Great composers with mental disorders?

[relm1]

Do you think some of the great composers like Mozart and Beethoven suffered from a mental disorder that might have contributed to their skills?

Though autism wasn't identified until 1944, I read that Mozart "was said to have had repeated facial expressions and was in need of constant motion of his hands and feet. His hearing was also very sensitive. By studying letters between the musician and his family, historians have shared that one day Mozart was having a bit of a bored moment so he jumped up and hurdled over tables and chairs, meowed like a cat and did somersaults."  We can never know if Mozart really was autistic, but his behavior seems to be on the spectrum along with his talent of hearing a piece once and replaying it note for note.

Of course there are many examples of composers who suffered depression like Beethoven, Schumann, Tchaikovsky, and Rachmaninoff.

I wonder if this idea falls into the perception of composers as temperamental loners or if there might be something to the idea that some of the greatest composers had mental disorders and to what extent that contributed to their works. 

[Todd]

Too much speculation is required in most cases.  It's certainly possible that certain composers were autistic or suffered mental illness, but we cannot know for sure except in the cases where we already know.  I'm not entirely sure what the specific value in that knowledge may be.

[relm1]

Too much speculation is required in most cases.  It's certainly possible that certain composers were autistic or suffered mental illness, but we cannot know for sure except in the cases where we already know.  I'm not entirely sure what the specific value in that knowledge may be.

It is interesting to me.  That is the value in having this understanding. 

[Cato]

Concerning autism specifically: I would think not.  I have dealt with autistic children, and those with Asperger's, and if one is truly autistic, such a person is not functional enough to have a wife and children, and certainly would not have had the sense of humor found in Mozart's music and in his life.  Irony and subtle humor are often lost even on those diagnosed with Asperger's.  My wife right now is struggling with a high-school sophomore with Asperger's, because he is supposed to understand and report on examples of the irony in O. Henry stories.

I have known adults with Asperger's and autism, and at times they are like visitors from another planet, especially the latter, and their conditions affect their emotions in a way which, I would think, would prevent them from composing e.g. Mozart's Symphony #39. 

I suppose it would be not be impossible for someone with these syndromes to compose music, but I am skeptical that their works would be on the level of Mozart or any other composer of note.

[Jo498]

Somewhere I also read a posthumous diagnosis with Tourette-Syndrom for Mozart. Frankly, I think this is nonsense. Mozart was quirky and enjoyed scatological humour but so did apparently most of his family, these were pre-victorian times... His letters or reports about him from contemporaries show nothing of the distant, unemotional or whatever behavior associated with Asperger's. He also moved too frequently (so did Beethoven), so I don't think they showed obsessive-compulsive behavior.

Except for composers who actually spent some time in psychiatric care (often supposedly late stage syphilis-related) I think a case could probably be made that Bruckner suffered from a bunch of neurotic behaviors, some kind of obsessive-compulsive disorder. But I'd even be wary in this case despite a lot of material for his odd habits and behavior.

[Mirror Image]

I think it's easy to have misconceptions about a composer and I don't think knowing whether a composer had a mental illness or not is a very fruitful discussion because a composer's music doesn't always reflect their mental state. Look at Mahler's 6th for example. He wrote the work in one of the happiest periods of his life.

[relm1]

Concerning autism specifically: I would think not.  I have dealt with autistic children, and those with Asperger's, and if one is truly autistic, such a person is not functional enough to have a wife and children, and certainly would not have had the sense of humor found in Mozart's music and in his life.  Irony and subtle humor are often lost even on those diagnosed with Asperger's.  My wife right now is struggling with a high-school sophomore with Asperger's, because he is supposed to understand and report on examples of the irony in O. Henry stories.

I have known adults with Asperger's and autism, and at times they are like visitors from another planet, especially the latter, and their conditions affect their emotions in a way which, I would think, would prevent them from composing e.g. Mozart's Symphony #39. 

I suppose it would be not be impossible for someone with these syndromes to compose music, but I am skeptical that their works would be on the level of Mozart or any other composer of note.

Interesting to hear from someone who has real experience with this. 

Did you see this documentary "Musical Genius" about that blind autistic guy with amazing musical talent: https://youtu.be/mzDBFCvIvk4?t=49

I wonder if there is a point where someone has some characteristics of Aspergers but is high functioning enough to be able to create substantial works of great depth.   

[relm1]

I think it's easy to have misconceptions about a composer and I don't think knowing whether a composer had a mental illness or not is a very fruitful discussion because a composer's music doesn't always reflect their mental state. Look at Mahler's 6th for example. He wrote the work in one of the happiest periods of his life.

