Great composers with mental disorders?

[Ken B]

Guys, none of you is trying to give offense. Don't fall into the habit of trying to take it.

[Monsieur Croche]

And given that upbringing, no wonder he behaved child-like later in life. More recently seen in Michael Jackson. Lost childhoods leave their marks, although childhood as we imagine it is a modern invention...

Exactly.  You don't get, have, and maintain a career like Mozart's unless you can function and work the system; a rampant case of blurting out socially inappropriate things, etc. would more than inhibit that, no matter how great you are.

As you've said, like many another child prodigy who begins an active career while everyone else is in middle school, high school, or university, many of those can only be diagnosed with the 'disorder' of being 'not fully adult,' i.e. childlike even in their full adult years.

[Monsieur Croche]

Guys, none of you is trying to give offense. Don't fall into the habit of trying to take it.

Nice, and thank you.

It seems there is some completely misinterpreted take going on here, i.e. a lot of people agree on 'pop' or 'vogue-ish' diagnoses (misdiagnoses wrongly analyzed / medicated) in the mental health profession, while I don't think anyone has denied that any of these named conditions are not wholly real for those who have them.  There is a huge difference there ;-)


Best regards.

[Cato]

Nice, and thank you.

It seems there is some completely misinterpreted take going on here...

From the earliest days of the Internet - beginning with 1990's chat rooms - I have been amazed by the ease with which so many people can so quickly misinterpret things, things which (to my understanding) could not possibly be misinterpreted, but a huge brouhaha could break out, and the "offended" party often refused to admit that s/he was in fact misinterpreting things.

I had this happen some years ago: I will not bother with the details, but the misinterpretation merited an e-mail full of insulted recriminations, as if the person were looking for an excuse to become angry and break off all contact.

[Keep Going]

It appears that Martinu may have had Asperger syndrome.

from Wiki:

Martinů was quiet, introverted and emotionally stolid when grouped with persons he did not know well. He answered questions slowly, even speaking in his native Czech. He might fail to reciprocate socially when people might compliment his music or do favors for him. A few people who met Martinů casually thought that he was aloof, unfriendly, or possibly stupid. But if they got a chance to know him better, he would usually open up and display none of these negative traits. Close friends found him to be a kind, gentle man who was self-effacing and unbiased. In 2009, F. James Rybka MD, who knew Martinu, collected stories of the composer's unusual personality that were based upon interviews of persons who knew him, as well as a study of many letters he had written to his family and friends. Evidence of his having an autistic spectrum disorder was compiled and evaluated, using the established criteria found in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disease (DSM-IV). This evidence was reviewed by a well-known autism neuroscientist, Dr. Sally Osonoff, who agreed that the composer had strong evidence of an autistic spectrum disorder, most likely Asperger syndrome. This was described in their publication.

In 2011 Rybka published Martinu's biography. This contains a discussion of such traits of Martinu as his failure of social reciprocity, lack of facial expressions and animation, phobias and extreme stage fright, inflexible adherence to a ritualized schedule, and zoning out into a suspended state when deeply engrossed composing while walking. This last trait proved to be a very dangerous one. At Tanglewood in 1946, it nearly killed Martinů when, one night, he walked off an unguarded second floor veranda in Great Barrington and suffered a concussion and fractured skull. The biography suggests both positive and negative ways that Asperger's worked in his life. It seems to have facilitated his great memory and ability to compose prolifically and skilfully. But it also left him unable to promote or showcase his music and caused him to be timid and misjudged.

[Monsieur Croche]

It appears that Martinu may have had Asperger syndrome.

from Wiki:

Martinů was quiet, introverted and emotionally stolid when grouped with persons he did not know well. /// He might fail to reciprocate socially when people might compliment his music or do favors for him. A few people who met Martinů casually thought that he was aloof, unfriendly, or possibly stupid. But if they got a chance to know him better, he would usually open up and display none of these negative traits.

This reads like nothing more than shyness, somewhat extreme while not as severe as some have it. "Shy" is now generally thought of as part of an individuals innate genetic makeup and general pathology, showing up routinely and at random in the gene pool, and is not something exclusive to only those with a more specific condition such as Asperger's.

zoning out into a suspended state when deeply engrossed composing while walking.

There are hundreds of documented instances of the more than bright to genius creative thinker being prone to becoming so preoccupied with thought and in those moments 'living completely in their head,' and losing touch with physical reality, most of them without any alleged 'conditions.'

In 2009, F. James Rybka MD, who knew Martinů, collected stories of the composer's unusual personality that were based upon interviews of persons who knew him, as well as a study of many letters he had written to his family and friends. Evidence of his having an autistic spectrum disorder was compiled and evaluated, using the established criteria found in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disease (DSM-IV). This evidence was reviewed by a well-known autism neuroscientist, Dr. Sally Osonoff, who agreed that the composer had strong evidence of an autistic spectrum disorder, most likely Asperger syndrome. This was described in their publication.

