What recordings should one get of his?
I've just recieved his acclaimed Beethoven symphony cycle and boy, it is great. I've always seemed to like Staatskapelle, but the recordings are brillient; big juicy and luschious, with an amazing sense of detail.
Barenboim has always reminded me of Furtwangler with his masterful control, attention to the detail (as well as capacity to understand the whole), and an ability to make the music have a message.
I am right now listening to Beethoven 7 and it really echos Furtwangler to me, but possibly better. Fantastic!
Is his Bruckner any good? What else?
Try his Mahler.
He also is an amazing Schubert conductor, but I don't if he has recorded any.
Quote from: Bunny on May 17, 2007, 11:42:20 AM
Try his Mahler.
He also is an amazing Schubert conductor, but I don't if he has recorded any.
You don't seriously think he would leave Schubert untouched did you ?
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AF2G3S02L._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Michel on May 17, 2007, 11:23:54 AM
What recordings should one get of his?
I've just recieved his acclaimed Beethoven symphony cycle and boy, it is great. I've always seemed to like Staatskapelle, but the recordings are brillient; big juicy and luschious, with an amazing sense of detail.
Barenboim has always reminded me of Furtwangler with his masterful control, attention to the detail (as well as capacity to understand the whole), and an ability to make the music have a message.
I am right now listening to Beethoven 7 and it really echos Furtwangler to me, but possibly better. Fantastic!
Is his Bruckner any good? What else?
The Furtwangler influence is no coincidence.
Warner sets - Beethoven, Schumann, Bruckner symphonies, and Mozart piano concerti. EMI sets - Mozart and Beethoven piano sonatas.
Get his recent Schumann symphony cycle as soon as possible. It's an amazing set, and I can't think of a better one.
His recent DVD LvB sonata cycle is his best of his three in that repertoire, and his earlier Mozart PC set (EMI) is good, provided you like a more romantic take. His Mahler 7 is superb, his Mahler 9 a bit less so. His Parsifal is well worth considering, too.
Quote from: BorisG on May 17, 2007, 12:39:44 PM
The Furtwangler influence is no coincidence.
What do you mean?
Quote from: Todd on May 17, 2007, 12:41:16 PM
Get his recent Schumann symphony cycle as soon as possible. It's an amazing set, and I can't think of a better one.
His recent DVD LvB sonata cycle is his best of his three in that repertoire, and his earlier Mozart PC set (EMI) is good, provided you like a more romantic take. His Mahler 7 is superb, his Mahler 9 a bit less so. His Parsifal is well worth considering, too.
Todd, you naughty boy. Any mention of Parsifal anywhere usually leads to money leaving my account sharpish. I have seen some of the clips on youtube - certainly looked like a very cool and impressive production!
It is also naughty you mention Schumann; I only just bought Szell's, argh!
I have been looking to get all of Mozart's PC's for a while, at present I only have a sporadic number of the latter ones, by a mixture of older pianists, such as Curzon, Fischer, etc, particularly on the great pianists collection.
Incidently, I have Parsifal on in the background right now, too, Knappertsbusch, from 51. Hence why it was dangerous for you to mention it; the passions will run free and I will get another version....
Quote from: Michel on May 17, 2007, 12:42:29 PM
What do you mean?
He admires Furtwangler's conducting more than any other.
Quote from: BorisG on May 17, 2007, 12:53:52 PM
He admires Furtwangler's conducting more than any other.
I had hoped for a little more information! But nevermind, I do have google.
Quote from: Michel on May 17, 2007, 12:54:33 PM
I had hoped for a little more information! But nevermind, I do have google.
Lucky guy.
Thanks!
Quote from: Michel on May 17, 2007, 12:46:07 PMIt is also naughty you mention Schumann; I only just bought Szell's, argh!
Szell is superb. Barenboim is better. Buy now.
Same for
Parsifal.
Some say that Barenboim's Chopin Nocturnes are best avoided. I have them and enjoy them a great deal. I also have his Beethoven Symphonies, but I don't enjoy these quite as much as, say, Abbado's (VPO and BPO sets), Sanderling's, Haitink's or Blomstedt's. Having said this, Barenboim does make something rather special of Symphonies Nos. 7 and 8.
Quote from: Mark on May 17, 2007, 01:41:34 PM
Some say that Barenboim's Chopin Nocturnes are best avoided. I have them and enjoy them a great deal. I also have his Beethoven Symphonies, but I don't enjoy these quite as much as, say, Abbado's (VPO and BPO sets), Sanderling's, Haitink's or Blomstedt's. Having said this, Barenboim does make something rather special of Symphonies Nos. 7 and 8.
There are so many brilliant nocturne recordings, like a lot of Chopin from the historic pianists, that it is bizarre to recommend Barenboim.
Quote from: Michel on May 17, 2007, 01:51:17 PM
There are so many brilliant nocturne recordings, like a lot of Chopin from the historic pianists, that it is bizarre to recommend Barenboim.
I once saw a small child coughing up chicken feathers out of his mouth, a deservedly bizarre event. Mark liking Barenboim's Chopin Nocturnes is far from bizarre.
FWIW, I find Barenboim's Chopin recordings of little reward.
Let me be more constructive, then.
If anyone reads Mark's post, do not get Barenboim's Nocturnes, they are not worth the money (unless you are keen to hear a load of recordings, good and bad) -- there are lots out there that are much better! In particular, I would recommend Rubinstein's in mono :)
Quote from: Todd on May 17, 2007, 01:33:31 PM
Szell is superb. Barenboim is better. Buy now.
Same for Parsifal.