At the root of the question is what is the nature of genius.  Is it something normal people can achieve?  I believe Mozart level genius is not something that can be learned.   The kid on the documentary I mentioned seems to have some of the same abilities in terms of improvisation, instant recall of a piece of music in its entirety, but is very autistic (can't answer a question like "what is 2+2"). 

[Mahlerian]

At the root of the question is what is the nature of genius.  Is it something normal people can achieve?  I believe Mozart level genius is not something that can be learned.   The kid on the documentary I mentioned seems to have some of the same abilities in terms of improvisation, instant recall of a piece of music in its entirety, but is very autistic (can't answer a question like "what is 2+2").

On the other hand, you have to realize that Mozart had more training in music as a preteen than the average musician gets by the time they finish college.  He grew up in a family where he was always surrounded by music, played multiple instruments, was taught theory and practice (and everything else) by his father, who was an accomplished non-genius.

You could say "talent" and be done with it, but even a man of Mozart's innate gifts, without Mozart's level of rigorous training, would not have become "the Mozart."

Also, Mozart was certainly able to do math.  In fact, it was his favorite subject, after music, of course.  He was anything but a savant.  Beethoven is famous for being poor at math, but he didn't receive the level of education that Mozart did.

[Jo498]

It is also a non-sequitur that only because there are autistic savants who can do amazing things but fail at mundane ones, all or most geniuses who could do amazing thinks must share some of the disorders of the autistic savants. Not only does it not follow, it seems obviously wrong. Because we know of people who did "savant-style" genius things but were otherwise fairly normal.

Furthermore, the accomplishments of e.g. Mozart as a composer are not directly related to the memory and performance stunts he did as a kid. There are probably quite a few people with such an amazing memory that they can write down a piece after having heard it only once (and it also seems that that story with the Miserere was exaggerated).
But there are far fewer people who could compose an amazing array of innovative masterpiece in several genres for 15 years or more as Mozart did.

[relm1]

Lots of good points.  It definitely sounds like Mozart was not a savant.  I am now convinced.

[Ken B]

I think it's easy to have misconceptions about a composer and I don't think knowing whether a composer had a mental illness or not is a very fruitful discussion because a composer's music doesn't always reflect their mental state. Look at Mahler's 6th for example. He wrote the work in one of the happiest periods of his life.

And conversely, Stravinsky wrote the Symphony In C the year his wife and daughter died. Biography != music.

[relm1]

Kalevi Aho's early works were very dark.  He explains this as his belief in his imminent death even though he was a young man.  Perhaps that is part of the finnish mentality.  After he had his children around 1980, his music started taking on a newly optimistic temperament that he has kept since.

[Monsieur Croche]

Do you think some of the great composers like Mozart and Beethoven suffered from a mental disorder that might have contributed to their skills?

The word disorder, used as a qualifier for some mental / behavioral conditions, is used because it is apposite.

No mental disorder ever "contributed" to any ones ability to do, pretty much, any thing.

To date, history is crammed with great creative geniuses -- the majority of whom had no "disorder" whatsoever.  Those very few who have a mental / behavioral disorder accomplish what they can despite their having a disorder.

The romanticized / glamorized notion that a disorder automatically means 'more than average intelligent and creative' is just that... a romanticized and glamorized notion based on no facts whatsoever, and still clearly in the air, needs debunking wherever it shows up.


Best regards

[relm1]

The word disorder, used as a qualifier for some mental / behavioral conditions, is used because it is apposite.

No mental disorder ever "contributed" to any ones ability to do, pretty much, any thing.

To date, history is crammed with great creative geniuses -- the majority of whom had no "disorder" whatsoever.  Those very few who have a mental / behavioral disorder accomplish what they can despite their having a disorder.

The romanticized / glamorized notion that a disorder automatically means 'more than average intelligent and creative' is just that... a romanticized and glamorized notion based on no facts whatsoever, and still clearly in the air, needs debunking wherever it shows up.


Best regards

As usual, you are wrong.  I am actually diagnosed with multiple cognitive disorders and am a professional musician with a masters degree in composition.  I have multiple struggles that I have no interest in explaining other than to say you are again wrong.

[André]

Glenn Gould was viewed by many as a genius, by others as a charlatan. He certainly had very peculiar habits, with a tendency to withdraw from public view that increased with time. He died at 50 after spending his last years mostly as a self-medicated recluse obsessed with imaginary ills and ailments.  The jury is still out on him, but "charlatan" has mostly been dropped from the list of names and epithets he conjures now.

[Mister Sharpe]

Glenn Gould was viewed by many as a genius, by others as a charlatan. He certainly had very peculiar habits, with a tendency to withdraw from public view that increased with time. He died at 50 after spending his last years mostly as a self-medicated recluse obsessed with imaginary ills and ailments.  The jury is still out on him, but "charlatan" has mostly been dropped from the list of names and epithets he conjures now.

