English Pastoralism

[Irons]

Interesting question. I do not agree that there is any influence from across the channel or that it was originated from a particular composer. When I hear American music I more often then not have a vision of wide open spaces, vast tracks of land, openness. I do not believe American composers set out to mirror that in their music, it just happens as that is the enjoinment they were born and brought up in. No different for British composers, who like composers world-wide are sensitive souls, some consciously others unconsciously compose music from England's green and pleasant land - ish.   

[Roasted Swan]

Sadly - I would say "pastoralism" used as a descriptive is more often meant in a negative sense rather than a positive one - music somehow watered down with all the "famous" quotes about rolling over and over in a muddy field or Lutyens "cow pat music" comment ringing in your ears. 

Personally I love it but as with all terms it is as neat as it is inaccurate and limited.  In its simplest form I guess you would argue that composers turned to the national music derived from folksong and the much older music of the church to break away from the  stiffling academism of Germanic music and conservatories.  Worth remembering that the best prize you could win as a composer at the Royal College was the "Mendelssohn prize" - first awarded to Sullivan - which allowed you to go to Leipzig to study.

Folksong/Church music provided composers with building blocks not based on standard academic/musical practice.  It was not a complete answer in and of itself but it did provide an initial breaking away point from the influence of Beethoven/Brahms and of course Wagner.  Of course RVW was privately rich and could afford the time to go and study in France or collect folksongs or edit a hymnal - all of which helped form the composer he became.  Elgar was never a pastoral composer in part because he could not afford to become one!  His influences of the British Choral Society tradition and the like sprang from a financial imperative to write music that would generate him an income.  Given that Elgar never had any formal/academic musical training by rights he should be the ultimate pastoralist.....

[vandermolen]

I have no technical knowledge of music but the 'folk song/church music' observation above rings true to me. In the case of Vaughan Williams there was an attempt to develop an original style, yet rooted in the English past and to break-away from the Brahmsian-type Germanic influence in music. The music often sounds like it's influenced by folk song even when it isn't actually based on folk song. VW and Holst went round recording folk-songs before the oral tradition died out.

[Biffo]

Not sure there is a 'perfect' example of the style but there is the ubiquitous Lark (RVW). You could try George Butterworth's A Shrophire Lad; Rhapsody for Orchestra. Sadly, Butterworth was killed in action in 1916 so we don't know how he would have developed in the brave new world of post-war music.

[relm1]

Not sure there is a 'perfect' example of the style but there is the ubiquitous Lark (RVW). You could try George Butterworth's A Shrophire Lad; Rhapsody for Orchestra. Sadly, Butterworth was killed in action in 1916 so we don't know how he would have developed in the brave new world of post-war music.

Yes, Lark is a perfect example.  It's sort of an interesting thing that in a way these composers who were of the same generation sort of all contributed to a style but RVW living the longest is most associated with it.

[Irons]

Roasted Swan and vandermolen are spot on that folk music being the driving force of English pastoralism.
I have often wondered how Delius fits into this. Lived most of his life abroad and believe he said on more then one occasion that living in England did not appeal to him. He loved nature and lived the latter part of his life in rural France so his music could echo that, and yet to my ears his music is the most quintessential English of all. One of his most popular works, "Brigg Fair" obviously has an English setting.

[Biffo]

Roasted Swan and vandermolen are spot on that folk music being the driving force of English pastoralism.
I have often wondered how Delius fits into this. Lived most of his life abroad and believe he said on more then one occasion that living in England did not appeal to him. He loved nature and lived the latter part of his life in rural France so his music could echo that, and yet to my ears his music is the most quintessential English of all. One of his most popular works, "Brigg Fair" obviously has an English setting.

I have the opposite view of Delius finding him cosmopolitan rather than English. For me he only wrote two English works - Brigg Fair and North Country Sketches. He certainly loved nature but was greatly inspired by the landscapes of France, Florida and Norway. After leaving for Florida he only briefly returned to live in England during WW1, much preferring France. Like RVW he loved the country but preferred to live in the city - as well as spells in New York and Leipzig he lived nearly 20 years in Paris.

[vandermolen]

Moeran's 'Serenade', his last orchestral work, strikes me as a possible example:

[Mirror Image]

Sadly - I would say "pastoralism" used as a descriptive is more often meant in a negative sense rather than a positive one - music somehow watered down with all the "famous" quotes about rolling over and over in a muddy field or Lutyens "cow pat music" comment ringing in your ears.