Argh!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Don on May 17, 2007, 02:04:02 PM
Mark liking Barenboim's Chopin Nocturnes is far from bizarre.
With this:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RF62PWPFL._AA240_.jpg)
it might be a different story perhaps?
Quote from: orbital on May 17, 2007, 02:16:53 PM
With this:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RF62PWPFL._AA240_.jpg)
it might be a different story perhaps?
Recently heard a bit of this ... and promptly struck it from my Amazon Wish List. ;D
Quote from: Mark on May 17, 2007, 02:51:14 PM
Recently heard a bit of this ... and promptly struck it from my Amazon Wish List. ;D
Good man. If it's a duel between Barenboim's Chopin or Bach, I'd take his Chopin every time. It isn't that he's poor in Bach, but I think he plays Bach exactly as planned.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 17, 2007, 12:39:05 PM
You don't seriously think he would leave Schubert untouched did you ?
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AF2G3S02L._AA240_.jpg)
He conducted the Chicago SO in an 8th last season that was for the ages. It was the best 8th ever. Muti and the WP sounded plodding and boring in comparison. I don't know if this recording is going to be similar, but I know that it's not going to be as good. That was a once in a lifetime show. I'll probably get this set, though.
Small list of DB's greatest hits:
Conductor:
- Beethoven/Staatskapelle cycle (already praised in this thread)
- Schumann/Staatskapelle cycle (can't be praised enough)
- Mahler 5/CSO, Mahler 7 & 9/Staatskapelle (the latter two absolute top recommendations, No.5 perhaps not as clear and glorious as Chailly, but of comparable quality)
- Furtwängler Symphony No.2/CSO (miles ahead of the composer's own ferklempt effort, the orchestral execution is also superior)
- Bruckner 0, 4, 7 & 9 CSO/DG (infinitely better than the same symphonies on the later BPO/Teldec cycle, No.s 0 and 9 among my top choices for those works)
- Bruckner 2 BPO/Teldec (the one from that cycle that is truly outstanding, really warm, touching playing from the orchestra)
- Lohengrin/Staatsoper Berlin (Seiffert in outstanding voice and top orchestral playing)
- Brahms/CSO cycle (I don't know if I'm the only one, but this is one of my all-time favorite Brahms cycles. I keep returning to it. The sound of the orchestra is magnificent, warm, dark, blended and unlike anything Solti produced. Wonderful performances)
- Bayreuth Kupfer Ring (get this on DVD, singers are variable, but orchestral playing is top and the visuals are unique)
- Debussy orchestral works Orchestre de Paris (top performances, shows what a great orchestra the OdP was under DB)
- Berlioz Symphonie fantastique OdP (ditto, though in some respects I prefer DB's later CSO version, where DB seems to have applied some lessons from the HIP performers in managing orchestral timbres, colors and balances - last two movements in particular - but the OdP performance is more thrilling)
- Mozart late Symphonies ECO/EMI (forgotten, underrated, but magnificent big boned, but urgent interpretations - no porcelain or Schlagobers with this Mozart - cheaply reissued on EMI twofers)
- on DVD: last year's all-Mozart Europa Konzert of the BPO (just phenomenal playing all-around)
Pianist:
- Mozart PCs/BPO (not the earlier ECO/EMI recordings. The BPO playing is just ideal, orchestra and soloist are engaged in dialogue on the same wavelength)
- Brahms PCs/Barbirolli (broad, warm, loving performances)
- Beethoven Sonatas (hard to pick a favorite among his three cycles. I haven't heard yet his DVD cycle, which I am told is his best effort, the EMI vs DG choice I would chose in favor of DG because of the more thought out conception of some of the sonatas, others find it too cold, while the EMI cycle is more youthfully engaged)
- Schubert live Vienna recital on Erato/Warner (some of the best Moments Musicaux ever)
- Albeniz Iberia & Espana (many people play this as a folkloristic pastiche. in Barenboim's hands you realize that Albeniz is an impressionist deeply indebted to Debussy's revival of the Spanish musical idiom)
- Brahms Sonata No.3 (I don't know if this is still in print, but I prefer him to Freire and Lupu and I say that having studied and played the work myself - Barenboim is just much more attentive to, and convincing at, fitting in every detailed score instruction with a coherent concept of the whole)
Chamber:
- Beethoven Trios Du Pre/Zukerman (the joy of collective musicmaking at the highest level, preserved on disc)
- Brahms Violin Sonatas Perlman/Sony live Chicago (some of Perlman's best work as well)
- Messiaen Quatuor pour la fin du temps Yordanoff et al (reference material, the other soloists are principal chairs of the Orchestre de Paris during DB's tenure)
- the classic video of the Trout with Du Pre, Mehta et al - timeless - you can catch it on youtube as well
- Brahms Lieder with Jessye Norman
- Beethoven/Mozart wind quintets BPO/CSO players (a rare collection of top artists in rarely recorded repertoire)
Quote from: Bunny on May 17, 2007, 04:03:22 PM
He conducted the Chicago SO in an 8th last season that was for the ages. It was the best 8th ever. Muti and the WP sounded plodding and boring in comparison. I don't know if this recording is going to be similar, but I know that it's not going to be as good. That was a once in a lifetime show. I'll probably get this set, though.
I thought the 9th he did with the CSO was for the ages. I have some of the Berlin cycle on LP but don't find it nearly as convincing. Rather middle of the road. Those CSO Schubert performances in his last two seasons here were truly inspired. According to the CSO website some of those sessions were taped. here's hoping they will show up on a new CSO Resound release.
