Bruckner's Abbey

[PerfectWagnerite]

I apologize if already mentioned but I am bowed over by this video of Bruckner's 5th:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwj_57e8T2s

What can you say about Asahina? This is Bruckner conducting at its epitomy: serious, ascetic, uncompromising, steely in execution, not unlike another great Bruckner conductor Gunter Wand.

[André]

It is glorious indeed. And the comparison with Wand is not farfetched. Both conductors achieve a sense of mystical ceremony combined with a juggernaut orchestral display.

[Cato]

I apologize if already mentioned but I am bowed over by this video of Bruckner's 5th:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwj_57e8T2s

What can you say about Asahina? This is Bruckner conducting at its epitomy: serious, ascetic, uncompromising, steely in execution, not unlike another great Bruckner conductor Gunter Wand.

It is glorious indeed. And the comparison with Wand is not farfetched. Both conductors achieve a sense of mystical ceremony combined with a juggernaut orchestral display.

Many thanks for the link!  I will need to listen to it tomorrow: are Asahina and Bruckner parallel with Watanabe and Sibelius?

[André]

Ooof ! You got me there... I've only heard of Watanabe'  Sibelius, but never actually expereienced it.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Many thanks for the link!  I will need to listen to it tomorrow: are Asahina and Bruckner parallel with Watanabe and Sibelius?

Did you guys know that Asahina's father was Watanabe? Not Akeo the conductor but Kaichi the engineer !

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Ooof ! You got me there... I've only heard of Watanabe'  Sibelius, but never actually expereienced it.

I've tried to look for either of these guys' Sibelius or Bruckner and found no sets at the Shibuya Tower Records and only single discs of Asahina Sibelius. (No Watanabe Sibelius at all.) Rather disappointing, actually, and certainly surprising. Esp. since it's not like the store hasn't the most splendid selection in every other way.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I've tried to look for either of these guys' Sibelius or Bruckner and found no sets at the Shibuya Tower Records and only single discs of Asahina Sibelius. (No Watanabe Sibelius at all.) Rather disappointing, actually, and certainly surprising. Esp. since it's not like the store hasn't the most splendid selection in every other way.

I saw this on Amazon, price is a bit high but not outrageous:

[asin]B00000I75L[/asin]

Anyway watching the Asahina Bruckner 5th it is more astonishing for a man that was 88 yrs old conducting a work that is 80 minutes long. Goes right up there with Bernard Haitink conducting a Mahler 3rd or Mahler 7th nowadays.

[Parsifal]

After spending a little time with this cycle

[asin]B00076YOQ8[/asin]

I find myself generally put off, seems rushed, crescendos don't unfold organically, lacking in a gentle grandeur I want to hear in the music.

Anyway, I'm wondering if there is a Bruckner cycle in which the brass generally has a more dolce touch that is normally the case. The orchestration of this music is so brass heavy, maybe the laying into it with utmost power is over the top. I'm thinking maybe something along the lines of the Bohm recordings with the VPO on Decca. Or maybe something like Haitink's original RCO cycle in more modern sound. How would Barbirolli perform it?

Any comments on the Masur cycle, the Venzago cycle, van Zweden, Maazel?

[Jo498]

you probably know these already and "dolce" is not quite the proper word but they are not "hard" and "harsh" and very worthwhile: Giulini/VPO in 7-9.
And the ones I know of Celi/Munich (4,6,8 -he did 3-9) are not only slow but also generally tending lyrical and balanced without anything "blaring out"
While far from this kind of "luxurious" warm sound, I seem to recall that the Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken recordings are also not as "brassy" as some others. But I have not heard any of the ones you mention in the last line.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

After spending a little time with BB's 2nd cycle.

I find myself generally put off, seems rushed, crescendos don't unfold organically, lacking in a gentle grandeur I want to hear in the music.

Anyway, I'm wondering if there is a Bruckner cycle in which the brass generally has a more dolce touch that is normally the case. The orchestration of this music is so brass heavy, maybe the laying into it with utmost power is over the top. I'm thinking maybe something along the lines of the Bohm recordings with the VPO on Decca. Or maybe something like Haitink's original RCO cycle in more modern sound. How would Barbirolli perform it?

Any comments on the Masur cycle, the Venzago cycle, van Zweden, Maazel?

Sarge, who also likes Bb's Berlin Cycle better than I do (I think the 9th and the 1st are fabulous, but the rest not so much), is also GMG's in-house apologist for Maazel's BRSO cycle. 
It is best to hear what's good about that cycle from him. Certainly Maazel does make his personal choices and doesn't follow the crowd.

The Masur-cycle is one cycle I've always stayed far away from and never even had the tiniest urge to attain. That's obviously not saying anything about the cycle and only about my biases...
Venzago Cycle I'm still trying to acquire the whole thing but whatever I've heard so far was at the very least fascinating. I don't mind Bruckner being done differently to my expectations as long as it's done with convictions... and this is certainly the case w/Venzago. Same reason I can love Norrington and Celi and Haitink in the Sixth the best. Van Zweden is a marvelous cycle, I think... but, it might be said, also middle-of-the-road. Sheer quality, though, and a fine orchestral sound. But I haven't gotten to know it well enough to say as much about it as I might be about time-honored favorites (Skrowa, Wand, Celi) of mine, of course.
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html

[Parsifal]

Thanks to both of you for comments. I generally like Maazel, and when I read amateur reviewers on Amazon talk about how Bruckner is rolling in his grave, I think I have to hear this thing.

