What are you listening to now?

[Mandryka]

I can't hear the words clearly enough, and don't know the text of the song well enough to find where Nusmido quote the original song in a movement of the mass.  It is quite common for an ensemble to include this song as a separate track on a recording of one of the masses using it as the underlying cantus firmus  - but it would never have been quoted during a performance of the mass, only the mass text would have been sung.  Whether or not this decision by Nusmido warrants the kind of negative review by Gio on Amazon is questionable.  This recording is not intended to be used liturgically; and I consider it a case of no harm no foul.  (The choice of naming themselves "Dominus" with the syllables backwards may indicate a certain lighthearted manner with which they approach the music.)

Since over 500 years separates us from the time of the creation of Ockeghem's mass and we no longer know the song with the same kind of familiarity as would have been true during his time, maybe they thought it would be an interesting way to highlight the manner in which Ockeghem incorporated the song into the texture of the polyphony.

I am more bothered by the recorder tracks which seem to be such a drastic change from the sound of the voices they are jarring to my ears.

I have now an answer from Martin Erhardt. Briefly I was wrong to think that the manuscripts are fully texted, in Chigi it isn't. He writes that the mass's words wouldn't fit without a lot of forcing, but the song's words fit easily. He also makes some comments about the secular and spiritual existing together, which as you know is the sort of thing I like,  and he adds "To sing the l'homme armé text together with Kyrie etc. was actually not a decision made for the sake of any effect, individuality or whatsoever, but came naturally"

I was right to think that Rebecca Stewart was an important influence. Actually it's totally obvious!

[Todd]

[cilgwyn]

Playing now! I finally managed to get this  2cd set at a reasonable price! The eight String quartets of Daniel Jones. These are good as some admirers say they are. Actually,mine is in a slimline jewel case and appears to be in very good condition. I'm hoping there will be no problems with the cd's. This is fantastic music. I can understand why someone reckoned that his best music was in these quartets,not the symphonies (much as I love,them!). These are very absorbing. They should be better known. Nice booklet notes by someone who knew him  (Giles Easterbrook) & made a performing edition (with Malcolm Binney) of the eighth;which Jones was working on,the morning he died.

[Irons]

If you enjoy this piano cycle and also Janacek's string quartets can a strongly recommend this version of Book I of "On an Overgrown path" transcribed and played quite brilliantly.  Its like discovering a new major work by him.  The playing is sensational the recording a tad harsh.

[asin]B01H66ZIUW[/asin]

Thanks! I will investigate.

[Traverso]

 Les Très Riches Heures du Moyen Age

[Irons]

NP:

[asin]B000FTWAB8[/asin]

Walton: String Quartet in A Minor

Coull Quartet

An excellent programme of works.

[aligreto]

Mozart: Requiem [Solti]





This is a live performance which was part of a Mass to commemorate the 200th anniversary of Mozart's death.  Given the orchestra it goes without saying that they play wonderfully well and are thoroughly committed to being the driving force behind the performance and Solti certainly drives things along. The choir are also in great voice giving it their all. The soloists are also excellent. In terms of tone the performance leans very much towards the dramatic; it is almost operatic in scale. It really is a big, powerful performance; thunderous in places! For me it is almost too powerful, lacking somewhat in subtlety but I know that others will absolutely love it. I do enjoy it as a complete contrast to my preferred versions. The performance version is an edition by the famous scholar H.C. Robbins Landon based on Sussmayr, Eybler and Freystadtler.
It should be pointed out that being recorded from a Mass there are over 9 minutes of prayers included between the Hostias and the Agnus Dei. The performance ends with a lovely tolling of a big bell from the cathedral.

[Irons]

Holst: The Planets [Boult]





A good one.

The best?

[aligreto]

The best?