I'm going by the wrong counting then, Schubert has become very confusing. This was die Grosse I'm speaking of in NY with the CSO that was so remarkable. I'll never get the numbers right for Schubert again.
Don't forget Barenboim does piano recordings as well! He was the first to record all 32 Beethoven sonatas if I recall correctly.
Good luck with one of my favorite conductors!
Quote from: Bonehelm on May 17, 2007, 10:02:19 PM
Don't forget Barenboim does piano recordings as well! He was the first to record all 32 Beethoven sonatas if I recall correctly.
I believe that was Artur Schnabel -- a full generation or two before Barenboim's first effort.
Last year he recorded Mozart's complete piano Trios, with Znaider and Zlotnikov (it includes the Trio with clarinet). It is a very nice interpretation.
Barenboim's version of Bruckner's 3rd Symphony with the BPO (version of 1877) is also very good.
Quote from: val on May 18, 2007, 01:15:17 AM
Barenboim's version of Bruckner's 3rd Symphony with the BPO (version of 1877) is also very good.
If there is one part of Barenboim's repertoire that is often neglected, it is his Bruckner. Combining both cycles, for example 0,1,4,7,9 from the CSO and 2,3,4,5,6,9 from the BPO then there is a set of excellent performances though I do not feel he has produced a very good 8th yet.
His self-conscious attempts to emulate the "organic" style of conducting of his hero, Furtwangler, have constantly failed on disc.
His inability to achieve rhythmic lift dogs his recordings of the core repertoire.
If you like a "weighty" view then you will love Barenboim.
Simple comparisons can be made between, for example, Sawallisch's recordings of the Schubert and Schumann symphonies and the difference is, simply, astonishing.
It was unfortunate that his cycle of the Schumann symphonies was issued at the same time as Zinman's more informed cycle.
For all Zinman's faults, an inabilty to quite reach the heights of excellence, his performances were a number of rungs above Barenboim's.
To put it simply there is nothing that Barenboim has recorded that has achieved classic status and it unlikely that he ever will.
He should have stayed with the piano although, I suspect, we would not be missing much.
Quote from: Hector on May 18, 2007, 06:02:59 AM
His self-conscious attempts to emulate the "organic" style of conducting of his hero, Furtwangler, have constantly failed on disc.
His inability to achieve rhythmic lift dogs his recordings of the core repertoire.
If you like a "weighty" view then you will love Barenboim.
Simple comparisons can be made between, for example, Sawallisch's recordings of the Schubert and Schumann symphonies and the difference is, simply, astonishing.
It was unfortunate that his cycle of the Schumann symphonies was issued at the same time as Zinman's more informed cycle.
For all Zinman's faults, an inabilty to quite reach the heights of excellence, his performances were a number of rungs above Barenboim's.
To put it simply there is nothing that Barenboim has recorded that has achieved classic status and it unlikely that he ever will.
He should have stayed with the piano although, I suspect, we would not be missing much.
No, it is only you that would not be missing much.
Furtwangler sound seems far weightier to me, but maybe that is just the musty often distorted recorded sound from two centuries past.
Barenboim's inability to achieve rhythmic lift dogs his core repertoire? Nay, my toe-meters say otherwise.
Sawallisch Schubert and Schumann had their days. I suppose that is what you mean by classic status. In that someone came along with different ideas, maybe fresher ideas, should not astonish too many, though you may be excused.
Gardiner's Schumann was also informed, but it is the Barenboim that gets my toes tapping and makes me want to spend my money.
Quote from: toucan on August 11, 2010, 07:28:01 PM
Barenboim's association with Pierre Boulez deserves to be noted - only one recording of them together, though, Bartok concertos. This association gives Barenboim a well-deserved place in the history of music, as it is he who gave Boulez the idea of orchestrating Notations. And Notations is developing into Boulez's masterpiece, IMO.
Barenboim also recorded the Berg Chamber Concerto with Boulez.
QuoteHis self-conscious attempts to emulate the "organic" style of conducting of his hero, Furtwangler, have constantly failed on disc.
His inability to achieve rhythmic lift dogs his recordings of the core repertoire.
If you like a "weighty" view then you will love Barenboim.
Simple comparisons can be made between, for example, Sawallisch's recordings of the Schubert and Schumann symphonies and the difference is, simply, astonishing.
It was unfortunate that his cycle of the Schumann symphonies was issued at the same time as Zinman's more informed cycle.
For all Zinman's faults, an inabilty to quite reach the heights of excellence, his performances were a number of rungs above Barenboim's.
To put it simply there is nothing that Barenboim has recorded that has achieved classic status and it unlikely that he ever will.
He should have stayed with the piano although, I suspect, we would not be missing much.
Could not agree more. I find Barenboim's interpretations almost consistently underwhelming, both his work as a conductor and as a pianist.
Quote from: Verena on August 11, 2010, 07:49:48 PM
Could not agree more. I find Barenboim's interpretations almost consistently underwhelming, both his work as a conductor and as a pianist.
I think highly of his Mahler 9--perhaps one of the best released in the last few years.
Quote from: Verena on August 11, 2010, 07:49:48 PM
Could not agree more. I find Barenboim's interpretations almost consistently underwhelming, both his work as a conductor and as a pianist.
His first Beethoven sonata cycle is top drawer, as well as the recording he made of the Brahms concerti around the same time. As a conductor it can be hit or miss, but some of the recordings I have heard are extremely satisfying. As a conductor I find he often has a good idea in mind, but it doesn't always come off.
QuoteI think highly of his Mahler 9--perhaps one of the best released in the last few years.