I also should find that Guilini. I'm sure I had the 8th when it first came out but probably foolishly culled it at some point.

Maybe I should just be satisfied with my existing favorites, Karajan, the cycle plus EMI and WPO one-offs, Haitink's old cycle, Chailly, and listen to those old Schuricht recordings I have never gotten around to.

[Brian]

Another brass-lighter, wind-heavier set I've heard lately was Hun-Joung Lim's cycle with the Korean Symphony. I'd urge you to find a way to sample before buying it, but it's an option. (EDIT: Todd is reviewing it symphony by symphony; check his post history.)

Venzago is a loon. It's not that he de-emphasizes brass but that he uses chamber orchestras. But I would describe his interpretive style as sort of like Airplane!: let's try 100 crazy ideas and see if any of them work. For me, it's more of the blind squirrel finding a nut rule than genuine insight, which is a damn shame since Bruckner is in need of a serious, grownup re-interpretation.

EDIT: ClassicsToday was good enough to attach some Venzago sound samples to its scathing reviews. example (7 - Victor Carr), example (5 - Hurwitz)

[Jo498]

If you generally like Giulini there is a "Giulini in Vienna" box that contains Bruckner's 7-9 (+ Beethoven concerti with ABM, Brahms symphonies, Rigoletto etc.). Otherwise the 8th is probably easiest to find because this one (and the 7th, too) appeared also in the gold colored "Masters" series.
As most late Giulini they are all slow (if not quite Celi-slow) but for Bruckner this approach works better than for Brahms, IMO.

Admittedly, I am somewhat biased because this 7th and 8th were my first recordings of these pieces (and probably among my first 30 CDs or so). The brass is not damped down but it sounds warm and full and does not stick out glaringly.

[Sergeant Rock]

Any comments on the Masur cycle, the Venzago cycle, van Zweden, Maazel?

Sarge[...]is also GMG's in-house apologist for Maazel's BRSO cycle. 

I do like Maazel's cycle. It would probably be my desert island choice. He is, in general, slower than average in the first and last movements, faster than average in the slow movements, with unremarkable (tempo-wise) Scherzos. Hard to generalize about the brass sound but I think it rather mellow, at least the trumpets and trombones aren't overbearing in the, for example, coda of the 8th. You can clearly hear the horns (which disappear in too many recordings). Is this a recommendation? No. I never assume anyone will agree with me 

Sarge

[Parsifal]

Again, thanks for all of the comments. Sounds like I need Maazel and Venzago.  A blind squirrel may be just what is needed!

[TheGSMoeller]

I've always enjoyed going back and revisiting Venzago's discs, even if for just pure amusement. I'm still amazed at the 5th's timings, look at his take on the Adagio compared to the third movement...

II - 12:13
III - 13:11

And Celibdaches Adagio is close to 24 minutes if I remember correctly. 

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I've always enjoyed going back and revisiting Venzago's discs, even if for just pure amusement. I'm still amazed at the 5th's timings, look at his take on the Adagio compared to the third movement...

II - 12:13
III - 13:11

And Celibdaches Adagio is close to 24 minutes if I remember correctly. 

Something tells me that Celi isn't the standard, either. Though in Bruckner, subjective and objective time can be particularly far apart, I find. Hearing Bruckner in St. Florian (where the symphonies don't really belong, but that's a different matter), I might find a 20-minute Adagio sounding swift and 12 minutes an utter, incomprehensible mess. In a dryish modern concert hall, however, the very same former performance would probably sound like old chewing gum and the latter might work.

[Jo498]

16-18 min is probably the "normal" tempo for the adagio of the 5th (my fastest is Harnoncourt with a few seconds under 15). So unsurprisingly 12 min is very fast but 24 is very slow

[SurprisedByBeauty]

apropos:


Classical CD Of The Week: Bruckner from Deutsche Grammophon



Exploring, discovering and rediscovering great music in new recordings and old music in great recordings.
Bruckner from Barenboim and Abbado.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/06/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-bruckner-from-deutsche-grammophon/

[Cato]

Venzago is a loon. It's not that he de-emphasizes brass but that he uses chamber orchestras. But I would describe his interpretive style as sort of like Airplane!: let's try 100 crazy ideas and see if any of them work. For me, it's more of the blind squirrel finding a nut rule than genuine insight, which is a damn shame since Bruckner is in need of a serious, grownup re-interpretation.

EDIT: ClassicsToday was good enough to attach some Venzago sound samples to its scathing reviews. example (7 - Victor Carr), example (5 - Hurwitz)

Absolutely bizarre!  The strings are nearly non-existent in the Seventh Symphony excerpt: one can easily assume that Bruckner intended them to be heard, even when the brass played forte! And in the excerpt from the Fifth Symphony, the brass are not accenting the notes correctly!  One must assume that is a command from the conductor to ignore the score!

Why would a recording company invest in such performances?  A few years ago, the Toledo Symphony played (a nearly complete) Bruckner cycle in a cathedral, a cycle which should have been recorded because it was very well played and because of the acoustics in the cathedral.