Christmas is a time of Peace and Good Will so we do not want to unleash mayhem by answering that one 

[Irons]

Christmas is a time of Peace and Good Will so we do not want to unleash mayhem by answering that one 

[San Antone]

I have now an answer from Martin Erhardt. Briefly I was wrong to think that the manuscripts are fully texted, in Chigi it isn't. He writes that the mass's words wouldn't fit without a lot of forcing, but the song's words fit easily. He also makes some comments about the secular and spiritual existing together, which as you know is the sort of thing I like,  and he adds "To sing the l'homme armé text together with Kyrie etc. was actually not a decision made for the sake of any effect, individuality or whatsoever, but came naturally"

I was right to think that Rebecca Stewart was an important influence. Actually it's totally obvious!

I doubt Rebecca Stewart would have sung the words to the song during a performance of the mass movements.  However, Mr. Erhardt is absolutely free to do what he wants with the music and for any reason.  Since the lyrics are not intelligible to me it is irrelevant what he has his singers doing.  There are other reasons why I would not use his recording as my go-to version.

But it is interesting and only proves that an early music director can at the same time make some performance decisions in a HIP manner and others purely because he thinks make more sense even if they are 180 degrees opposite.

[kyjo]

Atterberg - Piano Concerto:

[asin]B00005QHS1[/asin]

A hyper-romantic concerto which rather resembles a harmonically spiced-up version of the Grieg concerto (the opening is certainly inspired by that of the earlier concerto). The first movement is relentlessly passionate - almost a bit too much - but is thrilling in its effect. Repose comes in the gorgeous slow movement, which starts off simply and sparingly but works its way to a stirringly ecstatic climax. The finale is jaunty and folk-like with a magical second theme first presented by the unique combination of solo cello, bassoon, and piano. Superb performance from all concerned!


Sainsbury - Cello Concerto:

[asin]B007KGGLKU[/asin]

This steadfastly tonal and generously melodic concerto from 1999 is a real discovery. The outer movements remind me in places of the Barber cello concerto in their rhythmic lilt and bracing "outdoorsy" feel, yet tempered by a distinctly English melancholy a la Finzi which comes to the fore in the second movement. The third movement even contains some delightful "pop music" influences in its syncopated rhythms. Wallfisch and the RSNO under Yates play with their usual passionate advocacy. The accompanying Foulds concerto is also superb - so this is an all-around enthusiastically recommended album. I see Sainsbury has also written a VC and some solo piano works which have been recorded, but there's not much else in his catalogue - I'd certainly love to hear a symphony or two and some chamber works from his pen!


Barber - Symphony no. 1:

[asin]B06ZZ269R9[/asin]

I cannot but echo Jeffrey's (vandermolen's) strong praise for this recording of this masterwork. The orchestra featured here is comprised of all college-aged students, but you'd never guess - their ensemble is super-tight and they play with unflagging musical maturity beyond their years. Under James Ross (who I've never heard of before), they really capture the essence of this work, from the rhythmic activity of the scherzo section through the passionate lyricism of the slow section to the shatteringly defiant ending. The accompanying Thompson symphony is also superb. Great stuff!


Kokkonen - Requiem:

[asin]B0000264KZ[/asin]

My first encounter with Kokkonen's music, and a very positive one it was! This relatively compact Requiem is alternatively lyrical and darkly atmospheric - menacing and dissonant in places but never forbidding. The scoring is consistently imaginative and varied. A very fine work.


Arnold - Suite from "Homage to the Queen":

[asin]B002NLRD4A[/asin]

Recently, I've been discovering some real gems hidden in Sir Malcolm's extensive output, and this is one of them. The outer movements are thrillingly celebratory in tone, and enclose several characterful dance movements.

[Mandryka]

I doubt Rebecca Stewart would have sung the words to the song during a performance of the mass movements.  However, Mr. Erhardt is absolutely free to do what he wants with the music and for any reason.  Since the lyrics are not intelligible to me it is irrelevant what he has his singers doing.  There are other reasons why I would not use his recording as my go-to version.