Perhaps I should try that one then ::)
QuoteHis first Beethoven sonata cycle is top drawer, as well as the recording he made of the Brahms concerti around the same time. As a conductor it can be hit or miss, but some of the recordings I have heard are extremely satisfying. As a conductor I find he often has a good idea in mind, but it doesn't always come off.
Hm, I don't really like that first Beethoven cycle. I have around 20 cycles and very many individual recordings, and Barenboim, along with Brendel, are - for me - by far the least preferred of all. I miss the Guldian excitement, the Kempffian wit and singing line, the Richterian power, the Arrauian depth, the rhythmic vigor of Korstick and so many others, etc. etc. - and don't quite see what I get instead. In general, I think, I most miss some kind of "tension" in the playing. In fact, there are so many completely different pianists who I admire in Beethoven - Serkin, Anni & Edwin Fischer, Sokolov, Nat, Gilels, Brautigam, are some other favorites - but Barenboim is not among them. Perhaps I'd enjoy his live interpretations (I read somewhere that young Barenboim was much more convincing "live").
But I do have to relisten to the sonatas at some point; just today I noticed how radically my tastes can change. I don't own Barenboim's Brahms concerti, but perhaps I should.
Quote from: kishnevi on August 11, 2010, 08:17:13 PM
I think highly of his Mahler 9--perhaps one of the best released in the last few years.
Not heard that one, but I'm a very big fan of his Mahler 7. He pulls the tempi about more than most, but IMO makes it work.
Interesting discussion on DB. I admire him very much as a person, but have never really connected with his recorded performances e.g. the EMI Beethoven, which was raved about when I was still in my early 20s; I was discovering Schnabel at that time and just found the Barenboim I listened to lacking - in wit, in depth, whatever. The Mozart concerti made a similar effect on me, compared with Schnabel, the Fischers, early Brendel...I will freely admit that since that time I have heard little of his work, since I have always been too cash-strapped to risk trying. Recently, though, I essayed the Brahms concerti - and was immediately taken by #1, my (by far) preferred work of the two. Of course, Barbirolli's contribution did its bit too. Last winter I went to the Berliner Philharmonie to hear him and the Staatskapelle playa new piece by Carter, a Bartók concerto with Lupu and Mahler #10/1. I enjoyed the Carter very much although I have forgotten the title; the Bartók I found almost soporific (and have duly forgotten which one, 2 or 3) - which I put down mainly to Lupu, who seemed to be telephoning the performance in; the Mahler was, hmm, beautifully and analytically played - but no...what? "tension" and "lift" have been mentioned here, I prefer to use the German word "Sog", an undertow that pulls one along with its motion: the roll, the rise, the carol, the creation - something like that. But as you will all rush to point out, I must hear his Beethoven, Schumann, Bruckner etc. How to do that without getting into debt I don't know :-\ .
Just to point out the one Barenboim performance which (so far) I admire immensely: it is the second movement of Schubert's D 960 sonata (the DG one). I think some might even find it "soporific" but I find it unsurpassed (and I have heard and own very many recordings of that sonata indeed, usually I'm too embarassed to divulge how many :-[). Anyone know this recording by chance?
Quote from: edward on August 12, 2010, 05:35:31 AM
Not heard that one, but I'm a very big fan of his Mahler 7. He pulls the tempi about more than most, but IMO makes it work.
[goes to put that one in his shopping cart]
But I don't like his Mahler 5, which seems to stumble coming out of the starting gate and doesn't ever really recover, to my ears.
And in saying his Mahler 9 was "one of the best of recent years", I should have qualified that by saying I like the Chailly recording best of all the recent ones I've heard (have not heard, for instance, Thomas')
Quote from: toucan on August 11, 2010, 07:28:01 PM
Barenboim's association with Pierre Boulez deserves to be noted - only one recording of them together, though, Bartok concertos. This association gives Barenboim a well-deserved place in the history of music, as it is he who gave Boulez the idea of orchestrating Notations. And Notations is developing into Boulez's masterpiece, IMO.
I had the pleasure of hearing Boulez and Barenboim recreate their debut together with the Bartok PC1 with the CSO on tour in Berlin a few years ago, followed by Boulez conducting the Bartok concerto for orchestra. Unforgettable!
Quote from: toucan on August 11, 2010, 07:28:01 PM
There is something strange about Barenboim. He was born in Argentina & Spanish therefore is presumably his first language. But he speaks with a Hungarian accent.
Hardly. Hungarians overstress the first syllable of every word. Barenboim doesn't do that. His accent is rather typically Israeli, which is where he grew up mostly.
Quote from: Verena on August 12, 2010, 10:16:34 AM
Just to point out the one Barenboim performance which (so far) I admire immensely: it is the second movement of Schubert's D 960 sonata (the DG one). I think some might even find it "soporific" but I find it unsurpassed (and I have heard and own very many recordings of that sonata indeed, usually I'm too embarassed to divulge how many :-[). Anyone know this recording by chance?
Yes, that is a very fine one. I think it is in Schubert that his breadth as a musician shows most. He brings out the links both to Schubert's predecessors and to Bruckner, while also showing that he completely internalized Schubert's piano, orchestral, symphonic, and especially lieder output. Everything sings naturally. The one thing I really regret he never put on disc is the Schubert 9th he conducted with the CSO during his last season as music director, both in Chicago and at Carnegie. That was possibly the best musical performance of anything I have ever heard anywhere.
Quote from: mjwal on August 12, 2010, 08:54:40 AM
Interesting discussion on DB. I admire him very much as a person, but have never really connected with his recorded performances e.g. the EMI Beethoven, which was raved about when I was still in my early 20s;
Quote from: Verena on August 11, 2010, 09:03:02 PM
Hm, I don't really like that first Beethoven cycle. I have around 20 cycles and very many individual recordings, and Barenboim, along with Brendel, are - for me - by far the least preferred of all.
