Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)

[71 dB]

No, your prior statement, and this follow-up, display a profound lack of understanding and factual knowledge of American politics.  This is quite typical for non-Americans everywhere, including this forum.

Let me ask you this question: when is the last time you spoke with an elected American official?  (I did just yesterday, for reference.)  I want to get a sense for what type of understanding you have of concrete American political activity, for party operations, for outreach campaigns, for direct voter communication, and so forth.  Since you mentioned gerrymandering, it would also be quite interesting if you could explain the impact of the practice on voting patterns in cities, and explain why the highest ever percentage victories in the US House have gone to Dems, with percentages in the 90%+ range, something even some dictators try to avoid.  At best, you display an op-ed informed knowledge of US politics.

Really fair to ask me that. I live in Finland meaning I don't meet elected American official that often. 90 % wins (51 % is all you need, so you waste the rest support) is not a sign of foul play. Gerrymandering is.

Reps are NOT fiscally conservative. Trumps tax cuts increased deficit almost 2 trillion. Reps are NOT for protection for pre-existing conditions. Trump is working to get rid of protection for pre-existing conditions. Half of americans believe these lies and vote against their own interests. Corporate Dems are only marginally better (on social issues), but better nevertheless.

[Todd]

Huh? That is the hallmark of gerrymandering.

No shit.  One of 71 dB's prior posts went on about all manner of evil right wing shenanigans but decidedly left out the fact that gerrymandering is a practice beloved by and most enthusiastically engaged in by both major parties.  I happen to live in a state where Dems have gerrymandered the state, for both state and national offices, most effectively.  The point is to demonstrate his ignorance of American politics.  This was also highlighted when he complained of big money donations and lamented about why people wonder why Dems barely won back the House.  One must surmise that he doesn't know about Democrat fundraising during the cycle, even though it has been well publicized.

Really fair to ask me that. I live in Finland meaning I don't meet elected American official that often. 90 % wins is not a sign of foul play. Gerrymandering is.

It wasn't meant to be fair at all, but rather to highlight your lack of knowledge about and understanding of and exposure to American politics on the ground.  Every day I see and hear about the difference between press coverage and practical reality.

[71 dB]

No shit.  One of 71 dB's prior posts went on about all manner of evil right wing shenanigans but decidedly left out the fact that gerrymandering is a practice beloved by and most enthusiastically engaged in by both major parties.  I happen to live in a state where Dems have gerrymandered the state, for both state and national offices, most effectively.  The point is to demonstrate his ignorance of American politics.  This was also highlighted when he complained of big money donations and lamented about why people wonder why Dems barely won back the House.  One must surmise that he doesn't know about Democrat fundraising during the cycle, even though it has been well publicized.

You don't understand. I'm agaisnt gerrymandering even when it benefits Dems. I'm for honest elections. You ger X % of votes means you get X % of seats. I believe Dems got MUCH more votes than Rebs, but didn't get majority of senate. I saw 36 million votes agaisnt 29 million votes (correct?)

It wasn't meant to be fair at all, but rather to highlight your lack of knowledge about and understanding of and exposure to American politics on the ground.  Every day I see and hear about the difference between press coverage and practical reality.

Sure I don't know it all, but I have been following US politics a lot the past 2 years. In fact I should be using my time more productively, but I became a politics junky...

[Todd]

I believe Dems got MUCH more votes than Rebs, but didn't get majority of senate.

That's not how the Senate works - by design.  This is another example of the ignorance I am referring to.

[71 dB]

That's not how the Senate works - by design.  This is another example of the ignorance I am referring to.

So the Senate is undemocratic by design? How are we supposed to believe the US protects democracy over the World? Well, you have to an idiot to believe that. In fact you enforced my point: No big blue wave because the process is undemocratic.

[Todd]

So the Senate is undemocratic by design?

Good lord.  I suggest you, and all other non-Americans, and probably a big slug of Americans, on this forum go read about the Connecticut Compromise, and then the battles for the 17th Amendment.  Information is freely and widely available.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

No shit.  One of 71 dB's prior posts went on about all manner of evil right wing shenanigans but decidedly left out the fact that gerrymandering is a practice beloved by and most enthusiastically engaged in by both major parties.  I happen to live in a state where Dems have gerrymandered the state, for both state and national offices, most effectively.  The point is to demonstrate his ignorance of American politics.  This was also highlighted when he complained of big money donations and lamented about why people wonder why Dems barely won back the House.  One must surmise that he doesn't know about Democrat fundraising during the cycle, even though it has been well publicized.

The Washington post had a very informative article about Gerrymandering. Gerrymandering can be quantified by a statistical measure called vote efficiency. Of the 50 states there are a few that are significantly tilted towards Democrats. There are a much larger number that are tilted towards Republicans. You live in Oregon? Oregon has a very slight tilt towards Democrats, almost neutral.