But it is interesting and only proves that an early music director can at the same time make some performance decisions in a HIP manner and others purely because he thinks make more sense even if they are 180 degrees opposite.

He treats the mass like a Machaut motet. This is what he says

Certainly it would be possible to sing also the mass text in the cantus firmus, but one would have to force the words, leave away a lot of syllables  in order to place it under the notes. The chanson melody however is integer in ockeghem's mass throughout, so that we don't have to do any sophisticated bendings of the chanson text placement. If regarded purely musical, the piece is already a simultaneous performance of a folk song melody and three "sacred" voices, why not underline this with singing the two different texts? It's just the other way round than thirteenth-century-motets where to the gregorian, latin tenor a top voice with text in vernacular language was added.

What do you know about practice in C 14 France which makes you so certain that they didn't sing the motet in this motet style? I'm just a bit sceptical of your assurance here. What I'm saying is, I'd be very willing to believe that what they do is 180 degree the opposite of informed practice if I could see why you say it. I have no idea about what we know about whether it's more informed to leave out syllables of the mass text to get them under the notes, or whether it's more informed to use the song.


The relevant parts of the mass, he said, are folio 35v and following of  the  Chigi Codex. As in many sources, the superius is texted completely, the altus and bassus partially, and the tenor only with incipits.

https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Chig.C.VIII.234

(Leaving out syllables of the mass text sounds a bit like saying the Lords Prayer backwards to invoke the devil! When I was at school I had a friend who could do it!)

[San Antone]

He treats the mass like a Machaut motet. This is what he says


What do you know about practice in C 14 France which makes you so certain that they didn't sing the motet in this motet style? I'm just a bit sceptical of your assurance here. What I'm saying is, I'd be very willing to believe that what they do is 180 degree the opposite of informed practice if I could see why you say it. I have no idea about what we know about whether it's more informed to leave out syllables of the mass text to get them under the notes, or whether it's more informed to use the song.


The relevant parts of the mass, he said, are folio 35v and following of  the  Chigi Codex. As in many sources, the superius is texted completely, the altus and bassus partially, and the tenor only with incipits.

https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Chig.C.VIII.234

(Leaving out syllables of the mass text sounds a bit like saying the Lords Prayer backwards to invoke the devil! When I was at school I had a friend who could do it!)

My understanding of the poly-textual motets is that the additional texts in the vernacular were not secular but religious in nature, embellishing and adding commentary on, the Latin verse(s).  The idea of including a secular text, and not just any secular text but one celebrating a armed soldier, into the mass setting is impossible to believe during Ockeghem's time.  The exclusion of anything secular from a church service held for more than a century after Ockeghem's time.  If merely using instruments was prohibited how can you credibly suggest the text of a drinking song would be allowed?

Fitting the words of the prayers was established by tradition - if syllables were left out in the cantus firmus it would not be unheard of, since the complete text is sung in the other voices.  But I am willing to bet there is a way to sing it with the complete text.

[Mandryka]

My understanding of the poly-textual motets is that the additional texts in the vernacular were not secular but religious in nature, embellishing and adding commentary on, the Latin verse(s).  The idea of including a secular text, and not just any secular text but one celebrating a armed soldier, into the mass setting is impossible to believe during Ockeghem's time.  The exclusion of anything secular from a church service held for more than a century after Ockeghem's time.  If merely using instruments was prohibited how can you credibly suggest the text of a drinking song would be allowed?

Fitting the words of the prayers was established by tradition - if syllables were left out in the cantus firmus it would not be unheard of, since the complete text is sung in the other voices.  But I am willing to bet there is a way to sing it with the complete text.