I'd have to agree with this. I blame English critical hype for the unnecessary prominence of the EMI cycle. It's nowhere near the level of depth and naturalness of the DG and later EMI video cycles. I've heard Barenboim do the Beethoven sonatas live on a number of occasions and he can be inconsistent and detached. E.g. there was a Pathetique in NY that just didn't happen (followed, however, by an absolutely mesmerizing Debussy Preludes I), but then I heard him do an unsurpassed Waldstein in Cologne where the last movement grew so organically out of the second movement like I have never heard or imagined before or since. In that sense both the DG cycle and the live EMI video cycle have their strong parts and weak parts, but overall both are significantly more interesting than his first cycle. Barenboim might not be the most passionate or witty in Beethoven, but his voicing is so refined and nuanced that it always bears repeated listening and rediscovering. For me, as an amateur pianist, I feel I often learn much more from listening to Barenboim even if some other performers might have more compelling overall tempo choices, phrasings etc. Barenboim has an orchestral sound on the piano that has to be appreciated. Each voice gets its own distinct color. If that's not your cup of tea, fine. But I find it massively rewarding.
QuoteI'd have to agree with this. I blame English critical hype for the unnecessary prominence of the EMI cycle. It's nowhere near the level of depth and naturalness of the DG and later EMI video cycles. I've heard Barenboim do the Beethoven sonatas live on a number of occasions and he can be inconsistent and detached. E.g. there was a Pathetique in NY that just didn't happen (followed, however, by an absolutely mesmerizing Debussy Preludes I), but then I heard him do an unsurpassed Waldstein in Cologne where the last movement grew so organically out of the second movement like I have never heard or imagined before or since. In that sense both the DG cycle and the live EMI video cycle have their strong parts and weak parts, but overall both are significantly more interesting than his first cycle. Barenboim might not be the most passionate or witty in Beethoven, but his voicing is so refined and nuanced that it always bears repeated listening and rediscovering. For me, as an amateur pianist, I feel I often learn much more from listening to Barenboim even if some other performers might have more compelling overall tempo choices, phrasings etc. Barenboim has an orchestral sound on the piano that has to be appreciated. Each voice gets its own distinct color. If that's not your cup of tea, fine. But I find it massively rewarding.
Interesting points in your post, thanks! Yes, I agree that his voicing is very refined and if married to slightly greater tension, it is likely to result in great music-making. Now I have to try his later cycle(s).
Quote from: Verena on August 12, 2010, 10:16:34 AM
Just to point out the one Barenboim performance which (so far) I admire immensely: it is the second movement of Schubert's D 960 sonata (the DG one). I think some might even find it "soporific" but I find it unsurpassed (and I have heard and own very many recordings of that sonata indeed, usually I'm too embarassed to divulge how many :-[). Anyone know this recording by chance?
I haven't heard it.
I have a Liszt CD where he plays the Nocturnes 1-3, the Consolations and 4 other works. It's a lovely disc. I also love his conducting in the Beethoven Symphonies. As Scarpia said, his Brahms Concertos with Barbirolli are terrifically romantic readings.
I've only heard his first DG Beethoven sonatas, which for the most part I find middle of the road.
QuoteI haven't heard it.
I have a Liszt CD where he plays the Nocturnes 1-3, the Consolations and 4 other works. It's a lovely disc. I also love his conducting in the Beethoven Symphonies. As Scarpia said, his Brahms Concertos with Barbirolli are terrifically romantic readings.
Wow. Now I do have to buy those Brahms Concertos 8) I'm still looking for a performance of those which I find completely satisfying.
Quote from: Verena on August 13, 2010, 06:49:41 PM
Wow. Now I do have to buy those Brahms Concertos 8) I'm still looking for a performance of those which I find completely satisfying.
Should be dirt cheap on a EMI twofer. 8)
Tried Gilels, Fleisher or Szell in the Brahms PC?
QuoteTried Gilels, Fleisher or Szell in the Brahms PC?
Yes. I think a mix of Gilels, Fleisher, Backhaus and Rubinstein - in great sound ::) - would be my ideal 8) On their own, I'm not completely satisfied with either of those..
Quote from: Verena on August 13, 2010, 07:19:31 PM
Yes. I think a mix of Gilels, Fleisher, Backhaus and Rubinstein - in great sound ::) - would be my ideal 8) On their own, I'm not completely satisfied with either of those..
Sorry, I said Szell, but I meant Serkin.
QuoteSorry, I said Szell, but I meant Serkin.
Yes, Serkin is also one which I really like. What I am looking for most is a spell-bindingly wonderful slow movement of the first concerto. I once heard a recording by Grinberg in bad sound which almost fit the bill, but the sound quality was too poor for my taste.
Quote from: Verena on August 13, 2010, 07:19:31 PM
Yes. I think a mix of Gilels, Fleisher, Backhaus and Rubinstein - in great sound ::) - would be my ideal 8) On their own, I'm not completely satisfied with either of those..
You're a hard man to please!
Quote from: Verena on August 14, 2010, 05:51:29 AM
What I am looking for most is a spell-bindingly wonderful slow movement of the first concerto.
How about Curzon (with Szell)? But I suppose you've already heard that one. Who hasn't?
Two with slow movements I really love: Grimaud/Sanderling and Zimerman/Bernstein.