I believe he was genius and charlatan both (perhaps a bit strong that latter word; I like to think of him as 'playful') and I count myself a fan.  As George Szell famously said, "That nut is a genius." Yup.

[relm1]

Glenn Gould was viewed by many as a genius, by others as a charlatan. He certainly had very peculiar habits, with a tendency to withdraw from public view that increased with time. He died at 50 after spending his last years mostly as a self-medicated recluse obsessed with imaginary ills and ailments.  The jury is still out on him, but "charlatan" has mostly been dropped from the list of names and epithets he conjures now.

He had severe mental illness.  By the looks of it either paranoid schizophrenia or some severe OCD.  The evidence is strong that he had mental disorders like paranoid schizophrenia and social anxiety disorder which is a form of OCD.

Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIc_USZtIiE

[kishnevi]

Concerning autism specifically: I would think not.  I have dealt with autistic children, and those with Asperger's, and if one is truly autistic, such a person is not functional enough to have a wife and children, and certainly would not have had the sense of humor found in Mozart's music and in his life.  Irony and subtle humor are often lost even on those diagnosed with Asperger's.  My wife right now is struggling with a high-school sophomore with Asperger's, because he is supposed to understand and report on examples of the irony in O. Henry stories.

I have known adults with Asperger's and autism, and at times they are like visitors from another planet, especially the latter, and their conditions affect their emotions in a way which, I would think, would prevent them from composing e.g. Mozart's Symphony #39. 

I suppose it would be not be impossible for someone with these syndromes to compose music, but I am skeptical that their works would be on the level of Mozart or any other composer of note.

I would have to go back and read up on the details, but the last time I read a biography of Beethoven, I spotted a number of  things which suggested he was autistic.  Of course, it's impossible to say who in the past was truly autistic, and no one composing in the present has opened up about themselves if they are.
But autism is a wide spectrum, and there are many high functioning autistic individuals who to all outward appearance leave entirely normal lives. I am one, apparently*, and the main impact is not ever becoming intimate enough with others at a level that leads to marriage, family or deep friendship: but I am deeply introverted, meaning this doesn't matter very much to me. I don't suffer by being alone.  If anything, extended contact with others IRL is highly stressful. It took me over thirty years to become comfortable with talking to strangers, and that happened through taking a job that requires it, in retail sales.
I should add that while we may process emotion differently, we have the normal range.  I seem to be more self aware about emotions, recognizing them and controlling them in a cognitive way that most people don't often use.  Which can make me seem emotionless...but I am not.
And once we figure out irony, it becomes our favorite sort of humor.

*I have never been formally labelled.  About fifteen years ago I realized I had all the classic signs, and fit the pattern so well that I could hardly be anything else:  but at that age (early forties) there seemed to be no benefit to obtaining an official diagnosis.

[Jo498]

Apart from the general problem of diagnosing 200+ years later from vague recollections and descriptions I think we are today in a period of "pathologizing" everything. What was considered a more or less harmless spleen or quirk until a few decades ago is nowadays diagnosed as some mental disorder one some "spectrum". (The converse cases that were considered pathological deviances but are now regarded as within the normal I will not mention but some of them are also obvious and altogether this simply shows that psychiatry and related fields are very far from being exact sciences.)
I am not sure but I would not be surprised if the rise of "high functioning autist" or "Asperger" diagnosis might later turn out to be an artifact of the background of extremely extrovert (mostly American) society that simply cannot tolerate certain kinds of introverts.

E.g. Gould certainly was a neurotic in the vulgar sense of a strange and spleeny person (his early death was also probably related to decades of abuse of pills). But in the early 2000s an acquaintance of mine who was an avid Gould fan and probably had read most of what was available then, claimed that Gould had been asexual and it seemed to fit. Only it turned out that Gould had an affair with Susan Foss for many years and they were at times basically living together, apparently quite satisfactory and Gould also got along well with her children. So while he was probably O-C or whatever to some extent, in other ways he seems to have been far more "normal" (i.e. enjoying a romantic relationship and even some family life) than some of the "mythology" suggested.

Similarly, for Beethoven we know of many deep friendships and very probable love affairs. Sure, he could be very difficult and especially when he got deaf, somewhat of a recluse. But we know that he suffered from the social handicap of the deafness and despite the deafness had at times a considerable social life.
These facts simply do not fit at all with an extreme introvert loner image. (I don't say that this proves he did not suffer some mental disorders, but certainly not any associated with extreme introversion and voluntary isolation.)