I see what you're saying, but it now begs the question, how secular is the L'homme arme song? So for example there's this idea from the booklet of Nusmido's recording

At first glance,
it would seem odd to base a mass on such a belligerent song.
However, if one thinks of the 'armed man' as Christ, as the
Saviour, armed with the word of God and with Love, and
as the bringer of Christian faith, it takes on another meaning. The song serves as a symbol of strength and fortitude,
which non-Christians ought to fear and which ought to give
Christians courage and confidence

[vandermolen]

Atterberg - Piano Concerto:

[asin]B00005QHS1[/asin]

A hyper-romantic concerto which rather resembles a harmonically spiced-up version of the Grieg concerto (the opening is certainly inspired by that of the earlier concerto). The first movement is relentlessly passionate - almost a bit too much - but is thrilling in its effect. Repose comes in the gorgeous slow movement, which starts off simply and sparingly but works its way to a stirringly ecstatic climax. The finale is jaunty and folk-like with a magical second theme first presented by the unique combination of solo cello, bassoon, and piano. Superb performance from all concerned!


Sainsbury - Cello Concerto:

[asin]B007KGGLKU[/asin]

This steadfastly tonal and generously melodic concerto from 1999 is a real discovery. The outer movements remind me in places of the Barber cello concerto in their rhythmic lilt and bracing "outdoorsy" feel, yet tempered by a distinctly English melancholy a la Finzi which comes to the fore in the second movement. The third movement even contains some delightful "pop music" influences in its syncopated rhythms. Wallfisch and the RSNO under Yates play with their usual passionate advocacy. The accompanying Foulds concerto is also superb - so this is an all-around enthusiastically recommended album. I see Sainsbury has also written a VC and some solo piano works which have been recorded, but there's not much else in his catalogue - I'd certainly love to hear a symphony or two and some chamber works from his pen!


Barber - Symphony no. 1:

[asin]B06ZZ269R9[/asin]

I cannot but echo Jeffrey's (vandermolen's) strong praise for this recording of this masterwork. The orchestra featured here is comprised of all college-aged students, but you'd never guess - their ensemble is super-tight and they play with unflagging musical maturity beyond their years. Under James Ross (who I've never heard of before), they really capture the essence of this work, from the rhythmic activity of the scherzo section through the passionate lyricism of the slow section to the shatteringly defiant ending. The accompanying Thompson symphony is also superb. Great stuff!


Kokkonen - Requiem:

[asin]B0000264KZ[/asin]

My first encounter with Kokkonen's music, and a very positive one it was! This relatively compact Requiem is alternatively lyrical and darkly atmospheric - menacing and dissonant in places but never forbidding. The scoring is consistently imaginative and varied. A very fine work.


Arnold - Suite from "Homage to the Queen":

[asin]B002NLRD4A[/asin]

Recently, I've been discovering some real gems hidden in Sir Malcolm's extensive output, and this is one of them. The outer movements are thrillingly celebratory in tone, and enclose several characterful dance movements.

What a fabulous selection Kyle!

[San Antone]

I see what you're saying, but it now begs the question, how secular is the L'homme arme song? So for example there's this idea from the booklet of Nusmido's recording

Erhardt is going to some length to defend his decision with this speculation, unconvincingly, imo.  Over 40 masses used the song as a basis - it was a very popular tune that was familiar to the congregations of the time.  For the generally illiterate populace, using this song would render the polyphony easier to absorb.

[aligreto]

Berwald: Symphony No. 3 "Singuliere [Bjorlin]

[Mandryka]

For the generally illiterate populace, using this song would render the polyphony easier to absorb.

Well, did anyone ever say "Hey,  I could really follow that polyphony because of that tune (which by the way, was subject to all sorts of transformation as it was passed around)? " Did anyone write "to write a successful mass use a popular tune? " How much opportunity did the illiterate masses have to hear an Ockeghem mass?

[aligreto]

Wesley: Sacred Music





The Church's One Foundation: Aurelia [Choir & Organ]
Blessed Be The God and Father [Choir & Organ]
For This Mortal must put on Immortality [Choir & Organ]
O Help Us Lord: Bedford with Organ interludes
Choral Song and Fugue for Organ [Organ]