What are you listening to now?

[Mister Sharpe]

I believe the answer to Mahlerian and sanantonio's discussion may be found in Schoenberg and Hollywood Modernism by Kenneth H. Marcus (Cambridge Univ. Press); see and hear the author himself:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_u0-3dLsCw

[San Antone]

Yes, actually, a wholesale revision of one's approach to form is unusual and marks off a stylistic shift.  Your argument that he wasn't influenced by the currents around him just because you don't think he was is far weaker than suggesting that the shift being in tandem with similar shifts everywhere else was not a coincidence.

Once again, your entire argument boils down to saying that you don't believe it's true because you don't believe it's true.  Fine, he was not any more susceptible to influence than others.  That doesn't mean that he was impervious to it.  He was an observer of the musical trends around him, and even as characteristically idiosyncratic a work as Pierrot lunaire was written in response to a commission for just such a setting (although the idea of the chamber ensemble accompaniment was certainly his, as was the weighting of the balance towards the instruments rather than the voice).

The reason I believe he was less likely to being overly influenced by other composers (especially Hollywood composers, which is where this conversation began) was because of his personal history as someone who developed an entire method of composition, his history as a teacher, lecturer and author and his being more of a leader than follower.  Of course this does not mean that he did not respond to the requirements of commissions or adopted/adapted current trends to his own purposes.  But from reading your posts, I got the impression you were making the case that Schoenberg was like a weak reed susceptible to any wind.

[San Antone]

I believe the answer to Mahlerian and sanantonio's discussion may be found in Schoenberg and Hollywood Modernism by Kenneth H. Marcus (Cambridge Univ. Press); see and hear the author himself:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_u0-3dLsCw

That book documents Schoenberg's influence on those around him rather than the opposite.  The fact that he regularly played tennis with George Gershwin does not mean he was influenced by Gershwin's musical activities.

[mc ukrneal]

This music means alot to me. To me its a perfect expression of emotions and very near to my heart.

http://walboi.blogspot.nl/2016/10/goetz-hermann-1840-1876-complete-piano.html?spref=tw

So I have a disc of his supposed 'complete' piano works performed by Adrian Ruiz. I like it and am enthusiastic about the music, but as I compare the sets, the 'complete' in his title really just means published Opus works. Thus I have Op 7, 8 and 13. I am missing all those other little works that make up bout 45 minutes of music on that CPO set. Do you think it's worth picking up just for that? Here is what I have for reference:
[asin]B000005WWN[/asin]

[San Antone]

[Harry]

So I have a disc of his supposed 'complete' piano works performed by Adrian Ruiz. I like it and am enthusiastic about the music, but as I compare the sets, the 'complete' in his title really just means published Opus works. Thus I have Op 7, 8 and 13. I am missing all those other little works that make up bout 45 minutes of music on that CPO set. Do you think it's worth picking up just for that? Here is what I have for reference:
[asin]B000005WWN[/asin]

Yes Neal I think so, for the CPO set is only 9,99€ and the pieces are well worth having.

[Mahlerian]

The reason I believe he was less likely to being overly influenced by other composers (especially Hollywood composers, which is where this conversation began) was because of his personal history as someone who developed an entire method of composition, his history as a teacher, lecturer and author and his being more of a leader than follower.  Of course this does not mean that he did not respond to the requirements of commissions or adopted/adapted current trends to his own purposes.  But from reading your posts, I got the impression you were making the case that Schoenberg was like a weak reed susceptible to any wind.

What?

It would take an absurdly black-and-white view of the nature of inspiration to draw that from my posts.  I said that he was influenced in certain aspects by his new homeland.  You took this somehow to mean that he changed his aesthetic wholesale based on whatever was going on around him?

You even say yourself what I was arguing, that Schoenberg "adopted/adapted current trends to his own purposes."  That's exactly what I was saying.

[San Antone]

What?

It would take an absurdly black-and-white view of the nature of inspiration to draw that from my posts.  I said that he was influenced in certain aspects by his new homeland.  You took this somehow to mean that he changed his aesthetic wholesale based on whatever was going on around him?

You even say yourself what I was arguing, that Schoenberg "adopted/adapted current trends to his own purposes."  That's exactly what I was saying.

This is where I think we got off on the wrong foot:

Sabine Feisst convincingly argued that Schoenberg's style was in fact influenced by the Hollywood milieu in a number of his works of the American period

In fact, I disagree with Ms. Feisst and by extension, you, for posting it.

[Mahlerian]

This is where I think we got off on the wrong foot:

In fact, I disagree with Ms. Fiesst and by extension, you, for posting it.

So you think that Schoenberg lived in a bubble where he wasn't influenced by anything around him for 16 years or so?

Have you read Feisst's book?  How can you possibly disagree with her without knowing her arguments?

[Harry]

Could you Mahlerian and Sanantonio take this discussion to another thread by your own making, after all this is the wrong place to do so.

[Karl Henning]

That book documents Schoenberg's influence on those around him rather than the opposite.  The fact that he regularly played tennis with George Gershwin does not mean he was influenced by Gershwin's musical activities.

True enough.

[San Antone]

So you think that Schoenberg lived in a bubble where he wasn't influenced by anything around him for 16 years or so?

Have you read Feisst's book?  How can you possibly disagree with her without knowing her arguments?

As I have posted before, yes, he did not live in a bubble but that does not translate into an overt Hollywood influence.  He benefited from living in Hollywood in a variety of ways: as a teacher, recipient of commissions, and opportunities to have his works performed, but I think he was least influenced by the music being written around him.

Judging from what you posted of Feisst's evidence, it sounds like she published a lot of speculation and little else.  Ghost Sonata's book is more relevant, and documents Schoenberg's influence on those around him more than the reverse.

[Florestan]

Could you Mahlerian and Sanantonio take this discussion to another thread by your own making, after all this is the wrong place to do so.

I was going to politely ask them the same thing. Surely there must be a Schoenberg thread.

[San Antone]

Could you Mahlerian and Sanantonio take this discussion to another thread by your own making, after all this is the wrong place to do so.

Probably a good idea. But I am out to run some errands, and have pretty much said everything I have to say on the subject.  Sorry for the interruption.

[Karl Henning]

Again:

Schoenberg
Kol Nidre, Op.39
Jn Shirley-Quirk
BBC Chorus & Symphony
M. Boulez presiding

[Florestan]

Sorry for the interruption.

Don´t get me wrong, the discussion is interesting, but it just doesn´t belong here.

[aligreto]

Liszt: Mazeppa [Noseda]....





Exhilarating, airy performance and I particularly liked the performance of the brass section.

[aligreto]

Yes, well, you'll see from my post following that one that I won't be rushing to make a purchase of the Saga Symphony myself.

I have personally only had positive [not necessarily universally overwhelming] reactions to Leif's music thus far. I feel more though that I am purchasing for the future more than the present as I know that his music will grow on me the more that I listen to it and understand it.

[marvinbrown]

Mozart Symphony No.1 E flat K.16 and No.4 D major K.19, Sir Neville conducting the ASMF




Sarge

  SPLENDID!......... and from here you shall work your way right up to the the last CD on vol.2 with the flawless Symphonies 40 and 41 "Jupiter".  Please tell me you have vol.2 in your collection Sarge??

  Happy Listening

[Karl Henning]

Schoenberg
Friede auf Erden, Op.13
BBC Singers & Symphony
M. Boulez presiding