The strongest pro-Republican gerrymandering is in Florida.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/politics/courts-law/gerrymander/?utm_term=.89aa73ee048f

See the graphic towards the end of the article.

[Todd]

There are a much larger number that are tilted towards Republicans.

Republicans are better at it, yes.

You live in Oregon? Oregon has a very slight tilt towards Democrats, almost neutral.

This is refuted by the vote tallies for Congress from Tuesday.  And then there is the carving up of state districts, which is worse.

[amw]

Huh? That is the hallmark of gerrymandering. You pack your opponents into a small number of districts with an overwhelming majority and that allows you to make a larger number of districts in which your allies have a smaller but reliable majority. The strategy is to make your opponent waste more votes, either by having an unnecessarily large majority in districts, or by loosing districts by a narrow margin.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/9/16432358/gerrymandering-supreme-court-diagram

The issue of vote share in cities is a more complex issue, which boils down to a) America having always been a racist, white supremacist country in which black & minority people are geographically segregated from white people in particular neighbourhoods of cities and forced out of suburban and exurban areas by a history of legal discrimination and subsequent redlining practices; b) one of the two parties being much more openly white supremacist than the other and therefore getting a very small percentage of the vote from minority groups.

[Todd]

The issue of vote share in cities is a more complex issue, which boils down to a) America having always been a racist, white supremacist country in which black & minority people are geographically segregated from white people in particular neighbourhoods of cities and forced out of suburban and exurban areas by a history of legal discrimination and subsequent redlining practices; b) one of the two parties being much more openly white supremacist than the other and therefore getting a very small percentage of the vote from minority groups.

There is, of course, some truth to this in a fair number of places, though in the case of Oregon - not Vermont white, but still very white overall - the effect of race on electoral outcomes is not significant.  The 3rd District is about 80% white, and Blumenauer got 72% of the vote.  There's much more of an ideological and partisan component to the voting in the district.  Republicans field only tomato cans (if anyone) in the district, and funnel money elsewhere.

There's a reasonable chance that Oregon picks up a Congressional seat after 2020, but with the current (Republican) Secretary of State stricken with cancer, the probability is that Dems will take that position in 2020, and the freshly reelected Democrat governor will probably just rubber stamp whatever the Democrat Secretary and Democrat legislature scribble on paper.  Then it's off to court.

[71 dB]

Good lord.  I suggest you, and all other non-Americans, and probably a big slug of Americans, on this forum go read about the Connecticut Compromise, and then the battles for the 17th Amendment.  Information is freely and widely available.

Ok, I'll check these up. I'm sure most americans don't know this stuff.

[Zeus]

Don't know and don't need to know.  Todd's just being a bully. 

It's perfectly understandable if the most recent election has put him in a bad mood.   

[71 dB]

Connecticut Compromise 1787:
Proportional representation of the states in the lower house, but required the upper house to be weighted equally among the states. Each state would have two representatives in the upper house.

So, how can there be a huge blue wave if Connecticut Compromise favors red states?

Seventeenth Amendment 1913
The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.

When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.

This amendment shall not be so construed as to affect the election or term of any Senator chosen before it becomes valid as part of the Constitution.

[71 dB]

Don't know and don't need to know.  Todd's just being a bully. 

It's perfectly understandable if the most recent election has put him in a bad mood.   

It's his on fault to not be a lefty progressive... ...I'm not responsible for his bad mood.

[Todd]

Todd's just being a bully.

First troll, now bully.  The GMG Big Brain Brigade is rolling out the rhetorical howitzers today, that's for sure.

So, how can there be a huge blue wave if Connecticut Compromise favors red states?

Read about the New Deal.

[71 dB]

Massive blue wave happens when red states turn blue. That requires "MAGA-people" to come to their senses which requires skilled non-corporate media that gives the left the credit it deserves and doesn't lie and smear. Money out of politics, facts over feelings, etc. If that happens, connecticut compromize isn't an issue.

[Karl Henning]

It's his on fault to not be a lefty progressive... ...I'm not responsible for his bad mood.

We see you are determined to afford him his entertainment, though.

[71 dB]

Read about the New Deal.

Make me read a bit more and I get a PhD in American political history 

Conservatives are known to support state legislation whenever it serves right-wing agenda (e.g. abortion), but in blue states not so much...   

[Todd]

Massive blue wave happens when red states turn blue. That requires "MAGA-people" to come to their senses which requires skilled non-corporate media that gives the left the credit it deserves and doesn't lie and smear. Money out of politics, facts over feelings, etc. If that happens, connecticut compromize isn't an issue.

This is a rehashing of your prior ignorant post.

[71 dB]

We see you are determined to afford him his entertainment, though.

Yeah, but I'm done now. So fed up of everything. Bye.

What do you want from me Karl? Admire RVW's symphonies? Vandermolen seems the only friendly person here.