In 2011 Rybka published Martinů's biography. ... The biography suggests both positive and negative ways that Asperger's worked in his life. It seems to have facilitated his great memory and ability to compose prolifically and skilfully. But it also left him unable to promote or showcase his music and caused him to be timid and misjudged.[/i]

There are far too many documented 'geniuses' with eidetic memory (photographic memory, more accurately called 99% recall) who did not have any known 'conditions,' to have me for one moment believing that a capacious memory [musical or other] is a 'side benefit' as exclusive of or to Asperger's or any other condition.

Beethoven and Mozart (among other known feats) are known to have written out the entire recapitulation sections of their symphonies from memory, not referring to their earlier written expositions.  Bach, Telemann, Mozart, Schubert, Liszt, Saint-Saens, Darius Milhaud, Duke Ellington and Alan Hovhaness were all highly prolific... to name but a few.  Georg Solti had in memory about every classical and romantic era piano part (and probably the rest of score) of songs, instrumental sonatas, chamber works and piano concerti, which he could sit down and readily perform without preparation.  For most of his conducting career, Pierre Boulez conducted lengthy pieces and entire mixed programs without scores, completely from memory. Then there are as well the ever so many who have an eiditic memory who were / are not 'artists.'

Again, that Martinů had "great memory and ability to compose prolifically and skilfully." is not any kind of signpost of any other condition other than he had that cluster of abilities, as many others also have had.

Even if there is a higher percent of those who have Aspergers who also have a capacious memory, I am not at all convinced this is automatically inclusive along with the disorder.  The fact there are so many composers who have been prolific, and whose works display a great degree of skill in the craft also somewhat kaboshes the 'attribute = inclusive with the syndrome.'

The number of people with this sort of disorder who are not extraordinarily bright, or creative, who do not display an extraordinary talent for anything, far outnumber those few who also are also talented and successfully exercise that talent.

I may not dispute at all the general diagnosis made on Martinů, with its number of traits / points all in a row, while it almost seems to me there is near to a vogue for many people, mental health professionals and 'us lay folk,' to assign certain abilities as exclusive to a particular disorder where they clearly are not uniquely exclusive), and then somehow glamorize those aspects of an otherwise disabling disorder... quaintly calling them 'assets.'  People with those same assets and without disorders plainly have the advantage, and there are and have been plenty of them.


Best regards.

[amw]

It's also worth noting that many people who have Asperger syndrome do not believe it should be considered a 'disorder'.

[Monsieur Croche]

It's also worth noting that many people who have Asperger syndrome do not believe it should be considered a 'disorder'.

This makes perfect sense in that people with some problems or conditions can not recognize they have a problem or condition for the simple reason they live within the context of their problem or disorder; i.e. they are in their known 'normal.'


Best regards

[North Star]

And it should also be noted that Asperger is an outdated, and not useful diagnosis, as there isn't any systematic way to distinguish it from the rest of the autism spectrum disorders.

[Mirror Image]

There were/are probably a lot of composers with some kind of mental disorder, but this bears no significance when listening to their music as it's the music that speaks the loudest and clearest. I've been told I have a mental disorder or I should say disorders. Of course, this usually only happens when someone asks me what kind of music I enjoy listening to.

[kishnevi]

Hmmm...the Wikipedia article is so skeptical that it suggests eidetic memory does not really exist and is limited to  young chikdren who have not fully developed their language skills.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory
However, highly visual memory is commonly reported among autistic people.  My memory is not unusually large, but is almist totally visual in character:  I mentally see what my memory recalls. 

This makes perfect sense in that people with some problems or conditions can not recognize they have a problem or condition for the simple reason they live within the context of their problem or disorder; i.e. they are in their known 'normal.'


Best regards

It's more the idea that being different is not a disorder, in the same way that left handed people  are not suffering from a disorder because they don't favor the right arm in doing tasks. The problems come from difficulties dealing with the surrounding environment and other people: square peg round hole problem.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Didn't Gould threaten to sue a person who slapped him in the back? That certainly sounds... interesting.

[Monsieur Croche]

Didn't Gould threaten to sue a person who slapped him in the back? That certainly sounds... interesting.

To me, the best 'diagnosis' of Glenn Gould's more eccentric behavior is simply:
excessively neurotic / severe hypochondriac (while, doh, a highly talented one.)

[lisa needs braces]

Ludwig Van Beethoven. Mental condition: notorious asshole.

[Monsieur Croche]

Ludwig Van Beethoven. Mental condition: notorious asshole.

Or, one genius mustafino dude who simply did not know his place? Lol.

[Jo498]

I don't think any biography of Beethoven supports that he was a "notorious asshole". He was often irascible, stubborn and difficult and some things became worse as his deafness and general health developed for the worse in the last 10-12 years of his life (when after all, he was only in his late 40s and early 50s, regardless of the nonsense one often reads about earlier centuries, not an "old man" for ca. 1820).
And he was mean to his sister-in-law and mismanaged that whole affair with his nephew. But he was also a loyal friend to many and the nephew affair seems over all more tragic because the childless Beethoven doted on the nephew but was simply incapable as a guardian for the youngster.