Sarge
Quote from: Verena on August 14, 2010, 05:51:29 AM
Yes, Serkin is also one which I really like. What I am looking for most is a spell-bindingly wonderful slow movement of the first concerto.
The slowest one that I have is the Barenboim. He's 15:44.
QuoteYou're a hard man to please!
... woman ... ;D
QuoteHow about Curzon (with Szell)? But I suppose you've already heard that one. Who hasn't?
Two with slow movements I really love: Grimaud/Sanderling and Zimerman/Bernstein.
I don't really like the Curzon; don't know about the others; I have to try them, especially Zimerman - thanks!
QuoteThe slowest one that I have is the Barenboim. He's 15:44.
This has now found its way into my shopping basket..
Quote from: George on August 14, 2010, 07:14:00 AM
The slowest one that I have is the Barenboim. He's 15:44.
Quote from: Verena on August 14, 2010, 07:46:53 AM
I have to try them, especially Zimerman - thanks!
Zimerman and Lenny take 16:28. I don't know if you'll find it spell-binding but "
there are miracles of fine grading from Zimerman as well as clear-eyed good sense, and playing of rare pedigree and a chameleon-like sensitivity to context from Bernstein and the Vienna Philharmonic." But then Richard Osborne goes on to say it's also "
so narcissistic, so intolerably self-regarding." Now
there is a man hard to satisfy. (I'm pretty sure I got the gender right this time ;D )
Sarge
QuoteAh, that explains it!
;D
QuoteZimerman and Lenny take 16:28. I don't know if you'll find it spell-binding but "there are miracles of fine grading from Zimerman as well as clear-eyed good sense, and playing of rare pedigree and a chameleon-like sensitivity to context from Bernstein and the Vienna Philharmonic." But then Richard Osborne goes on to say it's also "so narcissistic, so intolerably self-regarding." Now there is a man hard to satisfy. (I'm pretty sure I got the gender right this time ;D )
The idea that it sounds "narcissistic" is not something that will prevent me from trying it. "Narcissism" is not a category which I usually associate with musical interpretations. ::)
Quote from: Verena on August 14, 2010, 09:17:45 AM
The idea that it sounds "narcissistic" is not something that will prevent me from trying it. "Narcissism" is not a category which I usually associate with musical interpretations. ::)
Isn't it silly? Self-regarding? What does that even mean? But it's a frequent and annoying cliché in Gramophone reviews...usually written about musicians who take extra time or care over phrasing. That is exactly what I want and expect from great artists.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 14, 2010, 09:24:39 AM
Isn't it silly? Self-regarding? What does that even mean? But it's a frequent and annoying cliché in Gramophone reviews...usually written about musicians who take extra time or care over phrasing. That is exactly what I want and expect from great artists.
I don't know what narcissistic really means, maybe what he means is self-indulgent. With Lenny sometimes that is good, sometimes not, at least in my view.
Quote from: Scarpia on August 14, 2010, 09:30:50 AM
I don't know what narcissistic really means...
The Disciple
by Oscar Wilde
When Narcissus died the pool of his pleasure changed from a cup of sweet waters into a cup of salt tears, and the Oreads came weeping through the woodland that they might sing to the pool and give it comfort.
And when they saw that the pool had changed from a cup of sweet waters into a cup of salt tears, they loosened the green tresses of their hair and cried to the pool and said, 'We do not wonder that you should mourn in this manner for Narcissus, so beautiful was he.'
'But was Narcissus beautiful?' said the pool.
'Who should know that better than you?' answered the Oreads. 'Us did he ever pass by, but you he sought for, and would lie on your banks and look down at you, and in the mirror of your waters he would mirror his own beauty.'
And the pool answered, 'But I loved Narcissus because, as he lay on my banks and looked down at me, in the mirror of his eyes I saw ever my own beauty mirrored.'
Quote from: Scarpia on August 14, 2010, 09:30:50 AM
I don't know what narcissistic really means, maybe what he means is self-indulgent.
Could be...but what does self-indulgent mean in a musical context? Why does lavishing extra care on a composer's music make the conductor or soloist self-indulgent? I understand tempo and phrasing are matters of taste. I don't expect everyone to like what I like. But music is an interpretive art. Every performance is different; in every performance choices are made. What I don't understand is a critic complaining about "narcissism" when the choice is a slower tempo or sensitive phrasing or attention to detail.
Gramophone critics reserve this criticism for musicians they don't like. They never said Klemperer was a narcissist for slow tempos but Bernstein was constantly bashed with this tired and lazy label.
Sarge
QuoteIsn't it silly? Self-regarding? What does that even mean? But it's a frequent and annoying cliché in Gramophone reviews...usually written about musicians who take extra time or care over phrasing. That is exactly what I want and expect from great artists.
Yes, this characterization sounds like gramophone - which is accidentally a rather narcicisstic journal ("The world's best classical music reviews"). In fact, the reviewers sometimes display a style of writing for which the term "narcicisstic" seems far more appropriate than for a particular musical interpretation. Particularly annyoing, for example, is one reviewer who often cites poetry rather than talking about the quality of the interpretation in more concrete terms.
Quote from: Verena on August 14, 2010, 09:56:20 AM
... one reviewer who often cites poetry rather than talking about the quality of the interpretation in more concrete terms.
I hope that that was not a subtle irony regarding my quotation of Wilde. >:( ;D
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 14, 2010, 10:15:10 AM
I hope that that was not a subtle irony regarding my quotation of Wilde. >:( ;D
I thought the same thing. ;D :D ;D
Seriously, Verena's good people, I am sure she meant no disrespect. :)
QuoteI hope that that was not a subtle irony regarding my quotation of Wilde. >:( ;D
Not at all, Antoine. I responded to Sarge's post before I read yours .. And I see no reason to be ironical anyway. The reference to Wild is certainly apt.
