What are you listening to now?

[San Antone]

He treats the mass like a Machaut motet. This is what he says


What do you know about practice in C 14 France which makes you so certain that they didn't sing the motet in this motet style? I'm just a bit sceptical of your assurance here. What I'm saying is, I'd be very willing to believe that what they do is 180 degree the opposite of informed practice if I could see why you say it. I have no idea about what we know about whether it's more informed to leave out syllables of the mass text to get them under the notes, or whether it's more informed to use the song.


The relevant parts of the mass, he said, are folio 35v and following of  the  Chigi Codex. As in many sources, the superius is texted completely, the altus and bassus partially, and the tenor only with incipits.

https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Chig.C.VIII.234

(Leaving out syllables of the mass text sounds a bit like saying the Lords Prayer backwards to invoke the devil! When I was at school I had a friend who could do it!)

My understanding of the poly-textual motets is that the additional texts in the vernacular were not secular but religious in nature, embellishing and adding commentary on, the Latin verse(s).  The idea of including a secular text, and not just any secular text but one celebrating a armed soldier, into the mass setting is impossible to believe during Ockeghem's time.  The exclusion of anything secular from a church service held for more than a century after Ockeghem's time.  If merely using instruments was prohibited how can you credibly suggest the text of a drinking song would be allowed?

Fitting the words of the prayers was established by tradition - if syllables were left out in the cantus firmus it would not be unheard of, since the complete text is sung in the other voices.  But I am willing to bet there is a way to sing it with the complete text.

[Mandryka]

My understanding of the poly-textual motets is that the additional texts in the vernacular were not secular but religious in nature, embellishing and adding commentary on, the Latin verse(s).  The idea of including a secular text, and not just any secular text but one celebrating a armed soldier, into the mass setting is impossible to believe during Ockeghem's time.  The exclusion of anything secular from a church service held for more than a century after Ockeghem's time.  If merely using instruments was prohibited how can you credibly suggest the text of a drinking song would be allowed?

Fitting the words of the prayers was established by tradition - if syllables were left out in the cantus firmus it would not be unheard of, since the complete text is sung in the other voices.  But I am willing to bet there is a way to sing it with the complete text.

I see what you're saying, but it now begs the question, how secular is the L'homme arme song? So for example there's this idea from the booklet of Nusmido's recording

At first glance,
it would seem odd to base a mass on such a belligerent song.
However, if one thinks of the 'armed man' as Christ, as the
Saviour, armed with the word of God and with Love, and
as the bringer of Christian faith, it takes on another meaning. The song serves as a symbol of strength and fortitude,
which non-Christians ought to fear and which ought to give
Christians courage and confidence

[vandermolen]

Atterberg - Piano Concerto:

[asin]B00005QHS1[/asin]

A hyper-romantic concerto which rather resembles a harmonically spiced-up version of the Grieg concerto (the opening is certainly inspired by that of the earlier concerto). The first movement is relentlessly passionate - almost a bit too much - but is thrilling in its effect. Repose comes in the gorgeous slow movement, which starts off simply and sparingly but works its way to a stirringly ecstatic climax. The finale is jaunty and folk-like with a magical second theme first presented by the unique combination of solo cello, bassoon, and piano. Superb performance from all concerned!


Sainsbury - Cello Concerto:

[asin]B007KGGLKU[/asin]

This steadfastly tonal and generously melodic concerto from 1999 is a real discovery. The outer movements remind me in places of the Barber cello concerto in their rhythmic lilt and bracing "outdoorsy" feel, yet tempered by a distinctly English melancholy a la Finzi which comes to the fore in the second movement. The third movement even contains some delightful "pop music" influences in its syncopated rhythms. Wallfisch and the RSNO under Yates play with their usual passionate advocacy. The accompanying Foulds concerto is also superb - so this is an all-around enthusiastically recommended album. I see Sainsbury has also written a VC and some solo piano works which have been recorded, but there's not much else in his catalogue - I'd certainly love to hear a symphony or two and some chamber works from his pen!


Barber - Symphony no. 1:

[asin]B06ZZ269R9[/asin]

I cannot but echo Jeffrey's (vandermolen's) strong praise for this recording of this masterwork. The orchestra featured here is comprised of all college-aged students, but you'd never guess - their ensemble is super-tight and they play with unflagging musical maturity beyond their years. Under James Ross (who I've never heard of before), they really capture the essence of this work, from the rhythmic activity of the scherzo section through the passionate lyricism of the slow section to the shatteringly defiant ending. The accompanying Thompson symphony is also superb. Great stuff!


Kokkonen - Requiem:

[asin]B0000264KZ[/asin]

My first encounter with Kokkonen's music, and a very positive one it was! This relatively compact Requiem is alternatively lyrical and darkly atmospheric - menacing and dissonant in places but never forbidding. The scoring is consistently imaginative and varied. A very fine work.


Arnold - Suite from "Homage to the Queen":

[asin]B002NLRD4A[/asin]

Recently, I've been discovering some real gems hidden in Sir Malcolm's extensive output, and this is one of them. The outer movements are thrillingly celebratory in tone, and enclose several characterful dance movements.