And don't forget this fun quote: "Listening to the fifth symphony of Ralph Vaughan Williams is like staring at a cow for 45 minutes." - Aaron Copland

[relm1]

Did Elgar write any piece that can be considered a candidate for "English Pastoralism"?

[Mirror Image]

Did Elgar write any piece that can be considered a candidate for "English Pastoralism"?

Sure, how about Sospiri or Dream Children?

[Irons]

I have the opposite view of Delius finding him cosmopolitan rather than English. For me he only wrote two English works - Brigg Fair and North Country Sketches. He certainly loved nature but was greatly inspired by the landscapes of France, Florida and Norway. After leaving for Florida he only briefly returned to live in England during WW1, much preferring France. Like RVW he loved the country but preferred to live in the city - as well as spells in New York and Leipzig he lived nearly 20 years in Paris.

Well put and you are probably correct. To my ears when I listen beside the works you mention, On Hearing the First Cuckoo of Spring, Summer Night on the River and In a Summer Garden I hear English music not French. That he lived most of his life abroad is the point I am attempting to make, indeed as you say "greatly inspired by the landscapes of France, Florida and Norway". We have a saying from my neck of the woods "You can take the man out of the East End but you can't take the East End out of the man".

[Biffo]

Well put and you are probably correct. To my ears when I listen beside the works you mention, On Hearing the First Cuckoo of Spring, Summer Night on the River and In a Summer Garden I hear English music not French. That he lived most of his life abroad is the point I am attempting to make, indeed as you say "greatly inspired by the landscapes of France, Florida and Norway". We have a saying from my neck of the woods "You can take the man out of the East End but you can't take the East End out of the man".

Delius grew up in the filthy industrial city of Bradford. The family home was on the very edge of the city and young Fritz and his sister used to go out riding on their ponies. The countryside they rode through isn't really like Cuckoo or Summer Night, more like Winter from North Country Sketches , even in the summer, and signs of industrialisation are never very far away.

This may be a bit feeble but to me those works don't sound English or French, just Delius.

[Irons]

This may be a bit feeble but to me those works don't sound English or French, just Delius.

Not feeble at all and Delius would love you saying that.

[vandermolen]

Did Elgar write any piece that can be considered a candidate for "English Pastoralism"?

Maybe parts of the Enigma Variations such as 'Nimrod'.

[Irons]

I think Frank Howes in his wonderful book "The English Musical Renaissance" summed up Elgar in the opening of the chapter devoted to him "Elgar was the first composer of full stature to be thrown up by English music since Purcell. He was not a direct product of the renaissance movement initiated by Parry, nor like Vaughan Williams had he dug in English soil to thrust his roots to the life-giving waters of nationalism. He is a curious figure, enigmatic from whatever aspect he is regarded........"

[vandermolen]

I think Frank Howes in his wonderful book "The English Musical Renaissance" summed up Elgar in the opening of the chapter devoted to him "Elgar was the first composer of full stature to be thrown up by English music since Purcell. He was not a direct product of the renaissance movement initiated by Parry, nor like Vaughan Williams had he dug in English soil to thrust his roots to the life-giving waters of nationalism. He is a curious figure, enigmatic from whatever aspect he is regarded........"

A great quote. Thanks.

[Roasted Swan]

Elgar never wrote any music that could be described as pastoralism.  HOWEVER, there are clearly passages influenced by the countryside be it the Woodland Interlude from Caractacus through to the late chamber works written in Sussex where Lady Elgar quoted him as saying (I paraphrase because I haven't got the right book to hand!) "The trees are singing my music.... or I am singing theirs?".  Dream Children and Sospiri have nothing to do with English pastoralism in the truest sense.

[relm1]

Elgar never wrote any music that could be described as pastoralism.  HOWEVER, there are clearly passages influenced by the countryside be it the Woodland Interlude from Caractacus through to the late chamber works written in Sussex where Lady Elgar quoted him as saying (I paraphrase because I haven't got the right book to hand!) "The trees are singing my music.... or I am singing theirs?".  Dream Children and Sospiri have nothing to do with English pastoralism in the truest sense.

This is so interesting to me.  Where did "English Pastroalistm" come from?  It's such a unique and distinctive sound but I'm confused as to its origins.

[Mirror Image]

I think the whole idea of English 'pastoralism' or whatever you want to call it is completely bogus and is something some music historian thought about putting into a book, so hence the phrase was born. In other words, it means absolutely nothing.