 01, 2008, 09:54:11 AM
ANY music can be compared for its aesthetic/cognitive qualities & values. Does the vision embody a deep spiritual quest? artistic truth? a true free inner voice? real meaning for ages? etc.

Well, but you see, all this is exactly what the OP is claiming to be true for John Williams.

and how would you go about measuring one against the next?

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 12:22:19 PM
and how would you go about measuring one against the next?

An aestheticometer of course!

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 12:22:19 PM
and how would you go about measuring one against the next?

Just ask yours truly. My judgment is unassailable.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 01, 2008, 12:51:14 PM
Just ask yours truly. My judgment is unassailable.

where's your proof?

Quote from: James on October 01, 2008, 09:54:11 AM
ANY music can be compared for it's aesthetic/cognitive qualities & values. Does the vision embody a deep spiritual quest? artistic truth? a true free inner voice? real meaning for ages? etc. or does the creator choose/aspire to confine himself to write wallpaper/pastiche picture music with nothing more under the surface?

I'm not sure it's that simple. Toru Takemitsu was highly influenced by the blatantly wallpaper music of Satie, but lots of people see great spiritual insight in Takemitsu's works.

Quote from: CRCulver on October 02, 2008, 01:28:59 AM
I'm not sure it's that simple. Toru Takemitsu was highly influenced by the blatantly wallpaper music of Satie, but lots of people see great spiritual insight in Takemitsu's works.

...and in Satie's too (and very possibly more so). The 'wallpaper' aspect is not a million miles away from Cage's Zen: that's partly why Cage thought Satie the most important of 20th century composers.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 02, 2008, 02:51:38 AM
that's partly why Cage thought Satie the most important of 20th century composers.

Other then the fact Cage was a blatant idiot and a charlatan? Satie the most important 20th century composer. Right. Next you'll tell me that 4'33 is actually music.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 02, 2008, 05:37:47 AM
Other then the fact Cage was a blatant idiot and a charlatan?

Poor quality of thought on your part, either adjective.

Ranks high on the Blinkered Reactionary Index, though.

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 05:42:21 PM
where's your proof?

Who needs proof when you are Zod? Kneel before me earthling.

(http://host.trivialbeing.org/up/zod.head.jpg)

Quote from: karlhenning on October 02, 2008, 05:49:34 AM
Poor quality of thought on your part, either adjective.

Ranks high on the Blinkered Reactionary Index, though.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why when faced with a patently idiotic statement (Satie being the most influential composer of the 20th century) i cannot logically assume the the author of said statement isn't either an idiot or a complete canard.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 02, 2008, 08:44:03 AM
Perhaps you'd like to explain why when faced with a patently idiotic statement (Satie being the most influential important composer of the 20th century) i cannot logically assume the the author of said statement isn't either an idiot or a complete canard.

Fixed that for you :P

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 02, 2008, 08:44:03 AM
Perhaps you'd like to explain why when faced with a patently idiotic statement (Satie being the most influential composer of the 20th century) i cannot logically assume the the author of said statement isn't either an idiot or a complete canard.

The explanation is simplicity itself.

One statement, to which you take keen exception, does not make an idiot.

And to call Cage a charlatan, when you've heard — how much of his music, exactly? — shows you up for a fraud.

You're hanging a bit too much on this little statement, JQP - when I made it I didn't know it was going to be subjected to your intense scrutiny.  ::) ::)

FWIW, I wasn't quoting Cage, I was extrapolating from my memories of his writings on Satie. To Cage, Satie was more important than any other 20th century composer - Webern in a close second place, I believe - and this for perfectly cogent and reasonable musical reasons, from Cage's own viewpoint. Cage prioritised certain things in composition (to do with aesthetic stance, but also, more specifically, to do with the compositional use of proportion) which he saw no one else prioritising apart from Satie - and that being the case, I don't see why he shouldn't feel free to have the opinion of Satie that I'm attributing to him. (Though I can try to look out some quotations to back me up if I must).

And, you know what? - Cage and Satie having composed some of the most sensitively, subtly beautiful music of the 20th century, it really doesn't matter a jot what those who don't create beautiful music but simply whine about it think. Personally, I couldn't live without the Sonatas and Interludes, nor without Socrate and the Nocturnes...

Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 02, 2008, 10:25:10 AM
And, you know what? - Cage and Satie having composed some of the most sensitively, subtly beautiful music of the 20th century,

I agree with this. I've often said that if Cage had remained on the path he had set for himself in the 1940s, he's be up there with Stravinsky today. His imagination was that good. Then he moved into aleatory stuff, the "music I do not have in mind," and even then, the results are often interesting, if sometimes unlistenable. (I can't bear the Freeman etudes, for example.) Copland once said of him that he didn' really care to write enduring masterpiees as to keep himself entertained for a few hours. That's accurate, but it doesn't make him an idiot or a charlatan.

Quote from: Joe Barron on October 02, 2008, 11:48:01 AM
I agree with this. I've often said that if Cage had remained on the path he had set for himself in the 1940s, he'd be up there with Stravinsky today. His imagination was that good. Then he moved into aleatory stuff, the "music I do not have in mind," and even then, the results are often interesting, if sometimes unlistenable. (I can't bear the Freeman etudes, for example.) Copland once said of him that he didn't really care to write enduring masterpieces as to keep himself entertained for a few hours. That's accurate, but it doesn't make him an idiot or a charlatan.

Excellent précis, Joe.

All I'd add is that Cage and Satie are certainly powerfully alike, in their renunciation of The Masterpiece Ethic.

[ And, fine post, Luke. ]

Quote from: Joe Barron on October 02, 2008, 11:48:01 AM
if Cage had remained on the path he had set for himself in the 1940s, he's be up there with Stravinsky today

I think he actually is up there with Stravinsky now. Unless either he or Igor (or both) went to hell, then they are both down there now.

Quote from: M forever on October 02, 2008, 09:48:05 PM
I think he actually is up there with Stravinsky now. Unless either he or Igor (or both) went to hell, then they are both down there now.

::)

I thought that was pretty funny, actually. No?

Quote from: M forever on October 02, 2008, 09:48:05 PM
I think he actually is up there with Stravinsky now. Unless either he or Igor (or both) went to hell, then they are both down there now.

If either he or Igor went to hell, they wouldn't be both down there now.

Quote from: Joe Barron on September 29, 2008, 06:32:22 AM
You've got an ear worm. It happens to the best of us, so there's no reason it shouldn't happen to you.

You describing a phenomenon I've noticed about myself when it comes to pop music. If I come across a catchy song I like a lot, I'll listen to it over and over in a brief period of time --- a couple of weeks, even a few months. Then I'll leave it and almost never go back. Classical strikes me differently: I might not listen, say, Schubert Lieder as often in a year as I once did to Talking Heads --- back in 1981, I saw Stop Making Sense four times--- but I know I'll always return to them, whereas I haven't listened to Talking Heads in years, except for the occasional burst from the radio. It's happening now with Charles Ives, whose music I hadn't listened to in a long time. After some stimulating exchanges with Guido, I've gone back to the quartets and listened to them several times in the past week or so. I've even picked up a couple of additional recordings.

Hi Joe and others,

I was out of town for the past week and couldn't reply.

This past August the following pop hit from 1982 became an earworm but only for 3 or 4 days:

Asia - Heat of the Moment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfFjb3B9RRw

I'm afraid the  Superman  is more than an earworm because it has become the permanent soundtrack when I rise, commute and workout for the past 2 weeks now (and with no end in sight as far as my enthusiasm for it goes) ....  ???

Of course Wagner, Debussy and Brahms still reign supreme but I always want to end my day with that Prologue, Main Title and March; 5 minutes and 30 seconds of pure glory...

(I'll keep you updated on where this leads me)

:-[

Btw, here is the complete, original version with the Prologue as it appears in the film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhIlUd-Q9yg&NR=1

and here with the swoosh sounds added:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nN3v-3U-X0&feature=related

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2008, 07:58:55 AM
Relax, Mr. Pink. Williams composed a stirring, emotional score with beautiful, memorable melodies. There's no reason not to enjoy the music. Wagner, Debussy, et al., aren't going away. They'll be waiting for you when you tire of Superman. Me, I hadn't heard the soundtrack in quite a while. I'm playing it now...it's like the return of an old friend, and I'm thoroughly enjoying its company after a heavy day of opera and Roussel symphonies.

Sounds great, Sarge.

:)

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on October 05, 2008, 04:59:57 PM
(I'll keep you updated on where this leads me)

I wait with bated breath ...