What a fabulous selection Kyle!

[San Antone]

I see what you're saying, but it now begs the question, how secular is the L'homme arme song? So for example there's this idea from the booklet of Nusmido's recording

Erhardt is going to some length to defend his decision with this speculation, unconvincingly, imo.  Over 40 masses used the song as a basis - it was a very popular tune that was familiar to the congregations of the time.  For the generally illiterate populace, using this song would render the polyphony easier to absorb.

[aligreto]

Berwald: Symphony No. 3 "Singuliere [Bjorlin]

[Mandryka]

For the generally illiterate populace, using this song would render the polyphony easier to absorb.

Well, did anyone ever say "Hey,  I could really follow that polyphony because of that tune (which by the way, was subject to all sorts of transformation as it was passed around)? " Did anyone write "to write a successful mass use a popular tune? " How much opportunity did the illiterate masses have to hear an Ockeghem mass?

[aligreto]

Wesley: Sacred Music





The Church's One Foundation: Aurelia [Choir & Organ]
Blessed Be The God and Father [Choir & Organ]
For This Mortal must put on Immortality [Choir & Organ]
O Help Us Lord: Bedford with Organ interludes
Choral Song and Fugue for Organ [Organ]

[vandermolen]

Berwald: Symphony No. 3 "Singuliere [Bjorlin]

An incredibly 'ahead of its time' work. I know that is a bit of a meaningless concept but the excellent 'Singuliere' sounds like a much later work.

[Malx]

On this CD, early music ensemble Doulce Mémoire, sing and play music of the Christian and Muslim worlds around the time of the Renaissance. The CD consists of pieces that would have been sung in less formalised situations than churches and mosques but still adequately expressing the musicians/singers faith.

[vandermolen]

I've been tempted by this recording.

[kyjo]

An incredibly 'ahead of its time' work. I know that is a bit of a meaningless concept but the excellent 'Singuliere' sounds like a much later work.

+1

[listener]

GRETRY: Zémire et Azor

Mady Mesplé, Roland Bufkins, Jean van Gorp
R.T.B. Chamber Orch. & Chorus    Edgard Doneux cond.
recorded 1974 in the Église Saint-Joseph, Brussels which may account for it sounding like a mono recording enhanced for stereo

Dances Villageois, Ballet Suite from Céphale et Procris
Orchestre de Liège    Paul Strauss, cond.

[Todd]

I've been tempted by this recording.

Give in to temptation.  You will be glad you did.

TD:




An encores disc. 

[Todd]

5.

[SymphonicAddict]

Now I recall why the Nonet is one of my favorites. The exquisite dialogue between the 5 winds and the 4 strings amazes me, and it even imitates Renaissance music (hear the end of the 3rd movement). That 2nd movement with its some ghostly passages is a real stunner.

[André]

The incidental music Sibelius wrote is often chockful of great ideas that *just* get enough development from the composer to leave me wishing he had recycled some in the form of a couple more symphonies. As it stands, the 14 numbers from The Tempest, lasting some 30 minutes is a superb example of the composer at his best. These 1952-56 Beecham performances must have been among the very first of that portion of the Sibelius canon to appear on disc.

[André]

From Youtube, a 1946 performance of Chopin's e minor concerto with Rubinstein and the NYPO under Bruno Walter. In concert and in his younger years Rubinstein could be quite the firebrand, to the point of sometimes messing up the musical line. Here in his middle period, he finds a miraculous balance between impetuosity and poetry. Walter's accompaniment is at one with the soloist, a real partnership that achieves spontaneous combustion in places. The old mono sound (Carnegie Hall ?) reproduces the pianist's tone reasonably faithfully.

[Mandryka]

Christmas music from Cappella Pratensis. There's a pulsation about the way they express the music, it ebbs and flows, expands and contracts, it gathers to a greatness like the ooze from oil crushed. They describe this as "modal singing" and they see it as a new wave in early music performance, as radically unorthodox as Rübsam and Hill's horizontal keyboard playing is in baroque music. Like Rübsam she's scathing about the orthodox approach

In [modal singing]  closely related intervals and rhythms form and transform themselves into kaleidoscopic and interlocking nuclei. Their function is to expand away from and to contract toward one omnipresent and fundamental generating principle: that frequency (tone) from which they were created. . . [By contrast] In tonality the chain of hierarchical interrelationship which governs all of creation has almost ceased to exist. God is no longer dancing the creation but mankind arresting it.

It's interesting how closely Rebecca Stewart relates her singing practice to her spiritual practice. Maybe I shouldn't be too surprised really, but sometimes I see early music groups as just a bunch of professional performers, entertainers.  Rebecca Stewart definitely does not see what she does in those terms!

I think I hear this approach in Graindelavoix's Dufay and Gombert on YouTube; I'm sure I hear it in Ensemble Nusmido's Ockeghem; I wonder whether Hilliard sing Machaut motets modally.  I don't think Diabolus in Musica sing Ockeghem modally.

I like modal singing.

[Florestan]

[Mandryka]

Thought you might appreciate this HIP recording of op 111 which I've just discovered