Your preferred speed of Beethoven's symphonies?

[Que]

HAVE YOU GOT THE MENUHIN YET?!

The letters are a big as the mistake to get ANYTHING conducted by Menuhin.

Q

[12tone.]

The letters are a big as the mistake to get ANYTHING conducted by Menuhin.

Q

[Varg]

Furtwangler or Barenboim ( and Klemperer, when i feel like it) over Karajan, definately, and other under cocain type of conducting; it just lost all it's atmosphere if played too fast.

[Que]

Sorry.... But he was a fine violinist.

Q

[val]

Mark

Sounds like you're referring to a specific symphony, Val. Which one?

I was talking about the 9th.

Regarding the other symphonies I prefer a fast tempo, but with tension and dynamic. Walter, Karajan sometimes, Cluyens, Reiner, Toscanini, Erich Kleiber, Monteux are good examples. But not in the 9th.

[FideLeo]

Bernard Sherman quotes one period timing for the first movement (w/exposition repeat) of Brahms 1st
(premiere led by Otto Dessoff) at between 13'30 and 14'30.  According to Sherman, that is faster than
most modern recordings other than those by Weingartner and Norrington.  So, even at the height of
Romanticism in the 19th century, works by contemporary composers were played quite fast by today's
standards.  Another reason not to double-guess Beethoven's metronome marks?

[techniquest]

33 1/3

[Mark]

33 1/3

Inspired.

[jochanaan]

Bernard Sherman quotes one period timing for the first movement (w/exposition repeat) of Brahms 1st
(premiere led by Otto Dessoff) at between 13'30 and 14'30.  According to Sherman, that is faster than
most modern recordings other than those by Weingartner and Norrington.  So, even at the height of
Romanticism in the 19th century, works by contemporary composers were played quite fast by today's
standards.  Another reason not to double-guess Beethoven's metronome marks?

Most recordings made before about the 1960s are considerably faster than most modern ones.  I doubt that the Summer of Love had much to do with it ; what seems likely is that many noted conductors were getting older at that time and either simply lost momentum or deliberately broadened their tempos.  This seems true of Walter, Klemperer, Stokowski and Ormandy.  (But not, notably, for Reiner or Monteux, who kept their tempos lively till the very end of their lives.)  And for some reason Bernstein, Karajan and Solti also broadened their tempos at about the same time although extreme age was not a factor for them.

[FideLeo]

Most recordings made before about the 1960s are considerably faster than most modern ones.... although extreme age was not a factor for them.

Indeed age may not actually have that much to do with slowing down....conductors such as Reiner, Toscanini also belonged to those who didn't change much.  Ditto Erich Kleiber and Richard Strauss who gave us some rather fast Mozart recordings.  All in all, I tend to believe that tempi were probably far more diversifed since mid-20th century (which even created a cult for slow-mo maestri like Celibidache ) than they were ever before. 

[Harry Collier]

Oh dear... another false dilemma. The quality of a tempo depends on the execution. A fast pace can be as dull as a slow pace can be full of tension. It depends on the conception of the work and the performers' conception of the soundscape they wish to produce. As long as it is interpretively convincing, I'm fine with it.

Nail hit firmly on head. I'm with you. In general, I am biased towards quicker tempi. But then someone comes along and plays something very slowly -- Richter in the first movement of Schuberts' D 960 sonata, Lisa Batiashvili in the first movement of Beethoven's violin concerto, for example -- and I'm cheering them on. It's a question of the performer's vision, integrity and powers of concentration.

[FideLeo]

To these ears, Richter is still too slow in the first movement in D. 960.   So is Afanassiev in his recordings on ECM and Denon. 

[prémont]

The letters are a big as the mistake to get ANYTHING conducted by Menuhin.

Q

This is too generalized IMO. I admit, that his Beethoven symphony set is dull.  And his Bach recordings are generally not to my taste considering the style and the details, but still I am captured by the high spirit of his Bach - of which I own the greater part.

[Harry]

Well I heard this set of Menuhin too, and it is indeed rather dull, it almost put me to sleep, and it was roughly played, by a inefficient orchestra. Sound was not hot either.

[FideLeo]

This is too generalized IMO. I admit, that his Beethoven symphony set is dull.  And his Bach recordings are generally not to my taste considering the style and the details, but still I am captured by the high spirit of his Bach - of which I own the greater part.

I have heard good things said about M's Mozart and Schubert symphonies (ditto high spirits and low prices  )
also.  Not that I am curious about his interpretations that much to want to check it out myself, but I was not terribly
surprised to see our premont putting a few nice words in for him.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

To these ears, Richter is still too slow in the first movement in D. 960.     

Disagree...

[FideLeo]

Disagree...

TO THESE EARs...Richter is too slow in D960/i, since it is quite a stretch to interpret "molto moderato" as "wearily plodding" or even "glacial."

Anyways, a book on topic for those interested if it hasn't been mentioned already:



Robert Philip
Early Recordings and Musical Style: Changing Tastes in Instrumental Performance, 1900-1950
Cambridge University Press 2004

[Dancing Divertimentian]

TO THESE EARs...

...well, I disagree... 0:)

Richter is too slow in D960/i, since it is quite a stretch to interpret "molto moderato" as "wearily plodding" or even "glacial."

One may argue Richter's leisurely handling of "molto moderato" (the first movement) but there's no denying the bleak, gaping abyss he creates when the bottom drops out of that extremely elongated pause - prefaced of course by that menacing, bone-rattling trill. It's enervating enough a listener could be forgiven for putting the breaks on the music right then. Fortunately relief arrives when the succeeding note sounds and brings the listener back to earth...

[Larry Rinkel]

TO THESE EARs...Richter is too slow in D960/i, since it is quite a stretch to interpret "molto moderato" as "wearily plodding" or even "glacial."

Agreed, especially as an excessively slow tempo for the first movement creates insufficient contrast with the slow movement following.

[FideLeo]

...well, I disagree... 0:)

Sure YOU are free to disagree with MY observations. 

One may argue Richter's leisurely handling of "molto moderato" (the first movement) but there's no denying the bleak, gaping abyss he creates when the bottom drops out of that extremely elongated pause - prefaced of course by that menacing, bone-rattling trill. It's enervating enough a listener could be forgiven for putting the breaks on the music right then. Fortunately relief arrives when the succeeding note sounds and brings the listener back to earth...

I hear "a bleak, gaping abyss" (or for me, a caesura) in other interpretations as well (Andreas Staier's for example) which fortunately have chosen not to overlook the composer's instruction.   Frankly I think going from long to "heavenly length" in everything Schubertian is overrated, if not downright a cliche.