I was thinking especially of one reviewer (if I remember correctly, Bryce Morrison) who likes to cite great English poets to describe e.g., a pianist's interpretation of a Liszt work. This is what I found somewhat narcicisstic (giving the impression of showing off one's erudition), or at least exremely unhelpful (because when I read a review in a journal i) I want to learn something substantial about the pianist's tone, technique, etc. rather than vague suggestions, and b) especially Non-British readers are likely to be unfamiliar with the poems from which he cited a short excerpt (so it's not particularly helpful in any case).
Quote from: Verena on August 14, 2010, 11:13:41 AM
Not at all, Antoine. I responded to Sarge's post before I read yours .. And I see no reason to be ironical anyway. The reference to Wild is certainly apt.
I was thinking especially of one reviewer (if I remember correctly, Bryce Morrison) who likes to cite great English poets to describe e.g., a pianist's interpretation of a Liszt work. This is what I found somewhat narcicisstic (giving the impression of showing off one's erudition), or at least exremely unhelpful (because when I read a review in a journal i) I want to learn something substantial about the pianist's tone, technique, etc. rather than vague suggestions, and b) especially Non-British readers are likely to be unfamiliar with the poems from which he cited a short excerpt (so it's not particularly helpful in any case).
Understood, Verena. We are friends again! :D
QuoteUnderstood, Verena. We are friends again! :D
Good to hear :D
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OA1hIgdZL._SS400_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kvNGErYzL._SS400_.jpg)
"Wait, Mr. Barenboim, why don't we just take another quick photo for the Brahms set and get that out of the way."
Quote from: Michel on May 17, 2007, 11:23:54 AM
What recordings should one get of his?
I've just recieved his acclaimed Beethoven symphony cycle and boy, it is great. I've always seemed to like Staatskapelle, but the recordings are brillient; big juicy and luschious, with an amazing sense of detail.
Barenboim has always reminded me of Furtwangler with his masterful control, attention to the detail (as well as capacity to understand the whole), and an ability to make the music have a message.
I am right now listening to Beethoven 7 and it really echos Furtwangler to me, but possibly better. Fantastic!
Is his Bruckner any good? What else?
I like Barenboim pretty darn good. I've been reassessing some of the his recordings that I own and much of them are quite good indeed. I'm particularly taken with his Liszt
Faust Symphony recording with Domingo on vocals with the Berliners. I also like his Bruckner and Brahms recordings. I've heard good things about his Beethoven, if you enjoy Beethoven, this will probably be something you'll purchase at some point. Barenboim's Wagner recordings (the ones I've so far --- I own his
Ring cycle) are also excellent from a performance point-of-view, but the audio quality in his
Ring cycle isn't that great because of the loud stage noises.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2011, 07:11:47 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OA1hIgdZL._SS400_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kvNGErYzL._SS400_.jpg)
"Wait, Mr. Barenboim, why don't we just take another quick photo for the Brahms set and get that out of the way."
And one more fro Mozart!
[asin]B0007PHAYM[/asin]
Or Beethoven!
[asin]B00076YOPY[/asin]
Or Liszt (to save money, we'll even use the same picture, cropped differently and airbrushed - no one will ever notice!):
[asin]B004RUF04A[/asin]
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 23, 2011, 01:25:01 AM
And one more fro Mozart!
[asin]B0007PHAYM[/asin]
Or Beethoven!
[asin]B00076YOPY[/asin]
Or Liszt (to save money, we'll even use the same picture, cropped differently and airbrushed - no one will ever notice!):
[asin]B004RUF04A[/asin]
Haha!! They are like paprazzi photos taken on his way to the concert hall. Great way to save money, way to go production designer.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 23, 2011, 03:40:03 AM
Haha!! They are like paprazzi photos taken on his way to the concert hall. Great way to save money, way to go production designer.
The last (Liszt) is only just being released, so it is possible there will be even more!
Quote from: Verena on August 14, 2010, 11:13:41 AM
Not at all, Antoine. I responded to Sarge's post before I read yours .. And I see no reason to be ironical anyway. The reference to Wild is certainly apt.
I was thinking especially of one reviewer (if I remember correctly, Bryce Morrison) who likes to cite great English poets to describe e.g., a pianist's interpretation of a Liszt work. This is what I found somewhat narcicisstic (giving the impression of showing off one's erudition), or at least exremely unhelpful (because when I read a review in a journal i) I want to learn something substantial about the pianist's tone, technique, etc. rather than vague suggestions, and b) especially Non-British readers are likely to be unfamiliar with the poems from which he cited a short excerpt (so it's not particularly helpful in any case).
Oh, Bryce Morrison's stuff can be skipped immediately.
He was one of the main champions in the Hatto hoax, loving every thing "she" recorded, and waxing ever so poetic about the specifics of her style - which of course was nonexistent.
Morrison's purple prose is the sure sign he's to be avoided.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/815c%2BbRa5ZL._SL500_.jpg)
Found this in a used shop today, sealed and after reading a great review in MusicWeb. I decided to pick it up. I have only listened to the first CD, but so far I like what I hear. He plays this music with charm and beauty, and isn't afraid to flex his muscles when called for. The piano is captured beautifully. It was recorded in the old Teldec studios.
Anyone else have this set?
Quote from: George on October 25, 2019, 05:29:09 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/815c%2BbRa5ZL._SL500_.jpg)
Found this in a used shop today, sealed and after reading a great review in MusicWeb. I decided to pick it up. I have only listened to the first CD, but so far I like what I hear. He plays this music with charm and beauty, and isn't afraid to flex his muscles when called for. The piano is captured beautifully. It was recorded in the old Teldec studios.
Anyone else have this set?
I have it. Listening right now to CD1, I agree with your assessment.
Quote from: George on October 25, 2019, 05:29:09 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/815c%2BbRa5ZL._SL500_.jpg)
Found this in a used shop today, sealed and after reading a great review in MusicWeb. I decided to pick it up. I have only listened to the first CD, but so far I like what I hear. He plays this music with charm and beauty, and isn't afraid to flex his muscles when called for. The piano is captured beautifully. It was recorded in the old Teldec studios.
Anyone else have this set?
It is on Spotify and I listened to it. Really good in all respects.
Quote from: Florestan on October 28, 2019, 02:29:51 AM
I have it. Listening right now to CD1, I agree with your assessment.
I'll be curious if your opinion changes as you listen to some of the later sonatas. I found the disc with D894 and D959 to be disappointing. His tempos in the fast movements are heavy and plodding.
Quote from: George on October 28, 2019, 04:21:40 AM
I'll be curious if your opinion changes as you listen to some of the later sonatas. I found the disc with D894 and D959 to be disappointing. His tempos in the fast movements are heavy and plodding.
I'm halfway through disc 2; so far so good.
Quote from: Florestan on October 28, 2019, 04:24:12 AM
I'm halfway through disc 2; so far so good.
Good news!
I had suspected that I enjoyed the first disc because it contained sonatas that I wasn't familiar with and therefore haven't imprinted on with another pianist. So, I was more open to his interpretation. I'm hoping the rest of the set impresses me more like the first disc did.
I've finished the first 2 CDs. His tempi are rather on the slow side but that's not a problem for me. The performance is poetic and the piano sound is warm. I like it very much.
Cross post from WAYLT thread
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Disc 4, D894 & D958
George said about this disc that the tempi in the outer movements are "heavy and plodding". While I agree they are on the slow side (but then again, the first mvt of D894 is marked Molto moderato e cantabile), it didn't seem to me that they detracted anything from my enjoyment. Barenboim lets the music breathe and take his time to smell all the roses in the garden. An approach which imho works better in this music than rushing headlong through it. I like it.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Vj3iQgZwL._SL1417_.jpg)
One of the several WTC recordings on piano I've been investigating recently is Barenboim's. I've seen two reviews, .htm]one positive (https://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-WTC2-Barenboim%5BBright) the other rather negative (https://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-WTC1-Barenboim.htm) but not a pan.
I have a low threshold for enjoyment, and can listen to Barenboim's Bach without any reservations.
8)
Quote from: Florestan on November 02, 2019, 06:11:09 AM
Cross post from WAYLT thread
(https://s12emagst.akamaized.net/products/922/921608/images/res_ae1ba701acefe701e828f47721c01d2c_full.jpg)
Disc 4, D894 & D958
George said about this disc that the tempi in the outer movements are "heavy and plodding". While I agree they are on the slow side (but then again, the first mvt of D894 is marked Molto moderato e cantabile), it didn't seem to me that they detracted anything from my enjoyment. Barenboim lets the music breathe and take his time to smell all the roses in the garden. An approach which imho works better in this music than rushing headlong through it. I like it.
Rushing headlong is not I would want in Schubert either. Richter's Schubert (my personal favorite Schubert performer) is usually on the slow side (and often slower than most), but to me, it never sounds heavy and plodding. His Schubert is dramatic, exciting and alive. Barenboim's Schubert, like his Beethoven DG set, adds little hesitations here and there which impede the forward momentum of the music. When I am in the mood for that, Barenboim's approach can be enjoyable. It's just that I am not often in the mood for that, at least not often.
I'm glad that you are enjoying his Schubert, though.
I plan to compare Barenboim's performances in this set to those in Kempff's DG set, as I am curious to see which one I like more. I also don't have room on the shelf for both.
Quote from: George on November 02, 2019, 07:55:46 AM
Richter's Schubert is usually on the slow side, but to me, it never sounds heavy and plodding.
Richter's Schubert is unknown territory to me, which I should explore asap.
Quote
Barenboim's Schubert, like his Beethoven DG set, adds little hesitations here and there which impede the forward momentum of the music. When I am in the mood for that, Barenboim's approach can be enjoyable. It's just that I am not often in the mood for that, at least not often.
I'm glad that you are enjoying his Schubert, though.
George, please, don't get me wrong. My post was not meant as a criticism to your taste or judgment --- God forbid! --- but as my two cents on Barenboim's Schubert.
Quote from: Florestan on November 02, 2019, 09:27:55 AM
Richter's Schubert is unknown territory to me, which I should explore asap.
I think you are in for a treat!
QuoteGeorge, please, don't get me wrong. My post was not meant as a criticism to your taste or judgment --- God forbid! --- but as my two cents on Barenboim's Schubert.
Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I read your post as your take on Barenboim's Schubert, which is always welcome. Myself, I have yet to form an opinion. I'd like to come back at a later date, but first I want to see how Kempff's set stands up. I never loved his Schubert, though I enjoyed it enough to keep it, especially because it's the most complete set I have owned.
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Disc 1, D537 & D568
I decided today to begin a second listen to this set and so far, I am enjoying this a lot more than before. Maybe I am in a more relaxed mood, I don't know. What I do know is that I am glad I learned early on in my collecting to not judge something on just one listen. Heck, I didn't even like Richter (my favorite pianist) very much the first time I heard him.